Fargin' STOOPID corporate policies...

[Yucca-Man]

Grrrrrrr...

[Rant ON] - While I'm finishing college and shotgunning apps all across Colorado I'm making slave wage at Slaveway...errrr...Safeway. While I needed the money when they hired me, I've learned pretty quickly that my work ethic is completely incompatible with theirs, and it's VERY likely that I'll be fired when I go in tomorrow to get my pittance...errr..paycheck.

You see, every job (military and civilian) that I've ever held had one simple principle attached that also happened to agree with my upbringing: Finish your job, and don't pass the buck on to the next guy. It's real simple, and I've done a good job of making sure I get 'er done in the past, but the friggin' geniuses that make the schedules put me in for an 8-hour closing shift and then wrote me up for $1.26 of OT...more than likely I was helping a customer or simply making sure the place was spotless before I left. I found out about that writeup because my manager left the paperwork in the middle of the department for all my co-workers to see and told someone else to "have Jim sign that" ...

They wrote me up again last night for cleaning the hell out of the place yet again - despite being understaffed and working alone for a few hours. 90 minutes of OT that time, so while it was a bit more, it was also something that I viewed as my job to clean all the dishes, cases, floors, etc before leaving. While everyone else in the department can leave on time and pass the buck to the rest of the crew I don't have that option; if I left dirty dishes and unmopped floors I'd get written up anyway, and the morning crew would have to finish MY job as well as do theirs. We'll see what happens, cuz tonight that's exactly what I did - my manager left a big "NOBODY GETS TO USE ANY OVERTIME" note on the wall (directed at me, of course) so I said F em and I left everything as it was when I was supposed to leave... That goes totally against everything I have learned and believe in, and so I'll probably lose my job? WTF??

How the heell do these companies actually think they are helping employee morale by doing this? Disciplinary action for doing your job? I had one guy go out of his way to help us a few months ago and I learned that there is NO official way to thank someone for going above and beyond their duties, but there are a thousand ways you can get in trouble. Crap, I hate this place...hope I get hired soon. [Rant OFF] [Beer ON]

[Captain Ron]

One word, management.

Peter Drucker would frown.

I bet if the COM ran your store for a week, you'd be impressed. If not, it's not worth working there anyways. Some middle managers are better than others, but generally, the principals of "Comfort Level" and the "Peter Principle" rule the day.

Good luck tomorrow. Use common sense reasoning, and let the manager decide what's the important factor, if you think it's worth it. :D

--ron

[ECKSJAY]

Grrrrrrr...

[Rant ON] - While I'm finishing college and shotgunning apps all across Colorado I'm making slave wage at Slaveway...errrr...Safeway. While I needed the money when they hired me, I've learned pretty quickly that my work ethic is completely incompatible with theirs, and it's VERY likely that I'll be fired when I go in tomorrow to get my pittance...errr..paycheck.

You see, every job (military and civilian) that I've ever held had one simple principle attached that also happened to agree with my upbringing: Finish your job, and don't pass the buck on to the next guy. It's real simple, and I've done a good job of making sure I get 'er done in the past, but the friggin' geniuses that make the schedules put me in for an 8-hour closing shift and then wrote me up for $1.26 of OT...more than likely I was helping a customer or simply making sure the place was spotless before I left. I found out about that writeup because my manager left the paperwork in the middle of the department for all my co-workers to see and told someone else to "have Jim sign that" ...

They wrote me up again last night for cleaning the hell out of the place yet again - despite being understaffed and working alone for a few hours. 90 minutes of OT that time, so while it was a bit more, it was also something that I viewed as my job to clean all the dishes, cases, floors, etc before leaving. While everyone else in the department can leave on time and pass the buck to the rest of the crew I don't have that option; if I left dirty dishes and unmopped floors I'd get written up anyway, and the morning crew would have to finish MY job as well as do theirs. We'll see what happens, cuz tonight that's exactly what I did - my manager left a big "NOBODY GETS TO USE ANY OVERTIME" note on the wall (directed at me, of course) so I said F em and I left everything as it was when I was supposed to leave... That goes totally against everything I have learned and believe in, and so I'll probably lose my job? WTF??

How the heell do these companies actually think they are helping employee morale by doing this? Disciplinary action for doing your job? I had one guy go out of his way to help us a few months ago and I learned that there is NO official way to thank someone for going above and beyond their duties, but there are a thousand ways you can get in trouble. Crap, I hate this place...hope I get hired soon. [Rant OFF] [Beer ON]


What does your shop steward say about all this?

[Yucca-Man]

COM?

Yeah, the store has 'issues' but I've learned that at least part of it is a local problem and not corporate policy. Then again, part of the reason I worked super-late last night was to get the friggin' place ready for a VIP dog-n-pony show today. I didn't get a word of thanks for making the place clean enough to eat off, but instead I got that BS mega-note about OT. WTF ever happened to the "Praise in public, berate in private" principle?

On that note, WTF is wrong with Colorado lawmakers that prevents you from buying beer after midnight, and only 3.2 beer in the grocery? Is it because we're THAT close to Utah? Dammit...

Edited to add: As much as I have no use for unions, I'm going to find out who my steward is, first thing tomorrow...

[ECKSJAY]

Edited to add: As much as I have no use for unions, I'm going to find out who my steward is, first thing tomorrow...

Get the UFCW involved.

Up here they were heavyweights and wouldn't put up with that kind of crap.

