REAR 1/4 Elliptical suspensions for XJ's

Just getting some ideas.....been searchin my ass off on POR, and have seen lotsa ideas, and have gotten info on what everyone has been using for springs.....

I have a good idea for a height adjustable spring mount, that should help me get ride height dialed in, and I have a good idea on how i wanna run my links, which i will be adding to the 4-link thread for review.....I guess I'm just trying to clarify an XJ -specific strategy in terms of which donor springs to use, how long they should be and how to figure out a "shackle' or swivel mount solution.....

any thoughts would be helpful....

I think you may be a link short of a full chain.....but, I did find this:

http://www.jeepaholics.com/tech/quarterellip/

Hope it helps.

Rev

yep, found that during the search.....thanks.

Hey Beez.

I run a detached quarter eliptic rear on mine.
For the spring pack you can use any 2 1/2" wide leaves, including the ones on there right now. You'll just have to stack until you get the spring rate you want. I'd estimate you'll need between 9 and 13 but that too can depend on the length. The longer you go, the more you'll need.
I use 9 or 10 leaves that came from CJs, Wranglers and my Cherokee.
I know people that are running as many as 15 leaves too.

My pack rides in a hinged arm. For the hinge point I used a poly spring bushing.

For height adjustment I have the airbag but I've seen people use a simple jack screw arrangement also.

Since mine is detached, the leaf spring rides on a bronze roller on the axle. Most of my friends here run attached and use a shackle and swivel combo at the axle. Both work fine.

c-rok, I'd love to see pics if you are willing to share....

I was thinking on using my current springs laying around, but searching revealed that most folks seem to like 3" wide springs.....

folks are using all sorts of springs from 1/2 ton through 3/4 up to 1-ton, all sorts of different lengths, a common one seems to be ford f 250 leafs, the 57' ones IIRC.......how long are yours from eye to pin? did you fab up a swiveling mount right in front of the axle tube? how much height do you have from the spring eye to the centerline of the tube itself?

thanks

I can try to post some pics.... but I usually struggle with that.
I can e-mail you some.

Send me an e-mail at [email protected] and I'll get some back to you. Along with some CAD drawings of the set-up. Don't have any CAD of the uniframe (since I saw you asking in the other post) but what I do have may be useful to you.

My pack is rearward mounted, not forward like most rock crawler set-ups. Rather than allow the pack to swivel, I actually fabed a pretty simple restraining system to hold the pack in place as the axle articluates and puts a twisting force on it. If you go the jack screww route, the jack screw mount should solve that part for you.

I wouldn't agree with "most people" here in AZ. I would say here of the dozen or two people that I know that are running (or have run) quarter elip, 90some% are using 2 1/2" wide Wrangler/CJ combo springs. If for no other reason than they're usually modifying a Wrangler or CJ and have those springs available.

I'll have to make measurements for the other questions.

Didn't forget about that.... but I didn't remember either.:doh:

There's actually a pretty good pic of the leaf pack arm and roller too.
http://www.4wdandsportutility.com/features/03024wd_crok/

Here's the pics:





and thanks to Ted Z, da bozo C-ROK can post a pic :dunce:

Edit:
.....or maybe not. All I see is Red Xs.
The pains of being an idiot are sometimes nearly to great to bear :bawl:

here's the link to the webshots album:
http://community.webshots.com/scripts/editPhotos.fcgi?action=viewall&albumID=80159848

I'm also going to be going with 1/4 elliptical maybe next year. I think these springs would be awesome, I dont know about the shackles but they look cool.

http://www.bluetorchfab.com/suspension.htm

I think I am deciding to use my existing springs.....

now, I have some ideas on how to make frame brackets, so they are adjustable enough to tune on the fly. I'm thinking adjustable length vertical links, as well as variable angle spring brackets....

I can't decide if I should mount the spring brackets under the framerail, inboard, or outboard........

I can't decide how long my main spring should be, and if it matters where I position it in relation to the four link........

looks likea scale drawing or model is necessary.

Well, since you're going to be using basically 1/2 of a spring pack you'll need to limit it's uptravel to give you a decent ride height. C-Rok uses airbags which is probably the best way to go and will allow you to mount the leafs really anywhere, but if you're not using bags then I'd mount them under the frame rail. You're going to need the support to build a uptravel limiting stop. As to where to mount the main leaf, it's pretty much gotta go on the bottom with the arch facing down, otherwise you'll have no droop.

I think you'd loose ground clearance if you mounted the spring under the frame. Jimbo, you know me, I won't do anything that reduces ground clearance. The way our springs are mounted on the side of the frame is good, because we can slide on the frame until the tire can hit the rock or ledge, or at least the bottom of the spring pack. I just have one cocky thing to say to anyone who mounts their springs (or long arms) beneath the frame rail......follow me.

I was thinking about what could be the possible benefits of a rear 1/4 eliptic spring setup on an XJ. One could be tuning for a great ride, but I wouldn't want to loose weight carrying capacity. It would increase clearance behind the tire, no spring or shackle to hit, and that could be nice, although I've never seen anyone get hung up sliding off of their spring or shackle. I guess it could increase articulation, but who needs that, and it could very well add some undesirable rear steer depending on how well the rear links were set up.

Beez, for me, it would be easier to think about potential designs if the intended goal was clear. Are you working on plans for a new rig, or considering changes to your current one? What are you hoping to gain? I could see myself trying some form of rear 1/4 eliptic suspension down the road, but for now I'm trying to dial in my MJ leaves.

Beez, I think you should go with coils.

I'm planning on putting mine on the outside of the framerail. If I have enough clearance with the axle width I want, that's my ideal location.

Otherwise, I'll probably be cutting up the framerail in the back and disposing of it improperly. May be time to do some funky underneath tube work.

