All this talk about inclined oil pressure has me thinkin'

[4ward]

Why can't we take the oil pickup and cut the tube and extend it so that the pickup nearly hits the back of the pan. That plus an extra couple quarts of oil should solve the issue, right?

Sean

[woody]

It ought to...

But what about decents...

[Safari Ary]

Can someone point me towards where this stemmed from?? Thanks

Ary

[Bones]

Why can't we take the oil pickup and cut the tube and extend it so that the pickup nearly hits the back of the pan.

Then aren't you going to vent on steep down hills?
http://images.fotki.com/v5/photos/4/42106/114517/MHTbackinsm-vi.jpg
While an extra couple of quarts may help at what point do you start getting into windage problems? It may not be a big thing for queens... err.. Trailer queens I mean, but those of us that drive to and (sometimes :rolleyes: ) fro events have to be concerned with road manners as well.

Bones

[Bones]

Can someone point me towards where this stemmed from?? Thanks

I think I started this one. Here is the link to that thread anyway.

Bones


http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5608

[4ward]

I thought about the downhills, but I'm not applying power when I'm going down. Also, I spend way more time sitting nose up than nose down. I've never once seen my pressure drop on a downhill, but everytime I'm sitting verticle I go to 0 psi. Wouldn't a crank scraper take care of the windage problems, or am I thinking of something else?

Bones, you need to pull your head out of your keister and realize it's time for you to either buy a tow rig or stock up on Uhaul vouchers.

Sean

[Ed A. Stevens]

The oil galleries feed the crank bearings before (at the same time) they feed the cam bearings. If you were starving the bearings for oil the rod bearings would be toast (rubbed into the copper) and the mains indicate wear as well.

Did they align the oiling holes on the cam bearings when they were installed?

I't not good to hear you have to rebuild, again, after such a short time.

[Grizzley]

OneTonXJ, the wiper/scraper works on race motor applications, more to stop "frothing" than starvation. If I was going as vertical as you guys, I'd think about getting one of those pressurized preoiling systems that kick in when ever the oil pressure drops. Sorry, my "Some-timers" has kicked in this morning and I can't remember the name. It is pressurized by the system and any time the pressure drops it fills the galleys with oil and then refills automatically when the pressure come back up.

[xj4rocks]

My 4.0 oil pan has a plate in it that is welded in right near the change from the sump to the thin part towards the front of the motor. this extends to right close to the pickup for the oil pump. This keeps oil from running to the front of the pan to a good extent.

[4ward]

grizzley, I believe we discussed exactly what you're alluding to in the link Bones provided.

xj4, I forgot about that piece. I wonder if it would be possible to just weld in a plate at the back of the pan also. I kinda doubt it though as it would probably not be able to be big enough and still fit around the pickup when putting the pan back on.

Sean

[rsalemi]

The 4.0 already has a baffle at the front (for decelleration -because Jeeps can generate more G forces on braking than on acceleration) and it should be possible to weld in a rear baffle (drag racers all do) and still have enough room to get the pan on over the oil pickup. this should help somewhat but at extreme angles you could still have loss of pressure.
Accusump makes a external cylinder that pressurizes oil and releases it to the bearings when needed - problem is it only holds 1 - 3 qts and might only provide a minute of protection. Works good on a drag racer but we only need 5 -10 seconds of pressure.

[Grant]

two words
Dry Sump

But that would be polishing a t*rd.

Jon Jacobs welded some baffling into a pan on one of his XJ's - I think, but that would not work for waterfall type vertical. The accusump is pretty good but with a finite volume to add.

What about adding to the existing oil pickup, but have the new pickup only work at extreme angles. It would take some thought and would require a "fail-to-safe" design but it could be done. Use some sort of valve similar to the roll over valves on fuel cells.

