Cheap (relatively) axles thought?

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Ok, I was going to post in Scrappys axle thread, but decided to start my own. I was just thinking of how I could get what I want without doing alot of big money spending and came up with the following thought. There may be problems with what I'm thinking, but here goes:

Desires:

High pinion rear axle
High pinion front axle
Not too heavy
Desire to build it myself
front joints bigger than 760's

Thought:

Purchase a HP60 Ford front axle

Cut the ends off and extend one tube if necessary using a sleeve and weld method.

Use short side semi float 35 spline D60 axle shafts from a van
Width comes out to 63" as I'm told by a friend
These shafts are C-clip though
Can the C-clip portion be cut off and a different pressed on outer bearing and seal be installed to use big bearing Ford ends on the housing?

Fill housing with ARB and 5.38 gears

Rear done

Purchase a HP D44 front end (I have one already)

Cut the ends off and install the D60 ends using whatever means is necessary since the 60 tubes are larger in diameter, right? A sleeve would probably need to be machined to mate the 2.75" tubes on the D44 to the 3"? D60 inner c's.

Have custom shafts made that will fit a 33 spline D44 ARB and use D60 joints as that is the biggest shaft one can fit in the D44 carrier, right? I don't know if these would be more than any other custom length alloy shaft?

Use the 60 outer parts swapping to 35 spline outers when and if needed.

Front end done

Run 38" or 40" Tires on these axles in my MJ.

Thoughts?

[David Taylor]

The words "cheap" and "custom" never go together. Any really good custom axle
that you put together yourself will be in the 2500-3000 range. No way around it. The good stuff always costs big money.

[rockwerks]

The words "cheap" and "custom" never go together. Any really good custom axle
that you put together yourself will be in the 2500-3000 range. No way around it. The good stuff always costs big money.

wrong: I did my Hp 44 front with waggy axles, detroit 4:56 gears and custom mounts for about half that.

axle housing and waggy axle shafts new brakes and rotors 225.00
gears, install kit and detroit soft locker all new 625.00
brackets, cutting discs, welding wire, gas, seals, etc 125.00
premium locking hubs 75.00


labor FREE, did all myself from cutting down the axle
housing and rotating the knuckles to fit waggy axles
and making all needed brackets

grand total 1050.00

zuzu dana 44 rear (NON HP) gears locker disc brakes
new mouonts, brake line adapters, mics 975.00

total for both axles 2025.00

If you are willing to shop hard and look for deals and do the work yourself you can save a ton of money!

[XJoachim]

Right.

You can't use bolt-in bearings on a c-clip axle shaft, that's not possible. You have to change axle shafts and the outers.

Why don't you just purchase another Ford HP 60 for the front and sell the 44, would be no cost difference and the weight difference is not that big. Besides that you get bigger axle tubes and no custom shafts.

[XJoachim]

wrong: I did my Hp 44 front with waggy axles, detroit 4:56 gears and custom mounts for about half that.

axle housing and waggy axle shafts new brakes and rotors 225.00
gears, install kit and detroit soft locker all new 625.00
brackets, cutting discs, welding wire, gas, seals, etc 125.00
premium locking hubs 75.00


labor FREE, did all myself from cutting down the axle
housing and rotating the knuckles to fit waggy axles
and making all needed brackets

grand total 1050.00

zuzu dana 44 rear (NON HP) gears locker disc brakes
new mouonts, brake line adapters, mics 975.00

total for both axles 2025.00

If you are willing to shop hard and look for deals and do the work yourself you can save a ton of money!
Have you looked at what he plans to do with the front 44?

[Jes]

Ummm, I think Dave is talking about the cost to build a front-end that won't break easily.
You'd have to add alloy axle shafts and strong u-joints which costs about $1000.

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

The words "cheap" and "custom" never go together. Any really good custom axle
that you put together yourself will be in the 2500-3000 range. No way around it. The good stuff always costs big money.

I agree with this and that's why I said "relatively." I can see spending MANY more bucks to get something like what I want. I know there are MANY different options out there, but what I outlined could be built by me...if it would work, and would end up fulfilling all my goals. Jeff

Oh, I could build D44's relatively cheap too (much cheaper than what I outlined for sure,) but I'm looking for something better. Jeff

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Right.

You can't use bolt-in bearings on a c-clip axle shaft, that's not possible. You have to change axle shafts and the outers.

Why don't you just purchase another Ford HP 60 for the front and sell the 44, would be no cost difference and the weight difference is not that big. Besides that you get bigger axle tubes and no custom shafts.

Thanks for the inf. on the c-clip shafts. That's too bad. I have a friend that built a rear c-clip 60 from a van by cutting one side tube down and using two short side shafts. Width came out to 63" and I figured I could perhaps use these same shafts in a HP housing. I guess that's not going to work. As for the idea of using a 60 front and 60 rear, they are quite expensive straight from the junk yard and VERY heavy. I thought I could combine ONE HP 60 with the HP 44 and come up with strong HP front and rear axles. Jeff

[David Taylor]

wrong: I did my Hp 44 front with waggy axles, detroit 4:56 gears and custom mounts for about half that.

axle housing and waggy axle shafts new brakes and rotors 225.00
gears, install kit and detroit soft locker all new 625.00
brackets, cutting discs, welding wire, gas, seals, etc 125.00
premium locking hubs 75.00


labor FREE, did all myself from cutting down the axle
housing and rotating the knuckles to fit waggy axles
and making all needed brackets

grand total 1050.00

zuzu dana 44 rear (NON HP) gears locker disc brakes
new mouonts, brake line adapters, mics 975.00

total for both axles 2025.00

If you are willing to shop hard and look for deals and do the work yourself you can save a ton of money!


Cool, LP and stock shafts. Sounds like a huge upgrade. Stock zuzu rear 44
with stock shafts. Is this any better than a stock xj 44?
Where talking about building strong axles here not using junk yard left overs.

[CRASH]

Ummm, I think Dave is talking about the cost to build a front-end that won't break easily.
You'd have to add alloy axle shafts and strong u-joints which costs about $1000.

Don't forget to add 35 spline shafts for the rear.

Good Lawd, we go through enough D-44 parts on 35" tires, I can't begin to imagine running 40's on a D-44.

Found more broken chit last night. :wierd:

CRASH

[rockwerks]

Don't forget to add 35 spline shafts for the rear.

