Lighters banned on airlines

[RichP]

OH man, is there some department in the govt that is paid to come up with really really stupid ideas.... is there some kind of awards dinner for the best stupid idea of the year, does the award look like this :moon: only in plastic.
Why not just knock all the crap off and have EVERYONE who boards an aircraft do so in the nude including crew....
I mean WTF....

[wescam]

didn't they say you can carry up to four matchbooks but not lighters?

[rockwerks]

A bic lighter and a few matches combined with a metal watch band wrapped in tape or tin foil is a quite potant bomb.

Many soldiers in Viet Nam where killed and injured by bic lighter and nail bomb

I saw on discovery channel

[jjvande]

not to mention laptop/cellphone batteries...they contain lithium...highly reactive metal


take a fully charged laptop battery...puncture through it with something metal and you've got a flaming frisbee of death:flame:

[RichP]

I've already been hassled wearing my USN beltbuckle, the ones with the submarines I've served on. Now the Ronson's from those same boats are illegal, it's not just butane lighters.

[rockwerks]

Thats because a lighter could be used to damage wiring, set upholstery etc on fire.

ITs because of an incidnet a few months ago a disturbed passenger tried toset the plane on fire in the toilet,. cant find the lin now though

[wescam]

yeah I couldn't get past the screeners last time with my old green jungle boots

i was going to put my kids on the plane and they held them at x-ray

even showed them my active duty id and everything

but they missed a pair of scissors in my daughters backpack (she didn't remember to leave them at home and saw them digging for some gum)

heh.

[RichP]

It was brought about by that idiot from England who had explosives in his sneakers and his lighter failed to work so he then tried matches and almost succeeded. They should have taken him out on the tarmac after landing and THEN lit them, while they were on his feet. No check that, then he'd be collecting disability and file a big lawsuit...and probably win...

[rockwerks]

It was brought about by that idiot from England who had explosives in his sneakers and his lighter failed to work so he then tried matches and almost succeeded. They should have taken him out on the tarmac after landing and THEN lit them, while they were on his feet. No check that, then he'd be collecting disability and file a big lawsuit...and probably win...

Ya know none of these measure bother me, its better than a possible alternative

Grin and bear it and giggle about the situation, what else can ya do

[RichP]

Simple, I avoid traveling as much as possible, prefer driving or train vs sitting in a seat made for a 12yo. I remember in the 60's marines who were on PCS orders carrying their M14's onboad with them. I guess I'm one of the shrinking minority that believes you personally have some responsibiltiy for your own personal safety and that uncle sam needs to stay out of alot of stuff they are getting into. I know that if someone tried to hijack an aircraft I was on with fingernail clippers or 2" pocket knife I'd feed it to them with the pointy ends open.
Curious if it will be my kids or my grandchildren that will have to bear the brunt of embedded RFID tags.

[GSequoia]

yeah I couldn't get past the screeners last time with my old green jungle boots

WTF was wrong with the boots?!

[Lawn Cher']

WTF was wrong with the boots?!

The smell, perhaps.

[rockwerks]

Simple, I avoid traveling as much as possible, prefer driving or train vs sitting in a seat made for a 12yo. I remember in the 60's marines who were on PCS orders carrying their M14's onboad with them. I guess I'm one of the shrinking minority that believes you personally have some responsibiltiy for your own personal safety and that uncle sam needs to stay out of alot of stuff they are getting into. I know that if someone tried to hijack an aircraft I was on with fingernail clippers or 2" pocket knife I'd feed it to them with the pointy ends open.
Curious if it will be my kids or my grandchildren that will have to bear the brunt of embedded RFID tags.

point taken and appreciated.

[Lou]

....Curious if it will be my kids or my grandchildren that will have to bear the brunt of embedded RFID tags.Sadly, WALMART may make this a reality.

[RichP]

WTF was wrong with the boots?!

All my issue panamas have steel plates in the soles, punji stakes.

[GSequoia]

Understood, but a lot of mens shoes have steel spines - I was surprised to learn that two different pair of lame dress shoes set off the detectors.