I LOVED when my rep came in to the store every month to 'check up' on us. AKA: Pull us off the floor and the manager couldn't touch us no matter what... And we'd pay our dues right there on the spot. I loved my reps. "Hey Phil, how's it goin? Everyone treating you guys alright? You know I'll take your call 24hrs a day."

They stood up to some of that similar stuff you described when my brother was being taken advantage of. His first job, he's 17 years old, and they were dicking him around. I called our rep (bro worked at another store) and told him what was up. Next day they investigated and found out that manager was a POS. Safeway canned his ass and paid my brother in SEVERAL hours of OT and different rate (because he was scheduled as a Helper Clerk while still on COurtesy pay grade). I have no use for unions either, but they have their place.

[dmillion]

I've learned pretty quickly that my work ethic is completely incompatible with theirs...

Then it will benefit both you and your employer to find a different place to work.

Disciplinary action for doing your job?

Uhh... No. Disciplinary action for working overtime when you were not authorized to do so. If you want to work extra hours off the clock, I'm sure they wouldn't mind. They don't want to pay overtime, though, and that is perfectly reasonable. The manager is responsible for staying within his budget and unauthorized overtime can play hell with that. Besides which, you don't get to define what your job is, your boss does, and he has obviously decided that it does not include working overtime. You need to either respect that or find other employment (which it sounds like you're doing).

I hope you don't take this wrong. I certainly don't mean to offend, but it seems to me like you're expecting to be able to define for yourself what your job is and what your hours should be. That may work in some kinds of jobs, but not the kind you have right now. As you observed right up front, if your work ethic is incompatible with your employer, you need to find another job.

Good luck.

[WrenchMonkey]

Yep, what dmillion said.

It can be frustrating as hell when you first figure it out, but "going above and beyond" is not always rewarded, and is sometimes actually punished, either directly or indirectly.

Your best bet is to find out what the boss actually expects you to do, how he expects you to do it in the time you've got, and do it.

And keep mass-mailing those resumes...

Best of luck,
Robert

[Fergie]

Well, never work for a bureaucracy then.

When I started as a Project Manager as the University, the boss gave me a job to do. I went and finished it, and gave him an update. He reacted by telling me "Don't work so hard, things don't move that fast around here."

Learned real quick to finish a job, put it on my desk, and surf the net until they needed it.

I hate the entire mentlity of "Not my problem", "CYA" and the "I'm just here to get a pension."

Now, working for Hensel Phelps is awesome. Its all about getting the job done right, the first time, no matter what. I love it.

DMillion- I really hope you dont manage anyone other than yourself.

Fergie

[dmillion]

I never said this was my attitude in my job, and I never said this is the way I would treat my employees. I work a skilled, salaried job. Sounds to me like Yucca has mostly worked salaried jobs before. There is a very, VERY big difference between a job like that and an hourly, unskilled job like Yucca has right now. In an hourly, unskilled job the boss has every right to say, "this is how many hours I want you to work each week and NO MORE!"

The bottom line, though--hourly or salaried--is that your job (or mine, or anyone else's) is not what YOU think it is or what YOU want it to be; it is what your BOSS thinks it is. If you don't make your boss happy then you're going to have problems. That's just the way the world works. You can complain about how bad your boss is, or about how he doesn't understand what your job "really" is, or what your job "should" be, but in the end if you don't make him happy then you're going to have problems. If you and he have different ideas about what your job is then you either need to find a way to get him fired (and hope like hell that his replacement isn't worse!) or find yourself another job.

[Fergie]

Well, from the limited info that Yucca gave us, the boss is out of line.

The boss needs to layout, AHEAD of time, that overtime is unaccepted, and to leave at 8 hours. If the boss has not done this, then he has no place to write him up. If he has laid it out that OT is NFG, then Yucca need to leave at 8 hours.

Also, the way the boss handled the situation is piss poor. He needs to sit down, and council his employees, in private, and not make a singular issue available for all to see. This puts the employee in a bad situation, and shows the poor management of the manager.

I've worked salaried and hourly jobs, and understand the dynamics of each, but I also know what good leadership is, as I have had good superiors, and I knwo what not to do from the crappy ones.

Fergie

[dmillion]

The boss needs to layout, AHEAD of time, that overtime is unaccepted... Also, the way the boss handled the situation is piss poor.

I agree completely. Maybe we interpreted the original post differently, but it sounded to me like Yucca had been told ahead of time when to end his shift. In any case, I don't think the boss handled this the right way, and I don't think it sounds like this boss is a very good leader.

[Beej]

I have to agree with everyone, including Jim. The manager is doing a poor job of management, which is pretty common actually. Many times a manager gets the job from seniority and then turn around and does the exact same crap that was done to him/her on his/her way up the totem pole. Its called the corporate monkey principle. I've been many times on both sides of the fence. I can see both points of view. Jim's for wanting to do an excellent, thorough job, and the manager's for having to keep to the established standards of work and within the corporate guidelines. The manager is right to correct Jim for making a command decision on his own, no matter how stupid it sounds, just due to the chain of command. He did this with little to no tact however, which only shows his lack of ability to truly manage people. He's now offended his strongest worker, and broken his desire to do well in the company. Were it me, I would have talked to Jim privately about keeping within the guidelines, and at the same time publicly lauded him for his obviously strong work ethic and get-er-done attitude. In fact if it were me, I would recognize the strong work ethic and see about giving him more responsiblity since he can obviously handle it. The manager likely has a large workforce of people who hate him behind his back and he is only providing his company with a disservice by doing so. Jim, stick this out and be the better man. The manager might know dick all, but he's the boss right now and he's the one who can give you the good reference in the future. Explain to him why you did what you did, and accept his point of view no matter what. If you get back to work smiling and still working hard, but within his guidelines, chances are, he may learn that you can take it and still keep going strong. If it doesn't sink in, fine, let it go, if it does, well you've got yourself a good reference in the future. At the same time, keep firing the applications and it will come around eventually...
Good luck in there...

