Your opinion please....

The current state of 's public forums is of great concern to me. It bothers me to see the public impression that our public threads are portraying of our organization. The general level of conduct being displayed by a small contingent of people is really beginning to deteriorate the overall mood of the forums and threads. It also appears that the core of Forum Rules are being disregarded and unenforced - the very tools afforded to us aren't being used. I'm not saying there should be a "Police State" type of enforcement, but there seems to be a lack of even the slightest "hand slapping". The unconstructive thread hijacking and blatant disregard for being respectful is at an all time high. This activity seems to have gone way beyond the simple "ignore 'em and it'll go away" solution and I'm thinking that some other avenues need to be looked into.

I have this belief that the majority is actually fed up with all this garbage, but there aren't alot of you voicing your opinions.

I'd really appreciate it if the folks here in the Colorado Chapter would engage in an adult, constructive discussion in this thread and speak your mind on this issue. Keep in mind, I'm not referring to anything occurring in the "Den".

What are your concerns?
What ideas do you have toward resolving the problem?
What would you like to see as an end result?
Do you even see this as a problem?

Answer one or all of these questions, post your own questions/statements. I would like to get an honest feel for what the people here are thinking.

Ultimately, I'd then like to present this thread to the BOD for their consideration.

If the majority doesn't share the same concern that I do, I'll drop the issue completely. No big deal.

Again, Colorado folks only - members and visitors alike.

Here's my contribution toward a solution:

I'd like to see the Forum Rules to be re-vamped a bit.

I think that the strict enforcement of the Forum Rules as they stand could and should be applied to the National open public forums. This would provide a no-nonsense, no confusion sense of order and provide the BOD with an easy task of moderating.

Where the re-vamp comes in: Allow the individual Chapters to adopt their own amendments to the Forum Rules so that the Chapter officials and moderators can tailor their forums to fit the desires and trends of those participating there. Enforcement of the Chapter Forum Rules would be the responsibility of the Chapter officers and if a visitor or member felt that the issue wasn't being resolved through those channels, there would be an appeal process to the National BOD.

The trend that I'm seeing is that there are types of conduct that are accepted in some Chapter forums that are not in others as it is. There doesn't appear to be the flame wars or antagonism occurring in the Chapters to the degree that is being seen in the National forums.

Whaddya think?

My only real complaint iseople who constantly post nothing but smart-ass remarks as replies to threads.Sometimes it is called for and I'm not against some good-natured heckling,but there are some individuals in our forums who seem to do nothing but throw out smart-ass commentary.It just gets real old after a while.Have fun but know when to give it a rest already. :twak: Other than that everything seems ok.I like your idea about individual chapter forum rule control.

I can't say much here. I spend most of my time in the Modified Tech and OEM Tech. I can't really say i've seen much of anything as far as "breaking the rules" goes. I have however heard of certain individuals that have become a problem in their chapter's forum. I do agree that the individual chapters should be allowed to adopt their own rules to enforce as they see fit. Like you said, some chapters have certain behavoir that is expected from individuals and accepted. I belive individual chapter control is the way to go. The only other thing is, every time I stop in the members forum there seems to be some issue with the rules in the Classified forums. I however have not yet been able to detain what exactly the issue is. Can anyone enlighten me?

Troy
I really felt the quality of the boards deteriorated after last year's Moab bash. Right around the time that the Den was formed. Don't know if there is a correlation.

I only use Mod-tech, Non-tech, and member boards along with this one. I lurk a lot, but post little. Maybe a decent FAQ/Tech section (not forum) would alleviate a lot of the typical questions that get asked at least once a month. Those posts could be answered "Search".

I think things are going to hell in a hurry when Woody actually posts about it. Takes a lot to get him pissed off. And it seems as though a few members are more to blame than the rest together.

Maybe it is just part of the growth of . It sure was a lot easier years ago when we all knew each other and could tell somebody to STFU when they deserved it - without some "nanny" reporting the post.

Tom H mentioned a good idea a while ago, allowing non-members a certain amount of posts before having to ante' up and pay for membership. The members of are what make the club as far as I am concerned, the non-members are just "users" and should not be entitled to any rights. I think you and Terry solved that amicably.