Damn paranoia!

[RichP]

Understood, but a lot of mens shoes have steel spines - I was surprised to learn that two different pair of lame dress shoes set off the detectors.

Damn paranoia!

Not paranoia, they are just getting us mentally conditioned to this stuff so when it comes time to take it to the next level we won't baaaaa too much...

[Boatwrench]

It only takes a relatively small amount of explosives to bring down a plane. Remember Richard Reid tried to light his gym shoes on fire with a match book. Also, Al-Queda had a plot to use lighters and wristwatch batteries to bring down several commercial airliners over the pacific prior to 9-11. I don't think we are being snowed by the goverment on this one.

That party-line said...I don't understand why there is not a system to check this stuff at the gate and pick it up when deplaning? The costs would probably be incredilbly burdensome and passed on to all travelers is my only thought preventing it.

The last time I flew home from ROK on a MAC charter, the marines flying on-board carried their weapons, but a part of the mechanism had been removed and collected prior to boarding. They still had their bayonets though.

[rockwerks]

It only takes a relatively small amount of explosives to bring down a plane. Remember Richard Reid tried to light his gym shoes on fire with a match book. Also, Al-Queda had a plot to use lighters and wristwatch batteries to bring down several commercial airliners over the pacific prior to 9-11. I don't think we are being snowed by the goverment on this one.

That party-line said...I don't understand why there is not a system to check this stuff at the gate and pick it up when deplaning? The costs would probably be incredilbly burdensome and passed on to all travelers is my only thought preventing it.

The last time I flew home from ROK on a MAC charter, the marines flying on-board carried their weapons, but a part of the mechanism had been removed and collected prior to boarding. They still had their bayonets though.

Its called put in in our luggage but your carry on. TIs not that you cant fly with tat stuff just not with you on your person or carry on.

[Fergie]

I don't remember his name exactly, but there was a Medal of Honor recipient that was told he could not wear his Medal on board because of the pointy ends.

Just like what was said...conditioning for National IDs...the balck helicopters have already arrived!

Fergie

[RichP]

He was a MoH receipient and the gate gestapo's had no idea what a MoH looked like, thought it was 'dangerous' looking and confiscated it, stopped just a hair short of arresting him. He was on his way to give a talk about about his military experience and such...
Of course I can see their point, somebody who is awarded a MoH could be considered a dangerous person having taken, like all of us prior service people, the oath to protect against those enemies both within and without...

[Eagle]

It was brought about by that idiot from England who had explosives in his sneakers and his lighter failed to work so he then tried matches and almost succeeded. They should have taken him out on the tarmac after landing and THEN lit them, while they were on his feet. No check that, then he'd be collecting disability and file a big lawsuit...and probably win...
Yeah, I heard a radio announcer today say that was the reason.

The problem I have with that is, that incident was more than two years ago. The trial is over and the guy has long since been sent to prison. If that was the reason, wouldn't it have made sense to ban them as quickly as possible after the event, rather than wait more than TWO YEARS?

[Eagle]

I don't remember his name exactly, but there was a Medal of Honor recipient that was told he could not wear his Medal on board because of the pointy ends.

Just like what was said...conditioning for National IDs...the balck helicopters have already arrived!

Fergie
That was GENERAL Joe Foss (now deceased), and at the time he was something like 82 years old. It just goes to demonstrate the complete lack of mental capacity of the screeners, and of the TSA in general.

[Fergie]

That was GENERAL Joe Foss (now deceased), and at the time he was something like 82 years old. It just goes to demonstrate the complete lack of mental capacity of the screeners, and of the TSA in general.
Thanks for the name. I looked it up after the post to make sure as I felt embarassed for not knowing.

Fergie

[IH8RDS]

It only takes a relatively small amount of explosives to bring down a plane. Remember Richard Reid tried to light his gym shoes on fire with a match book. Also, Al-Queda had a plot to use lighters and wristwatch batteries to bring down several commercial airliners over the pacific prior to 9-11. I don't think we are being snowed by the goverment on this one.

