M.O.R.E. plagarism

[bgcntry72]

I was perusing the www . mountainoffroad . com site and came across their 'rockproof' line of bumpers. If you look at the one for the XJ, it costs $476 and is an EXACT knockoff of the BPI front bumper, which sells for $308, unpainted and unshipped. You can find it at http://www.bpifab.com/bumper/cherokee.htm I placed a call to BPI and was told that they made a bumper and sold it to M.O.R.E. and they, too, were surprised that it was now somehow being sold with a M.O.R.E. logo. M.O.R.E. makes a point to say that they no longer weld on the eyelets, and that you will have to have that done yourself, after they sell you the eyelets at an additional price. Gee, I wonder why.
Tim Osborn at Blender Products (BPI) is great to deal with, responsive, fair, and a man of his word. I have his front bumper, rear bumper, and am currently awaiting rear quarter panel covers. It burns me to see someone using his design and passing it off as their own.
I would now never even consider buying something from www . mountainoffroad . com , regardless of their other products.
Thanks for listening and lets try to let those people who want to help the offroading community continue to do so, while doing our part to root out the other 'unsavory' types.

[XJguy]

Unfortunately without a patent they are fully in their right to copy other people's design wether its ethical or not. This is the dilemma I face in introducing my own products and wny I have not shown what I already have made until I am ready to ship.

Patent process can exceed $10,000 in research and legal fees per product. Then, even if you do have a patent you still have to hire an attorney to defend your patent should someone infring upon it. So unless you or the other party is selling millions of dollars worth of the design it usually is not worth it.

XJguy

[bgcntry72]

I understand your point fully. Mine is that BPI is not getting rich selling bumpers. Their stuff is of tremendous quality considering their prices. If something is wrong or doesnt fit properly, a call to them has a reworked part in the mail. BPI overnighted new brackets to me at no charge because some of my parts did not work with the original ones. I faxed him a design of what I wanted changed and he mailed them out that day, painted.
My purpose was to point any perspective customers in the right direction, as well as to acknowledge outstanding customer service and workmanship, two things that all of us wish we could find more of.
Copying a disign is one thing, but M.O.R.E. actually bought a bumper from BPI, and is now tagging it as their own. M.O.R.E. is better known than BPI, if only for their motor mounts. To me this flys in the face of 'little guy' engineering.
Interesting input on patents, though.

[xjblue]

Well, if M.O.R.E. is reselling BPI bumpers after buying them from BPI, BPI is still getting paid for making the bumper so to me it is not such a big deal if they stick thier own name on the product. It hopefully helps BPI sell more bumpers by doing so. I've worked in two industries, pagers and teleconferencing, where the same service was sold through a second party under the second party name, It's a very common practice, anything sodl "retail" is the same basic concept now that I think about it. Not to harp on steering people in the right direction so don't get me wrong, this is the kind of info that makes NAXJA great for XJ owners! Just goes to show that researching a product before purchase is really important.

[Eagle]

I'm not a patent attorney, but I think XJguy is confusing "patent" with "copyright."

You can't get a patent on something unless it is new and radically different from anything else. At one time, for example, the concept of a "bumper" on the front of an automobile could have been patented. Once that happened, any front bumper that used functional design features substantially similar to the patented design would have been in violation.

However, bumpers per se aren't patented. Auto manufacturers all make bumpers, and lots and lots of after-market companies make bumpers. You can't "patent" a bumper.

What you can do, though, and for a lot less than the $10,000 XJguy cited, is register a copyright on your particular bumper design. Architectural designs for buildings can be copyrighted, so if I design a house or an office building for a client, any time that client (or anyone else) builds a building that looks the same I can sue for copyright infringement.

The same is true for anything that is designed. Register tha design, and then anyone who makes one that looks the same has to pay royalties to use your design. In fact, if the rules for the general business world work like they do for architects, you don't even need to make a prototype -- all you neeed to do is draw up the design and file a copy with the appropriate government office.

There's an MJ owner near me who is a patent attorney. If anyone is serious about looking into this, hit me with a PM and I'll put you in contact with him.

[Fore Wheeler]

well, look at springs. Rusty sells springs that are made by someone else, Big Off Road sells springs with his name on them that are made by Alcan, it's all about being the middle man, he too makes money, he saves money by being able to sell quanity, saves on advertising and sales time. I'd much rather sell a boat load of product X to one guy for a reduced price and have him put his name on it than sell the same boat load to 100 different people. It's all business.

[XJguy]

Having an agreement to re-label a product is one thing. Making a copy of someone elses product is another thing all together. Perhaps I misunderstood. I have larger companies with big heavy duty machinery make some of my components too, but they are of my design and we have an agreement that the parts are exclusive to me and are to be marketed as a product made by PUV. So although they are "made" by PUV, the actual fabrication is done by others. Every car company does the same thing, everything is outsourced nowadays, yet they still have the GM or Ford stamp on them. The days when Ford used to even make their own tires and glass are long gone.

XJguy

[bgcntry72]

Allow me to clear the air a bit.
I understand the difference between a reseller and a plagarist, but thank you for the clarification.
BPI told me they sold ONE bumper to M.O.R.E.
They were not happy to see it on the mountain offroad site as the 'new' xj winch bumper.
I love the products and service I get from BPI, so I post to let others know what is up.
M.O.R.E. is better known than BPI, and I am doing my (admittedly small) part to change that, nothing more.

[Eagle]

Originally posted by bgcntry72
BPI told me they sold ONE bumper to M.O.R.E.
They were not happy to see it on the mountain offroad site as the 'new' xj winch bumper.
I love the products and service I get from BPI, so I post to let others know what is up.
M.O.R.E. is better known than BPI, and I am doing my (admittedly small) part to change that, nothing more.

Your position is clear and I agree with you -- a company should not be ripping off someone else's design and selling it as their own. It's an unfortunate reality that M.O.R.E can probably get away with this if the original designer didn't take steps to protect his/her/their intellectual property, I don't know if it's too late to do so now, but I suspect it is.

And, as XJguy said, there is a world of difference between a small vendor having something "private labeled," and a company stealing a design and fabbing their own copies with no payment to the originator. Frankly, I'm bummed out to learn that M.O.R.E. would stoop so low. Has anyone confronted them on the issue?

[pair8hd]

I think it is unfair to judge M.O.R.E on one person's hearsay. We are just getting one side of the story. If everyone is so concerned about BPI's welfare, why don't you call M.O.R.E and tell them this story. Sure M.O.R.E may have copied the BPI's design, but if BPI is not happy with that they need to contact their lawyer and see if they have a leg to stand on.


bgcntry72: You are taking this way too personal. From having talked to some manufacturer's and owners of businesses in this industry, this happens all the time (in this industry and others). Some manufacturers will even call other manufacturers and ask details on construction, mounting, etc. on products.

BTW - Why do you feel it is necessary to post this in all the other Jeep/XJ forums? Do you think you uncovered a big conspiracy? You are wasting bandwidth.

[Tom R.]

Originally posted by Eagle
I'm not a patent attorney, but I think XJguy is confusing "patent" with "copyright."


It was easier for me to copy and paste, so here goes...

A patent for an invention is the grant of a property right to the inventor, issued by the Patent and Trademark Office. The term of a new patent is 20 years from the date on which the application for the patent was filed in the United States or, in special cases, from the date an earlier related application was filed, subject to the payment of maintenance fees. US patent grants are effective only within the US, US territories, and US possessions.

The right conferred by the patent grant is, in the language of the statute and of the grant itself, “the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, or selling” the invention in the United States or “importing” the invention into the United States. What is granted is not the right to make, use, offer for sale, sell or import, but the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, selling or importing the invention.

Copyright is a form of protection provided to the authors of “original works of authorship” including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and certain other intellectual works, both published and unpublished. The 1976 Copyright Act generally gives the owner of copyright the exclusive right to reproduce the copyrighted work, to prepare derivative works, to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work, to perform the copyrighted work publicly, or to display the copyrighted work publicly.

The copyright protects the form of expression rather than the subject matter of the writing. For example, a description of a machine could be copyrighted, but this would only prevent others from copying the description; it would not prevent others from writing a description of their own or from making and using the machine.

I just learned about this stuff in my Accounting II class.:) Hope this helps.

Tom

[bgcntry72]

Long story short.
I spoke with BPI, and he is not entirely pleased.
The guy at BPI spoke with the guy at M.O.R.E., who said he has no intention of buying bumpers from BPI, just copying the one he bought.
I guess its my bad for defending a good guy and a great idea.
As to calling my post 'heresay', you can feel free to take that up with me in person.
I am seriously considering never posting on this board again.
I joined here as a way of thanking NAXJA for all the great answers and ideas I get here, not to be labeled as a source of bad info by some ***hole(s).
I wish I was as much of an expert as you, really.

side note: MORE was a damn good company with great service, until Chris Overacker sold it not too long ago.

and another.............Thx Trl Wgn. The price hike has been since the new ownership at MORE has been in effect.