Good Lawd, we go through enough D-44 parts on 35" tires, I can't begin to imagine running 40's on a D-44.

Found more broken chit last night. :wierd:

CRASH

what amazes me is how we complain about breaking stock 44 chit when the fullsize blazer guys run em with 37" to 40" all the time and very little problems....maybe a little less on the skinny peddle? and one other thing to remember you have to leave a weak spot in the easy to repair drive train.....if you build axles to the hilt what is gonna break next? Id much rather replace an axle shaft on the trail rather than other drive train parts

[Jes]

what amazes me is how we complain about breaking stock 44 chit when the fullsize blazer guys run em with 37" to 40" all the time and very little problems....

Where does that happen? In fantasy land?

[CRASH]

what amazes me is how we complain about breaking stock 44 chit when the fullsize blazer guys run em with 37" to 40" all the time and very little problems....maybe a little less on the skinny peddle? and one other thing to remember you have to leave a weak spot in the easy to repair drive train.....if you build axles to the hilt what is gonna break next? Id much rather replace an axle shaft on the trail rather than other drive train parts

Would you consider a hub hard to replace? That's the Dana 44 fuse when you have good alloy shafts and good U-joints.

Fresh Warn hubs are stronger than stock shafts and 760's.

CRASH

[BrettM]

Purchase a HP60 Ford front axle

Cut the ends off and extend one tube if necessary using a sleeve and weld ... Rear done



One thing to look into; can you use a stock HP60 in a rear application? My understanding is the aftermarket HP60 centers have different oil passages to allow proper oiling with the ring gear turning the wrong way.

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

As far as I know, the oiling issue isn't that big of a deal, but I'm no expert. Here is a couple articles showing how the tubes were lengthened by others:

http://www.bc4x4.com/tech/2000/highpiniond60rear/highpiniond60rear.cfm

http://www.bc4x4.com/tech/2001/hpd60front/

http://www.4x4wire.com/jeep/tech/axle/yjrcdana60/

I guess my plan is still perhaps doable if I use aftermarket rear axle shafts...at least for a rear axle. How about the D44 front with D60 outers? Doable? Decent idea? Stupid idea? :) Jeff

[rockwerks]

Would you consider a hub hard to replace? That's the Dana 44 fuse when you have good alloy shafts and good U-joints.

Fresh Warn hubs are stronger than stock shafts and 760's.

CRASH


true what about the rear.....full floater I would guess...adn how many axles hvae you destroyed with the hubs locked in? usually the damage is caused by a spinning u joint bearing cap, it fails and takes out the axles... full circle clips and soild type u joints worked great in the 454 blazer I used to own in LHC...never broke another shaft.

[Kittrell]

How about the D44 front with D60 outers? Doable? Decent idea? Stupid idea? :) Jeff

Very doable, but I would just break down and buy the crane outers. With what your trying to do, I think it would be easier.................:dunno:

[CRASH]

Where's Lincoln when you need him? He's deep into the planning of this, though it will likely never happen, as it takes him two weeks to install a hub as it is.



As far as I know, the oiling issue isn't that big of a deal, but I'm no expert. Here is a couple articles showing how the tubes were lengthened by others:

http://www.bc4x4.com/tech/2000/highpiniond60rear/highpiniond60rear.cfm

http://www.bc4x4.com/tech/2001/hpd60front/

http://www.4x4wire.com/jeep/tech/axle/yjrcdana60/

I guess my plan is still perhaps doable if I use aftermarket rear axle shafts...at least for a rear axle. How about the D44 front with D60 outers? Doable? Decent idea? Stupid idea? :) Jeff

[CRASH]

true what about the rear.....full floater I would guess...adn how many axles hvae you destroyed with the hubs locked in? usually the damage is caused by a spinning u joint bearing cap, it fails and takes out the axles... full circle clips and soild type u joints worked great in the 454 blazer I used to own in LHC...never broke another shaft.


Well, I guess I'm going to have to modify my "Axles for Rocks" thread now that this new info has come to light.

CRASH

[Jes]

:confused1

[BrettM]

Well, I guess I'm going to have to modify my "Axles for Rocks" thread now that this new info has come to light.

CRASH
it all makes sense now! i need a stroker so i'll break less D44 shafts...

[JeepFreak21]

Where does that happen? In fantasy land?

At the mall.
Billy

[Gil BullyKatz]

Cool, LP and stock shafts. Sounds like a huge upgrade. Stock zuzu rear 44
with stock shafts. Is this any better than a stock xj 44?
Where talking about building strong axles here not using junk yard left overs.

seems to me anything other than a Dana 30/35 combo would be a huge upgrade...

:D

[Paul S]

seems to me anything other than a Dana 30/35 combo would be a huge upgrade...

:D

I'd consider a front 44 with stock shafts a downgrade.
And for about $1000 you could put alloy inners, outers & CTM's in a 30 & have a much more reliable & much better front axle than a 44 with stock shafts, at least it would be better on the trail, maybe not on the web though.
hasta

Paul

[Gil BullyKatz]

I'd consider a front 44 with stock shafts a downgrade.
And for about $1000 you could put alloy inners, outers & CTM's in a 30 & have a much more reliable & much better front axle than a 44 with stock shafts, at least it would be better on the trail, maybe not on the web though.
hasta

Paul


Did you not read the title of the thread where it says CHEAP?

All money being equal...

would you rather sink $1000 into a Dana 30 than $1000 into a RC HP44?

Seems to me you could get more strength with less expense by starting stronger than stock...

:rolleyes:

[Lincoln]

I don't know if I want to jump into this, you guys are mean and might make me cry.

Jeff, don't andy around with the 33 spline. You can do a 35 spline ARB and then run normal 60 shafts all the way out. Import shafts are about $550 and domestics in the $800 (?). If your not going to 4340's you might as well stick with the 44 and do Warn's or Superior shafts with CTM's. Strength wise they are in the same ballpark as a spicer 60 shaft. Though you could use the spicer stuff until it breaks then upgrade.

Width is a problem I haven't completely solved with king pin knuckles though. You can take a good inch off the inside of the 60 C where you would normally weld. I haven't gotten far enough into it to decide if that would help or not. At the very least the spring (not counting coilovers) would have to be partially mounted on the inner C to keep the width close to 63".