[Ludakris]

People are promoted to thier level of incompetance.


Their are too many people in management positions who have no business being there..

[themud]

Yucca I totally understand your position as I just left 8 years of grocery retail, you dont seem to understand how it works so let me help...You are a number they dont care, they dont have to nor want to care about you...Management is filled with the biggest idiots out there especially (sp) retail management they are paid not to care and to give lip service to the customers and even more so to the employees...

Your job is simple do what they tell you if they say leave after 8 hours then leave, I like you have a work ethic and we both dont belong in any sort of business involving retail work as the ethics for those business left a long time ago...You can stay as long as you can say ok sure to the boss do and not give a rats #@!ss about the customers or their problems do what you can then leave its hard to learn to be that way but welcome to America and the almighty dollar it rules all(especially jeeps)..

In retail the bottom line is profit first everthing including employees a distant second..

[themud]

People are promoted to thier level of incompetance.


Their are too many people in ACCOUNTANTS in management positions who have no business being there..

Fixed it for ya...thank goodness people skills are no longer required when dealing with people or all those managers would be screwed..

[Beej]

In all corporate business the bottom line is profit first everthing including employees a distant second..Fixed it for you...

[5-90]

And people wonder why I'm not in retail (or even sales!) anymore...

I wasted three years behind the counter at Kragen's trying to keep the wheelbarrow full. I say "wasted" - while I could build engines out of unmarked loose parts, I got put on the damn cash register most of the time (not only a waste of talent, but I've got a bad knee. If I have to stay in place for more than an hour without something to sit on to take my weight off my right knee, it locks up and I can't walk...)

Oh - Teamsters Local 576. Shop Steward, stores 223, 240, and 1098. Been around a while (and three years there was real seniority outside of management!)

When I was on the counter, I drew customers like me. The people who stocked up on staple supplies (fluids, hose clamps, bulk stuff, and anything you go thru a lot of,) they kept loads of RTV and sealants around, and even had bulk/flat gasket sheeting (like me.)

One of the biggest things that got shoved down our throats was "related sales" - you sell a water pump, the system kept track of whether you sold a thermostat, coolant, RTV, hoses, what-have-you. (The other thing was "tag" - your average dollars per sale.)

Most of my managers refused to believe - even after seeing me work - that my regular customer base (the guys that followed me from store to store) simply did not support increasing my "related sales" because they kept that kind of thing on hand. Never mind that I also had the third-highest tag in the district - my "relates" were among the worst, so that was what I got chewed on for.

This was flak I was getting from auto parts store managers who did not know how many head gaskets you put on a Small Block Chevvy (no joke!)

This was managers that did not understand that, when I say, "I need time off for a Contract meeting," this was not negotiable, nor was it a topc for discussion.

These were people that did not realise that, when I spent time with a regular (and neglecting no-one else) to help them get a swale of prices, I'd invariably bring in at least 80% of it (and some of these lists ran into the thousands.)

These people did not understand that I had a knack for finding odd things, and that made LOADS of money! Think a piston assembly for a Le Roi compressor engine - I sold nine (all I could find on short notice) for about $150 EACH. Took me two days to track them down - but it was time well spent.

These were also people who did not understand that they simply weren't paying us enough to do 14 hours' work in 8, and that overtime was all but required to get things done.

The worst case was my manager at store 223 (Milpitas, CA.) One night - a Wednesday, if you can picture this - there were two of us in the store - myself and the "third key" - Assistant Manager (non-exempt, but ineligible for stewardship.) Everyone was gone by 1730, and Wednesdays were usually slow as all get-out. Kinda night you want to drill a hole in your head to let the boredom out, and you can take the time to catch up on all the stuff you didn't get done to now (usually left over from Friday and Saturday.)

Starting at 1745, people were lined up right out the front door, and all three lines were going crazy. No idea why - it just happened. Oh - did I mention that there were only two of us working, and that the two counters were about 20 yards apart? Anything that needed to go back and forth went via "Air Mail" - we sure couldn't move.

The odd part was that, for that one night, no-one minded waiting in line...

Store closes at 2100. I didn't get keys to lock the door (and Allen sure couldn't bring them to me!) until 2230. We still had about 30 people waiting. We were both on OT at 2130.

We finally got the last guy out at 2345. We counted the money and LEFT - no sweeping, no stocking, no "front and face" - we were just too damn tired. From 1745-2345, we brought in about $28K - what a night! Allen's got the next day off, I'm on the midday shift.

The following morning (at the positively unholy hour of 0700!) we get called - first him, then me. The manager was bitching about the condition of the store, and why didn't Allen do "cash strips" every $400 or so like he was supposed to? Allen's answer was, "Don't make me come in to-day, you'll regret it." My answer was "Don't be there when I come in to-day, you'll regret it."

Before I went to work, I called the District Manager and asked him to be there about the time I got in...

So I show up, and Esther (the manager) is already gunning for me. Randy (DM) is already there, and she thinks he's going after me as well.

I get to the office, and she starts in on me. I answer the best way I can - I clamp my hand over her lower face - only way I can get a word in edgewise.