[gearwhine]

Originally posted by pair8hd

BTW - Why do you feel it is necessary to post this in all the other Jeep/XJ forums? Do you think you uncovered a big conspiracy? You are wasting bandwidth.

I couldn't agree more, I saw it on JU, and now here. They are two business' which i'm sure know what's going on. If there is a problem, they will figure something out. I can't really think of a reason this is that important

I found out burger king and mcdonalds have the same cheeseburgers. Ahh crap. _nicko_

[TRL WGN 1]

I don't see the harm in posting about this for others to see. Maybe you are a supporter of MORE and don't want others to know, but it never hurts for people to know the truth.
Personally I am not a big fan of MORE because of their price mark up that they are so good at.
For example, they sell the driveshaft adapter to adapt our u-joint to an 8.8. MORE gets 49 bucks for this, when it can be purchased many other places for ~25. It is just a Spicer part. This is a rip off to many people, but if the people don't know better then it isn't their fault. Big Country is obviously just trying to inform people to keep others from being ripped off of several dollars

[Lupine]

Heresay is not a derogatory term. No one is insulting you.

If you are taking an internet disagreement seriously, and are feeling like boycotting websites over it, you need to call BPI or M.O.R.E. for some body armour of your own, 'cause your skin is way too thin.

Check your dictionary.

[JnJ]

I've purchased stuff from M.O.R.E. and had no problems, will do so again if they have what I need. Make my own bumpers, so I careless about that.

[dmillion]

I don't think this posting was inappropriate or a waste of bandwidth. It is good for all of us to know what kind of people we're dealing with. In fact, that's probably the best thing about a forum like this.

I would be interested to hear more details from more than one source. No offense to the original poster, but I like to get some confirmation. If the story is true then M.O.R.E. has acted in a totally unethical manner, in my opinion. You can't patent a bumper and you can't copyright a bumper, but I would think there must be something that BPI can do. On the other hand, even if there is, it might not be worth the cost for them to pursue it.

[bgcntry72]

Shoot me a PM or email bgcntry72@yahoo.com if you want to know the whole shootin' match.

[2offroad]

I don't go on hardly any other Jeep/XJ forums so this info is new to me. I think any info about other people’s experiences with companies is good, so that you as 1 person can made an informed choice about how you deal with companies. so this thread is not a waste of bandwith. IMHO

but most of my posts are.

[ChiXJeff]

Hang on a sec, bgcntry72, don't get your knickers in a knot.

For the remainder of this post, I'll assume that what you've said is indeed the case (and I suspect that it is.....)

Unfortunately, this is not an uncommon practice, and it's not limited to the off-road vhicle guys, or automotive in general. Unless you take steps to protect your invention, intellectual property, etc. you should expect to see someone else take it and clone it. This is a problem that ALL small innovators face.

For instance, the guys down at JB Conversions claim that the Teraflex 2lo kit is an off-shore manufactured kit that was lifted directly from their product. JB can't compete because their cost to produce is higher than what Teraflex is selling it for.

I've noted your posts elsewhere, and I do appreciate your tone in bringing up. Clear, concise, to the point, and you've used reasonable language (i.e. something you can tell to Mom.)

This wouldn't have changed my mind about using the M.O.R.E. motor mounts, but I'll have to give serious thought to buying anything else from them.

[dmillion]

Might be common, but that doesn't make it right.

[Ed A. Stevens]

Originally posted by dmillion
Might be common, but that doesn't make it right.


Yes, but sometimes the result is justified (and sometimes you have to take a closer look).

The practice of copying and improving upon another's product is very common, and the "improvement" can be in the form of a lower price as well as a difference in construction. Unless the design is protected by copyright (and even a copyright has limitations) then the design is open for cloning.

I may not respect a clone with zero improvement other than price, but there is a difference that fits the needs of most buyers (the lower price).

In this case (as I read the topic), BPI can offer improved features and benefits that justify the difference in price, or they can improve the manufacturing economics and improve on the price (or both). BPI can offer a superior product, and beat M.O.R.E. (and the quality service you report is a buyers consideration).

