Rear flex with Rusty's. Is this normal?

[SV1CEC]

Hi folks,

I just had my lift setup finalized (after replacing the POS things that Rusty calls "shocks") and I took the XJ for some flexing pictures. Some of them are shown below:

http://www.m1911.org/temp/DSC01852.JPG
http://www.m1911.org/temp/DSC01854.JPG
http://www.m1911.org/temp/DSC01841.JPG

Somehow, I do not like the rear flex. It looks as if the front is flexing OK, but the rear springs do not allow for much travel. Mind you there is no rear antisway bar, the front is disconnected, and there is nothing else to limit the rear travel.

What are your thoughts?

I'll try to get some more pictures today, forcing the front up a more steep cliff, to see if the additional weight at the rear will cause it to flex more.

Rgds

[ScottyDog]

John,

My buddy has Rusty's 4.5" lift also, the only problem was that the rear springs were short! We added a 3/4" shackle and it solved the problem.
I guess since the springs were short, and the stock shackle was stretched into the spring instead of straight up and down like it was suppose to be, not letting the spring to stretch out and flex.
Is this the problem that you have??

Scott S.

[SV1CEC]

Originally posted by Scott S.
John,

My buddy has Rusty's 4.5" lift also, the only problem was that the rear springs were short! We added a 3/4" shackle and it solved the problem.
I guess since the springs were short, and the stock shackle was stretched into the spring instead of straight up and down like it was suppose to be, not letting the spring to stretch out and flex.
Is this the problem that you have??

Scott S.

Scott,

Indeed the rear springs were short. Indeed Rusty send me those .75" longer shackles (as if longer shackles compensate for short springs) which I installed. At the same time, I also removed the lower leaf from the springs and this, after some two months made the shackles being vertical now.

However, it looks as if the springs are also way to stiff, and haven't sag a bit after almost 9 months on the truck. I do not know if your friend's rear tires stuff inside his fenders, but no matter how much I tried (I tried also today, I'll post some more pictures later tonight), I didn't manage to make them go as far up as I would like.

I guess those who were telling me to go the Rubicon Express way, knew what they were talking about.

Thanks for your answer, I appreciate it.

Rgds

[Scott Mac.]

Are you guys' saying his springs are now too siff?

I always thought the in thing to do was to bitch about his sagging springs.

When did this change? I didn't get the memo.

[Scott Mac.]

Sorry for the sarcasm, I havn't had my coffee yet.

It seems to me the springs need to be broken in. How often have you been offroad with it? Did you remove the leaf because it gave you to much ride height? That would explain why the spring seemed to be to short. Once the springs are broken in the ride height will sag down to normal, the length of the springs will expand, and the spring rate will soften up to give you more flex.

[Kudzu]

Well..I don't know what is wrong with your but I have just installed Rusty 6.5" Long travel suspension which is the same rear springs and I have stuffed my rear tires and I love it...
Can't wait till Tellico to really get it broke in good....I rode Gardendale,AL last weekend and gave it a really good workout...

[ScottyDog]

John, this may sound really stupid, but on my brothers XJ with RE leaf pack & 1" shackle he couldn't get the rear to flex either..... Now the RE leaf packs were in for a year & half, but when he added he shackle and went to flex it, it seemed like it didn't want to flex anymore.......... we torqued the shackle bolts to tight not letting the shackle & leaf spring move...... Now it stuffs his 33s pretty good.........

Scott S.

[BenXJCA]

My Rusty's 4.5" leafs flex like they should. Very nicely.

[Scott Mac.]

Originally posted by Scott S.
John, this may sound really stupid, but on my brothers XJ with RE leaf pack & 1" shackle he couldn't get the rear to flex either..... Now the RE leaf packs were in for a year & half, but when he added he shackle and went to flex it, it seemed like it didn't want to flex anymore.......... we torqued the shackle bolts to tight not letting the shackle & leaf spring move...... Now it stuffs his 33s pretty good.........

Scott S.

Good point there.

John, do recall if you happened to torque the susupension componets with weight on or off the wheels?

[THE_OWL]

Who's Rusty?

[SV1CEC]

Folks,

To answer some of the issues raised:

1. I do remember that the shop which removed my lower leaf and installed the shackles tightened everything up with the weight of the axle. In other words, the truck was on stands and they tighten everything up, then lowered it to the ground.

