Progress on my attempt at a hidden LA 3-link

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

I screwed around under my Jeep again this past weekend for WAY TOO LONG and have a tiny bit of progress to show for it. Everything is a compromise between competing issues when trying to build this damn thing! First, I had to clock the t-case a bit to gain some clearance between the front output CV and my 2" thick crossmember mounted with it's bottom flush with the bottom of my sleeved frame rails. The tranny/t-case still needs to be moved up a bit from stock too. I actually raised it as little as possible while still getting some clearance for the front driveshaft. Then I installed the front shaft and let it droop till the cv was in a bind. Hmm, not as much droop as I had thought I would have. Even with this much droop, the shaft got in the way of where the control arm mounts were supposed to go. Things might have worked out better if I could have pushed the crossmember back a bit, but other considerations made that difficult. So, I did a bunch of thinking and planning before finally cutting, grinding, welding and such to come up with what I have. I'm not even sure it will work, but I guess I'm ok with it. The bottom of the Johnnie Joint is 1" below the bottom of the crossmember and with the driveshaft at full droop, I've got less than 1/4" between the top of the Johnnie Joint and the driveshaft. My old crossmember only hung 1.25" below the bottom of the frame, so the bottom of the Johnnie Joint is a tiny bit higher than the old setup while the rest of the crossmember is a bit higher. The arms will be 34.5" to 34.75" long with this crossmember. I still have a bunch of work to do, including the mount for the single long upper link, but at least I actually built something instead of just doing more pondering! Jeff

http://share.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=EeEN2jZq0btmG_

[CRASH]

One thing about the URF three link, there's not a lot of extra space!

CRASH

P.S. Especially with a juice box!

[BrettM]

are you going to put the single upper between the driveshaft and the tranny, URF style? could the passenger side possibly be easier, or is the starter motor too much in the way?

[CRASH]

I know you don't have your MJ with you, so you can't look. The starter is WAY in the way.

CRASH


are you going to put the single upper between the driveshaft and the tranny, URF style? could the passenger side possibly be easier, or is the starter motor too much in the way?

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

are you going to put the single upper between the driveshaft and the tranny, URF style? could the passenger side possibly be easier, or is the starter motor too much in the way?

My plan is to mount the single upper ABOVE the CV joint. I plan to make some sort of hoop to go over the CV and then put tabs on the hoop wherever makes the most sense for the upper arm. I MIGHT be able to do a mount like Crash and Jes did keeping it between the CV and the tranny, but I don't think it'll fit. The other end of the upper then may run into problems with the tranny shifter cable, mount, etc. I'll have to cross that bridge when I get to it. First, I've got to come up with some sort of exhaust route to fit it over the crossmember and clear the long lower arm during compression! I like the single long arm above the pumpkin as I think the action of the gears provides most of the tendency for the housing to rotate. The link located there keeps rotation under control as it's source. Braking is the other big factor that wants to rotate the housing. Jeff

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Damn, it takes me forever to do anything! After two more LATE nights and one full vacation day, I got the crossmember and modified exhaust bolted in! The truck is driveable once again. http://share.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=EeEN2jZq0btmHI I pieced together about fifty pieces of exhaust tubing (from two Borla header to cat pipes) to make one complicated pipe that clears the passengers side long arm mount, the crossmember, and dumps into the old cat back system in a pretty much stock location. I even added a hanger off the new crossmember close the where the old hanger mounted off the tranny. I reused the old hanger from my '92, but modified both parts. I hope there is enough cushion when the engine flexes yet not too much where the pipe hits obstructions. It clears the crossmember by about 1/2". I did clearance the floor just a bit with a hammer...which proved awful easy...like too easy as the first hit dented the floor a good 1/2"! I'm not sure that was completely necessary, but it did increase the room and isn't noticeable inside with the carpet and all.

As for the crossmember, you may wonder what is going on there with the mounting. Well, I previously sleeved my frame rail with 3x4x.25 U shaped steel and made it bolt on with a number of through the frame sleeves. When I located the crossmember, it overlapped ONE set of through the frame sleeves. So, I tied the mount into this sleeved hole and made a boxed in portion with a through hole to allow a wrench to fit through the crossmember and to the nut on the inside of the frame rail. Pictures show it better than I can describe it. I plan to add four tabs that will be welded to the frame rail sleeves and then put four more bolts through the crossmember mounting plates and through the tabs. I think that will make the crossmember mounting system strong enough to handle the upper and lower control arm mounts. That makes three bolts from the bottom per side into the factory nut strips in the frame rails, one large through the frame bolt per side, and two bolts per side from the bottom through tabs welded to the frame rail sleeves. That's six bolts per side.

I drove it to work this morning and everything worked fine. I even threw it in low range and drove around our field a bit with no issues. So far so good. Jeff

[CRASH]

Looks like URF-East is up and running.

When do the LCA mounts get cut off?

That's always a hold-your-stones moment.

CRASH

[TrailHunter]

I'd say you did a lot in that much time. How bout a couple shots with the rattle can so it won't rust up :laugh3: Looks pretty good!

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Yeah, a little paint wouldn't hurt. However, it really only puts off the inevitable for a short while around here. Also, I needed to get the damn thing running again so I didn't have time for paint. And finally, I still need to add a mount to the crossmember for the upper control arm as well as the four additional holes and tabs welded to the frame sleeve. And, I wanted to be sure things worked before covering them in paint. Jeff

[BrettM]

nice work with the exhaust, looks like a PITA! any concern about the exhaust warming the tranny too much? maybe put a heat-shield in?

