d30? how would you build?

[GPRSDLYT]

just as the title says. the stipulations are, 1. on somewhat of a budget, 2. medium duty off-road use, 3. strong enough to hold 36-37's. and maybe give a ballpark $ on the parts you would use. thanks in advance.

[CRASH]

Warn 30 spline inners and outers, 5 on5.5" hub kit, Tera High steer knuckle, ARB, CTM joints, some sort of across-the-front axle truss, reinforced lower control arm brackets, reinforced passenger side upper control arm bracket (if you have a non-disco axle).

If you really want it to be stout, don't go to 4.88 gears. Stick with 4.56.

The axle I just described will cost you about $2,500 - $3,000 to build, which is exactly what it would cost you to upgrade to a Dana 44, if you have the facilities to do the work yourself. The 44 would only be better in 4 respects: ability to run 4.88's and 5.13's reliably, better ball joints, better brakes and much better resistance to flexing under torque load.

Throw some WJ twin piston calipers on the 30, and teh braking would be much the same as the 44.

CRASH

[KarmirXJ]

36-37 are very questionable with a D30, in my opinion this is the the fine line where it all depends on the driver to determine whether you go home with a busted axle, at this point your front is not going to be very forgiving (one littel F**k up and kiss your 30 goodbuy)

what I would do is carry some spare axles and some ujoints and see what you break, if you start breaking things often then start thinking about building yourself a D44 or upgrade your 30 with some expensive shafts (which i think is not really worth it.)

[Beezil]

just ditch the 30....

don't even think twice....

find a suitable dana 44

building a dana 30 just doesn't seem to make any sense, and before any of you wise-craka's spout off tyhe usual "they both have 297 joints" that has little if nothing to do with why a 44 makes more sense.....

I'm always ready for this debate.......who wants to take me?

[CRASH]

I'll take you in Moab in the fall, get your K-Y ready.

CRASH

[Beezil]

I don't think KY Chris is coming, but I'll let him know you were asking for him.

[CRASH]

I really don't care who else comes, as long as I do.

CRASH

[Scott Mac.]

Only you two can hyjack a thread so fast.


Dump the 30 go for a 44.

[Beezil]

It was our thread to begin with, GPRSDLYT just started it off......

but back to topic......

go dana 44

[poppabear]

1400 bucks...

call tri-county grear and get the 30-30 kit.

warn 30 spline axles and arb locker specifically for the kit. The guy who runs the shop runs 37's on his D30 with no problem.

That is what I read anyway.

It would be the cheapest route. Beside spending 2500 bucks on a new D44 with the a locker.

[CRASH]

That doesn't include the 5 on 5.5" kit though, which is about $900.

CRASH

[GPRSDLYT]

thats ok.... its fun watching you guys go at it! but where can i find a 44 with out having to weld all the brackets on? other than buying a whole new unit from dynatrac? its just that when it comes to this stuff (axles) i can never make up my mind on what want and what i need.

[poppabear]

mmm... interesting... I don't remember reading or hearing about the kit needing or including a 5x5.5 hub conversion.


most of the drivetrain companies build/produce D44's. usually start around 1600 with 30 spline axles, open diff,and your choice of gears all the extras from there add up.

[Beezil]

welding brackets on is not that big of a deal.....really.

I find that its a bigger pain in the ass cleaning the donor axle of all its uneeded crap than it is to put new stuff on there.

RE sells a bracket kit that you could have welded on by a shop, or else, you could be REAL careful taking the mounts off of the 30.....

If you know any fabbers in your area, they could make it happen easily.

[CRASH]

It's not that the 5.5" kit is NEEDED, it's that it is a desirable kit to have that allows the use of high strength Warn alloy shafts and CTM joints.

CRASH

[Loose_Nuts_Enterprises]

I thought that part of the problem with the 30, low gears, and big tires is that the housing flexes, which creates problems with differential carriers and r&p clearance problems. Like shearing teeth etc.

Any thoughts on this Beez? You're always the first one to discourage putting lipstick on a pig.

Dan

[KarmirXJ]

the 30-30 from tri county is an exellent kit. but other than the usual ujoint failers, other internal parts break mostly due to axle flex its not really that smart to go with such strong parts and leave the axle that can fold like a tin can. unless you start trussing the 30 its not really worth it.

for the folk that read the owner of the 30 30 kit, or tri county runs this under his competition YJ and he does not run 36-37s he runs 38 TSLs (very heavy tires) Ive seen him in person at one of the comps back last year. I think it was a yellow and blue YJ. anyway. what you dont know is that he replaces those parts after mostly every competition, he has endless supply of parts for the 3030kit, you dont.

you say you are going to run mild trails... does that mean you will do mostly mall crawl and some back yard gravel roads and some ditches? Im not trying to rag on you im just trying to get a good description so we can help you to the fullest.