2. Why I removed the lower leaf? Because the damn springs were so stiff, that they made my kidneys bounce up to my throat every time I hit a speed bump at anything above 0 mph. I didn't care about the ride height that much, but when I had them installed, they left the shackles all the way forward, to the point that they touched the front part of their mounts! With the lower leaf removed and the longer shackles, here is what it looked the day of installation:

http://www.m1911.org/images/Cherokee/newshackles.jpg

Yestarday, I checked and the shackles are almost vertical (that is with the lower leaf removed and the longer shackles installed).

3. How much they tightened the bits and pieces. I am not sure. The shop is a springs shop. It looked as if they knew what they were doing. The shackles do move back and forth, I checked that out today, unfortunately I didn't get a picture of them, but I noticed them at one occasion being one forward of the vertical and one backwards.

4. Lift height. As it was with the lower leaf in the springs, it was 6" all around. With the lower leaf removed, but with the .75" extended shackles, it lost about .25" to .5" at the rear, which is fine with me, I like a level truck (not leaning forward too much). I know this is more than advertised (I have Rusty's 4.5" lift), but I also have the lighter 2.5 lt engine and indeed, I haven't have it off-road that much since the lift was installed.

Here are some more pictures I snapped today:

http://www.m1911.org/temp/Dsc01876.jpg
http://www.m1911.org/temp/Dsc01881.jpg
http://www.m1911.org/temp/Dsc01882.jpg

Notice how the rear tires do not go in the wheel well.

As I said, I didn't had the chance to take the truck off-road too much (what with all the problems I had with Rusty's parts), but it is a daily driver and it has been flexed a little.

I am not sure what to expect in the future, and being on a tight budget (with the twins around), I can't afford new springs at this moment, so I guess I have to live with these POS.

Do you think I should loosened all the bolts and retighten them with the weight on the axles?

Also, one more question. Check this picture below:

http://www.m1911.org/temp/Dsc01874.jpg

I noticed that the track bar has reached the end of its travel, touching the upper part of its mount.

http://www.m1911.org/temp/Dsc01875.jpg

Any ideas on how one can correct that allowing some more drop?

Scott and others, thanks for all your input.

Rgds

[ScottyDog]

John,
Its just so strange that Rusty's springs are so stiff!! To tell you the truth, my partners XJ with Rusty's 4.5 kit rides like a Cadillac soft & plush. And he has only takin out just a few times within the past year since he has had the suspension in.... Hopefully everything works out for you. Good luck,

Scott S.
NAXJA Member #631

[SV1CEC]

Originally posted by Scott S.
John,
Its just so strange that Rusty's springs are so stiff!! To tell you the truth, my partners XJ with Rusty's 4.5 kit rides like a Cadillac soft & plush. And he has only takin out just a few times within the past year since he has had the suspension in.... Hopefully everything works out for you. Good luck,

Scott S.
NAXJA Member #631

Cadillac??? I wish. In any case Scott, thanks for the input, sincerely appreciated.

[Scott Mac.]

The only thing I can suggest is jacking up the body as high as you can (or feel comfortable with) take the tires off and drop the jack down to the ground spreading the leaves apart and grease up the wear pads liberally.

[ScottyDog]

John,
I just realized that you were also asking about the front trac bar also.... I had this problem when I had the procomp trac bar, I just notched it where the trac bar was hitting at.

Scott Suyeto
NAXJA Member #631

[kraziexj]

i assume you've already checked but i'll throw it out anyway........are the shocks bottoming out?:confused:

[ChuckD]

Originally posted by kraziexj
i assume you've already checked but i'll throw it out anyway........are the shocks bottoming out?:confused:

Try flexing the rear without the lower shocks mounted, also you really need to break them in, load them down when your doing your normal driving. I think your victim of Rusty's bad experiments, I too have always heard that his springs were always on the soft side.

[SV1CEC]

Originally posted by kraziexj
i assume you've already checked but i'll throw it out anyway........are the shocks bottoming out?:confused:

I sincerely doubt it. They are brand new Old Man EMUs. I checked some older pictures, when it had Rusty's own shocks on, and the flex is the same (i.e. not adequate).

Tnx anyway.

[SV1CEC]

Originally posted by XJCHUCK72
Try flexing the rear without the lower shocks mounted, also you really need to break them in, load them down when your doing your normal driving. I think your victim of Rusty's bad experiments, I too have always heard that his springs were always on the soft side.

Chuck,

I am carrying a tolbox I can hardly lift, and another box with recovery equipment of similar weight, on a daily basis. I do not know what else to put in there, to weight it down more.

