Diesel XJ's???

[pa_muddin_xj]

I've heard of them before, but have never seen one in the United States. Are there any here. It seems to me like diesel would be cheaper right now.

[Eagle]

In the AMC years they offered a diesel. I think it was a 2.0L or 2.1L. Can't remember if it was a Renault engine or an Italian engine. Not many were sold, so it's no surprise that you haven't seen them around. And because so few were sold, parts are outrageously expensive, not to mention hard to find.

[Chancer]

Loads of diesel XJs over here, all the VM 2.5 TD's under the bonnet (Rovers, Isuzu thingies/ Vauxhall Frontera). They have a tendency to go at the head quite a lot though, which is in 4 separate pieces, which makes them a little on the expensive side to replace. You don't get much better fuel consumption than a 4 litre, but they have massive engine braking in 1st (they tend to be manuals). My personal preference: get a HO and convert to LPG. Either you lose boot space or underbody clearance, but you'll recoup the costs of the conversion pretty quickly if you keep it for a few years.

[pa_muddin_xj]

Thanks Chancer, by the way do you know any websites that have a kit for that?

[Chancer]

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=47460

Apart from that, try trawling some of the UK-based forums: lots of discussions on the merit of the various systems available. Otherwise, check out the approved installers list at lpga.co.uk, if there is one - somebody on there should be able to authoritatively talk you through it.

[JEEPZZ]

I've heard of them before, but have never seen one in the United States. Are there any here. It seems to me like diesel would be cheaper right now.
87 was the last year for the turbo diesel here in the US.

[Woodstock]

I've got a Diesel XJ (VM 2,5 TurboDiesel 98). And it's true what Chancer said that there are a lot of gone heads. I haven't one till now (125.000 km) but 2 of my friends had one (even with the newer version - after 97).
After 97 they improved the engine and they added a Intercooler (which is mounted behind the bumper where it isn't getting air to do it's job :mad: ), a oil to water cooler, a water collecting tube at the heads (to get air bubbles out of the engine if it's running hot) and some guys think a new water pump.
So I've heard a lot of problems with the before 97 models and only some with the after 97 models.

I added an additional oilcooler and made some wholes in the bumper for the intercooler.
The fuel consumption is about 10L per 100km which is much lesser than the 4.0 engines (12-15 L per 100 km).
Here in europe the fuel is much more expensive than in the states. Gas costs about € 1,- per Liter (about double of your costs). Diesel costs € 0,8 per Liter. Also we have to pay taxes depending on the horsepower of the cars. And the 4.0 are much more expensive than the Diesel with 115 hp. So all this makes the Diesel in europe much more reliable (even with the head problems).

Also there were the 2.1 Renault Diesel (they are not built anymore). But they have to less hp for the "heavy" XJ. But this engine was much more stable.

greetings from Austria :wave:
Rainer

[marcoleo]

I can confirm chancer & woodstock opinion, stay on HO.
here in Italy is plenty of diesel XJ, difficult to find HO!
There are two version 2.1td by renault & 2.5td by VM.
The renault is much stable, average life 300000Km but the power is 85hp and you have the maximum torque only around 2500rpm; the turbo strat to engage only at 1800rpm.
The VM, in this version, has a lot of problem, with the head and not only, (problems well know by the maker) it's very powerfull with a lot of torque, perfect for off road. (but keep a spare one in your garage)
My friend have swap it with 3litres version which is very good.

[PA Highlander]

Ok, can someone give me real world comparisons of the 2.1 diesel to a 2.5 as far as power and response goes? Fuel economy?

A friend of mine has an '86 Waggy he's parting out with the 2.1 Renault Turbo Diesel with some form of aftermarket Intercooler. The price is right and my 2.5 is leaking oil badly and underpowered (YJ - 2.5/AX5/NP231/4.10's/33's). I think the 2.1 TD would drop in place of the 2.5 but I'm not certain on spline count and bellhousing. I should have access to the trans from the 2.1 which I think is also a AX5.

Thanks!