As beez and most of the guys here said. if you do start going into 3-3+ trails you are going to be hitting the limits of that 30, you really should think about a 44. I got my HP44 from Currie Ent. cost me 1400.00 (extra 200 for 'over axle bracket) youll spend about 1200.00 plus theyll want your D30 as a core.they do very good work. I can weld but something that important on my daily driver I cannot trust myself especially without a Jig. ( Sorry Beez I gotta disagree with you on that) yes if it was a weekend beeter, yek ya no problem.

heres a pic of something similar youll get from Currie
(if the pic dont work click HERE. (http://community.webshots.com/photo/79267869/79268664pWtBqR)

http://community.webshots.com/s/image6/6/86/64/79268664pWtBqR_fs.jpg


To rap this up If you are going to wheel you rig in most trails, you have 2 choices. Bite the bullet and buy a assembled or partly assembed D44 to save you $, or step down a knotch in tire size.

[96Classic]

Karmir, That currie axle. Does it come with Hi-steer knuckles or is that something you have to find? Thanks, Justin

[GPRSDLYT]

so what exactly did you get for 1400?

[poppabear]

thanks for the info Crash...

I say def. get the D44 if you can get one for under 1600 bucks.

[mbryson]

Originally posted by CRASH
It's not that the 5.5" kit is NEEDED, it's that it is a desirable kit to have that allows the use of high strength Warn alloy shafts and CTM joints.

CRASH

But then your weakest point is the pinion or the housing.......I'll keep breaking shafts in the D30 once or twice per year.

[KY Chris]

Originally posted by Beezil
I don't think KY Chris is coming, but I'll let him know you were asking for him.
You never know, I may show up out there. But I'm not bringing this.

http://www.cheaplubes.com/images/products/ky/KY4L.gif

[Lincoln]

I tried to buy just the housing from currie when I was building mine. As soon as I said "XJ/TJ brackets" they immediately made me start over and said I could use the 44 style knuckle. I couldn't the point of going to a 44 if I couldn't get the larger ball joints and brakes and I definately wasn't going to spend the extra cash for Warn hubs. I might have been different if I already had them.

I spent about $1500 on mine with a lockright. I went the cheap route (could be cheaper) since I kept running out of cash. No high steer, ARB, alloy shafts, or CTM's. Plan's to add them in about that order. I did replace the bearings, seals, hubs, ball joints, and axle joints.

If I didn't have a welder (at the time borrowed one) I would buy the RE brackets, get them placed, and mark everything. Then take it to a shop and have them tacked in place. Take it back home to check the fit and then have them burnt. It might cost a little more to go back twice, but it would be a lot cheaper than having to try and cut them back off after being fully welded.

If you have a welder, but don't trust your skills, you set. Just tack them in place so they don't fall off and take it down and have them welded.

It looks like Currie want's about $650 for the housing (add $50 if you go with stock style ball joints) and $450 for the TJ brackets mounted.

If you really feel the need I would try others also. There are people all over that will build you and axle. Probably even someone local and usually they are better priced and you have more input. Put a 14 bolt in the front. I haven't seen one of those in an XJ yet:
http://www.wagonermachine.com/

Later,
Lincoln

[Erik]

What Andy said. Except what about installing WJ knuckles with hi-steer drag link/tie rod? Maybe also go to WJ calipers and 12" rotors. I do have to take exception to what Beezil said about welding brackets. If your axle falls off on the trail because of crappy tack welds, then you'll never hear the end of it. I certainly wouldn't trust a job like that to just anyone, not even my dear old Mother.

[Beezil]

erik, no ones axle has EVER fallen off dring a trail ride due to tack welds........it just doesn't happen......even when good ole' mom welds.......impossible.

[Lupine]

My gawd Erik, you've agreed with me twice in the last month. Is the Ritalin finally kicking in to high gear?