Maybe some ammo cans full of .45 ACP. :-)

Rgds

[ChuckD]

Your not the only one with rear flex problem, even those with Alcans and other brands seem to need a serious work in period. Maybe try taking out another leaf or turn the last one upside down to get them broke in, or just grin and bear it until you can get a different set of springs. :)

[Bones]

I sincerely doubt it. They are brand new Old Man EMUs.
Did you say these were OME springs or Rusty's actual springs? I think you meant the shocks were OME's and springs Rusty's but wanted to clarify. I would make sure to loosen and retighten the shackles and both ends of the springs while the weight is full on the packs. Also take it out and really flex it up a few times to limber up the springs.

Track bar binding is a problem with any good flexing lift. The best way to eliminate your bind is to move the track bar up over the top of the axle on a custom mount. It doesn't have to be fancy, just strong. Make sure to keep the draglink nearly parallel to the track bar (Like doing an over under type steering).


http://images3.fotki.com/v29/free/958b0/4/42106/173922/Image7-or.jpg
http://images3.fotki.com/v29/free/958b0/4/42106/173922/Image13-or.jpg

Now the "flex" shot
http://images.fotki.com/v3/photos/4/42106/114542/mr2-vi.jpg\

Bones :skull1:
NAXJA #6

[SV1CEC]

Originally posted by Bones
Did you say these were OME springs or Rusty's actual springs? I think you meant the shocks were OME's and springs Rusty's but wanted to clarify. I would make sure to loosen and retighten the shackles and both ends of the springs while the weight is full on the packs. Also take it out and really flex it up a few times to limber up the springs.

Right, the shocks are OME while the springs are Rusty's.

Track bar binding is a problem with any good flexing lift. The best way to eliminate your bind is to move the track bar up over the top of the axle on a custom mount. It doesn't have to be fancy, just strong. Make sure to keep the draglink nearly parallel to the track bar (Like doing an over under type steering).

Yes, this is what I am hoping to do sometime in the future. Yours looks pretty interesting. Any problems with the sway bar brackets etc.? I would appreciate some more details, you can e-mail me direct sv1cec@hol.gr.


Now the "flex" shot

Bones :skull1:
NAXJA #6

Gee, this front end can really flex. Are your springs still in their position there? I am not sure if I want that much flex at the front, but if it does not bring any additional problems, why not? And this is with short arms, as far as I can see!!! Bravo!

Rgds

[Bones]

I am not sure if I want that much flex at the front, but if it does not bring any additional problems, why not? And this is with short arms, as far as I can see...

Yes I am using "short arms", but they are on the RE drop brackets.
There are disadvantages to too much flex in the front. That's what limiting straps are for. I will be putting one in this year, more for the total drop on the axle (like when standing nose up in a steep climb) then it will be for one side or the other drop. In other words, it will be centered on the axle not at the outboard ends.

Any problems with the sway bar brackets etc.?
The brackets had to be modified slightly. The biggest problem with any over under is the close clearances to the diff cover and coil pads on full lock turning.

Are your springs still in their position there?

http://images.fotki.com/v12/free/958b0/4/42106/157829/lh10-or.jpg

They unseat some but the bump stop extensions from RE add enough length to guide them back where they belong.

Bones :skull1:
NAXJA #6

[SV1CEC]

Originally posted by Bones

The brackets had to be modified slightly. The biggest problem with any over under is the close clearances to the diff cover and coil pads on full lock turning.

I am not sure I understand what an "over under" is, at least not when refering to 4x4s!!! :-)

The drop-down brackets is next on my wish-list. I got very close to buying them, but then the seller had some problems, I run out of money etc. so I am still hoping for them.

Thanks for all the info, appreciated.

Rgds

[woody]

By over & under he means the steering drag link is over the knuckle and the tie rod is under it...

[SV1CEC]

Originally posted by woody
By over & under he means the steering drag link is over the knuckle and the tie rod is under it...

Yes, yes, yes, silly me!!!!

Sorry, not enough caffeine in my system at that time.

Rgds

[satan]

Um... Since the 4-corners work as a "system" ...
... shouldn't someone post in here about the spring rate of the front coils??

IF you're indeed running a fair mount of arch in a too-short rear spring, and as you mention the rates are kinda "high" (stiff) back there... Why hasn't there been any discussion on the front spring rates? From the few fotos I looked at it appear to me that the rates (front to rear) are mis-matched - enough so that it's eaiser for the rear leaves to force the body to roll into the front suspension rather than allow the rear axle to move in relation to the body...

... now, granted, switching to a stiffer front coil WILL supply more force to the body, which is something to consider, but certainly you'll feel more balanced after changing rates... (IMHO, of course)

Really the "more correct" answer would be to install a leaf pack designed for the vehicle (no offence, but short is NOT right!) and with a proper rate to match your front componantry...