I'm really looking hard at the Ford superduty setup because of this. With the shorter stub lenth even if the axle ends up at 63" I can still run a little more positive offset wheel without having to worry about using the hubs as curb feelers. Cheap starts dropping from there. Hub needs to be bored, drilled to a normal bolt pattern, and high steer isn't as easy as a kingpin. Used axles aren't cheap either although any D50 would work for the knuckles. Also 16" wheels are required unless you use F-450 knuckles and adapt Willwood calipers to it.

Also from the measurements I've taken it pretty well requires the use of a retubed 78-79 Ford axle with the 3 1/8" tubes. The 2 3/4 tubes are only 1.75" ID (on the real ones) and that only leaves 1/8" around the outside. Doesn't leave much room to play with the seal by the diff. Also with the 2 3/4" tubes you have to sleeve the knuckle to reduce the size.

For the rear axle, even if you sleeve the tube you better have an alignment rod. You would be surprised on how far off they can be just because of tolorances in the tube. The oiling issues will depend on how many road miles drive it. I've seen some guys around here with retubed Ford fronts that have lasted 10 years and others that go through pinion bearings once a year (daily drivers).

After prying info out of Paul with a toothpick (it's like using a bat on an ant) I think the Ford housing with a Tru Hi9 third would be easier to deal with. The pumpkin can be pushed more towards the center so the knuckle is the only thing that has to be dealt with on the springs.

Bottom line I see $3000 on the extreme cheap side. Your looking at $1600-$1800 just in the axles and diff with the 44 center. I'll let you do the math on the Hi9. Mines going to get parts bought for the next year or so before I begin.

And Andy, take that back. I'm a little over two weeks on the hub change. I figured out tonight you have to take those little bolt thingy's out to keep the crome stuff off. I'm sure I'll have it done by next weekend. I'll call and have you drink me though changing the brake pads.

[Ludakris]

with all this "cheap" talk, I am still trying to find the down side of mog axles.. $2400 for a new pair of 404's, $1600 for used.. plus shipping...
the pinion kit is $100 an axle (not sure if the front needs this), brakes could be an issue, $1000 per axle for discs, and I think the front offset may be a problem? Oh, and the 7.13 gears wont be good for street....
in all they seem do-able... but so do pro-rocks that are bolt-in.. when you start adding the nickel and dime stuff...
I started planning D44's but the gains just dont seem to be worth it..hence, the 8 1/4 swap for now.. and the scout axle for sale...
I say, D60/ D70 type swap.. 70ish dodge is a close one I think?... plus, the idea of being able to get "stock" replacement parts can be a plus..
mindless ramble over.. :wave:

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

I don't know if I want to jump into this, you guys are mean and might make me cry.

Jeff, don't andy around with the 33 spline. You can do a 35 spline ARB and then run normal 60 shafts all the way out. Import shafts are about $550 and domestics in the $800 (?). If your not going to 4340's you might as well stick with the 44 and do Warn's or Superior shafts with CTM's. Strength wise they are in the same ballpark as a spicer 60 shaft. Though you could use the spicer stuff until it breaks then upgrade.

Width is a problem I haven't completely solved with king pin knuckles though. You can take a good inch off the inside of the 60 C where you would normally weld. I haven't gotten far enough into it to decide if that would help or not. At the very least the spring (not counting coilovers) would have to be partially mounted on the inner C to keep the width close to 63".

I'm really looking hard at the Ford superduty setup because of this. With the shorter stub lenth even if the axle ends up at 63" I can still run a little more positive offset wheel without having to worry about using the hubs as curb feelers. Cheap starts dropping from there. Hub needs to be bored, drilled to a normal bolt pattern, and high steer isn't as easy as a kingpin. Used axles aren't cheap either although any D50 would work for the knuckles. Also 16" wheels are required unless you use F-450 knuckles and adapt Willwood calipers to it.

Also from the measurements I've taken it pretty well requires the use of a retubed 78-79 Ford axle with the 3 1/8" tubes. The 2 3/4 tubes are only 1.75" ID (on the real ones) and that only leaves 1/8" around the outside. Doesn't leave much room to play with the seal by the diff. Also with the 2 3/4" tubes you have to sleeve the knuckle to reduce the size.

For the rear axle, even if you sleeve the tube you better have an alignment rod. You would be surprised on how far off they can be just because of tolorances in the tube. The oiling issues will depend on how many road miles drive it. I've seen some guys around here with retubed Ford fronts that have lasted 10 years and others that go through pinion bearings once a year (daily drivers).

After prying info out of Paul with a toothpick (it's like using a bat on an ant) I think the Ford housing with a Tru Hi9 third would be easier to deal with. The pumpkin can be pushed more towards the center so the knuckle is the only thing that has to be dealt with on the springs.

Bottom line I see $3000 on the extreme cheap side. Your looking at $1600-$1800 just in the axles and diff with the 44 center. I'll let you do the math on the Hi9. Mines going to get parts bought for the next year or so before I begin.

And Andy, take that back. I'm a little over two weeks on the hub change. I figured out tonight you have to take those little bolt thingy's out to keep the crome stuff off. I'm sure I'll have it done by next weekend. I'll call and have you drink me though changing the brake pads.

I didn't know that you could run 35spline D60 shafts in a D44 center. That sounds like a good deal. It also sounds like finding an axle seal that installs in the diff and fits a D60 shaft is a problem. Keep us informed as to your progress. :) Jeff

[Goatman]

Did you not read the title of the thread where it says CHEAP?

All money being equal...

would you rather sink $1000 into a Dana 30 than $1000 into a RC HP44?

Seems to me you could get more strength with less expense by starting stronger than stock...

:rolleyes:

I have to disagree. IF all I had was $1000 to upgrade a front axle, I would much rather have a D30 with chromo shafts and CTM's than a HPD44 with stock shafts. No comparison at all........and I have trail experience to back that up. I run with a good number of guys who run that D30 combo, and have never seen them break an axle on the trail, while I've seen a whole bunch of broken stock D44 front shafts and u-joints. I know a couple of them who eventually broke the D30 ring and pinion, but they found it at home (a few broken teeth) and it didn't leave them broken down on the trail.

[CRASH]

I don't know if I want to jump into this, you guys are mean and might make me cry.

Blah,
blah,
blah.