"Did you see last night's paperwork?" (She had.)
"Did Randy see last night's paperwork?" (he had not.)
"Show it to him." (She did.)

Randy told me to go ahead and get to work, and to take the next day off w/pay for extraordinary service. He called Allen and gave him the same deal (gotta give him credit for that.) He'd have given me that day off, but I was already there and clocked in - he'd have had to pay me the four-hour callup anyhow.

I went out to work, and listened (with half an ear and great satisfaction) to Esther getting a new orifice at about Mach Two. I wish things like that would happen more often - it's a matter of being right at the right time.

I'd not have brought that up, but I did it to point up the cupidity of retail management (which is barely either,) and that you sometimes have to skip up the chain to get somewhere. I don't like doing it that way, but civilians don't understand direct dealing sometimes, and it's always easier to drop a turd on someone from a great height than to let one bubble up from below...

5-90

[Captain Ron]

COM, COO, CFOM, Chief of Operations.

Biz 101:

The sole and only purpose of a business is to turn a profit. That sentence comes right before revenue leads expenses. You don't need to know anything else.

--ron

[dmillion]

The sole and only purpose of a business is to turn a profit.

And that's exactly the way it SHOULD be!

I always get a big laugh out of employees, customers, whoever, who think that THEY should come before profits in the company's list of priorities.

NEWS FLASH!!! If profits don't come first then the company goes out of business, all the employees lose their jobs, and all of the customers have to find somewhere else to shop. Not only that, but with that company out of business, now there's less competition for both employees AND for customers, and so other companies can pay employees less and charge customers more!

See all the nice things that happen when profits DON'T come first?

[Beej]

And that's exactly the way it SHOULD be!

I always get a big laugh out of employees, customers, whoever, who think that THEY should come before profits in the company's list of priorities.

NEWS FLASH!!! If profits don't come first then the company goes out of business, all the employees lose their jobs, and all of the customers have to find somewhere else to shop. Not only that, but with that company out of business, now there's less competition for both employees AND for customers, and so other companies can pay employees less and charge customers more!

See all the nice things that happen when profits DON'T come first?Wrong. Dead wrong...
But to give you credit, this is exactly the kind of tripe they feed management trainees...

[Darky]

The way we're taught at Best Buy is take care of the customer first and the money will follow. We had a guy who lives in Vail (for non-Tucsonans, that's an hour's drive from my store) who was just passing through and stopped in our store. He was lookin at the huge screen TVs. He received such good service from one of the guys in that department that he said he will never shop for electronics anywhere else. He's coming to our store from now on. That's an hour's drive and he paid out $7000 for the TV and just about every possible accessory, then took the time to talk to our manager and commend this guy on a job well done. If we could all make such a good impression on our customers and deliver service like that, profits would be huge.

[Fergie]

And that's exactly the way it SHOULD be!

I always get a big laugh out of employees, customers, whoever, who think that THEY should come before profits in the company's list of priorities.

NEWS FLASH!!! If profits don't come first then the company goes out of business, all the employees lose their jobs, and all of the customers have to find somewhere else to shop. Not only that, but with that company out of business, now there's less competition for both employees AND for customers, and so other companies can pay employees less and charge customers more!

See all the nice things that happen when profits DON'T come first?
Have you ever worked for an employee owned company?

If you had, you'd realize that EMPLOYEES come first, and the profit comes AFTER that.

Employee owned companies also tend to outlast, and have higher morale.

Keep believing the tripe.

Fergie

[againstherwill]

Saw the thread and it reminded me of what happened in college to me and the BS that I went through with unions and management.

So the story goes I need money and I need get early am classes 7:00 was the second class. So I find a job working at a grocery three miles from campus. My campus was in St.Paul union central outside of ny and detroit. Anyway I find out that it is a union only shop and that I will be paying dues. Not a real problem as I was only working pt of 16 to 20 hours. Worked great through the fall. I would go to work at 23:00 2 or three nights a week and leave by 05:00 at the latest. Go to class do homework go to bed or party. Great.

I work through the winter holiday 23 to 32 hours a week to get extra beer money saved up. I go into work for J term the first week and the rep is there saying that he has great new that the union and the company had reached an agreement for the next 3 years contract. I look at the store rep puzzled and he looks away. I didn't know anything about it. No where did I see postings from the union or management (not that you would from management). The union rep can't leave fast enough and the store rep is out the door with him. I then get called into the managers office and told that due to the new contract that was signed their has to be a specific percentage of Ft to PT. And that all but one PT hired after me are fired. And that to make up for the loss I and the other PTs will be scheduled to work 28 to 31 hours a week. I look him straight in the face and tell him that I will not. I was hired as student with specific hours and I will not be exceeding them. He tells me I need to contact my rep because if I don't show up for the schedule he puts out I will go through disciplinary action. I tell him that if he does that I will do everything in my power to make sure I get hurt on the job. he looks at me stunned and says he doesn't suggest that. I leave and leave a message for the rep and try to track down the POS store rep. I learned later that they were gitty about the new contract and hadn't posted anything in any of their stores so that no pt could vote. A$$HATS
So I miss two scheduled days and get written up. Call the reps nothing " you have to work the schedule" I get written up again the next week. ONe more and I am out. Sure enough I happen to slip with a box cutter and slice my finger and need 8 stitches. I fake the hell out of it and work it for the rest of J term and a month into in the second semester Getting paid all of the time to go to the doctors, Physical Therapy and JOB interviews. Oh yeah and NOT WORK. After I haven't worked but gotten paid for 31 hours a week for 6 weeks I find something at a lab. Next I send an letter to the corporate office letting them know that at store # no information was posted to tell employees that their contract was under negotiation. Then I go to quit.