[2xtreme]

1) There are many reasons why springs do and do not flex!! Some of the issues can have to do with weight, use, friction between leaves, bushings, shackles, torque of bolts, etc, etc.

2) I believe that Rusty's and RE's springs are manufactured by the same company.

3) If you did not install the components then you will not have a good idea of what could be wrong with the instlation, bushings , lube, torque, etc

4) If you have not flexed the springs much then they are not "worn in". If you have it as a daily driver and you need to flex them try carrying some heavy cargo for a few days or better yet take it off road to flex it.

5) not a single one of the photos you posted would I expect the rear to flex any more. You need to flex to the point of a rear tire off the ground to show the total flex in the rear.

6) do not take a suppliers problems to the board unless you can prove that it is the suppliers problems. No one is perfect, we are all human, Rusty makes some very good products for a very good price and he has supported the xj community for a long time.

Best of Luck,
michael

[SV1CEC]

Originally posted by 2xtreme
1) There are many reasons why springs do and do not flex!! Some of the issues can have to do with weight, use, friction between leaves, bushings, shackles, torque of bolts, etc, etc.

I agree, and that is why I asked for some help.

2) I believe that Rusty's and RE's springs are manufactured by the same company.

Could very well be, I do not know that so I can't comment.

3) If you did not install the components then you will not have a good idea of what could be wrong with the instlation, bushings , lube, torque, etc

I might not have done the installation myself, but I was there at every work done, and I know what was done. I sincerely doubt it, if doing the work would provide me with more knowledge. The people who did all the work did it very professionally, lubing every part that needed to be lubed, even changing the lube nipples on the extended shackles that Rusty send me, with angled one, otherwise they would be useless.

4) If you have not flexed the springs much then they are not "worn in". If you have it as a daily driver and you need to flex them try carrying some heavy cargo for a few days or better yet take it off road to flex it.

Heavy cargo for a few days? How do 150 pounds of tools and another 100 of recovery equipment for eight or nine months sound?

5) not a single one of the photos you posted would I expect the rear to flex any more. You need to flex to the point of a rear tire off the ground to show the total flex in the rear.

I did some inventory check on my pictures, as I remember I had one where the rear tire was just off the ground. Here it is:

http://www.m1911.org/temp/DSC01799.JPG

Indeed you are right, it looks as if the rear tire is more stuffed inside the wheel well. I'll do some more checking next weekend. Maybe they do stuff after all.

6) do not take a suppliers problems to the board unless you can prove that it is the suppliers problems. No one is perfect, we are all human, Rusty makes some very good products for a very good price and he has supported the xj community for a long time.

Pardon me, but I thought that this is the exact "raison d' etre" for the forums. To discuss problems possibly related to manufacturers, so that one's bad experience does not happen to another one, or vice versa, one's good experience is used as a guideline for others.

In any case, and since you asked for proofs, here are some evidences of what I am talking about:

http://www.m1911.org/images/Cherokee/shackles.jpg

This picture was taken last Christmas, or two and a half months after the installation of the lift. Check the angle of the shackles and tell me if this is OK with you.

http://www.m1911.org/images/Cherokee/frontmounts.jpg

Same period, this is a picture of the front spring bushings touching the right side of their mount. Do you consider that to be acceptable?

And this is a picture of Rusty's leaf pack minus the lower leaf and with the new .75" extended shackles.

http://www.m1911.org/images/Cherokee/newshackles.jpg

As you can see, even with the lower leaf removed, the shackles are not vertical, but I can live with that angle.

Why on earth should I spend money changine shackles and bushings to correct a product's defect? Why on earth couldn't Rusty include the new bushings and extended shackles with his springs? And do you consider an extended shackle as a remedy for a short leaf pack?

Indeed Rusty has some goods products. I've never complained about his front springs. I've never complained about the transfer case drop down kit (nothing much to complain about anyway), but having all these problems with his rear springs is unacceptable. Having to dump his excuse for shocks less than eight months after installation is unacceptable. Having to replace his track bar's TRE 8 months after I installed it (it was dead on arrival, but I can't prove that to you. But I know how much worst the steering of my truck became as soon as his lift was installed. And that the steering only got better after I replaced the TRE with a bushing end and frame mount).

I would also rather not get into other problems I had with him (wrong air filter send when I purchased a Weber, brake pipes which arrived incomplete, etc.). I would have to attach our e-mail exchange here to prove these to you. I can do it if you so want.