That party-line said...I don't understand why there is not a system to check this stuff at the gate and pick it up when deplaning? The costs would probably be incredilbly burdensome and passed on to all travelers is my only thought preventing it.

The last time I flew home from ROK on a MAC charter, the marines flying on-board carried their weapons, but a part of the mechanism had been removed and collected prior to boarding. They still had their bayonets though.

On a pre 9/11 flight to Kuwait We carried our M-16's (assembled) on a commercial flight. You should of seen us all going through the metal detectors. The look on the people's faces was PRICELESS.

[BruteXJ]

I've worked for the airlines (and dealt with the TSA since their infancy) for a turbulent 5+ years now, so if I may:

The lighter prohibition will go away in under a year. All it takes is one Senator who won't give up his Colibri to light his cigars. The reason for the delay in reaction to the Richard Reid (shoe-bomber) scenario is simple-beauracracy.

Don't blame the people at the checkpoint (unless they're a$$hats) they don't make the rules, they know most of the rules are rediculous, but it's their jobs. Make them more miserable, and they will return the favor. Treat them like humans, and you'll get treated the same.

Now, the real issue:

What the Department of Homeland Security hasn't yet realized, but almost every airline and security employee has, is that the ONLY realistic threat to commercial aviation these days is explosives. It has been over 18 months, if not two years or more since any person has attempted violence onboard any commercial aircraft anywhere in the world. Not one single attempt at violence onboard a commercial airline has succeeded since 9-11. The last incident I can recall was onboard a Quantas Airlines flight from Sydney, Australia. A passenger became violent with a flight attendant and nearby passengers.....and was quickly beaten nearly to death by his fellow passengers. Even in the instance of a gun or knife smuggled aboard, passengers now know the consequences of inaction. Their lives are at stake, and they WILL take action. The door to the flight deck is locked, and will NOT be opened during flight, unless one of the pilots on board is an FAA approved FFDO, armed himself against terrorist actions. (I've my own opinions on this, but I'll let it go for now).

Were it not for the fact that some passengers get "innocently" drunk and a bit rowdy, I'd reccomend that all passengers be allowed to carry their weapon of choice, provided that any firearms be loaded with "SABO" rounds, which will not pierce the pressurized skin of the aircraft. For now, I think it will suffice that if anybody stands up with a boxcutter, they may as well put it to their own throat.

P.S. Don't mention the Russian crashes. The Russians have a history of building bad knock-offs of Boeing aircraft and blaming anyone but themselves when they fail.

[TC]

Just curious, what happens to all the banned stuff thats collected from the passengers? Theres got to be a shipload of neat confiscated goodies that people have had to part with. I'm guessing it all is required to be destroyed. TC

[BruteXJ]

It's destroyed.

[Grzz701]

Thats a shame. They could just put it up for auction like the customs has been doing for years. Used to get deals at those auctions.
Mark

[BruteXJ]

Yeah, but people already hate the TSA. If they thought they were making a buck off of their confiscated scissors and knives, they'd have a fit.

[Boatwrench]

"It has been over 18 months, if not two years or more since any person has attempted violence onboard any commercial aircraft anywhere in the world"

Nope...it was within th last two nights. Plane diverted to Denver as a fight broke out between two passengers. Flight attendant injured. Read it here at work.

Those TSA folks at the gates who confiscated the MOH are just like the Baltimore cop who didn't realize that a $2 bill was legal tender. Moron. it takes longer to explain to them, even with the authorization letter from SEC Mineda, that traveling under orders on military business, (and sometimes in uniform) that I'm exempt from secondary screening.

Tom

[BruteXJ]

I suppose I should have been more specific in regard to "attempts at violence in the commission of terrorist acts"...I do not, nor should any other, regard every retard who gets unruly on a plane as a terrorist. I think that would go against everyone's wishes.

As far as your military status. It is the responsibility of the airline you check in with to provide your "exempt" status. I push every one of my agents to make sure that not a single active or reserve duty military person gets the dreaded "S". You know what I mean. I make every effort to make sure that those who honor us with their service are given their due honor by our service.