I didnt' see any pictures with the arms all hooked up, got any?

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

nice work with the exhaust, looks like a PITA! any concern about the exhaust warming the tranny too much? maybe put a heat-shield in?

I didnt' see any pictures with the arms all hooked up, got any?

The exhaust runs pretty much right next to the tranny cooler lines. I don't really like that, but stock configuration isn't all that much different. I do think it is closer now though. I was thinking that some lines come with a shiny fabric type heat shield on them. Perhaps I could find some of that stuff and wrap the lines? I did rebend the lower tranny cooler hose up some to clear the exhaust as the new pipe location is on top of where the line used to run. As for long arms, I don't even have the material yet! :) That takes cash. I fabbed everything I've got using one of my short arms with 2.5" Johnny joints pilfered from one side. Oh, a 2x4 is a good estimation of line of site clearance too. :) This thing is a work in progress you know. Jeff

[CRASH]

The exhaust runs pretty much right next to the tranny cooler lines. I don't really like that, but stock configuration isn't all that much different. I do think it is closer now though. I was thinking that some lines come with a shiny fabric type heat shield on them. Perhaps I could find some of that stuff and wrap the lines? I did rebend the lower tranny cooler hose up some to clear the exhaust as the new pipe location is on top of where the line used to run. As for long arms, I don't even have the material yet! :) That takes cash. I fabbed everything I've got using one of my short arms with 2.5" Johnny joints pilfered from one side. Oh, a 2x4 is a good estimation of line of site clearance too. :) This thing is a work in progress you know. Jeff

I only see a two-link suspension in those pics......it must really be a hidden three link, eh? ;) :D

CRASH

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

I only see a two-link suspension in those pics......it must really be a hidden three link, eh? ;) :D

CRASH

Actually, it's more like a no link in those pictures! Not counting the four short arms and the track bar. :) Jeff

[Jes]

Some pics for Jeff...
http://www.fototime.com/{EE2E0005-C89A-41F6-ABBA-86163E6B33EF}/picture.JPG
http://www.fototime.com/{A2E4DFEA-C679-4B0B-A995-B9EFA5699D2C}/picture.JPG
http://www.fototime.com/{2E8B6F48-DED7-4B73-A065-3AA25341BA25}/picture.JPG
...don't know if those will help, let me know if you need anymore.

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Thanks Jes. One of those shots comes pretty close to answering my question. I think a key ingredient to building a long link suspension with the frame end of the links raised above the bottom of the frame rails is the relationship for and aft between the drivers side lower control arm mount and the front driveshaft. One wants the front output as low as possible to keep the fully drooped driveshaft as low as possible for as much droop as possible. However, with the control arm mounted right under the driveshaft, and the desire to mount it as high as possible, it becomes advantageous to locate the control arm end in the crook between the driveshaft and the Double Cardon joint with the driveshaft fully drooped. I didn't realize this when I started this project and ended up locating my crossmember based on how it would fit against my tranny/t-case. If I were to do this again, I would start with the idea that I need to locate the control arm end in the crook between the shaft and the double cardon joint with the driveshaft fully drooped. Then I would raise the front output (via clocking the t-case and/or raising the t-case/tranny combo) just high enough to allow the control arm to sit flush with the bottom of the frame rails. THEN, make the tranny mount wherever it needs to be. I ended up with my control arm mounts a little too far forward. It will work and I'm not going to change it, but these are some tidbits that I've learned along the way. Jeff

[Roxtar]

I screwed around under my Jeep again this past weekend for WAY TOO LONG and have a tiny bit of progress to show for it. Everything is a compromise between competing issues when trying to build this damn thing! First, I had to clock the t-case a bit to gain some clearance between the front output CV and my 2" thick crossmember mounted with it's bottom flush with the bottom of my sleeved frame rails. The tranny/t-case still needs to be moved up a bit from stock too. I actually raised it as little as possible while still getting some clearance for the front driveshaft. Then I installed the front shaft and let it droop till the cv was in a bind. Hmm, not as much droop as I had thought I would have. Even with this much droop, the shaft got in the way of where the control arm mounts were supposed to go. Things might have worked out better if I could have pushed the crossmember back a bit, but other considerations made that difficult. So, I did a bunch of thinking and planning before finally cutting, grinding, welding and such to come up with what I have. I'm not even sure it will work, but I guess I'm ok with it. The bottom of the Johnnie Joint is 1" below the bottom of the crossmember and with the driveshaft at full droop, I've got less than 1/4" between the top of the Johnnie Joint and the driveshaft. My old crossmember only hung 1.25" below the bottom of the frame, so the bottom of the Johnnie Joint is a tiny bit higher than the old setup while the rest of the crossmember is a bit higher. The arms will be 34.5" to 34.75" long with this crossmember. I still have a bunch of work to do, including the mount for the single long upper link, but at least I actually built something instead of just doing more pondering! Jeff

http://share.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=EeEN2jZq0btmG_
Cool, simultanious 3 link buildups.
Wanna race?

[CRASH]

I'm glad Jes got you guys pics. I'm still camera-less.

At least I'm finally worm-free.

CRASH

[Roxtar]

Some pics for Jeff... let me know if you need anymore.Jes, can you post one looking straight back down the UCA from axle to X-member mount?

[CRASH]

Jes, can you post one looking straight back down the UCA from axle to X-member mount?

Does this one help?:


http://www.fototime.com/{411C5DF4-7BEB-4089-AA90-DA20BA901080}/picture.JPG

[CRASH]

Here's my finished X-member:

http://www.fototime.com/{7C8782C5-11B1-4B39-8F5C-8372148B5EB1}/picture.JPG

[JnJ]

Excellent work Jeff. I look forward to seeing the finished product.