Aslo, I am not sure what you mean by "Rusty has supported the XJ community for years". Support is a very special thing and I am not sure what you mean by that.

Newcomers to this community (NAXJA or the XJ world if you want) should understand that Rusty's parts are "good for their price". That does not make them good. "Good for the price" is not necessarily the same as "good". People should understand that by buying Rusty's parts they can expect to run into trouble, more so than with the same parts of other vendors. I think it is the duty of the more experienced members, to protect the newbies by just clarifying this.

I hope I gave you the proof that you asked for, if not please let me know, I can provide much more.

Rgds

[ChuckD]

Do you still have your orginal OEM leaf springs. Maybe use the main OEM leaf and mix in Rusty's leafs. I know you will not know what spring rate you will have, but you may find the combination perfect for you. The main leaf looks way too short and I think its the culprit to your problem.

[SV1CEC]

Originally posted by XJCHUCK72
Do you still have your orginal OEM leaf springs. Maybe use the main OEM leaf and mix in Rusty's leafs. I know you will not know what spring rate you will have, but you may find the combination perfect for you. The main leaf looks way too short and I think its the culprit to your problem.

I am not sure Chuck, I think I left them with my mechanic. He is known to save things for later, but I'll have to check with him on that. So what you are saying is that maybe if I take the top leaf off Rusty's pack and replace it with the OEM original top leaf I might get a better spring? Wouldn't that leaf be too short for the lift I am standing at?

Rgds

[ChuckD]

I know many, like Goatman who still uses the OEM main leaf with a mix of add-a-leafs or leaf from MJ's or Dakotas. I remeber my OEM's with add-a-leafs, it flexed like crazy, but you may have to make a traction (ladder bar) to keep the spring wrap down.

[vintagespeed]

As others have said, notch the TB mount or raise the TB mount with an ORGS relocation bkt or homefabbed. Looks like you're going to be maxing that stock steering gear when the passenger side droops though.

http://www.rockxj.com/images/moneyshot.jpg

[JnJ]

"6) do not take a suppliers problems to the board unless you can prove that it is the suppliers problems. No one is perfect, we are all human, Rusty makes some very good products for a very good price and he has supported the xj community for a long time."

Ya, this is BS. There is a difference between someone coming on and saying "Brand X Sucks Azz" and someone coming on and looking for help ideas with a problem.

I suggest you loosen up those shackle bolts and really flex that thing up. They'll loosen up for ya over time. Looks like you already learned, you shouldn't run stock shackles with big springs, the shackle bottoms out before the leaf is done flexing, this can lead to premature leaf sag/failure.

[SV1CEC]

I agree with you, 100%. Longer shackles are a must for an XJ. One of the reasons I blame Rusty for, is that these improvements that he shipped me for free, after I reported to him the problems, could have been included in the kit. He knew the problems. Why ship something faulty and then wait for some one to mention his problems and then send the solution for free?

In my case especially, when I ordered my kit from him, I called him and explained that since I live in Athens, Greece, it is not easy to go back and forth for such things. I specifically told him, that I do not mind paying some more money initially, to make sure that when the lift is installed everything needed would be here and would be the right thing for the job.

However, at that time, when I ordered my lift, my knowledge was much less than it is now. Had I been selecting a lift today, I would have gone entirely different route for sure.

Unfortunatelly, I didn't listen enough and trusted Rusty's reassurancing words. My mistake.

[2xtreme]

I appologize if my previous post was not helpfull. I re-read it and see why you were offended. That was not my intent!!

I got a little upset when people blame problems on people/suppliers/instalation/etc when they really do not have a good idea of what it could be.

To be more constructive, from the pic that I see it looks very simply like your springs are not worked in. I suspect over a period of time and flex they will probably flex more. you could try my weight in the back, or you could try flexing it more often to try to decrease the time it takes to get them to flex better.

As far as shackles go, all lift springs should come with new shackles because they should be designed to work together on the vehicle they intend to go into. However almost none of the lift springs that I am aware of on any truck come with new shackles.

I would also try lubing each of the leaves, and loosening all of the hardware to see how it flexes. Then re-tighten to the appropriate torque for each bolt (with the car on the ground).

I hope that helps, sorry if my last post was offensive and un-constructive.

Michael

[vintagespeed]

......To be more constructive, from the pic that I see it looks very simply like your springs are not worked in. I suspect over a period of time and flex they will probably flex more. you could try my weight in the back, or you could try flexing it more often to try to decrease the time it takes to get them to flex better........