[Woodstock]

Hi,

It's about 10 years ago that i drove the 2.1 Diesel ... but i felt it less powerfull ... i never drove an 2,5 gas engine ... now i have a 2,5 Diesel since about 2 years. the 2,5 Diesel ahs more torque and feels more powerful than the 2,5 gas engine..
the 2,1 is more stable than the 2,5 Diesel .. but there were still problems with the starter, turbo, cylinderhead-seal at the 2,1 that i drove. it wasn't mine (father of my ex-girl-friend) but they used it very rough (transporting stones and carrying a large trailer) ...

the consumption of the 2,5 diesel is about 10 Liter /100km .. idon't know the consumption of the 2,1 ..

i hope this could help you too :wave:

[casm]

the 2,1 is more stable than the 2,5 Diesel .. but there were still problems with the starter, turbo, cylinderhead-seal at the 2,1 that i drove.

One thing I'll add to this as a French car enthusiast living in the US: Renault parts are incredibly difficult to come by, and expensive when you do find them. It's actually easier in a lot of cases to find parts for Citroens (which haven't been sold here since 1974) than Renaults - and Renault only left the US market in 1988.

You might want to consider using a Mercedes turbo-diesel if you're serious about this, or finding a rolled Liberty CRD and doing an engine swap (the latter being what I've been looking into for a similar mod). You'll probably end up spending more on the conversion, but at least you'll have access to parts supplies in the long term.

Also do some research into the Winnebago LeSharo (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=winnebago+lesharo&btnG=Google+Search) if you do decide to go the Renault route. Many of them came with the 2.1TD, so RV suppliers may be able to help you better than Jeep dealers / parts specialists.

[diegom6]

Loads of diesel XJs over here, all the VM 2.5 TD's under the bonnet (Rovers, Isuzu thingies/ Vauxhall Frontera). They have a tendency to go at the head quite a lot though, which is in 4 separate pieces, which makes them a little on the expensive side to replace. You don't get much better fuel consumption than a 4 litre, but they have massive engine braking in 1st (they tend to be manuals). My personal preference: get a HO and convert to LPG. Either you lose boot space or underbody clearance, but you'll recoup the costs of the conversion pretty quickly if you keep it for a few years.


We got those XJ's ober here too, they suck in the way it's made the engine, wear out really fast, turbo problems and slow as a turttle!

Get the 4.0L, be free of troubles and conver it to LPG ( I had that system in my 4.0L before I strokering it and conver the jeep in a Race XJ)

[scoobyxj]

I've got a Diesel XJ (VM 2,5 TurboDiesel 98). And it's true what Chancer said that there are a lot of gone heads. I haven't one till now (125.000 km) but 2 of my friends had one (even with the newer version - after 97).
After 97 they improved the engine and they added a Intercooler (which is mounted behind the bumper where it isn't getting air to do it's job :mad: ), a oil to water cooler, a water collecting tube at the heads (to get air bubbles out of the engine if it's running hot) and some guys think a new water pump.
So I've heard a lot of problems with the before 97 models and only some with the after 97 models.

I added an additional oilcooler and made some wholes in the bumper for the intercooler.
The fuel consumption is about 10L per 100km which is much lesser than the 4.0 engines (12-15 L per 100 km).
Here in europe the fuel is much more expensive than in the states. Gas costs about € 1,- per Liter (about double of your costs). Diesel costs € 0,8 per Liter. Also we have to pay taxes depending on the horsepower of the cars. And the 4.0 are much more expensive than the Diesel with 115 hp. So all this makes the Diesel in europe much more reliable (even with the head problems).

Also there were the 2.1 Renault Diesel (they are not built anymore). But they have to less hp for the "heavy" XJ. But this engine was much more stable.

greetings from Austria :wave:
Rainer

How do they fugure that at the pump?

[casm]

How do they fugure that at the pump?

They don't. Each vehicle is essentially rated by the government for bhp (or steam horsepower, which I will *not* get into here given that it's bloody complicated), and annual taxation assigned accordingly based on whatever scale they've drawn up.

Equally arbitrary is the displacement equation that a lot of EU countries use to reckon taxation. This is how (http://www.oasis.gov.ie/utilities/redirect.php?url=http://www.dublincity.ie/Images/Motor%20Tax%20Rates_tcm35-8791.pdf) (.PDF format) we do it in Ireland - multiply the Euro numbers by 1.3 to get the dollar value. Now you know why most of Europe drives diesels.

Then there's the UK method, which is based on assumed CO output.

It's all a crock of sh*t. And if anyone in California tries to defend that bill that was put before the state legislature to introduce a UK-style system of taxation, I *will* be exercising my second amendment rights in their direction. Large automotive engines aren't the threat to us: China and India are, with their lack of pollution controls.

[75SV1]

The LPG isn't going to save you money here in the states. Maybe if you live in Texas or Alberta. Check the price of local propane and the road tax. I looked into it a few months back. It came to about $2.00. You might look into CNG. This might be an option if the state you live in has a bunch of filling stations for it. Mainly OK and CA. Some government Cherokees has a daul fuel setup for this. I bid on one on E-Bay, but didn't win. I figured it would save $200.00 for every 15K of miles.
Tom

[PA Highlander]

So it sounds as though the 2.1 TD isn't worth it even if it is dirt cheap? Considering gas is $2.049 and diesel $2.329 right now, it would also have to be a large increasing in fuel economy just to break even. <rant>Why is diesel more then gas? It's a less refined product - doesn't make sense to me!</rant> I might as well rebuild the 2.5L and swap to the Dana 44's and 5.13 gearing. A 4.0 would be ideal but not a very cheap option around here - engine/computer/trans/t-case would be well over $1000.

[Woodstock]

maybe it's more expensive because of the lesser usage in the states?

[casm]

So it sounds as though the 2.1 TD isn't worth it even if it is dirt cheap?

That's basically it. It's not so much that it's a bad engine, just a nightmare to support. It is *very* underpowered for moving an XJ along, btw. Seriously, look into a CRD swap - as a bonus, you'll have the benefit of an additional 20 years of diesel technology development and only need one source for parts.

Considering gas is $2.049 and diesel $2.329 right now, it would also have to be a large increasing in fuel economy just to break even.

Jeez, I wish we were at $2.04. Filled up last night at $2.37. One station in downtown LA has 87-octane set at $2.65 last I checked. This price gouging is bullsh*t.

<rant>Why is diesel more then gas? It's a less refined product - doesn't make sense to me!</rant>

Because the main purchasers of diesel are fleet vehicles (i.e., semis). The oil companies can charge more for it knowing that they'll pay it. Then there's the government, taxing it...

[PA Highlander]

That's basically it. It's not so much that it's a bad engine, just a nightmare to support. It is *very* underpowered for moving an XJ along, btw. Seriously, look into a CRD swap - as a bonus, you'll have the benefit of an additional 20 years of diesel technology development and only need one source for parts.

Jeez, I wish we were at $2.04. Filled up last night at $2.37. One station in downtown LA has 87-octane set at $2.65 last I checked. This price gouging is bullsh*t.

Because the main purchasers of diesel are fleet vehicles (i.e., semis). The oil companies can charge more for it knowing that they'll pay it. Then there's the government, taxing it...

Well my Jeep is a YJ which is a bit lighter than an XJ - but I don't think there is enough of a weight difference to matter. The CRD is very pricey right now so it more than likely is not an option for several years. Considering I bought the Jeep for $2000, it's hard to justify putting another $2000 in the engine right now.

He!! I think even $2.059 is price gouging (yep, it went up another penny since I made the first post 9 hours ago :mad: ). I don't know how you CA folks deal with all the bullsh!t out there.

Yea, the entire oil industry is a racket - they know you need it and will pay whatever the going rate is. I live in a very rural area (no public transportation) with a 25 mile one way commute to the office ... I have no choice but to pony up for fuel. I traded my F150 a few months ago for the PT Cruiser to get better commuter mileage. Of course it's been snowing so much the YJ has been running more than the PT. :wierd:

[wescam]

The new Diesel in the Liberty that should come to the states soon will probablly work it's way into the Wrangler line. I think that's good news for Jeep in general.

FWIW, I'd love to put that new VW Tourag (however you spell it) Turbo V10 Diesel in a Jeep. Not that I think it's easy or anything :P

[tsgtbob]

So I guess that nobody wants one? I gots one for parts, will be posting on the for sale forum soon

[diegom6]

the 2.8 CRD auto trnas in the Liberty is fast as hell, it can be compared in reactiona nd power overall with the 3.7L V6 IMO

[Woodstock]

but to swap the engine from a 4.0 to an 2,8CRD is not a plug and play swap ... there have to be changed the whole wires, "computers" and maybe even tranny, ......
and mybe it will not fit in the XJ ??

if it would be an easy swap it would be interesting for me ... but the next problem here in europe is that i will be hard to get the approval by the TÜV (it's a kind of state department like the ones who proof the cars in California) .

greetings from austria :wave:

[Fudd]

Ok, got a question my Dad just bought a '93 2.1 turbo diesel that had been imported here for to the states, from Canada I think. Its a Renault like the earlier US cherokees, would parts from an 84 2.1 bolt up on to the newer engine? Also what are some good European jeep forums, maybe y'all can help a yank out :D

[casm]

Its a Renault like the earlier US cherokees, would parts from an 84 2.1 bolt up on to the newer engine?

For the most part, I believe so. Note: you're dealing with a vehicle that was never sold in that configuration in the US in that year, so take it for what it's worth.

Also what are some good European jeep forums, maybe y'all can help a yank out :D

Honestly... You'll probably be better off looking for local (i.e., North American) sources for parts. That engine hasn't been in production in Europe in close to a decade IIRC, so you're facing similar issues with support - just that you're now trying to get it from an ocean and a continent away.

As mentioned before, your best bet is probably to look for Winnebago LeSharo (http://www.revolutionmotors.com/frenchrev/articles/le_sharo.html) forums - it was in production from 1983 to 1992, and was probably the only other widespread application for the Renault 2.1TD.

[Woodstock]

Ok, got a question my Dad just bought a '93 2.1 turbo diesel that had been imported here for to the states, from Canada I think. Its a Renault like the earlier US cherokees, would parts from an 84 2.1 bolt up on to the newer engine? Also what are some good European jeep forums, maybe y'all can help a yank out :D

Hello :wave:

as like casm wrote ... I believe most parts will fit. I never had a 2,1 Diesel of my own.
But here are 2 forums and in the German Forum there are smoe guys having a 2.1 Renault engine .... So maybe they can help ...
In the Austrian forum I know one who is mechanic at Daimler-Chrysler. So maybe he had anything to do with the 2.1 ?? I will aks only in the Austrian forum for you.
To get the parts it's still better to look for them in the states. The gap between Euro and Dollar is high and this makes such deals with europe a little bit expensive (also the customs and shipping).

The forums:
www.jeepforum.de German Jeep Forum
www.jeepforum.at Austrian Jeep-Forum (it's smaller but the guys are more helpful)

greetings from Austria
Rainer :wave:

[Sarge]

The new Diesel in the Liberty that should come to the states soon will probablly work it's way into the Wrangler line. I think that's good news for Jeep in general.

Here already. Or at least I saw a few sitting at a lot here in St Louis.

Sarge

[casm]

Here already. Or at least I saw a few sitting at a lot here in St Louis.

Yup. And none of them can be sold new in CARB states (CA, NY, ME, MA, VT).

I hate barkeaters. They'd rather knee-jerk with hybrids than go with established efficient engine technology.

[Woodstock]

that's a thing i never will understand ...
the diesel is much better in case of environmental pollution than the gas engine (aside the problem of particles)...

but particle-filters are still invented and are factory built in by Peugeot and i think renault (of course in their own cars)... and it will not last very long and every (newer) diesel engine will get this particle-filter to put it in ...

[Fudd]

Thanks for the help, I'll check those forums out. Yeah its messed up how the US is bashing all the new diesels coming out. The Liberty CRD gets better highway mileage than the Ford Escape Hybrid.

[casm]

but particle-filters are still invented and are factory built in by Peugeot and i think renault (of course in their own cars)...

Yes, the Peugeot FAP (http://www.psa-peugeot-citroen.com/modules/fap/fap_en.pdf) (.PDF) system. Very efficient, and requiring a filter to be changed every 50,000 miles (which takes about 15 minutes). A brilliant system; shame we can't buy Peugeots here anymore.

The Liberty CRD gets better highway mileage than the Ford Escape Hybrid.

