Alignment & Camber

After my 4wd conversion in which i swapped to a d30 front axle and replaced ball joints, tie rod ends..etc, i took the jeep to an alignment shop in which they adjusted erything but said my camber was off and wasnt adjustable. My question is what woould cause this, the ball joints are brand new. What should i do if anything ?

The values were -1.1 and .6 b4 the alignment and now are -1.2 and .9

pete

anyone ...i need to get to the bottom of this ?

pete

Do you know the before and after specs on toe, castor, SAI?

Before

CAmber: -1.1 & .6
Caaster: 7.1 & 7.5
Toe: 1.36 & .51
Total Toe: 1.87
Steer Ahead: .42

After

CAmber: -1.2 & .9
Caaster: 7.1 & 7.5
Toe: 0 & 0
Total Toe: 0
Steer Ahead: 0

THanks
pete

It seems curious that one side has negative camber and the other is positive. Having low air pressure or a worn tire on one side would explain this. I would try to measure the height of the hubs and compare left side to right. See if the side with -1.2 camber is higher. You'll have to be fairly accurate in your measuring to detect a difference, but I'd give it a shot. Of course check your air pressure and measure tread depth too.

If you can't explain the difference with these measurements, the axle may very well be bent. Offset ball joints are available to adjust camber and castor. I've never used them so I can't speak to how good of a fix this is. If it were my axle and was sure that the problem was a bent axle, I'd consider running a weld bead or two along the axle tube. Heat shrinkage will cause the tube to curve towards the side you weld on. Did you happen to do any welding on the axle as part of the conversion? If you welded on any bracketry or used a cutting torch to remove older brackets, you may have caused the problem.

I would also consider reducing the castor to around 6 degrees. Changes in toe can affect camber readings when you have a lot of castor. the adjustments made to your toe setting is probably why your "after" reading on camber changed.

good luck

Well there are a few things that i have thought about that could maybe cause this but i am not sure if its possible.

First issue is i used the knuckles from my 94 on the 93 donor axles - is this a prob ?

Maybe the lug nuts , shaft 36mm nut and hub bolts arent tightened properly ?

After the donor axle installation i drove for about 2-3 months with screwed up toe and caster until this recent alignment --could this have screwed up the front tires so bad that they are showin this effect ?


As far as MaxJohnsons comments i appreicate your respnse but i dont see how i could have a bent axle housing as i really havent done anything with it or not yet at least ..lol.

Also when you say to measure the hubs for diff heights ..can u please suggest how i would do that ?

Any other suggestions ?

Thanks
pete

Best thing... Don't worry about camber on a 4x4... especially with the numbers you have... its not going to cause any abnormal tire wear if you rotate every 5 to 7k like you are supposed to.

Caster, however should be reduced to about 6 to 6.5 * on a lifted cherokee.

0 toe is a problem too... they should be around .5*

looking at those numbers I'd suspect it is very sensitive to steering wheel movement.

i predict you are going to complain about death wobble in the near future.

Well i plan of lifting the heep with a BB so i guess i will lift it make sure everything is tight get a tire rotation, check the tire pressure and get it re-aligned at a diff shop that maybe knows what theya are doing ? What are the standard/acceptable values for each of these things ?

thanks
pete

Due to the way that the modern alignment systems work, tire pressure is no longer a factor during the measurements.

Hate to say it, but it sounds like a bent axle housing. I just replaced the front D60 in my Dodge Ram due to a bending (and getting worse) housing. It was actually bending over time, about a degree in 6 months, and the axle disconnect wouldn't even engage anymore.

I fashioned my response around a lifted cherokee.. so i guess i was being a bit presumptious..sorry about that.

in stock form those readings are ok except for the toe.

camber readings should be -.75 to .50 * and can be affected by severely worn tires. There is an offset upper ball joint that can be installed to correct camber but usually, the cost outweighs the effect.

Well the tires arent badly worn if anything only slightly, the tires have less than 7k on them.

Is their a way i can check to see if the axle is bent bc i dont think it is as it has no reason to be bent it is? or rather if the knuckles are bad ?

pete

ChiXJeff said:

Due to the way that the modern alignment systems work, tire pressure is no longer a factor during the measurements.