This is the nature of competition, and this competition is good for the off-road and XJ world of accessories. If everyone who had a cloning complaint was allowed rights equal to a patent or copyright we would all be driving around XJ's with POS round tube American-Metal Rocker guards (and we would be paying dearly for a design the A-M owner copied from a small fabricator).

I respect the loyalty expressed for BPI, and the topic is worth the electrons to read (quality service deserves praise). You mention a difference between the two bumpers (BPI & M.O.R.E.) and I would like details why BPI is a better value for the dollar?

[Safari Ary]

Ed, the BPI is CHEAPER than the MORE clone. MORE is copying their bumper and marking it up. Which in theory would lead customers back to BPI anyway, maybe that's how they have a clear conscience about it. However, I suppose MORE is making bank on those that don't know about BPI.

As for this post/cross posting being a waste of bandwidth I disagree, there are tons of people that only read one or two boards. bgcntry72 felt it was something that needed to be brought up, so he spoke, that's what these forums are for.

Ary

[woody]

I think in general that stealing another's idea without compensating the originator is bad JuJu.

I can see taking a general idea and improving...but theft is theft.

It's hard enough to have a groundbreaking idea in any aspect of mechanical improvement...but to have another steal/copy one would suck! (Tis why best ideas are patented first?)

If BPI truly is the original...and is less expensive than MORE, well the cream settles to the top. If enough folks buy BPI and scorn MORE then BPI will succeed.

This is a small community...folks wanting to rip folks off & middleman-upcharge on other vendors products get their ways called out pretty quick...(like you folks offering 'great deals' on Mile Marker winches a few months ago)

Some products command a premium price, due to superior materials, workmanship, and/or customer service.

[FatXJ]

If I was BPI I would put a big fat label on my bumpers saying "the same as a MORE for $100 less!" What's MORE going to do?

[Ed A. Stevens]

Originally posted by FatXJ
If I was BPI I would put a big fat label on my bumpers saying "the same as a MORE for $100 less!" What's MORE going to do?


This is what I like to read, because it boils the issue down to basics: BPI has a better product for a better price.

If this was the approach, rather than focusing the complaint on plagarism, then adding a comment that M.O.R.E. copied the BPI bumper (and did such a poor job of besting the original) would be better recieved. I really don't care about cloning a non-copyright product, but doing it poorly speaks volumes about the clone producer (they do not care about the product, or the customer, enough to produce quality).

[Danno]

is that basically nobody has heard of them. I'm constantly checking out new web sites, advertising etc. dealing with 4x4 equipment and have spent thousands of $$$ (oops, wife's looking) HUNDREDS of $$$ buying stuff and have never heard of BPI. Now I'll check them out and maybe buy from them. I'm always looking for good quality and good prices. They need to be advertising on NAXJA's web site!! Danno

[Drewlee77]

I find it both sad and amusing that in the name of the Almighty Dollar (or yen, or pound, or whatever your currency might be) normally ethical men will sacrifice their integrity and justify it as "business". Despite what anyone what might say, what is ethical does not change just because you are wearing a suit and tie. Stealing something from a person or a business is the same - just because it is common or legal does not make it right. If MORE wants to sell BPI's design they need to secure some sort of deal with BPI first. It's just that simple.
Any law can be circumvented in some way or another, so merely claiming legality does not make it right. Now since I'm only saying what has already been said, I'll be quiet...

But I would like to second the praise of BPI... not only have I been VERY pleased with the quality and design of my bumper, but I was even more impressed with the customer service I received when ordering it. I needed no more proof that Tim was a good man (at least, not greedy) when I ordered my bumper. I called relatively early in the morning and ordered the bumper, later that day he called me back and told me they had decided to have an xmas special with free shipping so the bumper was going to be about 40-50 bucks cheaper! That's alot of cost to eat for someone who had already ordered the bumper, and was happy with it (that is, it's not like I called and complained and he was just trying to make me happy). Maybe yall have had experiences like that with businesses - but I have not had many. All that to say, BPI gets my two thumbs up...

[basalt51]

Originally posted by Dan Riggs
is that basically nobody has heard of them. I'm constantly checking out new web sites, advertising etc. dealing with 4x4 equipment and have spent thousands of $$$ (oops, wife's looking) HUNDREDS of $$$ buying stuff and have never heard of BPI. Now I'll check them out and maybe buy from them. I'm always looking for good quality and good prices. They need to be advertising on NAXJA's web site!! Danno

I think that BPI is at the stage where they are getting orders as fast as they can make bumpers. Advertising would just make things worse. They would then go the way of AEV when they are getting back logged and have a waiting list of several months.