[BrettM]

Jes, can you post one looking straight back down the UCA from axle to X-member mount?
here's CRASH's:

http://img229.echo.cx/img229/1752/urf3link11mw.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

http://img74.echo.cx/img74/3750/urf3link29es.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

[Roxtar]

Perfect
Thanks

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Cool, simultanious 3 link buildups.
Wanna race?

WEll, how far along are you? :) I'm pretty slow. Just ask Jes who was trying to run me over in the dark comeing back to camp out by Florence Junction. :) I would suggest you take my insight to heart if you are in the planning stages of the crossmember.

For Jes and Andy, do you guys know the vertical separation of your upper and lower links? Oh, and will you post it here? :)

I was eyeing up the upper link area on my juice box '98 and I'm going to HAVE to do something about the tranny shifter. I don't know what yet though. Jeff

[JeepFreak21]

I'm glad Jes got you guys pics. I'm still camera-less.

At least I'm finally worm-free.

CRASH

My dog got worms once. It was from eating his own poo.
Billy

[JeepFreak21]

Cool, simultanious 3 link buildups.
Wanna race?

http://www.slicky.net/smilies/pics.gif

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

http://www.slicky.net/smilies/pics.gif

Yeah! I'm posting as I build, so you should do the same! Jeff

[JnJ]

Yeah! I'm posting as I build, so you should do the same! Jeff
:wstupid:

[Roxtar]

I would suggest you take my insight to heart if you are in the planning stages of the crossmember.
You mean the hoop thing?

[CRASH]

Here's my finished X-member:

http://www.fototime.com/{7C8782C5-11B1-4B39-8F5C-8372148B5EB1}/picture.JPG


I'm using the middle hole here.

Arm length is right at 40". Vert seperation at the axle is 8", at the member, 6".

Jes uses 34" long arms and he is 8" at the axler and 7" at the member.

Kind of makes sense, since the links are converging, that mine are closer together at the frame. They both seem to act very much the same on climbs. Very neutral.

CRASH

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

You mean the hoop thing?
I mean by locating the drivers side lower control arm just under the front driveshaft in the crook created by the joint between the shaft and the double cardon joint with the shaft fully drooped. Crash moved his in towards the center of the rig so that the mount was offset about halfway on the driveshaft, but the point I am making is that in order for the control arm to be mounted flush with the bottom of the frame rail, the best place is to mount it is in that crook. Then move the t-case/tranny up as much as you want plus clock the t-case enough so that the driveshaft clears the lower control arm with the shaft fully drooped...AND is flush with the bottom of the frame. THEN, build the rest of the crossmember to fit these parameters.

As for my upper arm, I do think I am going to use a mount coming off the crossmember between the driveshaft and the tranny just like Crash and Jes did. The auto tranny shifter tab and cable are going to need to be moved for upper arm clearance though. If you come up with a good way to do this, please let me know. Jeff

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

I'm using the middle hole here.

Arm length is right at 40". Vert seperation at the axle is 8", at the member, 6".

Jes uses 34" long arms and he is 8" at the axler and 7" at the member.

Kind of makes sense, since the links are converging, that mine are closer together at the frame. They both seem to act very much the same on climbs. Very neutral.

CRASH

Thanks for the numbers. Jeff

[Roxtar]

I mean by locating the drivers side lower control arm just under the front driveshaft in the crook created by the joint between the shaft and the double cardon joint with the shaft fully drooped. Crash moved his in towards the center of the rig so that the mount was offset about halfway on the driveshaft, but the point I am making is that in order for the control arm to be mounted flush with the bottom of the frame rail, the best place is to mount it is in that crook. Then move the t-case/tranny up as much as you want plus clock the t-case enough so that the driveshaft clears the lower control arm with the shaft fully drooped...AND is flush with the bottom of the frame. THEN, build the rest of the crossmember to fit these parameters.

As for my upper arm, I do think I am going to use a mount coming off the crossmember between the driveshaft and the tranny just like Crash and Jes did. The auto tranny shifter tab and cable are going to need to be moved for upper arm clearance though. If you come up with a good way to do this, please let me know. Jeff
I'm a couple weeks behind you. I'm doing the inner frame rails now and starting the X-member next. That upper mount does look like the bitch-o-the-bunch though.
I'm thinking about cutting a hole in the tranny tunnel and bolting on an access panel to get to it easier.

[CRASH]

I'm a couple weeks behind you. I'm doing the inner frame rails now and starting the X-member next. That upper mount does look like the bitch-o-the-bunch though.
I'm thinking about cutting a hole in the tranny tunnel and bolting on an access panel to get to it easier.

An access panel for the front driveshaft CV bolts is nearly a must. Jes executed his quite nicely.

CRASH

[Roxtar]

An access panel for the front driveshaft CV bolts is nearly a must. Jes executed his quite nicely.

CRASHJes, more pics?

[Jes]

Here's a shot of the access hole...
http://www.fototime.com/{446AD5C6-58B0-469E-92C1-832A99DC868F}/picture.JPG
...I think I used a 3" holesaw for it. You can also see the plate welded to the tunnel that the upper link mount attaches to(as well as a bunch of silicone holding my twin stick shifter boot on :D ).
I would say at this point that the upper link mount reinforcement is necessary, there's a lot of torque load through that upper link.

