Purchasing tubing...questions

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Hey, I want to pick up some 2" OD x 1.5" ID, .25" wall tubing for my new long arms. I know what DOM is, but what about chromoly? What specifically do I ask for at the steel place? I think DOM is a different animal than chromoly, but is chromoly DOM made with a different grade of steel? What is the real life difference between these two? I think standard DOM is easier to come by around here. Thanks for any input. Jeff

[CRASH]

Hey, I want to pick up some 2" OD x 1.5" ID, .25" wall tubing for my new long arms. I know what DOM is, but what about chromoly? What specifically do I ask for at the steel place? I think DOM is a different animal than chromoly, but is chromoly DOM made with a different grade of steel? What is the real life difference between these two? I think standard DOM is easier to come by around here. Thanks for any input. Jeff

We use 4130 chromo, but it's likely overkill in this size. RE uses 4130 as well (or at least, they used to). The difference is simply in material property, 4130 has more elasticity than regular mild steel in its various grades. Expect to pay about 50% more for 4130. I pay $13 a foot in that size, but I get a very good price. Seamless is even more, but really is overkill, It's manufactured differently than welded tube:

"The seamless tubing process is a method of manufacturing steel tubing without having to weld down the length of a seam. In this process, the starting point is a solid circular billet. The billet is then pierced or extruded to form a hollow tube. The tube is then reduced to size by 'pilgering' or 'rocking'. The cleaning and annealing process is the same as for the [welded and drawn] tubing, thus ensuring that the uniformity of tube and symmetrical material properties are maintained. This method of manufacture is generally more expensive than the welded and drawn method and provides a tube whose wall thickness is not quite as accurate."

Why isn't this in Advanced?

CRASH

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

We use 4130 chromo, but it's likely overkill in this size. RE uses 4130 as well (or at least, they used to). The difference is simply in material property, 4130 has more elasticity than regular mild steel in its various grades. Expect to pay about 50% more for 4130. I pay $13 a foot in that size, but I get a very good price. Seamless is even more, but really is overkill, It's manufactured differently than welded tube:

"The seamless tubing process is a method of manufacturing steel tubing without having to weld down the length of a seam. In this process, the starting point is a solid circular billet. The billet is then pierced or extruded to form a hollow tube. The tube is then reduced to size by 'pilgering' or 'rocking'. The cleaning and annealing process is the same as for the [welded and drawn] tubing, thus ensuring that the uniformity of tube and symmetrical material properties are maintained. This method of manufacture is generally more expensive than the welded and drawn method and provides a tube whose wall thickness is not quite as accurate."

Why isn't this in Advanced?

CRASH

It's not in Advanced because I'm not really all that advanced. I'm kind of an advanced wannabe. :) I figured more folks might see it and perhaps have a good reply. Hell, move it if you want! :laugh3: So talk to me in dummy terms: When I call a supply place what do I ask for? 4130 Chromoly tubing? I need a 5' piece. I'll probably ask for DOM also just to compare costs and availability. Jeff

[Lawn Cher']

Jeff-

DOM is a manufacturing technique, whereas Chromoly is a material. You could theoretically get Chromoly in either DOM or ERW, just like mild steel. I hope that clarifies it for you a little bit.

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Yeah, that helps a little bit. So what is the correct term for whatever you get when you ask for DOM? What is the correct term for the same thing in chromoly? Jeff

[CRASH]

Yeah, that helps a little bit. So what is the correct term for whatever you get when you ask for DOM? What is the correct term for the same thing in chromoly? Jeff

You can ask for drawn over mandrel (DOM) chromo, which is the way it usually comes. Seamless chromo would be another, more expensive option.

You only need 5 feet? How long did the LCA's end up?

CRASH

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

34.5" center to center on the lower arms. The RE spuds and stuff knock about 6" off that per side. So, I really only need about 28" per side. Doubled, that is 56" which is pretty close to 5'. Jeff

[BrettM]

One thing to keep in mind is that you do not gain much in material strength with chromo unless you heat-treat the links after finishing them, then the strength gain is huge.

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Well, that's a new one on me. So what is involved in heat treating the links? Why would you have to anyway? So one welds a little on the ends, the middle of the link has not been changed in any way from it's manufactured state. Clue me in. Jeff

[BrettM]

chromo doesn't come heat-treated, for links the general opinion is a Rockwell hardness just under 40 is good. call some heat-treating shops in the area. it should be about $100-150 for a few links.

however, unless you're being really anal about weight, I would just go a touch thicker and DOM and not worry about it. 2" .375 wall DOM will be cheaper than heat treated 4130 and still plenty strong, and you've only added a few extra pounds and it is weight down low. Even 2" .250 wall DOM will be enough if you're not one to beat on them.

[CRASH]

Trust me, regular 1020 DOM in 2x.25 is PLENTY strong out to about 48" or so.

