3 link long arms

[Gary E]

Whats the consensus and does anyone have any experience with running a RE longarm type setup, (same as claytons and rustys) with just one upper arm, like just running the upper to the pumpkin and not running an upper arm to the other side by the vac disco?

when the two uppers are used I know in flex situations they will fight each other and if rubber bushings aren't used something will give. Also I think Andy has to replace rubber bushings every year or so.

PS when I say upper I mean the link that mounts from the lower long arm to the mount on the axle where the upper control arms used to connect.

[REDXJ4FUN]

I'm actually running that right now. I have to work one of the bugs out though. My mount for the upper on the long arm its self is making the whole arm piviot and changing the pinion angle and caster but that was a screw up on my part. I wish i had time to fix it so i can truly see how well it drives. but as for flex its unreal and enuf that i had to put extended bumpstops on it so that the RK 6in coils wouldn't fall off the towers.

[CRASH]

Well, I think it's totally doable, but I would replace all rubber bushings with a good quality poly material. Trying to run one upper with rubber stuff is going to add too much flex to the system and create some sloppy handling under braking.

Actually, my "rubbers" have lasted three years, but they are done for right now. Need to change them out ASAP.

CRASH

[CRASH]

Also, I would run a couple of heim joints on the remaining upper arm, to increase stiffnes even more.

My buggy is getting RE spherical bearings on each end of the lower arms, and two heims on the single upper arm.

CRASH

[Beezil]

I agree with andy.

I'd use poly or rubber for a pair of links, but if you wanna run one upper, I'd suggest a "hard link".

that's what I be runnin'.......no rubber, no poly, all johnnies and heims, and running one upper on my passenger side.

[JnJ]

Ditto what Andy and Beez said, I've got JJs at both ends of lowers and Heim at both ends of the upper.

[Cresso]

I run TREs and incorporated a locking feature. It's the shizzy fo sho. Massive flex on the trail and tighter than running swaybars (which I don't have) on the street.

[Ted Z]

Why passenger side Beez?

[RCP Phx]

I think he's runnin a 44(no pumpkin mount),easy to add on the passenger side!

[Cresso]

Be careful, though. While easier to do, adding the top link to the passeneger side of a driver's side drop axle has the potential for a much more drastic pinion angle when the driver's side droops and the passenger side is compressed. You won't experience this nearly as much (if at all) with the top link on the driver's side.

[Beezil]

passenger side cause my tracbar mount is tied into the passenger side upper, making it many more times stronger than the drivers side upper mount.

http://users.rcn.com/beezil/public/Arm4.JPG

yeah, I know, ya can't see the tracbar mount in this pic anyway.....

[Cresso]

Do you happen to have another picture with the track bar bracket? Looks like some damn fine radius arm brackets, too. I like!

[XJJPR]

Originally posted by Beezil
passenger side cause my tracbar mount is tied into the passenger side upper, making it many more times stronger than the drivers side upper mount.

http://users.rcn.com/beezil/public/Arm4.JPG

yeah, I know, ya can't see the INNER WELD ON THE ARM BRACKET EITHER in this pic

Are you leaving that for trail repair?

mark
orgs mfg

[Beezil]

http://users.rcn.com/beezil/public/trackb~3.jpg

http://users.rcn.com/beezil/public/trac1.JPG

http://users.rcn.com/beezil/public/Steering9.JPG

[CRASH]

Dude, your axle is on backwards! From those pics, it appears you are using a LOW pinion front axle. What up with dat?

CRASH

[Beezil]

Farmermatt says it was like, THE THING to do, he says "all the cool kids run EB's" But the low pinion thing is not a big deal, cause farmermatt says you can make an EB axle even better by flipping it around so that it is high pinion and adding a counter-clockwise kit to the 231.

I swear that guy knows his shit.

[Beezil]

Yo Hinkley......

you better PRAY we don't end up on the same trail together in Moab, I mean, the gloves are off pal.

[JnJ]

Thems some purdy blue knuckles you got.

[brent]

one upper arm isn't enough to controll your axle wrap in the front, don't do it.

[JnJ]

Originally posted by brent
one upper arm isn't enough to controll your axle wrap in the front, don't do it.

Not true, plenty of folks here run only one upper.

[XJoachim]

Originally posted by JnJ
Not true, plenty of folks here run only one upper.
But i'm sure there is no stock Dana 30 :D

[XJJPR]

Originally posted by XJoachim
But i'm sure there is no stock Dana 30 :D

We will find out soon!

http://www.orgsmfg.com/project/mj.htm

Scroll down to the front suspension pics.

mark
orgs mfg

[XJJPR]

Originally posted by brent
one upper arm isn't enough to controll your axle wrap in the front, don't do it.

Why not?

mark
orgs mfg

[CRASH]

Well, Brent is basing his opinion on his poorly designed front suspension that gave up the ghost on BOTW I. It was designed to be an RE style longarm, but after he busted an arm and a mount, it turned into a single arm system.

A well designed single upper arm works like a champ to control axle torque.