[Paul S]

I think 3 link'n is going to surpass sheetmetal hack'n in 05 :)

Jeff, you need to move to the West Coast :cheers:

Paul

[CRASH]

I think 3 link'n is going to surpass sheetmetal hack'n in 05 :)

Jeff, you need to move to the West Coast :cheers:

Paul


Did I miss sheetmetal hacking in '04?

Oh, right, i only had half a Jeep in '04.

CRASH

[Roxtar]

Jeff, you need to move to the West Coast :cheers:

PaulJeff, like any real man, prefers to stay in the MW, where men are men and sheep are scared.

[BrettM]

Did I miss sheetmetal hacking in '04?

Oh, right, i only had half a Jeep in '04.

CRASH
http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/standard?pictid={A5DCDE52-E013-4029-8C8E-121E6A12BCBC}&exp=f&moddt=38433.671478287

[CRASH]

:wierd:

CRASH

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Hidden/Missing 3 Link Northern WI LIVES! After another three day long work session with LATE nights, I drove the beast to work this morning with three long links. :D Initial reactions are that small sharp bumps that used to give a sharp jolt now just give a little thump. I like. :) Other than that, it drove pretty much just like it did before...which is good I think. Lower arms are at 11 degrees down and the upper arm is at 10 degrees down. separation at the axle is 8.5" and 7" at the crossmember. As for the tranny shifter, I trimmed a little of the tranny housing and rebent the shifter bracket to reposition it close to the housing. I then redid the lever to make it extend out 1" instead of 2" while keeping the length at 2". This made enough clearance between the shifter and the long arm.

I am finding out that adjusting arm length is a bitch. Wish I had right and left hand threads on either end. Initial settings showed the upper to be too long as when compressed without springs, the steering interfered with a few things. So, I cut the arm down an inch and reinstalled and everything seemed ok. With the springs in and the rig on the ground it looked good. However, after testing in the field this morning, the tires are hitting the rear of the wheel well when turned and there appears to be room in front of the tires. So, now I've got to readjust the length of the lowers AND go back to lengthen the upper. Fine tuning I guess. I'm getting a bit tired of wrenching though! Jeff

http://share.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=EeEN2jZq0btmHq

[JerryV]

Looks good Jeff!

Can't wait to see it up close and personal :-)

Jerry

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

So, you coming to Apple Valley? I cobbled together the upper control arm from my two old lowers and a piece of additional tube with the three pieces welded together. I need to get a fresh piece of tube threaded and was thinking you had the threading connection! :) Jeff

[JerryV]

So, you coming to Apple Valley? I cobbled together the upper control arm from my two old lowers and a piece of additional tube with the three pieces welded together. I need to get a fresh piece of tube threaded and was thinking you had the threading connection! :) Jeff


I will not be able to make Apple Valley.

I was hoping that the upper wasn't two pieces of tube butted together and welded. :hang:

I do have a threading connection and that would not be a problem. Price is right too.


Jerry

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

I will not be able to make Apple Valley.

I was hoping that the upper wasn't two pieces of tube butted together and welded. :hang:

I do have a threading connection and that would not be a problem. Price is right too.


Jerry

Actually, why exactly is my welded tube so bad? Many folks run tube with welded in bungs in the ends and that's ok. What's wrong with a good weld in the middle? There isn't any real side load on this link. Many rear axles use butt welded housing ends. I don't intend to leave it in there as it was more a test piece to get the bugs worked out, but really, what is wrong with it? Oh, I adjusted lengths a bit last night and think I'm ok at 36" lowers and 34" upper. I would like to tilt the pinion up a bit more, but that takes away from caster, so I'm not going to. I should have built in a little more pinion angle during the d44 build...but I was sitting lower when I built that too. Jeff

[Roxtar]

Actually, why exactly is my welded tube so bad? Many folks run tube with welded in bungs in the ends and that's ok. What's wrong with a good weld in the middle? There isn't any real side load on this link. Many rear axles use butt welded housing ends. I don't intend to leave it in there as it was more a test piece to get the bugs worked out, but really, what is wrong with it? Oh, I adjusted lengths a bit last night and think I'm ok at 36" lowers and 34" upper. I would like to tilt the pinion up a bit more, but that takes away from caster, so I'm not going to. I should have built in a little more pinion angle during the d44 build...but I was sitting lower when I built that too. JeffThere's nothing wrong with welding the tube. Just be sure to cut a good camfer into both pieces so you get the weld into as much surface as possible (you want to create a big "V" to fill with weld). The knock on butt-welding tube comes from people who just put two square edges together and then weld "around" the outside. That is basically just creating a section of tube that is very thin walled (just the thickness of the weld)

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

So kid, what's your progress report? I'm driving mine. :) Jeff

[Roxtar]

So kid, what's your progress report? Did you get my email?
Got the front axle in, measured and welded up the LCAs, installed them and everything was good in the world.
Then I looked at the DS.
It'll hit the x-member LCA mount after about 2" of droop.
Apparently, clocking the TC is a needed mod with the URF 3 link without some inventive mount placement.
Hopefully that will solve the problem.
Ready for the UCA mount.
Then things really get fun.
Starting the rear, Fox air shocked, 4 link.
Yeehaa
I'm driving mine. :) JeffBite me. :D

[CRASH]

I should have built in a little more pinion angle during the d44 build...but I was sitting lower when I built that too. Jeff


It's funny, people (not you) tell me my caster/pinion angle recommendations are too much, and then later, they always say this!

As far as I'm concerned, it's difficult to have too much pinion angle. Very easy to have too little, though.