That said, do a search on YAHOO for "Cherokee Bumper" Who's at the top of the list? BPI! But the forums are where the real information lies. I was actually wanting M.O.R.E. to come out with a XJ bumper becuase I liked their high clearance wranger bumpers.

It was all the jeep forums that lead to my final decision to buy and BPI bumper because everyone that has one is exceptionally happy. Just ask Fatwreck, he's had four!!!

And it's BGCNTRY's posts on all these various forums that will lead several people that wanted the MORE xj bumper to realize they can get a better one for much cheaper, from a guy with INCREDIBLE customer service, who is willing to modify his bumpers any way necessary to fit your application.

[ChEwBaCcA]

Happens ALL the time.... Im not just talking about business to business but also business to customer.
IE: Look how many cheap a$$'s on this forum wanted Big Offroads specs for their Alcan springs.......people were beating John John up for the EXACT specs. He bought a few different packs and did the testing to find out what WORKS.....It cost Big Offroad money to do the R&D and some people are unwilling to give him an honest profit and want to buy factory direct...................... you want to buy factory direct fine.... you do the testing and pick your figures and if you screw it up....oh well should have bought from BO in the first place....

peace
chewy

[4ward]

Ok folks, before you go smashing down this company and that for "copying" some else's junk. Are you sure that the materials are the same? Are you sure that the manufacturing process is the same? Are you sure that the quality is the same? I can make the same thing that someone else does, but what happens when I make an improvement on it? Am I supposed to sell it for the same price as the inferior product with less time and materials? I'm not saying this is the case, but has anybody bought both these bumpers and laid them side by side to see the differences (if any)? I don't think we can bomb one company or another until that is brought out to the clear. Otherwise, it's just some people jumping on the bandwagon of someone else's point of view.

Sean

[fatwreck]

Originally posted by OneTonXJ
Ok folks, before you go smashing down this company and that for "copying" some else's junk. Are you sure that the materials are the same? Are you sure that the manufacturing process is the same? Are you sure that the quality is the same? I can make the same thing that someone else does, but what happens when I make an improvement on it? Am I supposed to sell it for the same price as the inferior product with less time and materials? I'm not saying this is the case, but has anybody bought both these bumpers and laid them side by side to see the differences (if any)? I don't think we can bomb one company or another until that is brought out to the clear. Otherwise, it's just some people jumping on the bandwagon of someone else's point of view.

Sean

I see what you are saying, but from the pictures they sure look identical to me:
http://www.mountainoffroad.com/catalog/Bumpers/08.jpg
http://www.projectxj.com/images/temp/IMG_0704.JPG

Materials? Probably not too different.

Process? Probably doesn't matter in this case.

If you did make a signifcant improvement, I can see why you would charge more. However, I don't believe one has been made....if any....and $100+ more expensive.....come on. :rolleyes:

[ChEwBaCcA]

#1 the design is ok at best IMO
#2 it doesnt line up or hang worth a s*&^ on the XJ
#3 wouldnt buy one for $100

chewy

[ChEwBaCcA]

also what makes it so original>?
looks like 100"s of homemade weld and grind jobs Ive seen on Naxja over the years....
Now if your doing something few people have done, like full laser cut and some crazy hi tech powder coat, youd have reason to be pissed................

Before anyone screams about their design they should drill the mounting holes correct so the bumper lines up and has a flat pitch!
Chewy

[Eagle]

Originally posted by drewlee77
I find it both sad and amusing that in the name of the Almighty Dollar (or yen, or pound, or whatever your currency might be) normally ethical men will sacrifice their integrity and justify it as "business". Despite what anyone what might say, what is ethical does not change just because you are wearing a suit and tie. Stealing something from a person or a business is the same - just because it is common or legal does not make it right. ... Any law can be circumvented in some way or another, so merely claiming legality does not make it right. Now since I'm only saying what has already been said, I'll be quiet...

Very well said. The fact that BPI is too small to have thought it necessary to copyright their design does not make it "okay" for M.O.R.E. or any other company to clone it with no compensation to the designer(s). It might not be illegal but it is certainly immoral (or, perhaps, "amoral") and unethical, and I feel very sad to see people on these forums trying to excuse and condone such behavior. This is what's gradually killing off business in the United States -- a total lack of corporate ethics and corporate responsibility.