When I quit I go the manager and tell him personally and he can't say anything but I can't believe you did it. I say did "what?" By that time the store rep is in the office asking the manager what he is doing talking to a union employee without his rep present. This is my opportunity to jump in and tell this sH*thead that if I needed someone to hold my dick while I pissed I would have called for a for him but he didn't back me up when I needed it so I was making sure that the corporate office knew no posting was made at this store letting employee's know their contract was up for negotiation. Then I leave.

Moral of the story. NEVER WORK FOR A UNION SHOP. If you don't have the balls to negotiate your own terms or contract for work you deserve what you get.

[GSequoia]

Yucca - quit safeway and go to Trader Joes - Much better shop!

Corporate America sucks!

[themud]

And that's exactly the way it SHOULD be!

I always get a big laugh out of employees, customers, whoever, who think that THEY should come before profits in the company's list of priorities.

NEWS FLASH!!! If profits don't come first then the company goes out of business, all the employees lose their jobs, and all of the customers have to find somewhere else to shop. Not only that, but with that company out of business, now there's less competition for both employees AND for customers, and so other companies can pay employees less and charge customers more!

See all the nice things that happen when profits DON'T come first?
This is why our economy sucks because people who think like this are allowed to manange and make command decisions... :soapbox:

Youve never worked anywhere that had morale worth crap didya??? heres how it goes profits last everthing else first because without everthing else first you dont have any profits!!!

Oh and the asshats who decide all the customer service crap dont interface at all with the customers in any way except for taking 2 hour lunches with reps and holding their hands!!! You dont know much about how retail SHOULD work do ya....

I always wanted my DMs job I would get to go in at 9 and leave at 5 and tell everone what they were doing wrong and never have to give one compliment to anyone but I just couldnt be that big of an Ahole....

And Gsequoia your so right corporate america just sucks completely no matter how you sculpt that crap...

[Captain Ron]

How many of the folks that think anything other than turning a profit is the sole reason for a business to exist own a business that is a going concern?

Just wondering.

--ron

[Beej]

How many of the folks that think anything other than turning a profit is the sole reason for a business to exist own a business that is a going concern?

Just wondering.

--ronMe for one. I started a business to be able to pay myself a salary that I could depend on, to provide a desperately needed service, and to employ others whom I thought were deserving and had something useful to contribute.
But then again I'm a wacky liberal Canadian...

[Captain Ron]

Me for one. I started a business to be able to pay myself a salary that I could depend on, to provide a desperately needed service, and to employ others whom I thought were deserving and had something useful to contribute.
But then again I'm a wacky liberal Canadian...

So a question.

Is it acceptable to you to run at a loss? And, in the course of your accounting, do you see your salary as the only required compensation for your investment?

Thanks.

--ron

[Beej]

So a question.

Is it acceptable to you to run at a loss? And, in the course of your accounting, do you see your salary as the only required compensation for your investment?

Thanks.

--ronTo be fair, my situation is relatively unique. Given the nature of the business, running at a loss simply cannot and will not ever occur. My only initial personal investment was time, so my salary more than compensates. Of course I see what you are getting at though, but I still don't think it justifies making life difficult for others just to achieve the almighty dollar.

[5-90]

When running a business, making a profit is, of course, important.

I would not place it as "paramount" - merely important. Why?

1) When you run a business solely with the intention of making a profit, priorities can - and will - get skewed. You will lose track of what you are trying to do in the first place.

2) In order to maintain a profit at the business grows, it becomes necessary to attract and retain people who are good at doing whatever it was you hired them to do - whether it's product knowledge, remote diagnosis of systems, repairing devices, or whatever. This means that you will have to compensate them well, treat them well, and generally take care of them. I'm not saying to hold their hands while they do everything (anyone with more than mediochre intelligence will come to resent that,) but you will have to make sure you are addressing any issues they have in the workplace, make sure that they have the time and the tools they need to do their job, praise them publicly when they do well, counsel them in private when something goes awry, and generally remember that they have brains and egos - just like you.

3) When a business becomes totally profit-driven, you start to lose the good people you've hired. One of the most "controllable" expenses is payroll - in order to increase profit, the first thing to be decreased is payroll. Overtime gets cancelled, compensation freezes or decreases, and the people who are worth what you used to pay will find that they can do as well - or better - elsewhere. The only people you'll be able to hire are droids right out of high school, who can't tell their ass from their elbow (and don't care much about the difference anyhow.)

4) So, why did you hire all those good people 'way back when? Simple - because they can take care of your customers, and that is what generates repeat business. Repeat business is money in the bank. When you end up staffed by ignorant people and/or outright idiots, people will find that they can get better service elsewhere - and will leavel.
This begins the "graveyard spiral" (a pilot's term,) wherein you will find that you are unable to recover your business, you'll lay people off (since you can't pay them from what you're making anymore,) and business will continue to decline. This is the point where you'll see the "Under New Management" signs come up - and that is probably the point of recovery about half the time.