CRASH

[KarmirXJ]

I would buy the RE brackets, get them placed, and mark everything. Then take it to a shop and have them tacked in place. Take it back home to check the fit and then have them burnt

I checked around everywere, TJ performance, Tri county, dynatrac, currie. None of them want to install RE brackets. they say that is not as easy as factory ones. so I was stuck with going with factory. I had RE before but I returned the once I found out nobody would do it. this is basically what I had.

HP 44 housing - 650
CJ knuckles - (extra 150 i thinK)
XJ TJ brackets - 900
Dana 30 core - (-400 brackets)
Over axle bracket for hi steer- 200


guys whatever you do, if you are going to use your rig as a daily driver please have the brackets placed on my a pro with a JIG if you have a jig go for it. stuff like this, there is no alot of room for error.

[GPRSDLYT]

karmirxj
those prices are from currie? thats 900 (-400 for a 30 core) for all the brackets (i.e. spring buckets, tb, etc.) to be welded in place. btw, why a 30?

thanks for responding everyone. i think ill try currie and see what happens. i just want to go higher with 37's but axles are a huge player so i just have to face the music and get crackin!

[Beezil]

Dan, yeah, my number one beef on the dana turdie is housing/carrier flex.....


people aren't breaking gearsets because there's a problem with numerically higher gearsets....the "small pinion" problem is misunderstood. When the housing flexes (imagine the pinion pushing the ringgear and carrier away from it) the contact pattern will move to the topland and heel of the tooth where it is weaker.....I've done many dana r&P jobs and have been "studying" how dana 30's break-in over time. Most of the 30's I've messed with have had backlash settings over .030! that's 3 or 4 times over spec. Additionally, upon removal of the bearing cap bolts, the dana 30 carriers seem to fall right out.

other reasons for disliking dana 30's:

smaller balljoints. I'm on my 3rd set of balljoints on a dana 44, and I only do occasional mall wheeling, so i don't see how I could be surviving if I had a 30.

gear ratio choices: you wanna run 35's 37's???? too bad you can't run 5.13's or 5.38's in a 30.

true high steer: dana 44 anyone?

hubs: nuff said

the 44 is inherently stronger, center section, tubes, and outers.

the above should keep the "yeah but they have the same joints" crowd silent.....

I'm hoping.

[JnJ]

Originally posted by Beezil
Dan, yeah, my number one beef on the dana turdie is housing/carrier flex.....


people aren't breaking gearsets because there's a problem with numerically higher gearsets....the "small pinion" problem is misunderstood. When the housing flexes (imagine the pinion pushing the ringgear and carrier away from it) the contact pattern will move to the topland and heel of the tooth where it is weaker.....I've done many dana r&P jobs and have been "studying" how dana 30's break-in over time. Most of the 30's I've messed with have had backlash settings over .030! that's 3 or 4 times over spec. Additionally, upon removal of the bearing cap bolts, the dana 30 carriers seem to fall right out.

other reasons for disliking dana 30's:

smaller balljoints. I'm on my 3rd set of balljoints on a dana 44, and I only do occasional mall wheeling, so i don't see how I could be surviving if I had a 30.

gear ratio choices: you wanna run 35's 37's???? too bad you can't run 5.13's or 5.38's in a 30.

true high steer: dana 44 anyone?

hubs: nuff said

the 44 is inherently stronger, center section, tubes, and outers.

the above should keep the "yeah but they have the same joints" crowd silent.....

I'm hoping.
Ya, but the u-joints are the same! :flipoff2: hahahaha :D

[CRASH]

Beez,

In ananlyzing 30 ball joints, they are not as bad as I had first imagined. The wide sspacing of the joints (compared to a 44) makes the upper ball joint size less of an issue.

The thing that destroys 44 ball joints is high steer arms. I would imagin that a set of Tera or WJ knuckles might have the same effect on 30 ball joints as well.

In conclusion, building a 30 really is polishing a turd, but I have seen them work well with up to 35 inch tires, even in the deep rocks of JV (ask Paul Sinclair).

CRASH

[Scott Mac.]

Originally posted by Beezil


other reasons for disliking dana 30's:

smaller balljoints. I'm on my 3rd set of balljoints on a dana 44, and I only do occasional mall wheeling, so i don't see how I could be surviving if I had a 30.




I'm on my stock ball joints and I don't see how you've done more, extreme wheelin' since your roll than I have.

Although I do agree with you. I will be going to a 44 before I get my 35s.

[Beezil]

scott, you think I CRAWL parking blocks?

hell no!

I ram the mthrfkrs.

[Scott Mac.]

There are parking blocks in Chicago?