The material properties of 4130 are more elastic in an untreated state as well. They will be more so when treated, but I'm not sure it's worth the expense. I've always just preheated the weld area and slow cooled in a bucket of sand to help normalize the heat affected zone. Never had a break in any of the 4130 i've welded on. *knocking on wood*

I don't think RE heat treats their links, either.

chromo doesn't come heat-treated, for links the general opinion is a Rockwell hardness just under 40 is good. call some heat-treating shops in the area. it should be about $100-150 for a few links.

however, unless you're being really anal about weight, I would just go a touch thicker and DOM and not worry about it. 2" .375 wall DOM will be cheaper than heat treated 4130 and still plenty strong, and you've only added a few extra pounds and it is weight down low. Even 2" .250 wall DOM will be enough if you're not one to beat on them.

[Captain Ron]

E4130 tube is supplied in hot rolled annealed, and cold finished annealed.

HR: Tensile= 88000, Yield= 60000, Elong % in 2"= 30, Brinell= 179
CR: Tensile= 98000, Yield= 82000, Elong % in 2"= 20, Brinell= 201

It is very common for suppliers to sell you HR at CR prices. If you do not specify...

E4130 is one of the easiest materials to work with from a heat treating standpoint. It is forgiving to heat ranges, times, and normalizing. There is simply no excuse to pay for E4130, and not heat treat it.

Harden: 1550-1600F, water quench, temper.
Normalize: 1600-1700F, air cool.
Anneal: 1525-1575F, furnace cool.
Temper: 800 - 1200F

Typical water quech and temper ( 800F ) properties:

Tensile= 200000, Yield= 170000, Elong % in 2"= 16.5, Brinell= 375

All factors are easily customized, oil quenching, and temper have various effects. Most shops will need the Brinell or Rockwell you want to go to. A set of links would be a minimum charge for most shops. I won't get into costs, other than it'll cost you a hell of alot more than it costs me. :D

--ron

[Paul S]

Gotta agree with Brett on this one, no point in going Chromo if you're not going to heat treat.
The other consideration is that unless you know how to weld Chromo, your welds will be a weak link. I'd take DOM over Chromo (even heat treated Chromo) every day, only because I know that MY welded DOM will be stronger than MY welded Chromo.

Paul

[CRASH]

Go 6100 series aluminum or go home. :D

CRASH

[BrettM]

damn, this smells like tech

[Captain Ron]

Go 6100 series aluminum or go home. :D

CRASH

SPOBI

Sch 80, 3003 :D

--ron

[Roxtar]

Trust me, regular 1020 DOM in 2x.25 is PLENTY strong out to about 48" or so.
2X

[CRASH]

A better home for this fine thread.

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Well, I got a quote of $50 for DOM and something like $136 for chromoly. This is for 5' of 2" x 0.25 wall. Apparently, the chromoly price is way up there, but how about the DOM? Looks like $10 per foot and available now. Jeff

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

[QUOTE=Jeff 98XJ WI]Well, I got a quote of $50 for DOM and something like $136 for chromoly. This is for 5' of 2" x 0.25 wall. Apparently, the chromoly price is way up there, but how about the DOM? Looks like $10 per foot and available now. Jeff[/QUOTE

Well, I was giving prices by memory and I was WAY off on the price for the chromoly. My quote says $340!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I also asked about a piece of 1.25 x0.281 x 4' DOM for a tie rod and was quoted $110 for that. Both the 1.25" and the 2" DOM are for HOT Rolled too. Jeff

[BrettM]

[QUOTE=Jeff 98XJ WI]I also asked about a piece of 1.25 x0.281 x 4' DOM for a tie rod and was quoted $110 for that.

i know the guys at WFOconcepts (.com) and they make tie-rods from the same stuff. call them up and you should be able to get it made with it tapped left and right threads 7/8 with flats milled at the end of the tubing, all for under that price. give em a call 530.268.9494

[Lincoln]

[QUOTE=Jeff 98XJ WI]Well, I got a quote of $50 for DOM and something like $136 for chromoly. This is for 5' of 2" x 0.25 wall. Apparently, the chromoly price is way up there, but how about the DOM? Looks like $10 per foot and available now. Jeff[/QUOTE

Well, I was giving prices by memory and I was WAY off on the price for the chromoly. My quote says $340!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I also asked about a piece of 1.25 x0.281 x 4' DOM for a tie rod and was quoted $110 for that. Both the 1.25" and the 2" DOM are for HOT Rolled too. Jeff

OUCH! I bitched when I paid $7.00/ft for 1.25"X.288 DOM. (2001 :D)

Seriously though, I wouldn't use that heavy on your tie rod. I did and I'm always worried about breaking something else before taking out the tie rod. I would rather bend the drag link than break the sector shaft. I can jack it off the ground by the tie rod and barely get any flex out of it. 1/4" wall is more than enough. If your looking for something to tap to 3/4X16 I found some 1.125X.22 that would work great and at the time would have cut the price by 20%. Are you still using GM TRE's? I would almost bet they would let go before the .22 wall stuff.

You didn't mention what the 2"x.25 was for hot rolled DOM. I was planning on using 1.75x.25 for mine. Haven't checked prices in a while since it makes me cry like a baby.

[Matt S.]