And Andy, take that back. I'm a little over two weeks on the hub change. I figured out tonight you have to take those little bolt thingy's out to keep the crome stuff off. I'm sure I'll have it done by next weekend. I'll call and have you drink me though changing the brake pads.

Wow that post was helpful and informative. So out of character!

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

I have to disagree. IF all I had was $1000 to upgrade a front axle, I would much rather have a D30 with chromo shafts and CTM's than a HPD44 with stock shafts. No comparison at all........and I have trail experience to back that up. I run with a good number of guys who run that D30 combo, and have never seen them break an axle on the trail, while I've seen a whole bunch of broken stock D44 front shafts and u-joints. I know a couple of them who eventually broke the D30 ring and pinion, but they found it at home (a few broken teeth) and it didn't leave them broken down on the trail.

Hey, get this crap about D44 vs D30 out of my thread!!!!!!!!! :) I brought up the thought of purchasing ONE expensive HP 60 axle, combining it with a $20 HP 44 housing (and a number of other specialized parts) and getting a HP D60 rear AND a HP D44 front running D60 shafts/u-joints for perhaps less than bucks than all other options. Sure, one has to add in custom shafts (front and rear), high steer, custom bracketry, aftermarket housing ends for the rear and other misc. items, but one usually has to add these to just about any axle combination they build. Price goes up, but does it go up to the extent of ordering a Tera60 and Tera50 housing from some builder company? I don't know. What I wanted to know is if what I outlined would work and if it would be worth it. I found out some would work and some wouldn't. There may be other better options too. So lets keep it on topic about the custom axles. Here are a few more questions:

Will a stock HP D60 modified to run in the rear work ok or will oiling issues make it have problems? Are there modifications to the housing to make the oiling issues less troublesome?

Is a hp D44 center section combined with D60 outers and shafts with D60 joints a reliable combination or will the pinion or something become a problem area? Is there really a 35spline D44 ARB and does it cost more than a 31 spline D44 ARB? How much more? How about a 33 spline ARB? Can a 31 spline ARB be upgraded to 35 spline by swapping side gears? Are D60 alloy shafts more expensive than D44 alloy shafts and by how much? Who makes the custom length D60 shafts since I won't be able to call a Warn distributor and order stock replacement Alloy shafts. What about the axle seal in the diff? Anybody make one that will work?

If one were to do one of those custom 9" housings with 60 outer parts, what do they do for axle seals in the diff? Can the same thing be done with a D44 housing? What size tubes do they use? Since the 9" housings started life as rear ends, is there a place to install an axle seal in the diff? If not, how do they make a place for a seal when modifying a rear housing for use in the front? Just a few questions ON TOPIC!! :) Jeff

[Ludakris]

Hey, get this crap about D44 vs D30 out of my thread!!!!!!!!! :)
Just a few questions ON TOPIC!! :) Jeff



Geeze, You start a thread and then it turns into ME,ME,ME...

[CRASH]

Yes, those ARB's are available. They cost the same as the larger ARB units, about $800 vs $740 for a regular 44 ARB (30 spline, not 31, btw).

The pinion shaft will be the weak link in the 44 housing. They are the same size as a 30 pinion.

The oiling issues really come into play at teh high operating angles inherent in a TJ or YJ. With the XJ, it should be better. A "sticky" synthetic lube helps the situation, as it stays up in the upper pinion bearing better.

Custom 60 shafts will run about $800 for a set, vs about $600 for a 44. Stick with the Superior Evo series, as the Yukon stuff is just absolute junk, as far as I'm concerned. The fit and finish is horrible at best.

CRASH

P.S. You're a demanding son-of-a-bitch lately!


Hey, get this crap about D44 vs D30 out of my thread!!!!!!!!! :) I brought up the thought of purchasing ONE expensive HP 60 axle, combining it with a $20 HP 44 housing (and a number of other specialized parts) and getting a HP D60 rear AND a HP D44 front running D60 shafts/u-joints for perhaps less than bucks than all other options. Sure, one has to add in custom shafts (front and rear), high steer, custom bracketry, aftermarket housing ends for the rear and other misc. items, but one usually has to add these to just about any axle combination they build. Price goes up, but does it go up to the extent of ordering a Tera60 and Tera50 housing from some builder company? I don't know. What I wanted to know is if what I outlined would work and if it would be worth it. I found out some would work and some wouldn't. There may be other better options too. So lets keep it on topic about the custom axles. Here are a few more questions:

Will a stock HP D60 modified to run in the rear work ok or will oiling issues make it have problems? Are there modifications to the housing to make the oiling issues less troublesome?

Is a hp D44 center section combined with D60 outers and shafts with D60 joints a reliable combination or will the pinion or something become a problem area? Is there really a 35spline D44 ARB and does it cost more than a 31 spline D44 ARB? How much more? How about a 33 spline ARB? Can a 31 spline ARB be upgraded to 35 spline by swapping side gears? Are D60 alloy shafts more expensive than D44 alloy shafts and by how much? Who makes the custom length D60 shafts since I won't be able to call a Warn distributor and order stock replacement Alloy shafts. What about the axle seal in the diff? Anybody make one that will work?

If one were to do one of those custom 9" housings with 60 outer parts, what do they do for axle seals in the diff? Can the same thing be done with a D44 housing? What size tubes do they use? Since the 9" housings started life as rear ends, is there a place to install an axle seal in the diff? If not, how do they make a place for a seal when modifying a rear housing for use in the front? Just a few questions ON TOPIC!! :) Jeff

[Paul S]

Hey, get this crap about D44 vs D30 out of my thread!!!!!!!!! :) I brought up the thought of purchasing ONE expensive HP 60 axle, combining it with a $20 HP 44 housing (and a number of other specialized parts) and getting a HP D60 rear AND a HP D44 front running D60 shafts/u-joints for perhaps less than bucks than all other options. Sure, one has to add in custom shafts (front and rear), high steer, custom bracketry, aftermarket housing ends for the rear and other misc. items, but one usually has to add these to just about any axle combination they build. Price goes up, but does it go up to the extent of ordering a Tera60 and Tera50 housing from some builder company? I don't know. What I wanted to know is if what I outlined would work and if it would be worth it. I found out some would work and some wouldn't. There may be other better options too. So lets keep it on topic about the custom axles. Here are a few more questions:

Will a stock HP D60 modified to run in the rear work ok or will oiling issues make it have problems? Are there modifications to the housing to make the oiling issues less troublesome?

Is a hp D44 center section combined with D60 outers and shafts with D60 joints a reliable combination or will the pinion or something become a problem area? Is there really a 35spline D44 ARB and does it cost more than a 31 spline D44 ARB? How much more? How about a 33 spline ARB? Can a 31 spline ARB be upgraded to 35 spline by swapping side gears? Are D60 alloy shafts more expensive than D44 alloy shafts and by how much? Who makes the custom length D60 shafts since I won't be able to call a Warn distributor and order stock replacement Alloy shafts. What about the axle seal in the diff? Anybody make one that will work?

If one were to do one of those custom 9" housings with 60 outer parts, what do they do for axle seals in the diff? Can the same thing be done with a D44 housing? What size tubes do they use? Since the 9" housings started life as rear ends, is there a place to install an axle seal in the diff? If not, how do they make a place for a seal when modifying a rear housing for use in the front? Just a few questions ON TOPIC!! :) Jeff

I'd prefer to stay off topic on the D44 Vs D30, but it's your thread, so...

I can only comment on a couple of things.
A buddy of mine is getting his 60 shafts from Jack (CTM). I'm sure they're real cheap :)
I don't know if Warn makes 1.5" 60 blanks, but my custom 31 spline Warn inners were only $200 each. Little more than stock Warn 44 inners.
Currie epoxy's a short DOM tube inside the axle tube so a 44 seal fits like stock. I'd imagine they do the same with 60 stuff.
Keep in mind that with a 9" you can order custom tube Dia. & wall thickness.
When I spoke to Brian at Diamond Axle he said that this is how he gets the ID he needs for the appropriate seal.

Paul

[David Taylor]

A buddy of mine is getting his 60 shafts from Jack (CTM). I'm sure they're real cheap :)


Paul

Would this be 40 spline super bling stuff ? Can you get 40 spline outers ?

[Paul S]

Would this be 40 spline super bling stuff ? Can you get 40 spline outers ?

If Jack gets his way, yes, the problem is that Garry won't run an ARB & it sounds like he can't get a 40 spline Detroit, which leaves him with little 35 spline junk.

Paul

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

P.S. You're a demanding son-of-a-bitch lately!

Thank you. Somebody's got to keep you on your toes! :laugh3: Jeff

[CRASH]

If Jack gets his way, yes, the problem is that Garry won't run an ARB & it sounds like he can't get a 40 spline Detroit, which leaves him with little 35 spline junk.

Paul

I thought 40 spline detroits were readily available????

I can't believe Garry can't keep track of one stupid switch while driving. I'm beginning to question his status as a driver......

CRASH

[David Taylor]

This brings us back to the 44 topic and lockers. If I remember Richard is not running a selectable up front. Could this be leading to some of the breakage
he has been having ? Or is it just the 37"s (I hope not)?
Of course Jess is running the OX and gone trough two hubs so maybe not.
I'm hoping a light rig will let the 44 stand up to the 37's without breaking.
Time will tell I guess.

[CRASH]

Worn out CTM's really contribute to axle breakage. The play in the bushing allows the axle to "ride up" and come out of alignment, thereby breaking the CTM. The hub breakage is just stress, and is not a bad weak link.

Drive flanges are always an option for you trailer queens.

I think both of Richards breaks were the result of that hellish night on Fordyce towing Poomba's junk around.

I think your light rigs will be fine with 37's......

CRASH

[Goatman]

I thought 40 spline detroits were readily available????

I can't believe Garry can't keep track of one stupid switch while driving. I'm beginning to question his status as a driver......

CRASH

Remember, you're talking about a guy who regularly finds bomb craters at speed...........

:)

[Paul S]

Remember, you're talking about a guy who regularly finds bomb craters at speed...........

:)

To be fair, he only did that twice... in one week :laugh3: & lets not forget who his co-pilot was :wave:

Paul

[Goatman]

I brought up the thought of purchasing ONE expensive HP 60 axle, combining it with a $20 HP 44 housing (and a number of other specialized parts) and getting a HP D60 rear AND a HP D44 front running D60 shafts/u-joints for perhaps less than bucks than all other options. Sure, one has to add in custom shafts (front and rear), high steer, custom bracketry, aftermarket housing ends for the rear and other misc. items, but one usually has to add these to just about any axle combination they build. Price goes up, but does it go up to the extent of ordering a Tera60 and Tera50 housing from some builder company? I don't know. What I wanted to know is if what I outlined would work and if it would be worth it. I found out some would work and some wouldn't. There may be other better options too. So lets keep it on topic about the custom axles. Here are a few more questions:

Is a hp D44 center section combined with D60 outers and shafts with D60 joints a reliable combination or will the pinion or something become a problem area?
Jeff

Jeff, I can tell you what I did, most of which you already know. I had a HP60 hub to hub sitting in my garage, and a rear full float D60. I wanted to do what you're talking about, but I would have put the full float ends on the front housing, hog out the spindles and use 35 spline full float shafts.....no seal issues. I also had the HP44 for the front, and was going to use the D60 outers. In my case, the 35 spline ARB wasn't out yet, but I wanted to use the 33 spline Detroit that came with the Super 44 kit. Unfortunately, Superior had an exclusive on the 33 spline Detroit so it was not available. There was a possibility that I could get one, but with difficulty. At that time, guys were resplining the stock D60 shafts to 30 spline to run in the D44/D60's, but they weren't holding up because of removing too much case hardening. After messing with it for a month or more, and calling around to see what I could get done, and what parts would work, I ended up selling the front D60, built the HP44 for the front with Warn shafts and CTM's, and bought a Tera60 for the rear. I spent a little more, but it all works.

As far as breaking some D44 parts, the one side was totally because of towing Poomba on Fordyce. I first broke a Warn hub, then two days later the stub shaft broke and didn't even make any noise....about an inch of the shaft just disintigrated, obviously from previous stress. I wondered how the other side would fair, and sort of waited for the other shoe to drop, which it eventually did. The stub shaft broke, not even in a bind or hard situation, and without much noise, and the break looked just like the other side.....not a shear but breaking up in little pieces. It likely was due to cracks from the previous stress.