I dont agree at all, sure over time the springs may loose some of their rate and sag, Rusty's springs are known for that, but that doesn't mean that they'll flex better. A properly designed and assembled spring pack will work correctly straight out of "the box" as in the pic I posted of my Nationals from ORGS. These flexed to the bumpstops right after being installed and I didn't have to lube them. I did run them with Revolvers and now with a straight 1.5" lift shackle which doesn't sit as flat as the revolvers did. I dont think there's much you can do to get them to flex better, they're simply not correctly matched to your XJ. Either rate wise, or length wise.

[SV1CEC]

Originally posted by 2xtreme
I appologize if my previous post was not helpfull. I re-read it and see why you were offended. That was not my intent!!

I got a little upset when people blame problems on people/suppliers/instalation/etc when they really do not have a good idea of what it could be.

Apologies accepted. As you saw, I was not blaming someone without proofs and without knowing what I was talking about.


To be more constructive, from the pic that I see it looks very simply like your springs are not worked in. I suspect over a period of time and flex they will probably flex more. you could try my weight in the back, or you could try flexing it more often to try to decrease the time it takes to get them to flex better.

As I said, I am already carrying weight in the back, since day one, and I ain't going to remove it. This is an old truck, so tools are a mandatory item, even during daily drives (what if something breaks down?). As for flexing it more, I hope that during summer, I'll get more chances to put it through its paces, maybe you are right and it will help.


As far as shackles go, all lift springs should come with new shackles because they should be designed to work together on the vehicle they intend to go into. However almost none of the lift springs that I am aware of on any truck come with new shackles.

If I am not mistaken, Rubicon's lift come with new shackles. In reality, I would prefer if a lift kit had lower lift springs and gained the final lift height by a taller shackle. This would give shofter spring rate, while the longer shackle would help in the flex dept.


I would also try lubing each of the leaves, and loosening all of the hardware to see how it flexes. Then re-tighten to the appropriate torque for each bolt (with the car on the ground).

Maybe the fact that at least two of the friction pads in each spring have broken (before even getting it off-road) plays a role. Rusty has supposedly send me some new ones, together with some nuts for my upper adjustable control arms and four Bilsteins, unfortunatelly that package never made it to me.


I hope that helps, sorry if my last post was offensive and un-constructive.

Michael

Understanding our mistakes shows honnesty, we are all, only humans, so ... error-prones. We are all here to learn and I have to thank all of you who spend time answering my questions.

Thank You Gentlemen

[vintagespeed]

Originally posted by SV1CEC
In reality, I would prefer if a lift kit had lower lift springs and gained the final lift height by a taller shackle. This would give shofter spring rate, while the longer shackle would help in the flex dept.

Alot of the lift height gained in lifted leafs is in the height of the stack at the spring perch and the thickness of each leaf, this combined with the arch of the leafs will give you the final lift height. Therefore, a soft spring rate with multiple leafs can give you better ride than a severely arched and stiffly rated spring pack.

[bbaker80]

I noticed something a while back that might relate to your problem. If you look closley at your pic of the shackle, you will see the bumper bracket bolts sticking through into the box that the shackle mounts in. As you compress the spring, the shackle moves back, directly into one of the lower bolts. Call it a design flaw in the shackle if you want, but you either need to notch the shackle to clear the bolt, or whack the bolt off with a grinder or sawzall. As for the track bar, you're fine just cutting a little out of the bracket to allow more flex. Are you running a HD track bar mount or just an upgraded track bar? You might want to consider moving the passenger side mount further twoard the center of the vehicle as well, if you don't want to grind anything.

[woody]

" noticed something a while back that might relate to your problem. If you look closley at your pic of the shackle, you will see the bumper bracket bolts sticking through into the box that the shackle mounts in. As you compress the spring, the shackle moves back, directly into one of the lower bolts. Call it a design flaw in the shackle if you want, but you either need to notch the shackle to clear the bolt, or whack the bolt off with a grinder or sawzall."

Ya I found out this was why my revolver shackles werent revolving...they hung up on the rear bumper mounts (not factory) and severley limited the swing of the shackle. I removed the shackles to sell them, then removed the bumper to 'clearance' the mounts...installed some MJ shackles and flexed it up w/o the bumper on there...WOW what a difference. It rides SO MUCH better on the road now that the shackles & springs have free movement. Also agree with JnJ to check that the shackle bolts aren't too tight.

FWIW I am running 4.5" Rusty's pack with an extra leaf that nets 6" approx (with approx 400# of 'junk' in the back)

Thanks all for the Track Bar advice...mine needs some attention to the mount clearance...