So, while I'd start a business (largely to create a job I like - I've had trouble finding it with other people since I mustered out,) I'm not going to drive it with the idea of becoming a "Millionaire by the time I'm 30/40/50" - I'm really not that interested in money. The stuff I'm making and selling here - and plan to once I start production on other things - runs at a low margin. Not super-low - but enough to compensate me for my time, and to cover the costs of materials and shipping. My little "parts" venture that I'm working on is designed to be self-funding, and it's working so far. Battery cables and books are making enough to start buying parts for headlamp harnesses, which should make enough to get my CNC parts made (once I find out how large a pile of nickels I need for that.) Yes, I'm making money. No, it's not a lot - but I never planned it to be. I'm not operating at a loss, and I make enough that I have to tell the IRS that I'm doing it.
I'm also doing it to establish a reputation in parts and service - so I'm not a compleat unknown when I finally open my shop in a couple years (and NOT in California - CalEPA can take a running jump for all I care. I understand what they're trying to do - it's their methods with which I have issue...) By the time I'm opened as a "real" shop, most of you here will by then know how I work and think - and that is likely to help.

5-90

[themud]

How many of the folks that think anything other than turning a profit is the sole reason for a business to exist own a business that is a going concern?

Just wondering.

--ron


There is no such thing as running a business for profit only you have to provide a service and wanted to have done that in the first place...If your only reason is profit and nothing else hook up with the mafia their only reason is profit I think it called EXTORTION and Im pretty damn sure that isnt a business thats even remotely close to legal...Of course corporate fraud and and accouting errors are all in the name of profits and thats a good thing for everyone right????

Greed is the worst thing that ever happened to business in america, I say bring back the gallows and string a few hundred guilty ones up put it on tv and see how much more it happens....

[WB9YZU]

A few thoughts...

Yucca-Man, when your work ethic is vastly different from the company's culture, either adapt your style to the company (When in Rome...) or leave and find a company that does agree with your work ethinc- or start your own.

The world is full of bad managers. You'll meet more of them as you go on :)

To the libertarians...
:lecture: A Company is NOT a democracy.
Making a profit allows companies to expand and allows for them to employ people. Profit is not an evil thing, it is what business is all about. The worse thing a company can do for it's employees is not make a profit as the result is loss of jobs.

[Fergie]

A few thoughts...

Yucca-Man, when your work ethic is vastly different from the company's culture, either adapt your style to the company (When in Rome...) or leave and find a company that does agree with your work ethinc- or start your own.

The world is full of bad managers. You'll meet more of them as you go on :)

To the libertarians...
:lecture: A Company is NOT a democracy.
Making a profit allows companies to expand and allows for them to employ people. Profit is not an evil thing, it is what business is all about. The worse thing a company can do for it's employees is not make a profit as the result is loss of jobs.
Duh.

The point being made is that profit is not priority #1 in every company.

You seem to have misunderstood several of the folks points.

Fergie

[ECKSJAY]

To the libertarians...
:lecture: A Company is NOT a democracy.
Making a profit allows companies to expand and allows for them to employ people. Profit is not an evil thing, it is what business is all about. The worse thing a company can do for it's employees is not make a profit as the result is loss of jobs.

Bingo. My suggestion to seek advice of the shop steward was simply to weed out issue. We had plenty of deadbeats in shop who were told to pound sand by our steward. If there IS an issue, it can be handled. I noticed more came out after I posted. ;) There are two sides to every story.

[themud]

A few thoughts...

Yucca-Man, when your work ethic is vastly different from the company's culture, either adapt your style to the company (When in Rome...) or leave and find a company that does agree with your work ethinc- or start your own.

The world is full of bad managers. You'll meet more of them as you go on :)

To the libertarians...
:lecture: A Company is NOT a democracy.
Making a profit allows companies to expand and allows for them to employ people. Profit is not an evil thing, it is what business is all about. The worse thing a company can do for it's employees is not make a profit as the result is loss of jobs.

Actually your right profit is not an evil things what most companies get away with these days in the name of profit is evil and should never been allowed to happen in the first place in any company ...The problem these days would be the stock holders who expect more for their dollar than they should and thus being the cycle of pushing execs to do more to line there pockets, then the execs say what about me then they take some and down the line it goes till the very last guys(always the hourlys) get screwed so that the guy that does the least amount can get the most...The only way I would retire right now by screwing a million people out of jobs and pension would be if they were polititians :laugh3: ....

Taking away someones livelyhood for a dollar is no different than pulling the trigger yourself on them...

Good luck on the search yucca-man I havent found a good one yet though in all my searching I have become numb to the stupidity(but I still get suprised every now and then)....

[dmillion]

Wrong. Dead wrong...
But to give you credit, this is exactly the kind of tripe they feed management trainees...

Like I said, I always get a big laugh out of the people who just don't "get it."

[dmillion]

[color=navy]How many of the folks that think anything other than turning a profit is the sole reason for a business to exist own a business that is a going concern?

None.

Oh, sure, a lot of them will PRETEND that other things come first. They'll even delude themselves into BELIEVING that. Of course, it is also true that most of the time keeping employees happy can help with profits. It is also true that ALL of the time you have to keep your customers happy--most of them, anyway--in order to maintain profits. But when push comes to shove, profits take priority--as they SHOULD--over any particular employee or any single customer. Folks who believe anything else are only fooling themselves.

[dmillion]

In order to maintain a profit at the business grows, it becomes necessary to attract and retain people who are good at doing whatever it was you hired them to do...

Exactly.

When a business becomes totally profit-driven, you start to lose the good people you've hired.

Not at all true. If the company management is smart they will realize the truth of what you said in the first sentence that I quoted above. That means that BECAUSE profts are the number one priority, they will work to keep employees (and customers, of course) happy.