I also have broken two CTM's, one on each side, and both were first generation which were before they were cryo treated. The first one the tire got caught in a crack, and the axle yokes were hitting. Axle yokes hitting has been the number one reason for CTM's to break. The yokes were clearanced, so that isn't a problem anymore. The other side broke, but not in a bind, though I was working it pretty good. It could have been from previous stress (maybe the same Fordyce situation), or from the bushing being a little worn and loose, or a combination of both.

I'll have to see how it all holds together over the next year or two to see how it is really holding up.

[Lincoln]

Wow that post was helpful and informative. So out of character!

I think I was drunk.

[Lincoln]

Will a stock HP D60 modified to run in the rear work ok or will oiling issues make it have problems? Are there modifications to the housing to make the oiling issues less troublesome?
You still haven't mentioned how many road miles you plan on putting on.

Are D60 alloy shafts more expensive than D44 alloy shafts and by how much? Who makes the custom length D60 shafts since I won't be able to call a Warn distributor and order stock replacement Alloy shafts.
http://www.wagonermachine.com/
They were selling theres before the Yukon junk was out. I know they are imports, but don't know anything more than that.

Right before I did the 35 spline shafts in the rear 44 I contacted them about a 9" housing. I was determined to beat Paul to the True Hi9. If I remember correctly it was around 1200-1500 for a 9" housing, exploder disks, and 35 spline semi float shafts. No spring perches or shock mounts.


What about the axle seal in the diff? Anybody make one that will work?
The OD on a stock 44 seal is 2.625. I don't think it should be much of an issue to find an OD that size with an ID for a 60 shaft. I haven't bothered to measure the seal surface on the 1.5" shafts to see what ID was needed.


If one were to do one of those custom 9" housings with 60 outer parts, what do they do for axle seals in the diff? Can the same thing be done with a D44 housing? What size tubes do they use? Since the 9" housings started life as rear ends, is there a place to install an axle seal in the diff? If not, how do they make a place for a seal when modifying a rear housing for use in the front? Just a few questions ON TOPIC!! :) Jeff
Look at a 9" housing. Most are 3" tubes, but they are much larger where a normal inner axle seal would be placed. There is tons of room for a seal and 35 spline 9" fronts have been made for a while.

[Lincoln]

Sorry I missed a couple.

Is there really a 35spline D44 ARB and does it cost more than a 31 spline D44 ARB? How much more? How about a 33 spline ARB?
30, 33, and 35 spline ARB's are available.


Can a 31 spline ARB be upgraded to 35 spline by swapping side gears?
No, they have a larger end and a special bearing.

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Damn, this lincoln guy seems to know his stuff. :) So did I read right that you built a rear LP D44 with 35 spline semi float shafts? What parts did it take to make this work? Just for curiosity sake. Jeff

As for highway miles expected to be run on the MJ, who knows? I would like it to be able to handle highway driving as I don't own a trailer nor a tow rig, but it's all so far in the future that I just don't know. I ran the XJ from WI to AZ, WI to CO, WI to MI, etc. Got 130,000 or so miles on it now and it had 67,000 when I bought it. I doubt the MJ would see that kind of use though. Jeff

[Lincoln]

Damn, this lincoln guy seems to know his stuff. :) So did I read right that you built a rear LP D44 with 35 spline semi float shafts? What parts did it take to make this work? Just for curiosity sake. Jeff

As for highway miles expected to be run on the MJ, who knows? I would like it to be able to handle highway driving as I don't own a trailer nor a tow rig, but it's all so far in the future that I just don't know. I ran the XJ from WI to AZ, WI to CO, WI to MI, etc. Got 130,000 or so miles on it now and it had 67,000 when I bought it. I doubt the MJ would see that kind of use though. Jeff

I don't think I would worry to much about the lube issues. Worry about it if you ruin a pinion bearing quicker than you would like. Like I said some have been running 10 years and others have to change the bearings once a year. Most of them are on spring over CJ5's, pretty steep pinion angle.

If you measure a 44 shaft for a set 10 bearing the bearing area is 1.58" in diameter. That means there isn't a problem putting it on a 1.5" shaft. There isn't room though and there isn't a problem making sure the bearing is straight. :) If you get 1.5" 35 spline shafts with that bearing journal then slap in a 35 spline ARB it's done. I did mine the lazy mans way though. Just called up Tri County Gear and had them send it and all the parts I needed. No one but Jason Bunch new they sold it though so I guess it was pretty new and they were also the only place that I could get a 35 spline ARB at the time. I ended up at about $1300 with new studs, bearings, seals, retainer plates, ARB , and shafts. Those are the standard 1541 alloy that superior, dutchman, etc use.

[Lincoln]

Damn, this lincoln guy seems to know his stuff. :)

If we met you would know different. :D

[Lincoln]

For Richard or Stonergoat.

Since we're talking about 60 shit this seemed like a good place to bring it in.

If you want to run a 5x5.5 or 6x5.5 patter wheel on a front 60 (don't know about the full floats) here is what you can do. This assumes you need to do it to keep the 15 wheels.

1. Have someone turn the hub down on a lathe. Gots to fit inside the wheel. Stole a pic:
http://www.bc4x4.com/tech/2001/hpd60front/sixty2.jpg
2. Redrill the pattern.
3. F150 rotors for the 5 lug stuff (not sure on the 6 lug).
4. Call Parts Mike and get a set of caliper brackets. They use the standard Chevy caliper. If you have to have it expensive you can call Dynatrac.
5. Bolt it together.

Here's an old writeup. Parts Mike started making his brackets sometime after this.
http://www.bc4x4.com/tech/2001/hpd60front/

:D

[BrettM]

you can also get those hubs new here: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=363616

[bluebeast]

Cheapest methode avalible would be to get a high pinion front 60 out of a ford chevy or dodge cut the tubes about 12 inches from the end. Purchase a rear low pinion 70 for dirt cheap somewhere cut the outers off the 70 also at 12 inches, the cuts must be perfectly made with a band saw. Set up your alignment jig weld the the 70 outers on the ends of the the 60 tubes, full pen welds of course. Get the 70 axels and install them with standard rotation gear set and you have high pinion 60 with 70 strength. I dont remember for sure cuz it's my buddies rig but you may have to get a different locker for the 35 spline axels? He's been running it hard core on a buggie with atlas II and a V8 for about 3 years now and no breakage.