You may be the king of parallel parking but you don't know squat about angle parking.

[Lincoln]

Beezil didn't say we couldn't metion that the rev 30 r&p is just as strong as a standard 44 in in the front. :laugh:

JIG, WTF is that? Tack on the lowers then put the axle under there and move crap around until the uppers fit. It's not rocket science. What did Jeff use to build his jig. Didn't he just build it using his 30 for a layout?

I raised the lowers even with the tube and the uppers about 1". I also moved it forward about 1". The only problems I had were the track bar making contact with the front of the RE bracket and looking tonight it appears something may be making contact with the oil pan. It's been a year now so maybe the bumpstops are breaking in.

[Paul S]

Originally posted by Beezil
Dan, yeah, my number one beef on the dana turdie is housing/carrier flex.....


people aren't breaking gearsets because there's a problem with numerically higher gearsets....the "small pinion" problem is misunderstood. When the housing flexes (imagine the pinion pushing the ringgear and carrier away from it) the contact pattern will move to the topland and heel of the tooth where it is weaker.....I've done many dana r&P jobs and have been "studying" how dana 30's break-in over time. Most of the 30's I've messed with have had backlash settings over .030! that's 3 or 4 times over spec. Additionally, upon removal of the bearing cap bolts, the dana 30 carriers seem to fall right out.

other reasons for disliking dana 30's:

smaller balljoints. I'm on my 3rd set of balljoints on a dana 44, and I only do occasional mall wheeling, so i don't see how I could be surviving if I had a 30.

gear ratio choices: you wanna run 35's 37's???? too bad you can't run 5.13's or 5.38's in a 30.

true high steer: dana 44 anyone?

hubs: nuff said

the 44 is inherently stronger, center section, tubes, and outers.

the above should keep the "yeah but they have the same joints" crowd silent.....

I'm hoping.

Beezil, your usual objectivity is lost on the D30.
I've got 7 years & 108,000 miles on my D30 with ARB. Here's what I've found:
Housing flex can be an issue, but if preload is setup properly it probably never will be. My cylinder cap bolts broke once, & there was no other damage done. I can live with that. I've had no other problems.
Ball joints are a non-issue, I don't know why folks keep bringing this into it. I replaced mine at 100,000 miles when I did the WJ knuckle conversion, & the old ones I took out were still fine.
Gear ratio: can't argue there, but with an AX15 I would not want more than 4.56's, & most guys I know with autos are running 4.56's - 4.88's & are pretty happy with them.
True high steer: With WJ knuckles I can run an inverted T on top of my upper knuckles as Andy & Richard have done on their 44's, or I can go crossover with the TR on top of the bottom knuckles & the DL on top of the top knuckle as you have done. Steering choices are no longer a benefit of going to a 44.
Hubs: I've got Warn 5 on 5.5", nuff said.
The 44 is a stronger housing, but it comes at a cost. More weight & less ground clearance.
You left out brakes, which is another popular D30 myth. With WJ dual piston calipers & 12" rotors, it could be argued that the 30 has better brakes.
You won't save any money building this 30, but at the end of the day you will have a front axle that could just about go head to head with an HP44 on pros & cons, & you couldn't even touch this axle with an LP anything.
To put even more perspective on this. Last year I upgraded from a rear 44 to a shaved HP9, if I HAD to do another axle upgrade it would be from my HP9 to a Tera 60. The 30 isn't going anywhere, although I may cut everything off it & rebuild it in order to run a full length trackbar.
Paul

[Lupine]

I hate having a short track bar.

I think it cost me the victory coming back from Sledgehammer in May........

How are we going to get it by that spring? coilover?

CRASH

[Paul S]

Originally posted by Lupine
I hate having a short track bar.

I think it cost me the victory coming back from Sledgehammer in May........

How are we going to get it by that spring? coilover?

CRASH
Simply cut off the coil spring mounts & (near) center them on the axle. There's more to it of course, but that's the idea. Having built your 44 from scratch, do you see any problems with this?
Paul

[Roanoke XJ]

Not to change the subject, but would it be worth converting a disco Dana 44 to a non-disco? Is it any weaker/undesirable other than the disco?

[CRASH]

As in a fullsize Dodge disco 44, or a wagoneer disco 44?

Paul, the only problem might be getting the coils to sit at the correct angle. If you moved your axle forward an inch, you could then probably get away with moving the coild back and center them on the axle tube.

CRASH