Click to expand...

I can see where that might be true related to castor, toe and SAI, but not camber. Can you elaborate?

If it helps...

My steering isnt bad its just its very sensitive and i drive with the steering wheel to the right to go straight.

Today i was lookin at my alignment report further and i noticed that the rear which i know isnt adjustable is exactly opposite. The rear camber is -.9 and 1.1 as if it was to compensate for seomthing ?????

Boy am i confused, i am starting to lose confidence it the alignment shop all together.

Ya and how doesnt tire pressure and lug nuts being overtightened not effect the camber ?? Its measured with all four tires on a stand ???

Well, I've done a few alignments in my day (literally, a few) but I did learn alot while learning how to do them and then actually performing the alignments that I did.

I don't care what anyone says, check the tire pressures. I've used the latest, most high-tech alignment machines and even still the first step that computer tells you to do is check the tire pressure, as well as a full inspection of suspension components. If you listed those camber specs L/R, then I'd say your right front tire is low on air, and possibly your right rear as well with the rear specs you listed.(Should be very near 0) If they didn't even check your air pressure, then Strike #1.

One of the things I see wrong with your specs is the toe. On an XJ, toe should actually be slightly negative.(According to the machine I used and 2 separate alignment spec books) It should be -0.5/-0.5, with a total toe of -1.0. Strike #2.

You say that your steering wheel isn't straight. After the other stuff was taken care of, they should've adjusted the sleeve on the center link. It's very simple and very easy to get to, there's no reason they didn't. Strike #3.

IMO: I'd go back if I were you, you paid for an alignment and it doesn't seem that you got half of what you should've.

My tires wore badly when I had almost as much camber as you have. You can correct camber with offset ball joints. They come in various degrees of offset. You'll want the left side camber to be slightly (about 1/4 degree) more positive than the right side to compensate for road crown. If your XJ is pre-'90, there are offset bushings available for the lower ball joints. You can do toe with a tape measure. You can buy a caster/camber gauge on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4525569094&category=43998

Alright 98xj so your suggestion is to check air and possibly rotate tires and get it checked again at a diff alignment station ?

The place i went too uses this new laser technology , maybe this technology isnt good yet or the ppl dont know how to use it ?

pete

jeepsrock said:

Alright 98xj so your suggestion is to check air and possibly rotate tires and get it checked again at a diff alignment station ?

The place i went too uses this new laser technology , maybe this technology isnt good yet or the ppl dont know how to use it ?

pete

Click to expand...

The technology is very good in my opinion, I'm willing to bet that the latter reason you mentioned is the cause of your poor alignment. Alignments aren't exactly rocket science. Hell, the better of the 2 machines that I've used actually tells you what needs to be done (where to add/remove shims, what eccentrics to turn which way, etc.) specific to the vehicle that you're working on.

So yeah, adjust your tire pressures and rotate them if necessary. I think it would be a good idea to have the 2 most closely worn tires on the front, but thats just me.

It's up to you whether you want to take it back to the same shop that butchered it in the first place and try to get it right, or maybe just drop some coin and take it to another, hopefully more reputable, shop.

Just FYI: If you tend to drive a good bit on well-crowned roads, you may want to have road-crown compensation set into the alignment specs. The preferred method of doing this is with the camber(as PaulJ was getting at), but is much more easily accomplished on an XJ using the caster. You will want, IIRC, 0.5* LESS positive caster on the driver's side. What this will do is cause a very slight pull to the left. On a crowned road, this will come across as less of a tendency to want to pull "down" the road on the shoulder.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do,

Chad

Thanks 98xj for the advice just one last question regarding this issue. IF i plan to put in a budget boost consisting of front spacers and rear full AAL, should i do this before i get it re-aligned ?

Also as far as the alignment what are good numbers and ranges you reccommend ?

Thanks
pete

MaXJohnson said:

I can see where that might be true related to castor, toe and SAI, but not camber. Can you elaborate?

Click to expand...

The last couple of alignment systems I've watched in action use rim centered sensors. I may be hallucinating, but I thought that the vehicle was lifted by the machine to take pressure off the tires.

Well when i got the alignment done the sensors where put on the wheel rims but the car as a whole was lifted not just the body.

???