I am having my SBC dry sumped and one of the scavenge pumps is plumbed to scavenge both the valve covers and the front lower right of the sump. Theory is to allow the motor to run inverted for a short time, thus needing pickups in the covers. The pump either scavenges the sump or it scavenges the covers once 150 degrees of roll is passed. I will check how they are valving that.

The reservoir is a whole different story, looks like I have to go with one from an aerobatic plane and that is $$$$$. Most reservoirs only work upright.

[mbryson]

Originally posted by Grant
two words
Dry Sump

But that would be polishing a t*rd.

Jon Jacobs welded some baffling into a pan on one of his XJ's - I think, but that would not work for waterfall type vertical. The accusump is pretty good but with a finite volume to add.

What about adding to the existing oil pickup, but have the new pickup only work at extreme angles. It would take some thought and would require a "fail-to-safe" design but it could be done. Use some sort of valve similar to the roll over valves on fuel cells.

I am having my SBC dry sumped and one of the scavenge pumps is plumbed to scavenge both the valve covers and the front lower right of the sump. Theory is to allow the motor to run inverted for a short time, thus needing pickups in the covers. The pump either scavenges the sump or it scavenges the covers once 150 degrees of roll is passed. I will check how they are valving that.

The reservoir is a whole different story, looks like I have to go with one from an aerobatic plane and that is $$$$$. Most reservoirs only work upright.


Why is everybody so worried .....drive FAST up waterfalls.....:D???



I'm with Grant.......DRY SUMP, but you would need to address 'storage issues' for it to work as desired. {unless you could 'pressurize' the whole system and regulate it back down as it enters the block......

[4ward]

Ok folks, let's join the real world again. Think <$5 and some of my time, not over $500 and a whole bunch of my time.

To be honest, my comp buggy won't even have a dry sump. I don't want the added weight, plumbing, and storage issues. The only thing that will force me into dry sump will be my choice of axles causing oilpan interference.

Sean

[Jump This]

You all are too much...just love reading your banter....
Solve it all this way...bring and extra engine with you next time...
Rick

[XJguy]

Ahhh, just add an oil accumulator and be done with your worries. Problem solved...maybe you can even add a few in series if 3 quarts are not enough.

XJguy

[4ward]

XJguy, you need to get out and gain some experience to see why they won't work for us and also possibly read what I stated in the other oil thread that's been linked in this thread.

Oil accumulators are for racers, not for my vertical tendencies. Plus they are high dollar and cause multitudes of space and plumbing problems.

Jump, you funny boy.

Sean

[mbryson]

I really can't think of a 'cool' answer, Sean. I was just thinking about one of those big flat Moroso type pans (like on an early Chevy II) with an extra 4 quarts or so, spread out over about a 2'x2'x4" area under the XJ (not that wouldn't interfere with the suspension or anything, but one thing at a time) and if you hung on something long enough, you're just going to run out of oil after a while.

Would a heavier oil work better? Maybe some 20-50 or something with an additive--{Slick 50 or Duralube type deal}? The heavy oil and the additive -could- save the bearings, but not for a long period of time (unless you truly believe those Sat. morning informercials :D where they run Viper V10's on the track with 'No Oil' :rolleyes: ). It might extend it long enough to get up a long waterfall, but the only time I've really had trouble is when someone is trying to take a picture or I break something on a steep incline. I just turn the sucka off then and figure out what to do from there......(automatic and I just hold the brake and listen to what 'observers' are telling me)


I guess what I'm asking, is 1) what exactly are you trying to do --get up a steep incline-- and 2) how long do you need to hold the pressure--I'm thinking 20-30 seconds tops....if it's longer, I usually try to back down and 'recover'--sometimes not possible or desireable, though?

I don't think an extra quart will make the crank come in contact with the oil, but that would need to be tested on an engine out of the rig......hmmmmmm......I'm kind of understanding what you are talking about, but don't know of a 'cool' way to solve it without the 'baffle' idea and some of the above. Even then, it's still time contingent. On a 'trail only' trim, an extra quart might be fine. I wouldn't want to run down the interstate with the crank hitting 'puddled' oil in the pan, but it might be OK for trail runs......

