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I Hate Abs

M

MAXJ

NAXJA Forum User
Location
Massachussetts
Allright, drove the XJ in the snow for the first time tonight and the roads were very slick. I have never liked ABS, after almost getting into 2 accidents tonight as a cause of it i hate it even more. What is involved with getting rid of all that trash? Is it a matter of disconnecting the computer? It doesnt let you do anything. At least with normal brakes if i need to stop fast i can get the car sideways or spin it, ABS just makes you go straight. And it comes on WAY too easily.
 
MAXJ said:
Allright, drove the XJ in the snow for the first time tonight and the roads were very slick. I have never liked ABS, after almost getting into 2 accidents tonight as a cause of it i hate it even more. What is involved with getting rid of all that trash? Is it a matter of disconnecting the computer? It doesnt let you do anything. At least with normal brakes if i need to stop fast i can get the car sideways or spin it, ABS just makes you go straight. And it comes on WAY too easily.
Click to expand...


Man I dont know if I want to drive the same roads as you! Do you always pitch it sideways or spin out when you need to stop fast? Sounds like the only reason you want to get rid of the abs is because you dont know how to use it! I have abs on 3 of my cars (not my XJ) and love it just put your foot on the brake and let the car do the rest. The problem with abs is most people who have never had it tend to still pump the brakes when stopping which counteracts the abs system. Learn to drive it before you dispise it!

P.S. just disconnect the abs fuse
 
The biggest advantage of ABS is the ability to stop straight on split coefficient surfaces, where one side is on say a paved road and the other side is on the gravel shoulder or ice. No argument that it gives control even to the best driver in that circumstance. However, on my TJ, I have experimented on ice, gravel roads, slush, dirty asphalt, etc. with the ABS active and disabled. In all cases, while it does take more concentration, I could stop the Jeep in a shorter distance without the ABS. I have another good example. On steep climbs of loose dirt or other low traction surfaces, if you lose traction and need to step on the brakes abruptly after spinning the tires, the ABS will be invoked when the wheels quickly stop and you start rolling backward w/ the ABS trying to slow gradually when what you really want is the wheels locked to dig in to the soft surface. After a few scary backward downhill maneuvers, I disabled ABS and have lived without it since. No doubt the system could be tuned more agressively to enhance off road performance, but that doesn't seem to be the focus of its application.
 
MAXJ said:
Allright, drove the XJ in the snow for the first time tonight and the roads were very slick. I have never liked ABS, after almost getting into 2 accidents tonight as a cause of it i hate it even more. What is involved with getting rid of all that trash? Is it a matter of disconnecting the computer? It doesnt let you do anything. At least with normal brakes if i need to stop fast i can get the car sideways or spin it, ABS just makes you go straight. And it comes on WAY too easily.
Click to expand...

Um...

You're driving WAY too aggressively (a) for snow, or (b) for your tires or (c) both. I've had ABS in three cars (a total of 120k miles), and I've only ever had it kick in maybe a dozen times in those years, and ALWAYS in a panic situation... never during normal driving conditions.

Have you thought that maybe last night it was just much slipperier than you thought? Not all snow is created equal. And why were you hitting the brakes hard enough to nearly lock 'em up in snow anyways? When *I* am driving in snow, I do everything gently... unless some mo-ron pulls in front of me.

(My non-ABS XJ almost got sideways on a DRY interstate yesterday because of some dumb-**ck on a cellphone that attempted to "merge" with my right-front fender!!)

Den
 
If you want to get rid of your Abs...drink more beer and stay out of the gym!
 
First off, i have never liked ABS and my other cars have been non-ABS cars. Last night was very slippery, but since i bought it saturday it has kicked on on me in multiple situations where i really wish it hadn't. Last night was very slippery, and i know without ABS i would slide plenty too, but when you slide with ABS you go straight, with non-ABS i have more control. I just don't feel in control with ABS because i have been in many worse situations without it and come out fine where if i had it i wouldnt have. In my old truck (74 chevy shortbed with 35's) i lost control in the snow (was in 2wd at the time) and was heading for a telephone pole. I locked the brakes and cut the wheel and managed to slide around it into a driveway, with ABS i would have gone straight into it. I just don't feel comfortable with a machine like that in control instead of myself. I do drive aggressively sometimes, but i have been in enough situations that i can handle myself in the snow and i would much rather be in a situation where i feel in control. I will agree however that for dry pavement i would prefer ABS because it does stop you fast. And by the way, when i meant i could kick the car out with non-ABS i dont mean recklessly or anything, i do it to avoid accidents with other people that seem to think my cars can stop just as fast in the snow as in other conditions. By the way, my fuse panel cover is missing, are the fuses labeled in the manual?
 
Cottontail said:
If you want to get rid of your Abs...drink more beer and stay out of the gym!
Click to expand...

I was waiting for a line like that. Good work, Jedi.
 
MAXJ --

I hate ABS. Won't have it in my own vehicles, but I really wish my wife's vehicle had it. I live in NE, and I love driving in snow. Here's a hint from someone who has been driving in New England winters probably longer than you have been alive: You cannot stop a vehicle quicker without ABS than with ABS unless you are REALLY paying attention and pumping the brakes. Going into a drift or slide is NOT going to stop you faster than simply steering straight and stepping on the brakes with ABS. Period. Ain't gonna happen. If you think throwing your vehicle into a side slide is better than just stepping on the brakes and coming to a straight, ABS-controlled stop .., you're wrong. Very wrong.
 
Anyone interested in driving lessons should look into some of the performance/racing driving manuals. They are very informative when it comes to car control, and though they're tailored to track driving, the info is useful anywhere. While pumping the brakes is an accepted and taught method, it is used improperly many times. You can't just apply and release the brakes going from lockup to no braking pressure and back without understanding how the contact patch of the tire works. Keeping the wheel near lockup, even on ice, involves much less variation of pedal pressure than just pumping the pedal. Another good thing to understand is the "circle of traction". Imagine a circle divided into quadrants. N being drive, S being braking and E,W being right, left respectively. If all of the tractive effort of the tire is going to brake, then none is left to provide lateral control. This is why ABS provides strg. control, or the ability to stop straight. It limits the tractive effort put toward braking and leaves some left over to maintain directional control. That is why if you can learn to brake at the threshold of traction, you can outstop ABS, although maintaining directional control becomes more difficult.
While I have never spent time on a track, reading about these theories has given a whole new perspective to offroad driving also. Off camber, slippery, technical terrain gives you plenty of opportunity to practice these skills and has only made my on road driving better.
 
explorer said:
Anyone interested in driving lessons should look into some of the performance/racing driving manuals. They are very informative when it comes to car control, and though they're tailored to track driving, the info is useful anywhere. While pumping the brakes is an accepted and taught method, it is used improperly many times. You can't just apply and release the brakes going from lockup to no braking pressure and back without understanding how the contact patch of the tire works. Keeping the wheel near lockup, even on ice, involves much less variation of pedal pressure than just pumping the pedal. Another good thing to understand is the "circle of traction". Imagine a circle divided into quadrants. N being drive, S being braking and E,W being right, left respectively. If all of the tractive effort of the tire is going to brake, then none is left to provide lateral control. This is why ABS provides strg. control, or the ability to stop straight. It limits the tractive effort put toward braking and leaves some left over to maintain directional control. That is why if you can learn to brake at the threshold of traction, you can outstop ABS, although maintaining directional control becomes more difficult.
While I have never spent time on a track, reading about these theories has given a whole new perspective to offroad driving also. Off camber, slippery, technical terrain gives you plenty of opportunity to practice these skills and has only made my on road driving better.
Click to expand...

I think certain genres of XJ pilots out there are exceeding the performance envelope of most generic AB systems. Therefore they become a hindrance in the extremes of off-roading or having fun in the snow. They are meant to help out the a) unexperienced b) uneducated and c) inebriated sector of the population on the highway in less than optimal conditions.

PULL THE PLUG !!
 
Yeah, i was just mad that night at it because i loved it so much in the snow after a 95 caravan with bald tires and a 74 chevy stepside with 35's, then the ABS kept coming on when i felt it really shoudlnt be and felt it was causing more problems then preventing. Basically it comes down to i am way more comfortable stopping myself than trusting it to a computer. I love driving in the snow too, and in numerous situations, especially when i was less experienced in snow driving, i had used the ability to slide out or spin with normal brakes in order to avoid obstacles that i might slide into because sometimes even an inch or two is a huge difference.

I read an intersting article once too, not sure where i found it, it was a few weeks ago, but it said that cars that get into accidents caused by sliding or skidding are more likely to be fatal with ABS than without. Now again, there are so many factors to that, but it made me kind of curious about it, trying to think why that would be. Anyone else ever heard this?
 
Pull the axles, remove the speedo rings(magnetic speed sensing rings) (wish i had a pic)other than the light coming on, no more ABS.... I do not advise this proceedure. But no more abs..
 
Yes, accident stats are interesting to analyse. I have a vehicle dynamics textbook that shows some stats related to rollover proprensity of various vehicles. The stats obviously favor cars as opposed to utility vehicles, but the major contributing factor is whether the vehicle left the roadway. The tripping effect of the wheels digging into soft surfaces had a significant effect. As did wheelbase, independent of wheel track or CG height.
 
Does that have anything on ABS equipped vehicles? I am really curious what would cause them to be more fatal, such as in a snow situation coming around a turn and ABS locks up you might go straight into a head-on collision with another vehicle coming the other way whereas if they locked the brakes they might go sideways and take the other car to their rear or something. Thats all i can think about, that locking brakes would spin a car and ABS would keep it straight which might cause the fatal accidents.
 
i will posit this: drivers who have abs may end up driving more aggressively.
If you pull the abs, i bet you'll drive more safely as a side-effect.

sometimes i wish my jeep had an anchor
 
No info on ABS as it relates to accident stats. Although I know there is info out there on this subject. The situation you are supposing is now handled by stability control systems on many vehicles where they take into account strg. angle, throttle, brake, and multiple g-sensors to brake individual wheels to guide the vehicle the direction its driver intends it to. Now, if we could still just educate the drivers. I think all of these systems have a place, and even great drivers can take advantage of them. But the driver still needs to be up to the task. None of the systems can override the laws of physics when it comes to the available traction. All they can do is use them more efficiently.

MAXJ said:
Does that have anything on ABS equipped vehicles? I am really curious what would cause them to be more fatal, such as in a snow situation coming around a turn and ABS locks up you might go straight into a head-on collision with another vehicle coming the other way whereas if they locked the brakes they might go sideways and take the other car to their rear or something. Thats all i can think about, that locking brakes would spin a car and ABS would keep it straight which might cause the fatal accidents.
Click to expand...
 
MAXJ said:
At least with normal brakes if i need to stop fast i can get the car sideways or spin it, ABS just makes you go straight.
Click to expand...


ABS DOES NOT make you go straight. ABS ensures maximum braking while the driver STEERS around the obstacle and it ensures you don't slide or spin broadside into oncoming traffic (meaning ME). Don't forget that you now have traction to steer and traction to stop BOTH at the same time . 4x4 or ABS does not mean your XJ will have any more traction or other superpowers than any other vehicles on the road. You have to have control of your vehicle (slow down?) and make smooth changes in direction, or from gas to brakes. I live in MN and we get plenty of snow. The most common vehicle in the ditch on a snowy day is an SUV.
 
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