Personally I think some "time out" for a few selected members might be best. Ketjar would be first on my list, let him join the band for a few months. It might give him time to get a life, and then he might not be so annoying when he returns.

But afterall, it's only the internet, and we can just ignore what we don't like. I wish a few more members would do the same.

Grant

Grant said:

Tom H mentioned a good idea a while ago, allowing non-members a certain amount of posts before having to ante' up and pay for membership. The members of are what make the club as far as I am concerned, the non-members are just "users" and should not be entitled to any rights. I think you and Terry solved that amicably.

Grant

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I think this is a great idea. Other than being able to post in the member's only forum, us paying members don't have any benefits over the regular users. I enjoy being part of this organization and do not mind paying to help support it. But other than my own reasons, where is the intiative? I think this board has a welth of knowledge. But I also agree with the constant flow of the same questions. I would be all for a Tech Write up forum, both modified and OEM. From the simplest tasks all they way to the most difficult ones. I believe this would answer alot of questions and help alleviate alot of the postings from regular users. Then lock the Tech Forums to members only. If the users can't find what they need in the public writeup section, maybe it would be a push to get them to join. I am not trying to make this sound like a "members only" club. But I think that limiting the options available to the non-paying members would help out alot.

D.J. hit it right on the head.What he said x2.
Jeff

Well I have to agree with DJ on his point. I am fairly new to , but I joined for a reason, to support the website and enjoy the great XJeepers that this organization represents. I agree that there are alot of "freeloaders" if we must call them that, who have no plans of paying to become members, and it seems that they are the one asking the same questions over and over, dont get me wrong, I have posted a stupid question everynow and then. I def. agree that limiting the free post before stepping up to the plate is a great Idea, but we are never gonna gain the confindence of new members if they keep getting dumped on when the ask a legit question, that god for bid was asked a year ago. As for the Current state of , I feel that I am dumber by wasting my time to actually read it. I never really followed it, I mainly use the mod, oem, and the Colorado forums, occasionally take a look in the den. But it seems to me that it is the same few that are causeing all the uproar, over and over. I def. think the rules need some revamping, but have no idea were to even begin.

And yes we in the Colorado forum and every other individual chapter forum should be allowed to adopt some mods for our specific forum .

I will have to agree that some members need to take it easy on bagging the "dumb" questions. Some people are just getting in to this and sometimes it's hard to search for an answer when you really don't even know what your question is. That was always my issue with pirate, if the question had EVER been asked before in the history of the site they would tell you search. It doesn't take long to get discouraged after sifting through 5 pages of people just telling everyone to search. That is why I would opt again for the tech write up forums. I think it would help members to not have to ask the "dumb" questions as often. When I got my first XJ I just lurked on the boards for about a year and read everything I could. Alot of people don't want to take the time to look for it which is the problem. I think the tech forums would put everything in one place to make it easier to find. My biggest issue are the questions that just have no reason to be asked. I think there is a poll in Modified Tech right now with someone asking which black wheels he should buy. Buying something aftermarket does not automatically qualify it as modified tech. It's threads like these that are cluttering the forums. And the ones that I believe should be dealt with more severly than they currently are.

91 Jeep Project said:

I will have to agree that some members need to take it easy on bagging the "dumb" questions. Some people are just getting in to this and sometimes it's hard to search for an answer when you really don't even know what your question is. That was always my issue with pirate, if the question had EVER been asked before in the history of the site they would tell you search. It doesn't take long to get discouraged after sifting through 5 pages of people just telling everyone to search. That is why I would opt again for the tech write up forums. I think it would help members to not have to ask the "dumb" questions as often. When I got my first XJ I just lurked on the boards for about a year and read everything I could. Alot of people don't want to take the time to look for it which is the problem. I think the tech forums would put everything in one place to make it easier to find. My biggest issue are the questions that just have no reason to be asked. I think there is a poll in Modified Tech right now with someone asking which black wheels he should buy. Buying something aftermarket does not automatically qualify it as modified tech. It's threads like these that are cluttering the forums. And the ones that I believe should be dealt with more severly than they currently are.

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Exactly...I was trying to state the same thing DJ, just didnt come out right..I think we are on the right track here...

91 Jeep Project, tech articles are one of my priorities. I bet less than 10% of the members even know they exist. They are hidden in the Members Forum under a sticky.