I use 1.25"x.288" DOM drilled to 11/16" ID to accept a 3/4" tap. I dont like tube inserts. Tap the material!!!! I run 3/4" hiems and dont worry about breaking my steering. I just try to be careful on how hard i use it. I dont want to break boxs or my frame.

http://img206.echo.cx/img206/8482/sss0109ji.jpg

[Roxtar]

You guys need to reread his first post.
He's making control arms.

[Dirk Pitt]

You guys need to reread his first post.
He's making control arms.

And a tie rod.

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Yeah, I am making control arms, but I did also throw some inf. in there about tie rod material. I originally used some 1.0625 DOM I found in the used steel place and I either drilled it a little bit and then tapped it OR I tapped it directly. In any case, I've bent this unit numerous times and it's really not looking all that good. So, I thought perhaps I would move up to something a bit beefier that can be tapped directly. That's why I asked the steel place for a price on 1.25x.288 wall. Also, I built my drag link from a cut down 80's chevy truck tie rod and bent one of the ends of this tube, so it got replaced with 1.5" OD DOM tapped to 7/8-18. Now THAT is a HD drag link!!! I'm running different Chevy tie rod ends on the tie rod that are 3/4-16 Right and Left thread. Oh, I do have a bunch of 1.25x.188 wall DOM that I could use for the tie rod, but then I have to buy weld in bungs from Spidertrax and when you figure in the cost of them plus shipping, I might be better off getting some different tube that can be tapped directly since I have the 3/4" taps. Jeff

PS, I got another quote from the internet for the 2" x 0.25" wall Chromoly DOM. $145 plus UPS from FACTORYSTEEL.COM in MI. Jeff

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

I was in Crandon yesterday and talked with a guy at a local metal fab place and it turns out he is/was into the CORR and desert race scene some. He told me that the trophy trucks use 2" OD x .120 4130 for their suspension links and he thought my 0.25" wall desires were WAY overkill! Most of the lower classes run smaller diameter .120 DOM tubing for their links. He also told me about a shop just north of the race track where Baldwin Racing builds all their trucks...including the desert race units. I've seen the place, and it looks NICE from a distance. :) Jeff

[C-ROK]

I was in Crandon yesterday and talked with a guy at a local metal fab place and it turns out he is/was into the CORR and desert race scene some. He told me that the trophy trucks use 2" OD x .120 4130 for their suspension links and he thought my 0.25" wall desires were WAY overkill! Most of the lower classes run smaller diameter .120 DOM tubing for their links. He also told me about a shop just north of the race track where Baldwin Racing builds all their trucks...including the desert race units. I've seen the place, and it looks NICE from a distance. :) Jeff

If you're only needing to consider suspension forces, yes that's fine.

We need thicker material because of the propensity to hit a bunch of rocks with the links not because of suspension reaction forces.
My old front links were 2"x.250" DOM and I DID bend one.

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

If you're only needing to consider suspension forces, yes that's fine.

We need thicker material because of the propensity to hit a bunch of rocks with the links not because of suspension reaction forces.
My old front links were 2"x.250" DOM and I DID bend one.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I told him. However, those trucks really see some forces travelling at the speeds they do over the ground they do. He did see my point when I mentioned that the whole truck might end up sitting on the side of the arm while crawling in the rocks. :) Jeff

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Some further inf. from Midway Steel who quoted me the $50 for 2" OD x 0.25" wall DOM HR. He said the stuff is made from 1026 and falls under ASTM A513 Type 5 which is somewhat stronger than standard mild steel. Is this the stronger DOM which was referred to as cold rolled DOM or is this the weaker hot rolled DOM? Jeff

[Roxtar]

Some further inf. from Midway Steel who quoted me the $50 for 2" OD x 0.25" wall DOM HR. He said the stuff is made from 1026 and falls under ASTM A513 Type 5 which is somewhat stronger than standard mild steel. Is this the stronger DOM which was referred to as cold rolled DOM or is this the weaker hot rolled DOM? JeffI wouldn't worry about it either way. Both should be plenty strong for what we're doing.

[Captain Ron]

Like you said, it is per ASTM A-513, Type 5. This is pretty much the vanillia flavored DOM these days. You could only do better in carbon steel with ASTM A-519 Cold Drawn Seamless, which is limited in wall thicknesses available.
--ron

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Thanks for all the responses. I purchased a chunk of the vanilla DOM from Midwest Metals in Withee WI for $44. Should work well. Jeff

[dizzymac]

Lost me back at "Hey I want to pick up some"........

[Mr.OverKill]

Like you said, it is per ASTM A-513, Type 5. This is pretty much the vanillia flavored DOM these days. You could only do better in carbon steel with ASTM A-519 Cold Drawn Seamless ect...ect...ect...
--ron

just currious how you would learn all that stuff off the top of your head!! well i guess some people just have it, i know alot about a whole lot of things but not enough about any one thing to be an expert i guess, except mabi actual metal work ( not the science of it but the art/ shapeing of it ) being a Master Manipulator of Moltan Metals ( welder/ fabricator ) that is.:laugh3: