How to make my rear flex more and my front less??(pics)

[Safari Ary]

Hey guys, I'm having a problem that Farmermatt kinda put into words for me a while back. My front suspension seems to do all of the work on my Jeep, and my rear suspension determines what angle the Jeep sits at. What I'd like is for them to flex equally. My rear really doesn't flex much unless the front is already completely maxed out(regardless of whether I'm on a ramp or crossing a ditch,i.e. whether the weight is pushed onto the rear of the jeep or not). I was considering looking into the anti-rock, but I think that would just limit my front travel and not help my rear travel at all. BTW, here are my relevant specs....

Rusty's 4.5" coils
Rusty's 4.5" leafs
RE adj upper/lower CAs with JJs
1" pro-comp shackles
ARB front bumper
homemade HEAVY rear bumper

Any helpful tips would be great

Here are some comparison pics...

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/arebrahi/Jeep%20pictures/rear%20flex.jpg
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/arebrahi/Jeep%20pictures/front%20flex.jpg
In those pics the front suspension is almost fully compressed on the passenger side, and the front isn't too far from fully drooped. However, the rear suspension is just beginning to do it's job. Thanks

Ary

P.S. I don't have front or rear swaybars hooked up(never had a rear swaybar to begin with)

[ChuckD]

Any brake lines/cable binding the rear, or it is usually your rear shocks. Did you change the mount on the rear axle?

[Safari Ary]

oops, shoulda mentioned that I've got the RE stainless lines, so no bind there. Also the shocks are new Bilstein 5100s. However, I flexed it up without shocks, and the problem was still there.

I've been contemplating the rear shock mount shortening + shock hoop route just for clearance purposes anyway.

Ary

[xj92]

I can't see the pics, but on mine I have Rancho RS-9000's, and if I had the front and back on different settings, they one would flex and let the other determine the angle. I was able to adjust the control by setting them equal, but even if that didn't work for you, you could stiffen up your front more and soften up the rear so that the rear will be able to compress easier than the front or at least even it out.

[TOZOVR]

Well just run some Bumpstops up front...as far as the rear? HMMMmmm I dunno...


That's the hard part.

[Safari Ary]

Pics died for a second there for some reason, they should be working again. As for the shocks, mine aren't adjustable.

As far as stiffening my front and softening my rear, that's what I'm asking, how do I do that?? I don't really wanna swap springs again, but if that's the only way, I guess I could. I figured I already had the softest leafs on the market, being Rusty's and all.

[steveVA]

i dont know if this is true but I heard that the stock shackles can sometimes bind on the frame in the back,,

[ChuckD]

Lately I've been hearing that Rusty's rear are stiffer and give a lot more height than advertised. Many have pulled out a leaf to soften it out, but then you may loose lift. How long have you had the springs? If not long put some weight in the back for awhile to break them in. My RE 1462 flexed ok when I first got them and now the flex really well and no sag.

[ChuckD]

Originally posted by steveVA
i dont know if this is true but I heard that the stock shackles can sometimes bind on the frame in the back,,

Good Point!

[Safari Ary]

Well, I've had them for about 4-6 months and they're well broken in. In fact, they're beginning to take on a "w" shape.

As for the shackles, I'm running a 1" pro-comp shackle and it sits just slightly angled back past vertical. Could that be my problem?? Thanks guys

Ary

P.S. With the springs and shackle I think I'm getting 5" of lift, but I don't have any real way to measure since I no longer have flares.

[ChuckD]

Measure from the top of the perch to the top of the bumpstop or frame. I feel that is a more accurate measurement anyway. The shackle should be fine then. Could you really try to flex it out again. I think your just not pushing it enough, maybe back into the curb or whatever you find to flex on. :)

[basalt51]

Maybe i missed it in there somwhere. - DELETED - Hehe - i found what I missed - so I guess it isn't the rear sway bar :)

[Bender]

This has been a problem for every lifted XJ. If you want to see a really bad setup take a look at the pics of Rusty's longarm XJ. That thing has 99% of it's travel in the front suspension.

In stock form the XJ is actually quite balanced front to rear as far as the suspension flex is concerned. The problem arises when the truck is lifted. To lift the front all you need to do is make a coil longer... technically you don't even have to change the spring rate although most do as the stock rate is overly soft and increasing the spring rate allows the lift springs to have a shorter unsprung weight as well as handle heavier loads.

The rear leafs however gain their lift from extra arching and for some reason most aftermarket companies seem to retain the stock rear leaf length giving a less then ideal shackle angle for good "flex". Generally in my opinion the best setup is when the rear shackle is pointing rearward 25 to 30 degrees. Unfortunately this can't really be accomplished without modifying the frame mount of the shackle or getting slightly longer leafs. Going with a longer shackle will actually make the angle worse but it also increases the available travel of the leaf.

So, if you don't want to change your stock mount there is only a ocuple things to do...

Make sure you leafs are clean in between. Maybe add some teflon strips to aid in the "slipping" between leafs.

Be sure if there are retaining clips on your leafs that they aren't sandwiching the leafs together. i.e. they should retain them side to side but not hold them against eachother. If they are bend the retaining tabs up a bit or if there's a bolt like the RE springs remove the bolt so the springs can seperate.

Make sure you're running a shackle that is a little longer than stock to maximize the available travel. For a 4.5" lift a 2" longer (1" lift) shackle is plenty.

I also like to loosen off my shackle bolts when going wheeling to help them move easier. Just be sure to tighten them back up for road driving as you don't want one to work loose and fall out.

But in the end leafs have to be loved before they'll work for you. You need to get out and flex those suckers, work them in, load them up, read to them, kiss them goodnight, talk dirty to them.... whatever works. Only when they are ready will they start "loving" you back.
:D

[Bender]

Here is an example...

RE 4.5" lift packs fairly new...
http://community.webshots.com/photo/64836838/64837742TkSWYR
Notice how hard and unloving they are... they didn't start working for me until I had a couple years to warm them up a bit.

The same springs two years and many wheeling trips later

http://community.webshots.com/photo/71396094/71396783VzIRiL
http://community.webshots.com/photo/71396094/71396792ZJiRWA
http://community.webshots.com/photo/71396094/71396797QdDhRy

Now they are showing me some love :D

[Ed A. Stevens]

I have to agree with Bender, the real leafs need to be broken-in to flex (lubed, loved, and let lose on a regular basis to love you back). This provides a softening (lowering) of the spring rate.

I have to add that the balance between front and rear spring rates has a significant impact to the combined flex.

Many XJ front lift coils add length for the lift height (or a spacer) and do not increase the spring rate. Combined with a rear leaf pack that must increase the spring rate to provide the lift height, the bias is to flex the front axle before gaining any flex at the rear axle.

Combine this with the difference in roll axis height (at the lifted front and rear axles) and you learn the front axle simply has more leverage to work the CG against a lighter spring configuration.

The popular ZJ-V8 lift springs do increase the spring rate, compensating some for the increased leverage provided by the lifted CG. This is why many owners feel an improvement in overall flex when they install the heaver springs (even if the lift height increase is not that dramatic).

A car control symptom that comes up at high speed in rough terrain is the rear axle bucking in a straght line. Run a series of whoops and find the rear tires avoid touching the ground (difficult to control and difficult to get the power to the ground). You can steer, but you cannot apply enough power to the ground achieve the speed needed to match the bounce with the terrain (find that rythym). This reflects too much rear spring rate, compared to the front spring rate.

Many tuners will dial the front shocks hard to add velocity dampening (thinking it provides an artifical spring rate change), although in my experience it just makes the front suspension stiff. The rear axle still bucks, but now the entire car is bucking (no rear traction, and now no front directional control). You can achieve some sense of rythym, but it's at a lower speed than what you could be doing. You also risk trouble if you find yourself sideways between whoops (the landing can trip the locked suspension, promoting a tank-slapper style rollover).

Fitting a softer rear spring (leaf pack) is not always easy (not if you want rear lift height). The compromise between rear lift and spring rate is one reason why typical competition off-road trucks have that tail dragger look (a leveling spring would unbalance the chassis at speed).

The other alternative is to fit a stiffer front spring, resulting in increased front ride height (again, agumenting that tail dragger look).

Many of the coilover tuners stack the primary and tender springs to locate the stiff spring rate transition at or slightly above the front static ride height (slightly into the extension travel range). This assures the working spring rate is stiff when the front end reacts to the terrain, even when the rear suspension is under throttle induced jacking. They tune the rear coilovers in a opposite fashion, with the stiff rate transition located deep into the compression travel range. This lets the rear end dance with minimal force on the springs (and little reaction force to buck wildly) when all the tractive force is jacking into the rear suspension links.

The short answer is to gain rear flex is get softer rear springs (love-um till they love back), or add stiffer front springs. As long as you still dust off the full travel of the front shock shaft wheeling, the front spring rate is not too stiff for the dynamic loads of your wheeling style (even if the stiffer rate limits the static ramp score).

XJ owners used to run away from stiff front coils, but now they welcome them. It's just part of the tuning evolution.

[bgcntry72]

Just buy OME...........solved.
Ya might need some smaller tires.

[SV1CEC]

I am running almost the same setup as you are, Rusty's 4.5, which netted me almost 6" front and rear (8 months on the XJ).

I had similar problems with yours, because our friend Rusty is making the springs too short for the application. When mine were first installed, they were standing with the shackle all the way forward touching the front of their mounts, which in turn caused the front bushing to give and the front of the springs to rub badly on the inside of the front mounts.

Rusty was ... generous enough to send me a set of .75" extended shackles and new bushings. Since the bloody springs were too stiff to start with, when I had them out to replace the shackles and bushings, I also removed the lower leaf. That gave me almost the same height as I had before (close to 6" front and rear) maybe I lost one centimeter at the rear, which made the truck more level (which I like). However, the leaf pack now seems to be getting a W shape. I am not sure how good is this, but given the quality of Rusty's things, I guess it cannot be good.

I assume I have to get some RE spring packs to solve the problem.

If you are willing to experiment a bit (I can't do that since I live in Athens Greece and shipping charges are too high), I would suggest you get some longer shackles at the rear and some spacers for your front. You will get some more flex (I think).

Rgds

[Safari Ary]

wow, what a lot of great advise.

I had 2" shackles before and admitedly(sp?) the Jeep flexed more evenly/better, but it was much more unstable, and still wasn't nearly as flexy as the front. This is my second set of Rusty's springs, the first set I got from Emily(XJGrl) and they broke(bottom leaf broke in half) so Rusty warrantied them for me. Those flexed amazingly well, too well in fact(obviously 'cause they broke). They also had the W shape, so I'm thinking the W shape is a bad thing. A friend of mine suggested converting to a YJ shackle and getting some flatter leaves. The YJ shackle conversion involves capping off the stock shackle box and adding a piece with a bushing. Brent Orton did this and it seems to work well. I'm considering it, I just don't know if I wanna get into stuff that intricate and so structurally important. We'll see, keep the ideas coming.

Ary

[EricsXJ]

Ary - Bender and Ed Stevens hit this right on.

I have the exact same problem only I am running the RE1462 leaf pack. At first it was incredibly stiff and hardly flexed. Now after a year and a half it has loosened up and flexes more but my problem is I am running the stock shackle. Part of my next major upgrade to the jeep involves lifting it another 1" or 1.5" and with an extended shackle in the rear it will improve the rear flex tremendously. On occasion I wheel with a guy in a lifted ZJ and the way he has balanced flex front to rear makes me sick! Of course thats because he has rear coils.