I hope to work with lots of people to get writeups. Even if you don't have a digital camera, take regular pix and I will get them scanned and host them for you. We have an unbelievable resource of knowlege in the members.

MY opinion,YOU asked,everyone needs to lighten up,this is a jeep board!! The forum NAZI's need to be put in their place ,but at the same time we need to enforce the core rules.Just because you read a thread it doesn't mean you have to comment on it.if you are messing with someone in a thread make sure anyone reading it KNOWS you are messing around or it just stirs up more crap.If it where up to me there would be only 4 boards (+chapter boards)to post on (for sale, tech, non tech,members) we don't need over a dozen! K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Stupid. You don't need a rule for everything it won't solve everything like some people think. I don't want to have to call my lawyer to interpret the bylaws and forum rules. Its a jeep board, this should be a laid back and fun environment lets try to keep it that way.

On a more formal note I WILL NOT put up with the foolishness that is going on else where on these boards. Personal attacks and general idiocy will be deleted!! I am not saying you can't mess with someone in a light hearted manner or push buttons on a friend, but don't bash a new guy cause he comes here and asks how to make his D 35 better. we all started somewhere. And to cover the bases keep your politics and religion to yourself, its a jeep board. If you can not play by these very simple rules you will be TOLD to leave!!

Well that's my .02 I hope I didn't offend anyone(if I did get over it its a jeep board )These are just my general thoughts and not directed as a response to anyone else's response.

Now everyone go work on your jeeps that's an order :cheers:
Led

P.S. don't ever make me type this much again :rattle:

Hey Tom, it's DJ, the kid that showed up to CO Fest without his own Jeep. Also the only one to rival your tent in size.......... :laugh3:

I have seen the tech articles once or twice. But like you said, they are hidden, so alot of people do not know they are there. Also they are only available to members. I think the regular users can benefit from them more than we can. Like I said, the amount of knowledge contained between the members is vast and I think we need to work on getting it out there to everyone. That is why I had the idea of Public write-up forums, so that the non-members will have a specific place to search for answers. I think it should be a locked, no reply forum. So that it can be viewed by the public, but no one has the opportunity to "ruin" a thread. That way the only thing there is the facts on how to do it and not all the crap that usually comes along with it. All the tech articles should be approved by the BOD or some appointed governing body before appearing on the page. I also think the threads should be left indefinitely open for editing. This will give the author the ability to fix any mistakes and alter the article as they see fit. Then lock the Tech Forums to members only. I think this will help keep the forum "clean" of all the pointless threads. I'm not sure if any of this is what Troy is referring to, but it is what I see as the greatest issue right now.

I've gotten a lot of crap about opening the tech forums to the general public. Members want to keep it to themselves, but heck, most don't even know it exists.

Every member can contribute something. How about a simple writeup with pix on how to adjust an NP231 linkage. How many times in the last month have we all seen this? I've been working on a primer on death wobble and how to survive it. Some of the most helpful articles to the masses are the things we as experienced wrenches simply take for granted.

How about a good troubleshoot tree for a no start XJ? I have a personal crusade against blowing money and replacing every sensor on the vehicle to fix a simple dumb problem that could be diagnosed in 5 minutes with a bit of guidance.

Remember, this is a Jeep forum. Wheel more type less.

Grant, I'm right there with ya - great points and observations.

Amen brutha Led! (Gasp - that wasn't too religious was it? :gag: ) :laugh3:

91JeepProject: Thanks for your contribution! Good ideas.

Tom, you've got PM.....

This is great fellas, keep it going!

I guess I'm also of the opinion that the creation of the "Den" led to a general decline in the "manners" of the board. The content and demenor of the Den seems to have bled over into the other forums. I visit there VERY seldom, and don't usually check the member's forum more than once a week. TOO much bickering and whining. It's sad because meeting these guys in person is a joy. Most of them are awesome and would do anything for you.
I agree that there should be a "magic number" where a user has to join to continue to post. It would eliminate the casual trouiblemakers and increase membership as people see the value.
I DON'T agree with opening the tech articles to non-members, however. That's an added value that membership comes with, and should be reserverd for paid members, IMO.
That's my opinion...