CRASH

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Did you get my email?
Got the front axle in, measured and welded up the LCAs, installed them and everything was good in the world.
Then I looked at the DS.
It'll hit the x-member LCA mount after about 2" of droop.
Apparently, clocking the TC is a needed mod with the URF 3 link without some inventive mount placement.
Hopefully that will solve the problem.
Ready for the UCA mount.
Then things really get fun.
Starting the rear, Fox air shocked, 4 link.
Yeehaa
Bite me. :D

I must not have gotten the email as I haven't seen anything relating this progress. Perhaps I overlooked it? Anyway, what did I tell you about the driveshaft droop vs lower control arm placement? That's the key to this thing! I was a little off on that, but it will work fine. However, the way I built my system, I can get to the bolts for the front driveshaft at the t-case output just fine...without a t-case skid plate that is. Clocking the t-case a little was definitely necessary. Making the auto tranny shifter lever extend less from the side of the tranny worked very slick too. Same length throw, just less out from the side of the case. I actually cut the cable mount bracket in half with the intent to do more work, but when it came down to it, I welded it back together in a stock configuration and just bent the two ends a little to push it up against the tranny case more. I also trimmed a little bit off a couple webs on the tranny case to push the cable tighter to the case. There must actually be more room in some respects compared to Andy and Jes's manual tranny's because I am using a larg Currie JJ at the crossmember end and it fits with no problem. I can't remove it's mounting bolt without dropping the crossmember...or cutting a hole in the floor though. Good luck, Jeff

[Roxtar]

There must actually be more room in some respects compared to Andy and Jes's manual tranny's because I am using a larg Currie JJ at the crossmember end and it fits with no problem. I can't remove it's mounting bolt without dropping the crossmember...or cutting a hole in the floor though. Good luck, Jeff
I see from the pics that your x-member UCA bracket is wider (to mount the JJ) than the post that holds it. Will the bracket clear the DS when installing the x-member or do you have to put in the DS after the x-member is in place?

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

I see from the pics that your x-member UCA bracket is wider (to mount the JJ) than the post that holds it. Will the bracket clear the DS when installing the x-member or do you have to put in the DS after the x-member is in place?

Well, I don't know! I put the painted crossmember up with the JJ in place and tightened down prior to installing the Driveshaft. I know it took a little contorting to get it in position near the exhaust with that hanger. I just went out and looked and would have to say probably not. Maybe without the bolt for the JJ in place, but I don't think the bolt will clear the driveshaft. I hope not to remove the crossmember very often since it now holds ALL the suspension mounting points...the one downside to this setup. Jeff

[Roxtar]

Well, I don't know! I put the painted crossmember up with the JJ in place and tightened down prior to installing the Driveshaft. I know it took a little contorting to get it in position near the exhaust with that hanger. I just went out and looked and would have to say probably not. Maybe without the bolt for the JJ in place, but I don't think the bolt will clear the driveshaft. I hope not to remove the crossmember very often since it now holds ALL the suspension mounting points...the one downside to this setup. JeffI guess you have a point there. With everything that's now involved in dropping the x-member, what's adding one more thing?
I AM definately going to cut out an access panel in the trans tunnel to be able to get to the mount from above. The idea of dropping the whole thing down to service that one joint is out of the question.

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

I guess you have a point there. With everything that's now involved in dropping the x-member, what's adding one more thing?
I AM definately going to cut out an access panel in the trans tunnel to be able to get to the mount from above. The idea of dropping the whole thing down to service that one joint is out of the question.

If you simply want to pump the joint with grease, that can quite easily be done from below. If, however you want to REMOVE the joint, then a small hole would need to be made in the floor board for the bolt to pass through in order to remove it from the mount. Jeff

Hey, who moved my thread!? :)

[Roxtar]

If you simply want to pump the joint with grease, that can quite easily be done from below. If, however you want to REMOVE the joint, then a small hole would need to be made in the floor board for the bolt to pass through in order to remove it from the mount. JeffI'll be cutting roughly a 6" X 8" hole so I can get at it easier for any servicing. Especially if I use an RE SF joint there instead of a heim. The RE joints need occasional retightening.

Hey, who moved my thread!? :)Guess you're advanced now :worship:

[Paul S]

I'll be cutting roughly a 6" X 8" hole so I can get at it easier for any servicing. Especially if I use an RE SF joint there instead of a heim. The RE joints need occasional retightening.

Guess we're advanced now, huh?

I can't believe you're going to cut a hole in your floor, this Mod. is so not worth it.

paul

[Roxtar]

I can't believe you're going to cut a hole in your floor, this Mod. is so not worth it.

paulReally?
A half hour (at most) to give me the ability to service the rear UCA joint without having to remove the entire x-member?
Worth it to me.

[Paul S]

Really?
A half hour (at most) to give me the ability to service the rear UCA mount without having to remove the entire x-member?
Worth it to me.

No, I mean the entire hidden 3 link isn't worth it if you have to cut the floor :)

Paul

[Roxtar]

No, I mean the entire hidden 3 link isn't worth it if you have to cut the floor :)

Pauljoke P Pronunciation Key (j k)
n.
1. Something said or done to evoke laughter or amusement, especially an amusing story with a punch line.
2. A mischievous trick; a prank.
3. An amusing or ludicrous incident or situation.
4. Informal.
a. Something not to be taken seriously; a triviality: The accident was no joke.
b. An object of amusement or laughter; a laughingstock: His loud tie was the joke of the office

:doh:

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

I'll be cutting roughly a 6" X 8" hole so I can get at it easier for any servicing. Especially if I use an RE SF joint there instead of a heim. The RE joints need occasional retightening.