Richard, I don't think you have to lose the weight carrying cababilities. If you can tune a set of 1/2 elliptic leafs, you can do 1/4. My suspension will have an airbag assist, but my leafs will run in a permanently mounted frame box and a shackeled axle end.

I'm going to try my hand with a set of 1 ton springs and play with them. I think they'll give good tire dropping resistence (rebound) with very respectable articulation. My mixture will probably end up a mix of 1 & 3/4 ton though.

Sean

One Coil,

how long do you think your main leaf will be from eye to shackle?

I'm seeing conflicting info on my searches.....

also, is there any strategy on placement of the spring pack frame mount? I figure a shackle of sorts at the axle end will take care of any "misalignment" between the links and springs.

goatkiddie,

I am trying to solve the problem of boredom. I'm also trying to design a rear suspension that allows for ample lift height that doesn't bully the rest of the rig into same attitude as the rear axle, and at the same time can sidehill like a champ, which is why I'd never go to coils.....I'm trying to get rid of my "stiff cricket" and Hagen will have to think of a different name in moab. Weight carrying ability is not a concern. I dont like to haul a bunch of crap in my rig.....as long as Hinkley has his welder nearby, that's all the support I need.....Actually, my whole problem is that the back of my rig is too light!!!

That's why I'm kinda in a debate over which springs to use.....OneSkippy wants to use 3/4 and 1 ton springs, and I'm ready to experiment with xj lift springs......

Some guys like to finish their projects.

Other guys are never satisfied with their end products and like to start anew

Goatman said:

I just have one cocky thing to say to anyone who mounts their springs (or long arms) beneath the frame rail......follow me.

Click to expand...

Ummm, I have both my front long arms and my rear quarter eliptic pack mounted under the frame.

I'm pretty sure I could hang with just about anyone who desires to keep the paint on their vehicle.:angel:

The quarter elip is a good set-up..... and so are coils... and I'm pretty fond of my air bags. I wheel with a lot of guys that are simple SOA leaves and they do just fine too. I don't believe there is a ONE right answer.

Long arm suspension systems are very effective and can allow for great travel.
Quarter elips can allow for more travel than anything else out there and they could end up costing you about 1/10 of what long travel coil-overs would cost.

Articulation isn't everything for sure, but in general keeping your tires on the ground is better than not.

Yeah, you guys are right. I think Seq. has put a curse on me and turned me into a moron. I didn't mean to mount the leafs directly under the frame with a couple ubolts or something, but the 1/4 elliptical pack is going to be longer than 1/2 the stock length pack. Why not recess the leaf pack into the framerail? I like the Bluetorch leafs because they're built specifically as 1/4 elliptic springs and have lots of leafs, I couldn't bring myself to hack my Nationals anyway.

vintage, you wierdo......I hope your next avatar isn;t a picture of my wife!

crok,

when i said "I wouldn't do coils" I meant coils, ya know, like coils from a tj or something......coil-OVERS is a whole different ballgame, which i would love to do someday on a buggy.....but not regular coils on an xj.......Not that I have seen many in order to formulate an educated opinion on the matter, but the ones I've seen have crazy body roll........

I think a tuneable 1/4 elip with 4-link is a better option than both coils and high-arch 1/2elip.....

Before I put a sway bar on my rear axle, I used to get some pretty silly body roll too. Quarter eliptic in and of itself is not a solution to body roll.

You can design to help reduce it by locating the leaf packs as far outboard as possible but I'm not sure you can reduce it enough to avoid a sway bar.

Just from my experience alone, the guys with long travel, high articulating suspensions that DON'T use a sway bar, all have some pretty big body roll.

BTW, I didn't notice any loss of articulation at all when I put my sway bar on. But it did do wonders for controlling body roll around corners on the street and help prevent the body from kinda 'flopping' over on off camber obstacles.

Nope Beez, I dont have any pics of her that I could post here legally.........hehe jk jk jk.

C-Rok, what kind of rear swaybar are you running? Currie?

I actually run the stock Cherokee rear sway but modified to work off of my lower links. The standard Currie Anti-Rock is too short for my frame width.

The stock rear seems to work good. It's only about 3/4" dia and has a pretty low rate. The low rate coupled with mounting it on the link gives just enough resistance to control sway and roll but doesn't affect the articulation at all.

beezhead,

I can dig the boredom thing, I just always have too much to do to get bored. I need to quit messing with all this XJ club baloney so I can really spend some time on my Jeep. I also have a stiffer ride since the cut down, so I'm trying the longer leaves. I'm not afraid of lift blocks, with a good traction bar, so I don't deal with high arch springs. Even with 8" of lift, my springs are pretty flat, bend backwards easily, and have tons of droop.

I'd still like to play with air bags somehow, and using them along with a 1/4 eliptic design could be a good way to go. As far as your project, I'd mount the leaves along side the frame rail, a little forward of the current front spring mount. It can't be too difficult to come up with a good mounting system. You may need a good bumpstop system. I don't know because I've never run them, but it looks to me that there would be less spring resistance on the 1/4's when nearing full compression than there would be on 1/2's. This could be more of an issue with our body/fender configuration than it would be on more of a buggy type rig.

crok, (I like that)

You need to get out and wheel with us, we have a fun group of XJ wackos. I'm sure we'll be in JV in Nov sometime. We have a lot of fun ragging on each other, and I'm the resident naysayer of long arm suspensions. Your rear springs are behind the axle, so that doesn't limit much because you can slide right off of them. On your fronts, if the arms are mounted below the frame, I'm sure I could get a pic or two of you hung up on them.....I have them on everyone else.

Of course, the 38's help, and so would jacking the airbags all the way up to increase your breakover angle. Still, it's getting hung up that stops us most of the time, not a lack of traction. I sort of have a ground clearance fettish.....