As far as the "moron" comment....I'll just dismiss that.

[casm]

it takes longer to explain to them, even with the authorization letter from SEC Mineda, that traveling under orders on military business, (and sometimes in uniform) that I'm exempt from secondary screening.

They're particularly dim at LAX regarding federal firearm laws concerning unloaded guns in checked baggage. Several times I've gotten into arguments with them over refusing to hand over my combinations so that they can search the gun cases - I'll open it for them, they can search, and I'll reset the tumblers once they close it up but it's a federal offence to give anyone else access to a checked firearm. This usually results in them threatening to have me arrested, at which point I generally ask for the FBI SAIC (Special Agent In Charge) to explain the law to them since they obviously don't know it. Then they get the supervisor I'd requested 15 minutes previously and the cases are checked properly.

The TSA suck. Just when you thought commercial air travel couldn't be made any worse... But, hey, we're all safer because of them, right?

[bjoehandley]

not to mention laptop/cellphone batteries...they contain lithium...highly reactive metal take a fully charged laptop battery...puncture through it with something metal and you've got a flaming frisbee of death


Heres a good demonstration of that;

http://rchomepage.com/~dna/LipoFire.wmv

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t90077p1/?highlight=fire+lipo

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/upfiles/22732/Ge94506.jpg

[OT]

But, hey, we're all safer because of them, right?
Right.

I'll bet a dollar that there is thousands of families, right now, that wish the security was as overblown, like it is now, back in '01.

Anyone bitching about the enhanced security or lack of common sense in airport security, needs to remember what happens when the security gets lax and accept the cavity search with a smile and a thank you.

[Sarge]

It's destroyed.

Some areas do sell the confiscated items.

Sarge

[BruteXJ]

Well, no one said that uniformity was one of TSA's strong points.

[casm]

I'll bet a dollar that there is thousands of families, right now, that wish the security was as overblown, like it is now, back in '01.

Here, have a buck :D Thing is, there's overblown security and then there's overblown security. Do we have one single shred of evidence (no matter how tenuous) to show that the TSA are at all effective in preventing terrorism?

Anyone bitching about the enhanced security or lack of common sense in airport security, needs to remember what happens when the security gets lax and accept the cavity search with a smile and a thank you.

No, because you're still getting a hand rammed up your a**.

Like I said... There are ways of doing it, and then there are ways of doing it. The TSA is largely there so that the public has a visual cue that the government is doing something about the problem.

[RichP]

A few years ago I traveled around alot, field service, carried a techtronix portable O scope. Was going thru atlanta security after doing a local service call and when they asked me 'whats that' with me replying 'oscilloscope' several times I finally just em it was a tri-corder and they let me through...'beam me up scotty'.... Never even gave my used ignitor that I used for a keychain a second look... Ignitor is used to light fuse or detonate other initiators, looks like a short fat cigar, OD Green with a pull ring on one end and a shotgun primer on the other, fuse goes in the end by the primer, pull the ring back and a spring loaded firing pin slips loose and pops the primer...

[8Mud]

Physical security devices, installation, service and repair, was part of my job discription, when I worked for the State department. When I made any actual suggestions, for actually improving security, the desk jockys would get excited and try to shoot the messanger. I´d say the vast majority of security, is aimed at the appearance of security (like bomb resistant doors, in sheet rock walls). Thought up by office drones, rather than professionals.
You got to understand the mentality, if you make a good suggestion, you are saying that, all that could have been done, isn´t being done. Or in other words, someone dropped the ball. The exception is new technology, that hasn´t been previously available. Security implementation is a very convoluted process.
One of my favorite playtoys, was a pop up barracade, that would launch a medium sized truck :wstupid: . Remember having to put a safety cover on the actuator button, after the guards had inadvertantly lauched a few cars and trucks (usually by setting there coffee cup on the button).
If they could figure out how to remove EGO and politics, from the security implementation procees, there would probably be many actual, non cosmetic improvements to security.
Watched them cut down a row of trees, between a high speed street and a sensitive area the other day. Really nothing better than a tree, to slow down a truck bomb or set off an RPG. Wonder who´s bright idea that was.