Guess you're advanced now :worship:

There's no need for that big of a hole. I doubt your that big you know. :) Seriously, all you might need is a hole big enough for the bolt. I don't think you can even get at the joint well enough in an easily accessible spot to tighten the screw while it's installed. Total removal from the vehicle is the only way to go for servicing the joint as I see it. Once the bolt is removed, you can pull the whole control arm out from the front, tighten the joint with the spiffy RE tool, grease it, and reinstall. You will however have to hold the axle in place to prevent it from flopping over with the upper arm removed. Jeff

[Roxtar]

There's no need for that big of a hole. I doubt your that big you know. :) Seriously, all you might need is a hole big enough for the bolt. I don't think you can even get at the joint well enough in an easily accessible spot to tighten the screw while it's installed. Total removal from the vehicle is the only way to go for servicing the joint as I see it. Once the bolt is removed, you can pull the whole control arm out from the front, tighten the joint with the spiffy RE tool, grease it, and reinstall. You will however have to hold the axle in place to prevent it from flopping over with the upper arm removed. JeffActually, I designed my mounts so that I can tighten up on the joint without removing it. I left enough room to get a spanner wrench in. I don't do photo hosting so I will email you a pic to show what I mean.

[CRASH]

Now you guys know why I laugh so hard when I get PM's asking me if the kit is "bolt on" and when it's going to be for sale.

Can you imagine an instruction sheet that includes a template for cutting the floor, the LCA mounts, the exhaust, and hole-sawing the frame?

Most monkeys wouldn't get past the first page before their rig was molested beyond recognition!

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Now you guys know why I laugh so hard when I get PM's asking me if the kit is "bolt on" and when it's going to be for sale.

Can you imagine an instruction sheet that includes a template for cutting the floor, the LCA mounts, the exhaust, and hole-sawing the frame?

Most monkeys wouldn't get past the first page before their rig was molested beyond recognition!

You get the pm's about bolt on because you "joke" about it being "bolt on"! Duh! :) And what's to say our rigs aren't molested beyond recognition?! :) I know Brads was looking pretty molested after BOTW! Jeff

[Roxtar]

I know Brads was looking pretty molested after BOTW! JeffNaaa, she likes it rough.

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Actually, I designed my mounts so that I can tighten up on the joint without removing it. I left enough room to get a spanner wrench in. I don't do photo hosting so I will email you a pic to show what I mean.

Well, I imagine it is possible to use a different kind of spanner wrench that can slip in from the side, but I still think total removal is a better way to service the joints. I've had a set of Currie JJ's on my rig for quite awhile and they never seem to take grease without total disassembly. Once it's out, one can grease them and rotate them in all directions to work the grease around. The Currie JJ's use a bolt that is drilled down the center and then has a hole in the side that passes grease into the cavity between the bolt and the inside of the ball. Then there are two holes in the ball that are supposed to transmit grease through to the races. However, the holes in the ball seem to get plugged on me and I have to disassemble the joint, clean the holes, and reassemble. Maybe I'm not greasing them often enough, but that has been my experience. Total pain in the ass. I'm hoping the RE joints will accept grease better from the outside. Jeff

[CRASH]

RE joints are far easier to grease. Just did all of mine last night, as well as tightened them up. They've been on, untouched, for 9 months and they each took 120-180 degrees of tightening. RE's seem to have an initial break-in period, and you mayh ave to re-torque twice, and then they are solid for years.

I use marine gease in mine, seems to flow better and last longer.

Well, I imagine it is possible to use a different kind of spanner wrench that can slip in from the side, but I still think total removal is a better way to service the joints. I've had a set of Currie JJ's on my rig for quite awhile and they never seem to take grease without total disassembly. Once it's out, one can grease them and rotate them in all directions to work the grease around. The Currie JJ's use a bolt that is drilled down the center and then has a hole in the side that passes grease into the cavity between the bolt and the inside of the ball. Then there are two holes in the ball that are supposed to transmit grease through to the races. However, the holes in the ball seem to get plugged on me and I have to disassemble the joint, clean the holes, and reassemble. Maybe I'm not greasing them often enough, but that has been my experience. Total pain in the ass. I'm hoping the RE joints will accept grease better from the outside. Jeff

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

RE joints are far easier to grease. Just did all of mine last night, as well as tightened them up. They've been on, untouched, for 9 months and they each took 120-180 degrees of tightening. RE's seem to have an initial break-in period, and you mayh ave to re-torque twice, and then they are solid for years.

I use marine gease in mine, seems to flow better and last longer.

So how tight is one supposed to make the RE joints? I tightened them up snug and then backed off to the first spot for that set screw. Jeff

[CRASH]

So how tight is one supposed to make the RE joints? I tightened them up snug and then backed off to the first spot for that set screw. Jeff


I would have gone FORWARD to the next set screw. At RE, they assemble them in a press, then use a torque wrench to tighten!

I usually go very tight with a breaker bar. So tight that you can't move the ball.

[Roxtar]

The only problem I've had with RE joints is that when they wear down you occasionally have to grind a little off the inside faces of the delrin races to create space between them for the grease to get in. (Although I would guess you should probably replace the races by the time you get that much wear.)