[4ward]

Well, my last time out I was stuck in a verticle situation for well over 10 mins. and needed to keep the heep running as I was trying anything and everything to make the obstacle. I was able to back down some, but I know that I starved the motor for more than 3-4 minutes of that run time. That was under hard power bursts also. I think I'm gonna drop the pan, take some measurements and extend the pickup towards the back and see where that takes me. Should only be a couple of hours of wrenching and welding anyhow. Be a good way to test out the TIG :D

Sean

[mbryson]

Originally posted by OneTonXJ
Well, my last time out I was stuck in a verticle situation for well over 10 mins. and needed to keep the heep running as I was trying anything and everything to make the obstacle. I was able to back down some, but I know that I starved the motor for more than 3-4 minutes of that run time. That was under hard power bursts also. I think I'm gonna drop the pan, take some measurements and extend the pickup towards the back and see where that takes me. Should only be a couple of hours of wrenching and welding anyhow. Be a good way to test out the TIG :D

Sean

TIG--NICE!!!!!


I figured you'd be looking at over 2-3 minutes.......10 minutes.....that is an 'interesting' problem.......hmmmm


This may or may not be a good thing.......hear me out. What if you added an extra 'boss' to the pickup tube. Get an 'oil resistant' hose/tube {whatever} and have that 'flop' around to get the to the rear of the pan when it's on an incline.

That could be 'bad'---you might make the 'normal' pickup screen assembly more ineffective than it already is due to pressure loss under 'normal' circumstances--I don't know if any of the comp boys are worried much about this from what I've seen. (sure could be wrong though)


On funky road racers (not stock based), they use a swinging pickup assembly to keep the pickup in the oil 'puddle' in the pan (I've only seen the pickup in like 10-12 year old catalogs and I don't remember the exact application). I would think NASCAR dudes on a superspeedway will have to set up the oil pickup for the right side of the pan somehow. There's no way the oil is going to stay 'flat' at those kind of forces.

I think for your problem you are going to need to extend the pickup to the far rear of the pan somehow. Same principle, just different execution (unless you do the dry sump thing :D ) to get the pickup to where the oil goes, but still work at 'level'.........some oil is ALWAYS better than none, but some is not always enough.....I'm curious to see what you come up with TIG man.

[XJguy]

Sean, in the Warrior I have an electronic preoiler made by Mallory. It can be set up to run manually or automatically, you can put the pickup for it anywhere on the pan you wish. When in auto mode it circulates oil in your engine before the engine starts and can be set to circulate oil after shut down for cool down period in turbo vehicles and at times of low oil pressure.

By the way I have seen several serious off roaders and rock crawler with accumulators.......anyway they might not be cheap but they cost less than a new engine ;)

XJguy

[MudDawg]

How about a pair of electric pumps...plumb a check valve to each and hook up in parallel to the existing oiling system...they could be activated by a pair of tilt sensors...Use one pump from the front of the pan if you are nose down, the other in the rear if you are nose up...this would add very little to the oil volume. I figure if it supplies at least some oil it would be better than slowly toasting your motor.

[Willis]

I like the baffle idea. I'd take my pan off, put 6 qts of water in it, and start tipping the pan at different angles. Mock up a pick up tube, and figure out the best place to put the tube, and where to add the baffle(s). I have to agree on moving the pickup more rearward. Sure on extreme downhills, you may starve the engine of oil, but you are not under load. I've seen engines run hours at idle, no load, with no oil in them.

[JJacobs]

Moroso sells pan kits with swinging trap doors and other fun stuff. That, or an accumulator or several would be the way to go IMHO

I just put rod bearings in every six months.

[FlxnXJ]

If somebody figures this one out let me know. Iam on my 3rd engine (4.0L), pretty much go through one a year. Like they say gotta pay to play right :P