[SV1CEC]

Originally posted by bbaker80
I noticed something a while back that might relate to your problem. If you look closley at your pic of the shackle, you will see the bumper bracket bolts sticking through into the box that the shackle mounts in. As you compress the spring, the shackle moves back, directly into one of the lower bolts. Call it a design flaw in the shackle if you want, but you either need to notch the shackle to clear the bolt, or whack the bolt off with a grinder or sawzall. As for the track bar, you're fine just cutting a little out of the bracket to allow more flex. Are you running a HD track bar mount or just an upgraded track bar? You might want to consider moving the passenger side mount further twoard the center of the vehicle as well, if you don't want to grind anything.

You are right about that bolt. Actually, when I had the shackles installed, the mechanic put a thick washer on the bolt, so that it does not go so far inside the shackle mount. However, when I was trying to flex the truck, I checked that area and the shackle was not even close to that bolt, so that was not the issue. I plan to have that bolt shorten, unfortunatelly I do not have a swazal, so it is only elbow grease!!!

Thanks for bringing this up though.

As for the track bar, this is an upgrade of the standard trackbar that Rusty sells. The one I got with my lift kit had the TRE at the frame end, which was dead-on-arrival. It was not that obvious though, so I never noticed it. What I did notice was a severe problem with my steering, which took me 6 months to troubleshooot. So, I just got the heavy duty bushing end and the corresponding frame. Of course they didn't fit, unless I chopped off a piece from the threaded end of the trackbar. So moving the passenger's side to the center will probably mean I have to trim the threaded end even more, I 'll probably end up running out of thread. I think I'll trimm a little that area above the trackbar.

Many tnx and rgds

[Danno]

patch up all the "bullet holes" cuz your leaf spring fluid is leaking out of them. :D

[Crunch]

The easiest way I found to trim for the trac bar was to get out the sawzall with the tracbar off and trim right back to the coil bucket. I saw no need for this extra bit of metal overhanging. Actually, I left about 1/16", and once I cleared the top, I cut horizontally on the back side to complete the cut.

Question; The last several shots you showed of the shackles, were those shots with the weight of the XJ or were they with the weight unloaded from the spring?

If they were unloaded, I'd say they are just about right. If that was sitting on level ground, I'd say short springs.

Crunch

[Nay]

If noboby told you...you have to leave the bolts loose until all the weight is on the springs, and then torque them.

Heavy duty, tall lift springs don't ride very nice if you want any handling at all. Your shackles are still a bit short. At a minimum, you should have the droop/compression of the movement of the shackle within the shackle box, which would be more than exhibited in your pictures.

On the other hand, what you are doing in your pics doesn't require much rear flex, so you probably aren't seeing all the movement. Are you sure your rear swaybar is removed?

If any of this is redundant to the rest of the thread, pls forgive me for not reading it.

FWIW, I don't have a ton of rear flex, and I like the extra stability on and offroad.

Nay

[SV1CEC]

Originally posted by Dan Riggs
patch up all the "bullet holes" cuz your leaf spring fluid is leaking out of them. :D

No, no you got it wrong, what is leaking is the lightbulbs lubricant!

rgds

[SV1CEC]

Originally posted by Crunch
The easiest way I found to trim for the trac bar was to get out the sawzall with the tracbar off and trim right back to the coil bucket. I saw no need for this extra bit of metal overhanging. Actually, I left about 1/16", and once I cleared the top, I cut horizontally on the back side to complete the cut.

My track bar does not bind on the downward part, it is hitting the upper wall of its mount. I do not think I can cut it there, I think there is the steering stabilizer mount, right there. I'll have too check, to late in the evening to remember.

Question; The last several shots you showed of the shackles, were those shots with the weight of the XJ or were they with the weight unloaded from the spring?

If they were unloaded, I'd say they are just about right. If that was sitting on level ground, I'd say short springs.

Crunch

Crunch, all shackles pictures were taken with the truck sitting on a ... more or less level ground with the weight on the axles. So I think it is about right as it is now, the shackles are almost vertical.

Thanks for the tips.

[SV1CEC]

Originally posted by Nay
If noboby told you...you have to leave the bolts loose until all the weight is on the springs, and then torque them.

I'll unscrew them and retighten them this weekend. Tnx.

Heavy duty, tall lift springs don't ride very nice if you want any handling at all. Your shackles are still a bit short. At a minimum, you should have the droop/compression of the movement of the shackle within the shackle box, which would be more than exhibited in your pictures.