I know I'm echoing what the other guys have said, but the flex will improve as the leafs are softened up and then maybe you could also increase the length of the shackle.

[mgt]

I had the same problem with nation's leaf springs, I just had to let them break in (about a year), put some waight in the back and go flex them

[SV1CEC]

Although I haven't been wheeling much lately (only two excursions in about 8 months, mostly on flat, dirt roads) Rusty's springs haven't sag much. Even today, my shackles are angled forward. This, and the fact that they gave me a total of 6" (versus 4.5 advertised) are the only good things about these springs. Of course, the fact that they haven't sag much means that they do not flex much as well.

Another side-effect of my leaf problems, was the fact that I got to meet a shop, which can do whatever you want with springs. These guys are really knowledgeable on this subject, so maybe I'll have them build a set for me, according to my specs. Sorry guys, it wouldn't do you any good if I introduce them to you, too far away from most of you to take advantage of them.

[ChuckD]

Here's mine with Re1462's and about 8-9 months old.

http://home.attbi.com/~cdutke/flex/DSCF0007.JPG

http://home.attbi.com/~cdutke/flex/DSCF0008.JPG

I know my rear will have more travel once I relocate the rear shock mounts, right now I'm still running the Heckethorn 2-4" lift JCW specials.

My advice, keep Rusty's leafs, weigh down the back a lot and really get out there and excerise them. I think Rusty changed them because everyone said his leafs were too soft.

more pics:

http://home.attbi.com/~cdutke/flex/flex.htm

[juicexj24]

After reading every bodies stuff, I just say I'm on the side that thinks Rusty's stuff is cheap and should be made better. I do have some Rusty's Stuff, adjustable control arms, HD Trac Bar and Brace. I have heard many stories about the coils and springs. Let me say this. Rubicon Express is the way to go. I have run there coils and leafs for over 4 years, I have the 4.5" Rear Springs, they will sit about at 6.25". I have the ORGS Shackle, with is a boomerang type. This thing flexes like crazy, rides great. I did drive around for about a month with something like 10bags of sand in the back. This didn't cause the springs to sag, just to soften them up. They have been on over two years. RE1462 is the part number. The coils I'm running are the 4.5" (RE1310), Isolator (RE1340), and 1.75" Spacer (RE1334). The coils are over 4 years old. I have only had the spacers on for the sametime as the leaf springs. Now only am I going to go with the GC coils for the 5.5" RE1345, to take up the weight of the new winch bumper.
So go with Rubicon, dump Rusty's. The shackle should never be pointing that far forward, the fix isn't new bushings, and longer shackles, its to replace the whole springs. My CJ did that with the driver side rear shackle. Sucked for ride and didn't make it to safe.

[jalehman]

I had to go to Skyjacker 6" front coils and remove a leaf from the rear of my Rustys STS springs for equal flex. I am running long arms though. I don't think that you could get by with the stiffer skyjacker coils with short arms, though. It would probably collapse your spine from the rough ride. It now rides better with the long arms and the stiffer springs than it did with the old arms and super soft Tomken coils.

I think that is the major reason a lot lift kits come with such soft coils. When lifted with short arms at steep angles, the coils HAVE to be soft or the ride would be completely unbearable. When traveling at slow speeds the bad suspension geometry isn't as masked though and all the flex will come from the front axle due to the soft coils.

[SV1CEC]

Originally posted by juicexj24
So go with Rubicon, dump Rusty's. The shackle should never be pointing that far forward, the fix isn't new bushings, and longer shackles, its to replace the whole springs.

I second that. Have a look at the attached picture:

http://www.m1911.org/images/Cherokee/shackles.jpg

This is how my shackles were 4 months after the installation of the lift. First days, they were actually touching the front of their mounts.

Since I couldn't justify new springs (double the list price to get an idea of how much they cost me to have them shipped here), what I did, was to remove the lower leaf. That made the springs softer and allowed them to stretch a bit more. Here is how my shackles look today:
http://www.m1911.org/images/Cherokee/newshackles.jpg

Not ideal but better. Some day, RE will get an order for several things. Until then I have to live with this POS.

Rgds

[basalt51]

I've had my RE1462 springs only a few month's and I think they flex great. Not like the front coils, but I don't expect them to.

Some of the flex examples shown are a little deceiving in that the rear won't flex as much if the front can take care of it - like backing up the ramp. With the front axle level, the body can rotate and the front axle does all the work. Now stuff a big boulder under the opposite front wheel and you'll get all the flex and stuff you could want from both sides.

I'ld like to see Bender's rig back up a ramp now, that would give a better compairison of how the rear flexes.

[jalehman]

I wasn't happy at all with my Rustys STS rear springs at first either. They were advertised as a 6" lift. When I put them on my shackle was maxed out in the forward position also. I got an honest 9" of lift! I wanted 6". Thank god I had sye. I drove it around for about a week thinking that they would settle in. No change. The ride felt like I had bolted the rear axle directly to the frame it was so bad! Looking at my rear shock I could tell that the shocks were only compressing about .5" in a whole week of driving! I removed two leaves from each pack and it sagged to about 7" of lift. I drove it for a couple of months. Rode really nice. It sagged to about 5.5" of lift so I put the short leaf back in to get rid of the W formation. They have been holding at about 6.5" now for the last year and the shackle is perfectly vertical. I think I will be able to tolerate them now that they are well broken in. They ride really nice now but definitely not worth the hassle. I would consider these springs ONLY if you carry over 400#s of gear, otherwise they are way too stiff.

[ZPD]

What about those revolver shackles? They seemed to be a J.U. fad of some sort a while back with some drawbacks. Seems like they might ride a bit loose on the street but if it is mostly a trail rig then it would definately increase your droop. Doesn't help much in your compression though. Anyone have any real world experience with these?

[Bender]

Basalt51,

I was wonder who would mention that fact that I backed up the ramp. True, it isn't the best comparison as the rear doesn't have the weight on it to force it to flex when I'm in that position. Unfortunately I don't have any pics on my webshots account of my jeep back then on a ramp normally. The rear did flex a little more going up forwards but still not near as much as I would have liked or even close to how it flexes now.

After reading several posts in this thread regarding the rear shacke actually poining forward in my opinion that is SEVERE design flaw. At static height the shackle should NEVER be pointing foward. This puts so much added stress on the rear supension and doesn't allow for droop at all. Anyone who bought aftermarket springs that fit in this manner should do their best to return them.

As for the "revolver" style shackles I'd say they are more of a gimmik than anything. Sure they give you some nice ramp scores but they also tend to increase axle wrap and do very little for off-road performance. I ran a homemade style scissor shackle for about 6 months in my quest for flex but eventually took it off.

Ary,
You asked about "boxing" in the rear shackle mount and using YJ shackles. You can also do this with your stock XJ shackles by welding on tabs instead of a bushing.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/64838123/70343261CHaGmc
http://community.webshots.com/photo/64838123/70343280wcjHkg

Just for the record... I copied this design from someone on NAXJA but I don't remember who so I can't give them the due credit at this time.

In those pics I have two mounting holes on each side. The forward one I use for daily driving as it softens up the ride a bit and the rearward hole I use when off-roading as it gives me a little more load carry capacity and I carry about 350# of tools, shafts, recovery stuff, fluids etc in the back.

[ChuckD]

Nice Mod Bender, I know GaryE, Crash, and Borton have done close to the same mod.

[giranger]

I would not go with revolver shackles, had them and got rid of them. Also heard many stories about them, they give nice flex but at a price. If its your daily driver and you have to hit your brakes hard they will open up and your ass end will come up in the air(not safe). This happened to a fellow jeeper here, he was going down a steep hill and they opened up on him, almost rolled him end over end.

[ZPD]

Originally posted by giranger
I would not go with revolver shackles, had them and got rid of them. Also heard many stories about them, they give nice flex but at a price. If its your daily driver and you have to hit your brakes hard they will open up and your ass end will come up in the air(not safe). This happened to a fellow jeeper here, he was going down a steep hill and they opened up on him, almost rolled him end over end.

That is what it was. I remember now. If I had the energy then I probably would have done some more thinking on that one. ;)
I guess probably the best flexy set up would be a using revolvers with orbital eyes and those axle mount pivoting things that the bronco guys use. j/k :eek: :scared:
Of course that would only work with a chrome plated diff cover and 4 sets of shocks :roflmao:

[Goatman]

Originally posted by Ary'01XJ
Well, I've had them for about 4-6 months and they're well broken in. In fact, they're beginning to take on a "w" shape.

As for the shackles, I'm running a 1" pro-comp shackle and it sits just slightly angled back past vertical. Could that be my problem?? Thanks guys

Ary

P.S. With the springs and shackle I think I'm getting 5" of lift, but I don't have any real way to measure since I no longer have flares.

Ed and some of the guys have made some very good comments, this is an informative thread. Overall, it is pretty simple. You need to loosen up the rear and stiffen up the front. We've found that the ZJ front coils just work the best, and they have the stiffest spring rate available.

In the rear, make sure the shackle bolts can be turned with an end wrench, snug but not tight. They can be run like this all the time, not just on the trail, as there's no force to make them loosen up. Mine have been that way for years. The rear spring shackle has to be longer than stock, to allow the spring to travel freely. The leaf spring has to be free from friction, so make sure it's clean between the leaves, or take the spring apart and put full length liners between each leaf. I've also been running full length liners for many years, and it helps. The loose bolts and the liners mean less friction, but the spring rate and carrying capacity remain the same. Also, be sure the spring clamps are loose, not pressing the leaves together to create friction. You can also open the clamps up, or remove the bolt, depending on what type of clamps you have. Be careful when running open clamps that you don't flare the leaves too much under full droop, it can cause a problem when climbing, and reduce stability similar to what happens with a Revolver shackle. I ran open clamps for a long time, but when I put the Tera60 in the rear it is so heavy that it flared my springs way too much when drooped and going up hill, so I put the clamps back on the rear part of the springs.

Regarding rear spring rates, it's better to have a flatter spring if you want the rear to flex. I use a couple inches of block and a flatter spring to get the flex and lift I want, then a traction bar to eliminate spring wrap. The flatter spring both compresses and droops better than a spring with more arch, and the shackle is moving forward rather than backward through most of the springs action (it's already back when sitting still with a flat spring).

Here's a few pics of mine to see what's possible. I hope my friend doesn't mind me using him for comparison....this was taken two weeks ago on BOTW.

http://www.fototime.com/1600B4AEA5AD92D/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/BDE8F8D9CF28BC3/standard.jpg

Close to the same line, but more balance between the front and the rear. Here's another:

http://www.fototime.com/83F2C47D36D386B/standard.jpg

Here's a couple from a few years ago:

http://www.fototime.com/F357B3CEB75AC2D/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/D3319C2C4983094/standard.jpg

Keep working with it, you can get it balanced.

[XJoachim]

Personally i think the good thing about the rear not flexing this much is that it gives a bit of stability. Hard to say for me what is better off road but i like the added stability while the front cycles through the available travel. I already have the ZJ coils in front and they flex like crazy, wish they had coils with a higher spring rate.

These are actual shots front
http://www.countyline.de/images/frontflex.jpg

and rear
http://www.countyline.de/images/rearflex.jpg

Tell me what you think, those are 38.5 SX's

[RobertF]

Looks like a D35 in the back, on 38's?

[ArcticXJ]

Disconnect your rear swaybar. :viking:

[TheFortuneAteMySon]

*Thump*
Bring out yer dead!
*Thump*

[Ludakris]

I have to check out the "boomerang" shackles... also, would an MJ shackle help out? I have an S-10/xj pack, and it is rediculously stiff...but I am cheap... I need to replace my rear shackles as the sleeves are rusted to the bolts, just havent figured how i am going to get them out..
My neighbor had an idea and I dont know if it would work.. been trying to work it out in my head.. He mentioned that the reason the packs are so stiff is that they are like a sheet of plywood because of the stacked leafs. His idea was to add short thin metal sheets to the middle of the pack. I would assume like 1/8 or so and about 6-10" long. These would be placed between every leaf.. Would this work or is it just crazy? I gotta check out the YJ idea when I get home.. darn work firewall...

[JeepFreak21]

Looks like a D35 in the back, on 38's?

If you're talking about XJoachim, I believe he's running a D70.
Billy

[Roll-over]

Happy Birthday! This thread turns TWO!
:party:

[Ludakris]

Happy Birthday! This thread turns TWO!
:party:


ahh crap.. I got sucked in.. didnt even notice..

[theksmith]

When it come to breaking in rear springs, I know adding weight to the rear for a while and going out flexin will loosen them up... what about keeping the front swaybar connected while you do that, so it forces the rear to do all the work? Or would that just wear out your front swaybar?

[JEONLYEP]

Happy Birthday! This thread turns TWO!
:party:
My bet is......


















That the problem has been taken care of sometime in the last two years! :D

Daryl

[theksmith]

My bet is......

That the problem has been taken care of sometime in the last two years! :D

Daryl

For that guy... but what about the rest of us? I just thought it was better to ask here than starting a whole new thread.

[JEONLYEP]

My bet is......




That the problem has been taken care of sometime in the last two years! :D

Daryl
For that guy... but what about the rest of us? I just thought it was better to ask here than starting a whole new thread.


Okay, But I tend to dismiss old threads that have been drug up from the past. If the answer to your question wasn't in the old thread, I would think that a new thread would have a better chance to answer a question.

But that might just be me.

Daryl

[gearwhine]

well since this has been brought back lately, I'll give my thoughts.

I'm pretty much with goatman all the way on this.

I run RE1462's. I removed the smallest leaf, and added the largest nonbushing leaf from an XJ upcountry pack. This kept me the same ride height, a little softer, and little less capacity. I'm fine with less load though.

I went for a little longer shackle, YJ style, and moved it out of the box (Crash has/had the same type of set-up and I think Capt. nemo has it done as well)...this will give free swing, and not have to worry about it hitting the box...that helps out a lot, and is not too much work.

as goatmand said and did...traction bar...with flat and/or softer springs, you'll just destroy what you have done. I have also done the same. If it's made correctly, it wil not limit flex, so don't listen to dummies that say that.

Xjoachim...some do seem to like the stiffer rear, but being in a situation where you're coming down a ledge off camber, the front is taking all the flex being already off the ledge, and the rear stays stiff...that's when you're going over, it has scared me many many times because of this, and that's why I worked so much with the rear end. I have only wheeled with my set-up a few times so far and I am already MUCH happier with it. To me a balanced set-up is much more stable that a stiff set-up.

kristoffers....it would hurt to do that a few times...I wouldn't go wheeling with the front sway bar on, but take it around with it on and max out the rear a few times...both sides. just repeat a few times...like ed said..give them some lovin'.

I remember a few years ago with my stock RE leaves, I had to pick up patio brick...which came out to a few hundred pounds, and almsot bottomed out my rear just sitting there. I had no ill effects and it definitely softened them up noticably after only a 20 minute drive home. So load up until your rear end drops and inch or so and just forget they're in there for a while.

_nicko_