[BrettM]

Cheapest methode avalible would be to get a high pinion front 60 out of a ford chevy or dodge cut the tubes about 12 inches from the end. Purchase a rear low pinion 70 for dirt cheap somewhere cut the outers off the 70 also at 12 inches, the cuts must be perfectly made with a band saw. Set up your alignment jig weld the the 70 outers on the ends of the the 60 tubes, full pen welds of course. Get the 70 axels and install them with standard rotation gear set and you have high pinion 60 with 70 strength. I dont remember for sure cuz it's my buddies rig but you may have to get a different locker for the 35 spline axels? He's been running it hard core on a buggie with atlas II and a V8 for about 3 years now and no breakage.
sounds like a good basic plan, but where do you find chevy and dodge HP 60s? and why standard cut gears in a HP housing? I would also sleeve the tubes (inner or outer sleeve) when welding them together.

[Jes]

sounds like a good basic plan, but where do you find chevy and dodge HP 60s?

Fantasy land?

[BrettM]

Fantasy land?

Or maybe you just flip them upside down, like I did to make my HP D35 rear. :confused1

[CRASH]

Cheapest methode avalible would be to get a high pinion front 60 out of a ford chevy or dodge cut the tubes about 12 inches from the end. Purchase a rear low pinion 70 for dirt cheap somewhere cut the outers off the 70 also at 12 inches, the cuts must be perfectly made with a band saw. Set up your alignment jig weld the the 70 outers on the ends of the the 60 tubes, full pen welds of course. Get the 70 axels and install them with standard rotation gear set and you have high pinion 60 with 70 strength. I dont remember for sure cuz it's my buddies rig but you may have to get a different locker for the 35 spline axels? He's been running it hard core on a buggie with atlas II and a V8 for about 3 years now and no breakage.


This would be a sweet plan in fantasy land, where you run standard cut gears in a reverse spiral Dodge or Chevy housing.

:thumbup:

CRASH

[bluebeast]

Not Fantasy Land, Reality. Not standard cut gears, reverse cut gear set for HP 60 out of a Ford. I did find a HP 60 in a Suburban so not fantasy. I thought the newer dodge trucks came with a 70 rear and HP60 front? It really works good thought because a front 60 is 35 spline and a rear 70 is also 35 spline so you dont even have to get custom axels. Ive seen it done twice with no sleave and it has held up through some of the most severe 4 wheeling in the world. A full pen 7018 weld is going to be stronger then the tube your welding to with normal cooling. It's the only way you can run more than 10 inches of suspention lift on a TJ without having oiling isues with the rear pinion bearings.

[Lincoln]

Not Fantasy Land, Reality. Not standard cut gears, reverse cut gear set for HP 60 out of a Ford. I did find a HP 60 in a Suburban so not fantasy. I thought the newer dodge trucks came with a 70 rear and HP60 front? It really works good thought because a front 60 is 35 spline and a rear 70 is also 35 spline so you dont even have to get custom axels. Ive seen it done twice with no sleave and it has held up through some of the most severe 4 wheeling in the world. A full pen 7018 weld is going to be stronger then the tube your welding to with normal cooling. It's the only way you can run more than 10 inches of suspention lift on a TJ without having oiling isues with the rear pinion bearings.

:yap::yap::yap::yap::yap::yap::yap::yap::yap::yap: :yap::yap:

Somebody should give you a cookie for this great infomation.

Dodge D60 front.
http://home.rmci.net/lincoln/97dodge_60.jpg

[Jes]

Wow, that's the lowest HP60 I've ever seen! :confused1

[MJ_Chubs]

Jeff,

Don't know if you saw this thread on Pirate, but it looks like this guy may be a source of info for you.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=335375

If it doesn't show, try a search for the username RockGolem and the thread "Dana 30 Clearance, Dana 60 Strength". Hope that helps you some.

[CRASH]

Not Fantasy Land, Reality. Not standard cut gears, reverse cut gear set for HP 60 out of a Ford. I did find a HP 60 in a Suburban so not fantasy. I thought the newer dodge trucks came with a 70 rear and HP60 front? It really works good thought because a front 60 is 35 spline and a rear 70 is also 35 spline so you dont even have to get custom axels. Ive seen it done twice with no sleave and it has held up through some of the most severe 4 wheeling in the world. A full pen 7018 weld is going to be stronger then the tube your welding to with normal cooling. It's the only way you can run more than 10 inches of suspention lift on a TJ without having oiling isues with the rear pinion bearings.

Wow, you found an HP 60 in a Suburban? That is interesting. Not only did Subs never come with a D-60 in front, no GM solid axle rig ever came with an RS diff, period. So I guess you found a pretty special Suburban that someone had taken the time to swap a Ford RS axle into. Oh, they must have switched sides on the pumpkin as well. Sweet.

Your latest post does not answer how this is possible, care to enlighten us?:

Get the 70 axels and install them with standard rotation gear set and you have high pinion 60 with 70 strength.

Welding D-70 ends on a D-60 axle is common practice, Though I wouldn't do it in the tube section without sleeving. Most guys do not have the facilities to normalize the welded area to reduce the heat affected zone's influence, so it would be better if the welded area shared the load a bit with an internal tube.

One thing you are also neglecting is that a Ford Dana 60 was not designed for constant service. They have oiling issues of their own, even without the added stress of being tilted up 15 or 20 degrees. They rely on a fairly small oil reservoir, and don't get this refreshed very much, as the internal passages are not set up to take advantage of the ring gear splashing fresh fluid onto the pinion bearings.

One final point. There is a right way and a wrong way to do things. You may get away with some of the practices you have outlined for a while, but in the end, it's not the correct way to accomplish a mission. When I design something for myself or others, I try to put myself in the shoes of a factory engineer. I ask myself whether the product will withstand constant road use, for 10-15 years, even if a dumbass is driving? Would I trust my life to it?

Anyway, food for thought. But please answer about using a standard rotation gear set in an RS housing, I'm very curious about that.

CRASH

[bluebeast]

Wow, you found an HP 60 in a Suburban? That is interesting. Not only did Subs never come with a D-60 in front, no GM solid axle rig ever came with an RS diff, period. So I guess you found a pretty special Suburban that someone had taken the time to swap a Ford RS axle into. Oh, they must have switched sides on the pumpkin as well. Sweet.