I am no suspension engineer, but I am not sure if what you are saying is 100% true. I would expect companies which develop lift kits, to offer soft springs, since you are going to use the truck off-road. Handling might be affected, but I am sure a compromise can be reached, where your springs are not soft enough to let your truck roll, while at the same time, they are not that hard to cause kidney relocation.

On the other hand, what you are doing in your pics doesn't require much rear flex, so you probably aren't seeing all the movement. Are you sure your rear swaybar is removed?

That might be true, I know a place where I can test the full flex, hopefully I'll be able to visit it this weekend. As for my rear sway bar, it was removed even before my lift was installed.

Rgds

[Crunch]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SV1CEC
[B]My track bar does not bind on the downward part, it is hitting the upper wall of its mount. I do not think I can cut it there, I think there is the steering stabilizer mount, right there. I'll have too check, to late in the evening to remember.


The cutting I was referring to is the top of the tracbar mount. The stabilizer is on top of the coil bucket and the tb mount is below and to the right.

Crunch

[SV1CEC]

Originally posted by Crunch
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SV1CEC
[B]My track bar does not bind on the downward part, it is hitting the upper wall of its mount. I do not think I can cut it there, I think there is the steering stabilizer mount, right there. I'll have too check, to late in the evening to remember.


The cutting I was referring to is the top of the tracbar mount. The stabilizer is on top of the coil bucket and the tb mount is below and to the right.

Crunch

Chuck,

I'll have a look at it today. If there is room there, it will be cutting time this weekend. The only problem is that it is too hot these days here, so I am not sure I would be in the "lying under the truck mood", most probably "stay in the sea mood".

Tnx and rgds

[SV1CEC]

Folks,

Yesterday, I took the XJ for some flexing. Here are some pictures:

http://www.m1911.org/temp/DSC01887.JPG

This is a place I knew I could flex the suspension, almost to its limits.

Here is a picture from the rear opposite:

http://www.m1911.org/temp/DSC01889.JPG

Here are two more pictures, where the left rear wheel is practically not touching the ground, so as someone suggested previously, this is the maximum flex:

http://www.m1911.org/temp/DSC01894.JPG

http://www.m1911.org/temp/DSC01895.JPG

Do you think that the rear flexes enough? My opinion is that the wheel going up, is not going as far up as it could go, the bump stops are way far from the axle, and as you can see from the picture below, the shackle has still enough to go to the rear.

A couple more shots, the first to show how much the leaves have been moved from their position, I guess this is normal.

http://www.m1911.org/temp/DSC01891.JPG

And the second to show how close the bumper bolt was to the shackle.

http://www.m1911.org/temp/DSC01892.JPG

It didn't touch, but was close enough. I took the bolts out today and have them trimmed. At the same time, I loosened the shackles bolts, they were very tight. I mean I had to use two wrenches one into the other, to loosen the nut. I shook the truck up and down by jumping on the bumper, and drove it a little back and forth and retightened them, but not that much. If I'll get the chance, I take it to the same place tomorrow to see if it made a difference.

I would sincerely appreciate your opinion, folks.

Tnx and rgds

[ChuckD]

Look fine to me, just as much as others with rear leafs. Like said before, more breaking in will help them flex a little more. Do you have extended bumpstops, because if you don't, you will never hit them or want to with the oversized tires.


http://home.comcast.net/~cdutke/flex/DSCF0008.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~cdutke/flex/DSCF0007.JPG

[Casper]

I think that Scott Mac has the point here. I looked at your pictures, and it appears that with new springs, you are stuffing pretty good. Take it off road more and WORK IT. I think you will see a progressive difference. With the trac bar issue, either trim the top as suggested or get a drop bracket for the upper mount. You can also change out the end (if it is a tie rod end) for a heim joint and make a "U" bracket and bolt it to the original mount bolt and turn your heim (hole horizontal) bolt it to the "U" bracket and THERE YOU GO! We have done this many times and it works EXCELLENT.

Casper

[CJS]

Did you check to make sure your shocks aren't maxing out?? Sounds kinda stupid but I've had shocks on for a few months before realizing they were too short.

[SV1CEC]

To all who replied:

1. Thanks, I sincerely appreciate it.

2. Some comments/answers

- CJS : The shocks are OME long ones, they are far from maxing out.

- Casper : Track bar has already a lowered frame mount, Rusty's. And it has the horizontal bolt. I think I just need to trim the part above its axle mount a bit.

- Chuck : my bump stops are stock, I plan on extending them as soon as I get an idea of how much I need to.

Again, tnx all and rgds