-Displaced Colorado chaper member. :wave:

Good discusion.....hope you don't mind if I join in.

I'm having a litle bit of trouble getting a good grasp of exactly why people think the forums are deteriorating to some degree. It seems to me that people on both sides of a couple of issues are both talking about the need for change. Am I the only one who wonders about this?

Some think the mods need to back off and have only limited rules, and some think we should do a much better job of controlling the content and the mods haven't been doing much.

Some think we should be able to post about anything, it's just a Jeep board so don't worry about it. Some think forums should be kept clean and family oriented and forums should have that clean reputation.

I agree that we have a lot of repeated and newbie posts, but usually the newer guys can answer them with the old timers lurking and looking out for bad info. I hate the "do a search" for a legitimate question, at least we can make a positive response and also let them know they can search to get a lot of good info.

I see that many of the old timers are just board posting the same info about Jeeps and so hang out just for fun and sport, which can be detracting in many situations. Maybe we just need to make a friendly challenge to each other sometimes to hold down the BS and stay on topic. A friendly PM can be a good thing......not a nasty PM'd note telling someone they're all f'd up.

The members access question is a good one. The tech articles being available only to members was an attemp to add benefits to members, but I think we've failed in promoting that. It might be a decision that needs to be reversed. One problem we have is the lack of someone to really work on the look of our website.

One thing we can do to improve the situation is to be a good example, and nicely point people in the right direction rather than rude challenges to their posting behavior. People do usually get the point even if they respond with defensiveness.

Two more excelent contributions. Thank you!

BillR, You're always welcome over here! Thanks for your input! I certainly see why there is the belief that the creation of the "Den" may have added to the decline of the forums. However, I have no hesitation in saying that this behavior that carried from the "Den" into the public forums was allowed to happen - by that, I mean that in general, lack of strict, swift moderation fostered the overall impression that the rules would be loosely enforced so it must be ok.

Goatman, I appreciated every word you've posted here and it's well received. I guess my reaction to your contribution is that, in this day and age, your mature, laid back approach is....well, euphoric when applied to moderating our National public forums. Not realistic given the average age of those that tend to be involved in the flame wars and poor behavior. They're cut from a different cloth anymore and hard to reason with. Many are so caught up in hedonistic pursuits that showing respect isn't even a fleeting thought. Everything is "what's in it for me, and it better happen right now." My position here in regards to forum moderation, needs to adopt a direct answer to those kinds of attitudes. Answers like "Behave or you'll see exactly what's in it for you, and it will happen - right now."

The ideals and values you've expressed are excellent ones and I include myself as a supporter of what you've said. The fellas that compromise the WCGIC certainly all share your views - otherwise y'all wouldn't mesh so well.

Ya dig?

Now, I'd like to emphasize again that I'd like to see the majority of the posts here coming from the Colorado folks..... c'mon guys!

Good posts Led, BillR, Goatman, and Troy.

I think Troy's summation of some of the users of the board is spot on. The last thing I want to become is a version of JU, or Pirate for that matter.

is the best source for SPOBI free information about XJ's, and that should continue to be the focus. Yes there may be room for improvement, but some of our problems may be the sheer amount of growth has experienced in the last 4 or 5 years. Controlling the riff raff was easy when we had a hundred members, but with the numbers we now have it is a touch more challenging.

Some of the problem users may actually have very good intentions, but their actions are pissing off a lot of "older" members. Some users are just problems - period.

I think has been in very capable hands the last number of years and I think the new leadership will grow and keep it a place we all like to visit. Maybe some action when the new leadership takes over under the "new broom sweeps clean" philosophy would be appropriate, maybe not. No new rules unless we enforce the existing ones, maybe.

As I said before, it's just the internet - it's not life. Some people should take these forums way less seriously - others should just be a little more mature. Very few need the concrete swimming boots treatment just yet.

JMHO

RESPECT thats the bottom line. Respect others positions and live and let live. Flames have no place on . Its one thing to give your buddies a hard time and give them an elbow every so often, but the right to do that is earned through mutual respect. Without it, it degenerates into bedlam. Led is a prime example. He can dish it out pretty good, but I have never seen him treat anyone without respect, pretty much even if they don't deserve it. Because of that he is respected, not only as a wheeler but as a person.