Your latest post does not answer how this is possible, care to enlighten us?:



Welding D-70 ends on a D-60 axle is common practice, Though I wouldn't do it in the tube section without sleeving. Most guys do not have the facilities to normalize the welded area to reduce the heat affected zone's influence, so it would be better if the welded area shared the load a bit with an internal tube.

One thing you are also neglecting is that a Ford Dana 60 was not designed for constant service. They have oiling issues of their own, even without the added stress of being tilted up 15 or 20 degrees. They rely on a fairly small oil reservoir, and don't get this refreshed very much, as the internal passages are not set up to take advantage of the ring gear splashing fresh fluid onto the pinion bearings.

One final point. There is a right way and a wrong way to do things. You may get away with some of the practices you have outlined for a while, but in the end, it's not the correct way to accomplish a mission. When I design something for myself or others, I try to put myself in the shoes of a factory engineer. I ask myself whether the product will withstand constant road use, for 10-15 years, even if a dumbass is driving? Would I trust my life to it?

Anyway, food for thought. But please answer about using a standard rotation gear set in an RS housing, I'm very curious about that.

CRASH

My bad about the dodge HP60 but I know for a fact you could special order a
front 60 on early model suburbans.But I got that 60 out of a lifted burb with 38s so maybe the guy did take the time to custom make it. It was a parting out rig.
I know the front 60 isnt made for constant service, but are you seriously going to drive a rig with full with axels on the street? and with tires big enought to warant the use of a 60 or 70? tell me what state you live in Im moving there.
It's not a standard cut gear set. It's all the original parts that the HP60 came with. the only weakness is that the drive force is on the wrong side of the teeth, unless you are in reverse. But since the housing is spun around backwards it rotates the tires in the right direction. Im not really the expert on this project though because Ive only helped friends and seen it work on the trail. The sleave idea may be a good one but it seems to me that a lot of suggestions on this site are extreamly overkill, maybe good for mil spec but too much for rock crawling. Ive seen some pretty crappy stuff hold up through a beating for years.
As for being street safe? isnt this advanced FAB? I would have left it stock if I wanted to drive it on the street or left it at 33's.

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Well, I don't know if this project will move forwared in any way, but I picked up a good '90 Ford HP60 housing last night for $25! :) It's king pin and has the steering knuckles, but is missing the spindles. It was from a dually and has the dually front hubs/rotors. It's missing some parts, but the housing is good and I got the inner and outer shafts and they are HUGE! I would like to make the housing into a rear HP60 for my MJ, but the oiling issues are somewhat concerning. I couldn't pass it up at that price though. Jeff

[Lincoln]

Well, I don't know if this project will move forwared in any way, but I picked up a good '90 Ford HP60 housing last night for $25! :) It's king pin and has the steering knuckles, but is missing the spindles. It was from a dually and has the dually front hubs/rotors. It's missing some parts, but the housing is good and I got the inner and outer shafts and they are HUGE! I would like to make the housing into a rear HP60 for my MJ, but the oiling issues are somewhat concerning. I couldn't pass it up at that price though. Jeff

You got screwed. Load that thing on a pallet and send it my way and I won't tell anyone.

[Goatman]

Jeff, when you decide that you can't use it, I'll double your money and pay the shipping.

Or, since I only want the ends, and you want the center section.........?


:D :D

[BrettM]

Well, I don't know if this project will move forwared in any way, but I picked up a good '90 Ford HP60 housing last night for $25! :) It's king pin and has the steering knuckles, but is missing the spindles. It was from a dually and has the dually front hubs/rotors. It's missing some parts, but the housing is good and I got the inner and outer shafts and they are HUGE! I would like to make the housing into a rear HP60 for my MJ, but the oiling issues are somewhat concerning. I couldn't pass it up at that price though. Jeff
you sure it's from a 90 and kingpin!? I was under the strong impression that those years were all balljoint. regardless, great deal. I wouldn't worry about the oiling, of all the aftermarket HP60 diffs that people run in the rear, the RockCrusher is the only one with additional oil passages.

[CRASH]

Brett, they are KP until about 92.

CRASH

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

So what exactly would you do with the ends? Probably what I was going to do with the ends, right? Speaking of that, if you only want the ends, wouldn't it be cheaper to get a low pinion Chevy/Dodge 60 and use the ends off that? Is there some reason why that won't work? I would imagine that would still be cheaper than buying after market 60 ends, but I haven't looked into it that much.

On another note, I found another vehicle sitting in the weeds by my grandfathers place and I know it's been there for many years. It looks like a '79 Ford F250 extended cab (or possibly 4 door, I don't remember), but it's got a HPD60 king pin leaf sprung front and a FF 60 rear. I've inquired about it, but have no word yet. Anyway, I was surprised it had a 60 front because it is only a 250. Is the rear a 30 spline unit that can't be upgraded to 35 spline without opening up the spindles? Later, Jeff

Jeff, when you decide that you can't use it, I'll double your money and pay the shipping.

Or, since I only want the ends, and you want the center section.........?


:D :D

[Goatman]

Yeah, I could find a low pinion 60......if I ever decide to go that way. We'll see how much more abuse my poor little old D44 can handle. 37's...............

Yeah, the HD F250's (above 8500 GVW maybe) came with front D60's. The one I had came out of an F250. The rears are all full floater D60's, 30 spline. I don't remember when they went to the Sterling rear end, I think mid '80's.

[MudDawg]

"Tell me what state you are livin' in, I'm movin' there"....Come to Florida...anything goes...at least in Central Florida....no mudflaps, no fender law...blah, blah, blah...wanna run 49's and rockwells on the street....no prob...All ya need is a bumper sticker that sez "If ya can't stop....honk as you go under." Actually there are a few laws, but it's all good unless you crash...or the rig is OBVIOUSLY unsafe.

[bluebeast]

"Tell me what state you are livin' in, I'm movin' there"....Come to Florida...anything goes...at least in Central Florida....no mudflaps, no fender law...blah, blah, blah...wanna run 49's and rockwells on the street....no prob...All ya need is a bumper sticker that sez "If ya can't stop....honk as you go under." Actually there are a few laws, but it's all good unless you crash...or the rig is OBVIOUSLY unsafe.

Im movin to florida haha. that sounds awsome. Im really into rocks though, isnt it mostly mud there?