When I was at home (Ireland) over Christmas, my dad and I were watching an economy test that the BBC's Top Gear (http://www.topgear.com/) conducted between a Toyota Prius and a comparably-sized diesel, the manufacturer of which I've forgotten. From what I remember, the Prius averaged around 42MPG, the diesel in the mid- to upper-50s.

To put that in perspective, I have a 1977 Renault LeCar (http://www.arcticboy.com/Pages/arcticboysrenault.html). Its 1.3-litre, carburetted, smog-pumped, vacuum-helled, catalysed engine allows it to average 37-40mpg. Granted, it doesn't have to haul around the weight of the Prius - standard equipment includes power nothing and a canvas roof. But in terms of comparative economy, in 30 years of automotive development hybrids really haven't progressed all that much over gas-powered econoboxes.

[Chancer]

I don't know what you're all complaining about - I've just worked out that we're charged the equivalent of $5.51 per US gallon for petrol/ gas, which brings LPG prices (at about half that here) roughly in line with what you guys pay for non-converted cars. Diesel is $5.85 per gallon here! Think yourselves lucky my friends...

If you're wanting some Euro-based forums - well, Brit really - try these sites:
www.j33p.org (as the name suggests, Jeep orientated)
http://www.difflock.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi (big site for lots of different vehicles)
http://www.darksiderz.co.uk/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?s=4030a176fc9cffff;act=SF;f=8 (Darksiderz - a bunch of hardcore offroad nutters)

Have fun!

[Woodstock]

and here is a info about renault-engines from the austrian Jeep-Forum

http://www.krausmotor.de/zylinderkopf/renault_zyl.htm

i didn't have a look ... i hope there is some useable info on it :wave:

[2drezq]

we're charged the equivalent of $5.51 per US gallon for petrol/ gas, which brings LPG prices Diesel is $5.85 per gallon here! :wow:
:wow:

[casm]

I've just worked out that we're charged the equivalent of $5.51 per US gallon for petrol/ gas

True, but remember that most of that cost is tax. If the government weren't so hellbent on taking every penny it possibly can out of motorists' pockets, your prices would be about in line with ours.

Also, what has most people trying to improve MPG figures here is that the cost of fuel has almost doubled in the last two years - regardless of how comparatively cheap it may be, that's still a pretty sizeable hit on the finances.

[Heavy_Equipment]

I was all set to whine about our $3.15 US gallon here in the Toronto area, but Chancer wins. Yikes.

My experience with diesels tells me it's not the thing for off road. They run hot at the best of times, never mind crawling along without much airflow.
Small block conversion guys have trouble with cooling, so I have no doubt a 100hp+ diesel will not like it in an XJ either.

[Woodstock]

My experience with diesels tells me it's not the thing for off road. They run hot at the best of times, never mind crawling along without much airflow.
Small block conversion guys have trouble with cooling, so I have no doubt a 100hp+ diesel will not like it in an XJ either.

The only thing i can add here: The 4.2 L with teh carburettor ... This engine really dies on steep hills and you nearly can do nothing against ....

And it's not true that the Diesels run hot (not hotter than the gas engines) ... excluding the 2.5 VM diesel engine :laugh3: This one don't like to run on high rpm without damage ...

The next thing is that they only have 115 hp (my 2.5 Diesel) but the torque is as much as the 4 L gas engine .. :wave:

[indydave]

Hello,

ok i am a parts guy in a dealership(ford) in owning an 87 xj turbodiesel 2.1L I have educated myself about them parts are avail!! i have a place i can get them from. Transmission ,the bellhousing/front bearing retainer is the only thing diff it uses a standard 5speed man jeep trans so any gas motor trans will work if you have the bellhousing. this motor is VERY similar to the phaser/winnebago motor but there are diff jeep(rwd) winnie(fwd). as far as keeping it running thats not a problem. Do not bump boost levels or it will break parts, Other than that they are durable getting 30+mpg and offroad they have same or better torque as a 2.5 gas. I am in the process of dual fueling mine with a secondary fuel system running on WVO. All mj/xj 2.1`s seem to have 3.73 gears. Radiator the same as gas 2.8. rest of the jeep other than fuel support is all same. I am new here and look foreward to hearing from other diesel xj owners!! Dave