People who go into business because they want to LOSE money don't stay in business very long. People start businesses because they want to make money. Maybe they want to make money doing something they enjoy. Or maybe they want to make money while serving the community. But they could LOSE money and do something they enjoy, or serve the community, too. They don't want to LOSE money, though, they want to MAKE money and that's why they start a business.

Businesses exist to make profits. Period. If they aren't there for profits then they're not businesses, they're charities, or non-profits, or something else.

Not super-low - but enough to compensate me for my time, and to cover the costs of materials and shipping.

Another way of saying "profit." You want to start a business so you can make a profit. Great. That's what businesses are for. It might still be subconscious, but from your words it is obvious that you understand that beneath and behind everything else, a business cannot operate if it doesn't turn a profit.

[dmillion]

Greed is the worst thing that ever happened to business in america...

No one here has said a single word in defense of greed, extortion, fraud, or anything else that you have mistakenly associated with a desire for profits. It is entirely possible to pursue profits without doing anything unethical in the process. Thousands of business people do it every single day of the year, and have done so for millenia.

[dmillion]

To the libertarians...
:lecture: A Company is NOT a democracy.
Making a profit allows companies to expand and allows for them to employ people. Profit is not an evil thing, it is what business is all about. The worse thing a company can do for it's employees is not make a profit as the result is loss of jobs.

Libertarians!?! I think you've got the wrong idea about libertarians. Most of them would agree 100% with you. These guys who think that companies should exist mainly to benefit the employees are more like communists in their thinking than libertarians.

[Beej]

dmillion, do you always become so overwhelmed with emotion when discussing the sociopathic aspects of corporate business?

Are you a millionaire yet?

Enjoy your trip to the top, I'm sure it will be smooth...

[themud]

None.

Oh, sure, a lot of them will PRETEND that other things come first. They'll even delude themselves into BELIEVING that. Of course, it is also true that most of the time keeping employees happy can help with profits. It is also true that ALL of the time you have to keep your customers happy--most of them, anyway--in order to maintain profits. But when push comes to shove, profits take priority--as they SHOULD--over any particular employee or any single customer. Folks who believe anything else are only fooling themselves.



You make me laugh making more profits keeps the employees happy what kind of drivel is that when was the last time a company posted large profits and gave a good chunk willingly to ALL the employees not just the CEOs and upper management Oh wait I know the answer NEVER so how the hell does that keep em happy...I know their happy when management says well have to cut hours for 2 months so we can maintain our profit margins(thats a good thing right-NOT) the problem isnt that compaines shouldnt make a profit ...Its that most companies have management who dont know when to say were not gonna make as much this quarter to the stockholders and CEOs and just live with it, because theyd be out of a job and that my friend is the truth....

That they want more than can be gotten without cutting hours, employees or benefits to make a HIGHER profit is greed, I dont care how you slice it when anything is cut to improve profits its greedy otherwise all should benefit when times are good and ALL(not just the hourlys) should feel it when times are bad...Your right in that profits shouldnt lose out when it comes to one employee, but should take a back seat when it comes to ALL employees....Try running walmart without employees hell howabout something smaller howabout just like bestbuy nope still to big howabout just an icecream store open to close 7 days a week no sick time, no vacation, no emergencies, but its great all in the name of profits......

Oh and you should do more research the most common reason people start their own businesses isnt money they just want to be their own boss(AKA tired of incompentent companies and management)...

[Captain Ron]

Clearly, not many took biz 101. Worse, not one single person even took a stab at defining profit. I'm sure themud and others read the GAAP every night.

Folks, the land you live in, and the markets as you are a part of is Capitalist. There WAS a place where those of you feeling anti profit might have been right at home, Communist Russia. But do not despair, North Korea is still there. I hear it's a real workers paradise.

--ron

[5-90]

Another way of saying "profit." You want to start a business so you can make a profit. Great. That's what businesses are for. It might still be subconscious, but from your words it is obvious that you understand that beneath and behind everything else, a business cannot operate if it doesn't turn a profit.

At no time did I say I didn't want to make anything doing what I'm doing - I was just looking for a way to make a few bucks myself while trying to save other people money. While the two seem contradictory, they are not.

I am not driven solely by profit - nor do I intend to "get rich." Money has not been a major element in my definition of success, and it never has. I don't want to be rich - I'm happy being comfortable. I am assisted greatly in this effort by marrying a woman who is more philanthropist than materialist - but she's also practical enough to realise that we need to take care of us first.

No, I never took BIZ101 - and I don't intend to. With what I'm seeing of most modern business these days, I'm not sure it would help. I'll run my outfit based on common sense and feedback from the people who are supporting me, since that's what's going to make me keep going. My degrees will be in machining and engineering.

As far as handling employees and such - I don't do it like a manager, I do it like an old-line NCO (which I are.) Praise in public, counsel in private. If anyone takes a pay cut - I get cut first. If there's overtime, you'll be doing it with me. I've worked in companies where the CEO and exec staff get the goodies first, and it's dumb - who's doing the work? The guy with the leather furniture, or the guy wearing six hats?

If you have employees, they're what's making you successful - and failing to recognise that will result in failure.

5-90

[dmillion]

dmillion, do you always become so overwhelmed with emotion when discussing the sociopathic aspects of corporate business?

Overwhelmed with emotion? Where on Earth did you get that idea? I have some opinions. I'm expressing them. That's all. Nothing emotional about it.

[dmillion]

You make me laugh making more profits keeps the employees happy...