[OT]

The only problem I've had with RE joints is that when they wear down you occasionally have to grind a little off the inside faces of the delrin races to create space between them for the grease to get in. (Although I would guess you should probably replace the races by the time you get that much wear.)
Here's some of Brad's updated pics.

http://www.savepic.com/freepicturehosting/is.php?i=380077&img=D30-5sm.jpg

http://www.savepic.com/freepicturehosting/is.php?i=380074&img=D30-3sm.jpg

http://www.savepic.com/freepicturehosting/is.php?i=380071&img=D30-6sm.jpg

http://www.savepic.com/freepicturehosting/is.php?i=380076&img=x-member_top3_sm.jpg

http://www.savepic.com/freepicturehosting/is.php?i=380073&img=x-member_bot2_sm.jpg

http://www.savepic.com/freepicturehosting/is.php?i=380070&img=rear_cage_tie_top_sm.jpg

http://www.savepic.com/freepicturehosting/is.php?i=380072&img=rear_cage_tie_bot_sm.jpg

http://www.savepic.com/freepicturehosting/is.php?i=380075&img=8.8_sm.jpg

http://www.savepic.com/freepicturehosting/is.php?i=380069&img=RE_joints_sm.jpg

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Thanks for getting those pics posted Terry! So Brad, am I seeing your crossmember correctly in that it hangs 2" or so BELOW the frame? Sure looks like it. Jeff

[Roxtar]

Thanks for getting those pics posted Terry! So Brad, am I seeing your crossmember correctly in that it hangs 2" or so BELOW the frame? Sure looks like it. JeffYup, I'll never be fit for the WCGID crew.
Oh, the shame.

[bj-666]

Here's some of Brad's updated pics.

http://www.savepic.com/freepicturehosting/is.php?i=380077&img=D30-5sm.jpg

http://www.savepic.com/freepicturehosting/is.php?i=380074&img=D30-3sm.jpg


is that pipe in the background going to be the lca's looks like it should be strong enough for mud but in the rocks i would have to reconsider:laugh3:

seriously what is with all the trussing seems i didn't read all pages of the thread but is this guy running at speed or something.

[Roxtar]

seriously what is with all the trussing seems i didn't read all pages of the thread but is this guy running at speed or something.Just doing all I can to get the turd polished to a high shine.
I'm running alloy axles, Jantz Superjoints,and an ARB so I'm trying to give it the best chance to survive.
One of the weak points in the 30 is housing flex. Well, this should keep that to a minimum.

[bj-666]

ha yea i guess so how bout the 8.8 just figured you would go crazy while ya got it out?

[ChuckD]

Hey kid just be sure to check the clearance on the lower truss.

http://www.kermantel.net/chuckd/midevilturdy/photos/photo4.jpg

Mine dented my oil pan. So far no ill effects, just thought you should know.

[Missiletech]

I plan on welding some steel to my d30/35 for the time being, what wall thickness do you set to for the axle tubes? I don't wanna toast through my shi$$nit. And what would be adequate for bracing material? I wanna do it good enough not to flex my tubes, as I noticed while a rear tire was lifted a while back.. that housing was whimpering, and I can't have any of that.. its all I gots for now. Thanks

-SteVe

[Roxtar]

I plan on welding some steel to my d30/35 for the time being, what wall thickness do you set to for the axle tubes? I don't wanna toast through my shi$$nit. And what would be adequate for bracing material? I wanna do it good enough not to flex my tubes, as I noticed while a rear tire was lifted a while back.. that housing was whimpering, and I can't have any of that.. its all I gots for now. Thanks

-SteVeI used 1/4" on the front trusses and 2X2X1/4 wall sq tube on the rear.

[Missiletech]

still need to figure out wall thickness, if I'm GMAW the trusses on... and I used some 1/4" would I just set met welder to 1/4" material? Or do you have another idea in mind? Thanks.

-SteVe

[Roxtar]

still need to figure out wall thickness, if I'm GMAW the trusses on... and I used some 1/4" would I just set met welder to 1/4" material? Or do you have another idea in mind? Thanks.

-SteVe :huh:

[ChuckD]

still need to figure out wall thickness, if I'm GMAW the trusses on... and I used some 1/4" would I just set met welder to 1/4" material? Or do you have another idea in mind? Thanks.

-SteVe


My trusses are out of 3/16" and I believe the wall thickness on the D30 is 3/8" wall, Crash may know for sure.

[Missiletech]

thanks, thats the info I was looking for.

-steve

[Roxtar]

Had a good weekend. Clocked my TC to get the DS clearence and set everything in place.
It all seems right and ready to clean up and paint.
Scary.
I had clearence issues with the X-member upper mount (the crux of this buildup).
I'm using a 1" heim on the upper rear and the 1" locking nut I welded on the mount would hit the trans when removing/installing the x-member.
To alleviate this I made the upper mount tower separate from the x-member, drilling/tapping two 5/8" holes to bolt it together.
This will allow me to bolt the upper rear mount tower to the UCA before bolting the whole assembly to the x-member.
Far easier to get everything in place and two 5/8 grade 8 bolts should be plenty.

[Roxtar]

The good kharma was nice while it lasted.
Today, pulling the shift arm lever on the AW4 and snapped off the threaded stud.
Virtually no indication. Just snap.
Can the shift arm be replaced without dropping the trans?
I pulled the pan and the shift arm isn't visible (lotsa valving in the way).
Does anyone have an AW4 service manual?

[BrettM]

service manual here under transmission: http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PDFs/index.html

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

I did the exact same thing to a friends Jeep while "testing" something on mine a long time ago. Man did that piss me off! I don't recall all the details, but I do know I dropped the valve body and lost a couple springs and had to find a friendly knowledgeable dealer to help me get the springs back in their correct location. I know I got a new shaft from the dealer and was able to get things back together. The rig is still being driven, so I guess I didn't screw it up too bad. :) Good luck. Jeff

[Roxtar]

UPDATE:
Well, it's on the road. Very happy.
Even while way out of alignment and very unbalanced, heavy-ass tires (Maxxis Creepy Crawlers) this thing rides far better than it has in a long time. I did have to replace the front swaybar. Without it the rear four link was slightly loose :wow: .
No more death wobble (anyone behind me at BOTW can appreciate that) and even able to take my hands off the wheel at 60mph.