[BruteXJ]

A few years ago I traveled around alot, field service, carried a techtronix portable O scope. Was going thru atlanta security after doing a local service call and when they asked me 'whats that' with me replying 'oscilloscope' several times I finally just em it was a tri-corder and they let me through...'beam me up scotty'.... Never even gave my used ignitor that I used for a keychain a second look... Ignitor is used to light fuse or detonate other initiators, looks like a short fat cigar, OD Green with a pull ring on one end and a shotgun primer on the other, fuse goes in the end by the primer, pull the ring back and a spring loaded firing pin slips loose and pops the primer...

I've seen the cause of this problem, and the least of the possible consequences in action. TSA agents are given a vague description of what could constitute an IED, or a "combined use" weapon (ie items combined to make a weapon). A few bad examples are given to the supervisors, who relate them poorly to the agents. I argued for 20 minutes with one of their supervisors (to no avail) because he had turned away one of my passengers (who worked for a machine parts company) because he was travelling with a box of springs and bearings.

One day when I wandered over to the checkpoint to speak with a friend of mine working the X-ray, I glanced up at the monitor and must have gasped as I took a step back. The screen clearly showed the image of an Uzi inside a woman's large handbag. He laughed and informed me that the antenna on top of the X-ray is how their bosses, or their computers, randomly superimpose images of "prohibited items" on the actual images of people's luggage being screened. They press a special button when they spot one of these "test" items. If they're correct, the false image goes away.

All of it is in reality a farce, but it keeps the ignorant happy. No one would actually try to sneak an Uzi through the airport, and no metal detector would pick up on a razor-sharp ceramic knife. I place the majority of my trust in explosive detection, and wish it were more widely used on hand-carried luggage.

[8Mud]

All of it is in reality a farce, but it keeps the ignorant happy. No one would actually try to sneak an Uzi through the airport, and no metal detector would pick up on a razor-sharp ceramic knife. I place the majority of my trust in explosive detection, and wish it were more widely used on hand-carried luggage.
One of the prime ingrediants for C-4, is used for everything from the plastic(moisture resistant) coatings on paper, to sneaker soles.
IMO the only real deterant is overwhelming retaliation. Don´t really think they are gonna run out of bombs, but we can sure try and make bombers an endangered species.

[BruteXJ]

Uhm, yes....that would be the "plastic" part.

Although I am by no means impressed by the explosives-detection equipment of the TSA, it is slightly more sophisticated than that.

[8Mud]

Uhm, yes....that would be the "plastic" part.
If I understood my reaseach correctly (I´m not a chemist), RDX or MDX or Cyclonate (sp?) is used in many industrial applications (treating paper products and as plasticizer for rubber substitutes), as well as propellant for cannon rounds and an explosive. If they developed a machine to test for it, it would probably, start the bells ringing, everytime someone with a Mc Donalds paper cup, or Reeboks, walked past the machine.

[8Mud]

.... Never even gave my used ignitor that I used for a keychain a second look... Ignitor is used to light fuse or detonate other initiators, looks like a short fat cigar, OD Green with a pull ring on one end and a shotgun primer on the other, fuse goes in the end by the primer, pull the ring back and a spring loaded firing pin slips loose and pops the primer...

I´m not gonna go into specifics, don´t want to let the bag out of the cat. But the pieces and the chemsitry are really old. It all starts with Nitre, through mercury fulminate to, to the newer plastics. Many of the same molecules that set off the machine, are found as yellow stains in your underwear. You´d about have to do a lobotomy on everyone who didn´t sleep through there chemistry class, to stop explosives from getting on an airplane.

[5-90]

That's why I have trouble with so-called "security" - they just don't know enough to do the job properly. Granted, I'd not be worried about an obviously spent M1 pull fuze (got another one? I lost the one I had a few years back...) but it seems that some general education is in order for these yoyos to understand most of what they're seeing.