CRASH

[Beezil]

one upper arm isn't enough to controll your axle wrap in the front, don't do it.

would you like to QUALIFY that statement with some visual geometry or some testimony based on first hand experience?

or would ya just like to learn a little bit first?

[Beezil]

Be careful, though. While easier to do, adding the top link to the passeneger side of a driver's side drop axle has the potential for a much more drastic pinion angle when the driver's side droops and the passenger side is compressed. You won't experience this nearly as much (if at all) with the top link on the driver's side.


Cresso, this isn't correct. Remember this is a discussion on radius arms, which is a completely different animal than the quad link per stock.

The axle is rigid, it does not matter where you put the upper, as long as it is strong enough to resist.


if some of you guys are having trouble visualizing the geometry and the movement, build a simple model.

the lowers position the axle underneath the vehicle to maintain wheelbase position. The tracbar keeps the axle positioned under the vehicle (left-to-right) as it pivots in an arc centered on the frame mount on a radius relative to the length of the link to its axle mount. the single upper has a simple task of keeping the axle from rotating in relation to the lower arm arc.

The lower radius arms have ONE CENTERPOINT of arc movement. This is different than the stock quad link that has TWO centerpoints of arc. the upper link on a radius set-up does not go to a different point on the 'frame'. It ties into the lower arm.

the axle CANNOT TWIST AS LONG AS ONE UPPER (OR TWO) REMAIN FIXED.

[Safari Ary]

Mark, do you have any shots of the rear of the axle? I'm trying to figure out what you got goin on and I don't quite get it. It almost looks like you're just running 3 short arms, yes no? It also looks like you inboarded the LCAs makin the angles steeper. Thanks

Ary

[Beezil]

Thems some purdy blue knuckles you got.

I figure I'm safe posting those pictures since one ton got goofey with yellow paint on his.....

[JnJ]

Originally posted by Beezil
I figure I'm safe posting those pictures since one ton got goofey with yellow paint on his.....

True, true.....

[Cresso]

Originally posted by Beezil
Cresso, this isn't correct. Remember this is a discussion on radius arms, which is a completely different animal than the quad link per stock.

The axle is rigid, it does not matter where you put the upper, as long as it is strong enough to resist.


if some of you guys are having trouble visualizing the geometry and the movement, build a simple model.

the lowers position the axle underneath the vehicle to maintain wheelbase position. The tracbar keeps the axle positioned under the vehicle (left-to-right) as it pivots in an arc centered on the frame mount on a radius relative to the length of the link to its axle mount. the single upper has a simple task of keeping the axle from rotating in relation to the lower arm arc.

The lower radius arms have ONE CENTERPOINT of arc movement. This is different than the stock quad link that has TWO centerpoints of arc. the upper link on a radius set-up does not go to a different point on the 'frame'. It ties into the lower arm.

the axle CANNOT TWIST AS LONG AS ONE UPPER (OR TWO) REMAIN FIXED.

The axle itself can't twist from one end to the other, but that's what produces the poor angle that I'm speaking of. The side with the two links dictates the pinion angle. Adjusting the the links such that the pinion always points at the transfer case is pretty logical and makes it a cinch to set up the dshaft with a double cardan joint. Blah blah blah, you already know that.

The effect I'm talking about happens on the other side of the axle when it's articulated. It's gonna be hard to describe without pictures and I probably shouldn't be drawing pictures while at work. =) The axle you have pictured above doesn't appear to point straight at the xfer case, so it'll have the problem even worse. For illustration, let's say the whole fron suspension is compressed. The pinion will be quite a bit higher than it is now and will be pointing a little bit down (because it's level in the first one and radius arms travel in an arc). Now keep the passenger side up there and let the driver's side articulate all the way down. Your pinion will still be pointing a little below centerline because the side the dictates the twist of the axle is still twisted that way. Conversely, keep the driver's side up and articulate the passenger side down and now your pinion will point up quite a bit.

If, however, you have the arm that determines the pinion angle on the pinion side of the axle, the angle of the pinion will follow the arc of the radius arms MUCH more closely. Obviously, there's no way to get rid of of the wrong rotation completely because the diff is between the two arms and will therefore be somewhere between the two angle-wise. It's easy to brush this off as only a marginal difference, but trust me, it's actually quite significant. The design of the arms I use facilitate switching them from side to side fairly easily and the designer of these arms did exactly that. I'll see if I can dig up some pictures because the difference really should be seen. With the upper arm on the pinion side, the axle always tilted to point right at the xfer case. Put the upper arm on the long side of the axle and the pinion angle got REALLY nasty when articulated.

[JnJ]

Cresso, what did you use at the ends of your links?

[Cresso]

Large tie rod ends.

[XJJPR]

Originally posted by Ary'01XJ
Mark, do you have any shots of the rear of the axle? I'm trying to figure out what you got goin on and I don't quite get it. It almost looks like you're just running 3 short arms, yes no? It also looks like you inboarded the LCAs makin the angles steeper. Thanks

Ary

The arms are all stock style for lifted XJs. Lowers Approx 16.5" and upper around 15.5". They all mount in the stock areas, slight movement on the upper for the large JJ clearance. It's just a basic 3 arm or just one arm removed from the stock set up to releave some bind. The Arms are a little steeper than my XJ but the MJ is a little higher. The camera shot is up at an angle also.

mark
orgs mfg

[XJJPR]

Originally posted by Cresso
Large tie rod ends.

Not sure if I'm following this right but;

Are you using these on suspension links/arms (upper or lower or both)?

If yes: Got any pictures?

mark
orgs mfg

[Cresso]

Yup, you're reading right. I'm using them at the axle end of both the upper and lower arms. They work great and allow a lot less slop, more deflection and superior wear over a standard bolt or heim (maybe not more deflection than a heim, but certainly the other two points hold true).

This is the best pic I have, but unfortunately, it's on my old Ranger. Same exact arms, ever so slightly different mount to the axle (it's now using a bolt-on bracket designed for an EB axle).

http://66.87.49.205/~dtabb/images/steer06.jpg

Sorry about the slow server.

[XJJPR]

Cresso,

That lower one looks really large. Nice size (thick) bracket!

Is that a bolt/sleeve for twist or adjustment.

Duct tape for keeping dirt out?

mark
orgs mfg

[Cresso]

That top link is the wristed portion. Tighten those top two bolts and the top link becomes a static length link. Combine that with the other side which has a top link as well and you end up with a very solid, very roll-resistant setup. Loosen those two bolts and the top link can slide in and out, thereby wristing that side. It's a super slick configuration and I'm extremely happy with the performance. The duct tape is to hold the drive shaft in without u-bolts. Didn't have any when this picture was taken. The lower TRE is off a commercial truck. I believe a Ford E3000 or something like that. The head of the TRE is roughly the size of my palm. Enormous. EDIT: for scale, that's a Dana 60.

I'll see if I can get some pictures of the current setup as it sits on the XJ tonight.

[Cresso]

Here it is from behind on the XJ:

http://66.87.49.205/~dtabb/images/done/done05.jpg

Ignore the track bar. Had a small mishap on the trail. =)

More pictures from other angles here:

Link (http://66.87.49.205/~dtabb/images/done/)

[Beezil]

okay, I see what yer sayin, but what kinda pinion angle are you seeing on your set-up that has you worried? we talkin NASTY NASTY, or just a lil' bitty nasty?

are we talkin' u-joint shatterin' filthy nasty?

or is it driveline vibration nasty?

if its 15-20 degree driveshaft shakin, I myself don't worry about that for two reasons: hubs and trailer......

Man I used to think a 15-20 degree pinion angle was nasty until I saw all those crazy ridge-runnin CJ'ers down in tellico, holy shit! we're talkin 45-degree angles on some of these rigs...aint no thang!

[Beezil]

oh, sorry, one more question.....

does this mean you run your single upper on the drivers side then?

[Cresso]

We're talking vehicle-bucking, driveshaft-can-barely-turn, can't-believe-it's-NOT-shattering-u-joints bind. I'm still looking for the pictures of when the designer put it on the pinion side.

One thing I did neglect to mention but will affect this problem is the length of the arms. The longer the arms, the greater the radius of the arc that the radius arms travel through, the less angle change there is for the same amount of axle travel. So on an XJ, if you're wristing AND lengthening, it won't be such a big deal. Using the locking radius arms I have on mine, the shorter the radius arm, the greater the bind when it's locked. Since there's no bind whatsoever when it's not locked, it's actually desirable to keep the arms short. It makes for a greater disparity between the two "modes".

And yea, my static link is on the driver's side. It's threaded on both ends like a tie rod (opposite thread on each end), which lets me set the caster by simply loosening a couple jam nuts and twisting the link.

Sorry if I'm coming off a little too proud. It's an ingenius design and I really wish I had come up with it. hehe. I'm just one of very few lucky benefactors of the product.

[Cresso]

45 degree? How the hell do they pull that off? I'd love to see a picture or two of that...

[Beezil]

coming off to proud? not at all, hope I'm not coming across as an argumentative prick.

(now watch while jnj and scott mac use this as an opportunity to flame)

[XJJPR]

Originally posted by Beezil
hope I'm not coming across as an argumentative prick. :dunno::confused: :angel::eek::rolleyes: :looney: :nono: :twak: :worship: :puke: :moon: :looser: :doh:

[brent]

Originally posted by CRASH
Well, Brent is basing his opinion on his poorly designed front suspension that gave up the ghost on BOTW I. It was designed to be an RE style longarm, but after he busted an arm and a mount, it turned into a single arm system.

A well designed single upper arm works like a champ to control axle torque.

CRASH a little saurcasm will only get you flamed here hu :rolleyes:

I only broke the mount, the arm is still sitting in a box in the top of my garage.

[Beezil]

a little saurcasm will only get you flamed here hu

no, but spobi will.

and, they're not flames....a little harshness is sometimes levied in the spirit of debate.

[JnJ]

Beez is a prick, no other way for him to come across.