Jeff, what's the word on yours?

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

I've been driving mine for awhile now and haven't noticed anything bad. I'm still using a sway bar too. I took it down to lower Michigan towing a pop up camper and it worked out fine. While wheeling the dunes I experienced some noticeable banging noises from underneath, but couldn't find anything really hitting bad or anything else wrong and it drove fine on the street. I believe the stock tranny mount is allowing the tranny/t-case to move around a bit and the rear cv joint is hitting a bracket every now and then when the whole rig is slamming up and down over whoops type bumps, but it hasn't happened during daily driving. Also, I think the t-case is hitting the floor boards during the same violent movements. I'm pretty sure the front springs are a bit soft for sand dunes combined with the weight of my rig. Also, the bilstien shocks from Rusty's are pretty soft. I haven't done any ROCK trails though because as you know, we don't have any in the midwest!! :) I did remove the lower control arms once and tighten the joints as well as found a semi loose control arm bolt. It's been tight and quiet since I put the lower arms back in and tightened the mounting bolts. I also swapped back to a XJ pitman arm from the TJ arm for a slightly flatter drag link angle. That's about it. Jeff

[gearwhine]

Hey Jeff, how close are your LCA frame end mounts to the frame? And how close do the lower links get to the frame in compression, especially passenger side since I see your trackbars got some angle to it. Thanks. _nicko_

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

The axle mounts are in the same location as stock other than being raised about 2". The frame mounts are 8" in from the inside edge of the frame. Looking straight up from the ground there is about 1" of distance between the control arm and the frame where the front of the old lower control arm mount would have been. I'm restricted to about 4" of compression with my bump stops and I think I could go more without having problems with the lower arms contacting the frame. I don't remember the separation with the axle fully stuffed, but I do recall that there wasn't an issue. I think Jes and Crash have their frame mounts inboarded an inch or maybe two from mine and I'm not sure on their compression distance. HTH, Jeff

[Roxtar]

I went the other way (SOP for me. Can't do it the easy way) and put my lower frame mounts just inside (about 2") the frame rails.
The DS is just inboard of the mounts while drooped.

[gearwhine]

thanks, I'm kinda mocking up my lower arms now, and the most I can move the links is 5" away from the frame...and almsot 6" if I do some exhaust work, and that's the furthest inner tab...so the center of the RE joint will maybe be about about 3.5" to 4" from the frame.

This is only becasue I refuse to mount the arms to my crossmember, and I need them to not hang below my frame. I will be cutting my stock control arm mounts off soon so I can better mock it up, but I have a feeling it's not going to work with straight links, anybody bend 1.75" 3/8" wall without breaking their bender?

kid, can I get some pictures of yours only 2" from the inside...how high up or down low are they mounted? seems low if you're talking about the DS being close when drooped. where did you mount the links on your axle to make them fit? and what the hell is SOP? :)

Thanks for the numbers _nicko_

[4ward]

anybody bend 1.75" 3/8" wall without breaking their bender?

_

Use a torch to heat it up. Not glowing red, but darn close. You may or may not score the tube. I wouldn't consider it an issue though. Why so thick? I've been using 1.75 .25 wall on several severely beaten rock buggies without problems.

[Lawn Cher']

and what the hell is SOP? :)

I can handle this one... Standard Operating Procedure.

[Roxtar]

thanks, I'm kinda mocking up my lower arms now, and the most I can move the links is 5" away from the frame...and almsot 6" if I do some exhaust work, and that's the furthest inner tab...so the center of the RE joint will maybe be about about 3.5" to 4" from the frame.

This is only becasue I refuse to mount the arms to my crossmember, and I need them to not hang below my frame. I will be cutting my stock control arm mounts off soon so I can better mock it up, but I have a feeling it's not going to work with straight links, anybody bend 1.75" 3/8" wall without breaking their bender?

kid, can I get some pictures of yours only 2" from the inside...how high up or down low are they mounted? seems low if you're talking about the DS being close when drooped. where did you mount the links on your axle to make them fit? and what the hell is SOP? :)

Thanks for the numbers _nicko_
Here's a link to the picture thread:
http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=61509&highlight=kid4lyf
Why don't you want to use the X-member for mounting the arms?
I don't know what else you can use for longarm mounting without going below the frame rails.
My x-member is more the traditional OEM shape, hanging below the frame rails. Definately not WCGID approved.
I lose some clearance this way but it made the build a lot easier (plus, I was able to start with my existing x-member..

[gearwhine]

Thought about heat, don't know what heat will do to the cold drawn process though.

What I have is 1.5" .25 wall and 1.75" .120 wall, figure that the 1.5 isn't enough for ~28" length, I'd rather overbuild it a bit.

I am not a fan of mounting on the crossmember becasue you can't easily take it off. Trail purposes mostly if some t-case or tranny problems occur. Plus the convenience of working on it at home easily.

The mounts wil be supported by the crossmember, but not fixed to them.

and shit kid....you got enough steel on that thing? :) it looks good though, thanks for the link...I missed it when it was around.

_nicko_

[Roxtar]

and shit kid....you got enough steel on that thing? :) My business relies on the steel industry.
Just doing my part to keep it healthy.