The whole deal with GEN Joe Foss, USMC (ret)(dec) still gets me going - I understand the idea of camouflaging a weapon for discreet carry or use, but a medal? Even if you don't recognise it as the MoH, you should still realise that it's SOME sort of military decoration - besides, anyone who's seen "Forrest Gump" has a pretty good idea when the MoH looks like. In all honesty, if I'd been there, I'd probably have carried his bags right onto the AC for him!

These people are just a "show and tell" sort of security that doesn't get anything done. Israel allows their pilots to carry and (probably, it's been a while) don't harrass their passengers, and El Al has had precisely ZERO hijackings in the entire time they've operated.

Besides, if the government were truly concerned for the safety of her citizens, we'd all be allowed to deal with threats on our own, and with the means of our choosing.

As far as airline carry, if I'm reading someone else's post correctly, sabot rounds are precisely what you DON'T want for shooting inside an AC. The Glaser Safety Slug, however, was designed with precisely that arena in mind. What's the difference?

A "sabot" - literally, "shoe" (from French, as I recall) is a sort of "shim" that allows one to load a bullet into a round for a calibre larger than the bullet itself - for instance, a .224 into a .308. These got their name from originally being made out of wood, reminiscent of Dutch "klompen" (literally, "wooden shoe.") Sabot are used as a means of launching a small projectile at greater velocity, or without deformation.

A Glaser Safety Slug is a plastic capsule with a gilding metal jacket, and the capsule is filled with a light oil carrier and either #6 or #12 birdshot. It will disintegrate on pretty much anything it hits, and is sudden death on soft tissues. It is highly unlikely that it will penetrate with a glancing hit on drywall (angle of incidence 20* from normal or more) and something like 85% likely to NOT penetrate metal skins. It won't do much against soft armour, but that's what the "Mozambique Drill" is for (two rapid shots to centre mass, aimed shot to the head as required.)

However, I do think that anyone who intends to carry onboard an aircraft had damn well better be able to shoot a minimum of 100-5X on the line, and at least 80-0X when stressed or tired. A course in "shoot/don't shoot" targets is also a spanking good idea - anytime you might be somewhere crowded, you'd better be able to identify your target, and do it quickly. Apart from that, I think anyone who is willing to develop the necessary skill should be allowed to carry on AC, which allows the pilots to concentrate on maintaining control of the AC.

It seems to me that everytime they revamp their "security," I end up feeling less secure. Perhaps I should start a colony offworld...

5-90

A few years ago I traveled around alot, field service, carried a techtronix portable O scope. Was going thru atlanta security after doing a local service call and when they asked me 'whats that' with me replying 'oscilloscope' several times I finally just em it was a tri-corder and they let me through...'beam me up scotty'.... Never even gave my used ignitor that I used for a keychain a second look... Ignitor is used to light fuse or detonate other initiators, looks like a short fat cigar, OD Green with a pull ring on one end and a shotgun primer on the other, fuse goes in the end by the primer, pull the ring back and a spring loaded firing pin slips loose and pops the primer...

[OT]

Here, have a buck :D Thing is, there's overblown security and then there's overblown security. Do we have one single shred of evidence (no matter how tenuous) to show that the TSA are at all effective in preventing terrorism?
No, because you're still getting a hand rammed up your a**.
Absolutely there's evidence. Notice any hijackings or explosions in midair or planes flying into buildings?
The question should be, is there any evidence that shows it's not working?

Your ball.

[Boatwrench]

In 1916, in response to the sinking of the HMS Titantic, the US Coast Guard started the International Ice Patrol to track icebergs in the north western Atlantic. This responsibility continues to this very day, using not only ships but aircraft and radio transponders & sono bouys. A ship hasn't sunk from striking an iceberg since. See it works...just like the TSAs security has prevented planes from being hi-jacked.

If I was more computer saavy, I would post a photo of the MOH, yes in a very preverted way it could be used as a weapon of opportunity, but so could my seat cushion and I still have that on the flight.


I do agree with the assessment made early that security is just to make a show and the folks riding the desks get upset when a grassroots, ground floor suggestion is made.

Tom