Apparently we're having a little comprehension problem here, so let me repeat myself and try to be more clear. I did not say that making more profits keeps the employees happy. First what I said was that you can't pay your employees anything if you don't make any profits, so, yes, in that sense it is necessary to make SOME profits in order to keep employees happy (unless your employees are happy working for no pay--are you?). Second, what I said was that if you work to keep employees happy that very often contributes to profits.

See the difference between what I actually said, and your interpretation of it above?

[dmillion]

I was just looking for a way to make a few bucks...

Exactly. A way to make a profit.

I am not driven solely by profit...

None of this discussion has ever been about people who are SOLELY driven by profit. Anyone who is SOLELY driven by profit is probably not going to do very well with customers or employees, and will probably be out of business before long. But profit still needs to be the priority.

I don't know how many ways there are to say it. Without profits no business can survive. You obviously understand that, and yet you seem to shy away from the word "profit." You keep looking for other ways to describe that money that comes into any successful business. Really, you can say "profit," it's not a dirty word.

nor do I intend to "get rich."

But I bet if you do happen to get rich, you're not going to mind it too much.

I don't do it like a manager, I do it like an old-line NCO (which I are.)

Actually, most really good managers do a lot of things like an old-line NCO. The best manager I've ever worked for, and the one I emulate (as much as possible) when in supervisory positions myself was a former Navy CPO. Of course, some managers are good and some are not, just like some NCOs are good and some are not. But good ones get productivity from their employees, while giving the employees a sense of accomplishment and satisfaction with the work they're doing.

If you have employees, they're what's making you successful - and failing to recognise that will result in failure.

Again, absolutely true. That's why any business owner who is concerned with profits (as they all SHOULD be) is also going to be VERY concerned with keeping their employees happy and productive. The two go hand in hand.

And now I've probably said as much as I can and/or should about this. Those who think "profit" is a dirty word are probably going to continue to do so, no matter what anyone says to them. And those who understand that treating employees and customers right is just a part of what any smart business owner does in order to sustain profits don't need to hear me say it again. So, someone else is welcomed to the last word.

[XJ Dreamin']

Yucca Man,
My advice you're already following. Get out of there as quick as you can. A point I got from post #1 I don't see addressed in the other replies. From your post I get that if you leave the place a mess, you catch it the next day: if you stay to clean it up, you catch it the next day. With the supervision that's in place, it's a no-win for you.

My mom was a nurse. Late in her career she didn't want to work 40 hours a week. Part-time was enough to satisfy her. Periodically, when the hospital started to get a few empty beds (that happens with hospitals: illness comes in waves) the MBA management would lay off nurses aides to maintain an effective cost/expense ratio (i.e. maintain profit margin). My mom would have to spend her shift running around emptying bed pans with no time to do charts until the next shift came on. She would stay to do her charts and charge OT for it. Management would come back and say too much OT, we're going to have to cut your hours. My mom's like, GOOD! I didn't want to work that many hours in the first place. The funny part is, when the beds would fill again, management would be scrambling around trying to re-hire everybody they'd layed off two weeks ago! Is that what y'all mean by Biz 101?

Hey, as long as we're on Biz 101 - isn't salary overhead and isn't profit money made in excess of overhead? It sounded like you were saying that a business owner would pay salary out of profit. I've never seen that happen, but then I never took Biz 101.

[themud]

Apparently we're having a little comprehension problem here, so let me repeat myself and try to be more clear. I did not say that making more profits keeps the employees happy. First what I said was that you can't pay your employees anything if you don't make any profits, so, yes, in that sense it is necessary to make SOME profits in order to keep employees happy (unless your employees are happy working for no pay--are you?). Second, what I said was that if you work to keep employees happy that very often contributes to profits.

See the difference between what I actually said, and your interpretation of it above?


Actually I did misunderstand you on that note except in biz 101 you fail to realize the profits dont pay employees overhead does and in todays work place its okay to lay off, or cut hours to mantain profit margins and thats just f&^$^&ed up whose screwed logic is that how about just taking in a little less profit(NEVER happen that would be common sense and thats all but dead and gone and hell maybe even smart to boot) and keeping the employees happy and viola you have increased profits and a happy workforce...

Profit is what you have left after everything else is paid except these days its okay to cut things like pensions, raises(unless your a CEO or upper management then you dont have to deal with this), and benefits to justify getting a higher profit margin that only the stockerholders and uppermanagement reap the benefits from...All the hourlys get screwed, I know how about a pay cut up top you know like the 3 quarter sucks all salaried managers will take a 40% pay cut until are margins are better(ya right I give it better odds gas will go down in price first)...Oh and stock holders f(&^% you, you made just the same amount of money this quarter not more not less just the same for doing NOTHING...Still they piss and moan about how the company isnt making enough money for them...

God the business world sucks these damn bunch of damn greedy capitalists out there... :firedevil

[Island XJ]

dmillion, do you always become so overwhelmed with emotion when discussing the sociopathic aspects of corporate business?

Are you a millionaire yet?

Enjoy your trip to the top, I'm sure it will be smooth...:laugh2: are you still running your business as a nonprofit Beejy? Why are you afraid to make a living? Milk the government, work your staff like slaves and roll around in a loaded bimmer like your wife wants you to!

:D

[Beej]

:laugh2: are you still running your business as a nonprofit Beejy? Why are you afraid to make a living? Milk the government, work your staff like slaves and roll around in a loaded bimmer like your wife wants you to!

:DWelly welly well well.
Back from the dead, eh?
Do you now know everything there is about arctic birds?
I got fwee right here in me 'and boy...