Finally got a cage

[Kejtar]

It's been custom built by Dan Turner of Loose Nuts Enterprises (http://www.loose-nuts-enterprises.com). The whole cage is fully removeable (legs unbolt).
Anyways's here's the pics of it installed:
http://www.ofoto.com/I.jsp?c=te2xbqn.cgec1zmb&x=0&y=2ndfgb

And I'll get the pics of the build process and it being removed sometime tomorrow.

Btw, I was thinking about using the heater pipe insulation material (soft split tube stuff) to put on the tubes for cushoning. Any other suggestions on that?

[Weasel]

pipe insulation is probably better then nothing but I wouldn't use it, the racing pipe foam is much better, although if a bare noggin hits either hard it's going to hurt.

Oh yeah, looks good, how does it bolt together?

[5150xj]

Looks good Remi,
Does everything still work and is accesable? Like glove box, does rear seat still fold up and down? I notice you had to loose the visors. How about some pictures looking in from the side doors?

[Beezil]

Looks good. Add one or two diagonal tubes in the b-pillar area, behind the front seats. Ya gotta have sideways triangulation to deal with rollover forces. Don't give me any of that "something is better than nothing" shit. just do it.

[Bones]

... just do it.

This message now endorsed by Nike.


Beezil and Tiger pimping for the same company :wierd:

Bones :skull1:

[Kejtar]

Looks good. Add one or two diagonal tubes in the b-pillar area, behind the front seats. Ya gotta have sideways triangulation to deal with rollover forces. Don't give me any of that "something is better than nothing" shit. just do it.

The cage actually will be tied into the roof/body to stiffen things up. I'll have some pictures of that in a few days probably.

[Beezil]

The cage actually will be tied into the roof/body to stiffen things up. I'll have some pictures of that in a few days probably.

thats great. Add diagonals into the b-pillar area.

[Kejtar]

thats great. Add diagonals into the b-pillar area.

OK, moving a bit past "just do it". The halo has an "X" in the middle which stiffens up the top. Also the legs are bolted to the floor and then they will be bolted down into the frame rail from underneath.
During a rollover I don't see the halo budging at all which holds the upper shape and helps spread the impact to the other legs. The fact that the legs will tie into the frame rail (which has 3/16" steel over it and is tied into the rock rails) should prevent them from moving.
Now how would the diagonals work differently? In essence I will have a "construct" which is tied to itself in all points which should prevent it from folding under (into) itself. I could see if I didn't tie the legs into the frame rail or if I didn't have the "X" in the center part of the halo how I would need the diagonals. Or am I overlooking something?

[Lincoln]

OK, moving a bit past "just do it". The halo has an "X" in the middle which stiffens up the top. Also the legs are bolted to the floor and then they will be bolted down into the frame rail from underneath.
During a rollover I don't see the halo budging at all which holds the upper shape and helps spread the impact to the other legs. The fact that the legs will tie into the frame rail (which has 3/16" steel over it and is tied into the rock rails) should prevent them from moving.
Now how would the diagonals work differently? In essence I will have a "construct" which is tied to itself in all points which should prevent it from folding under (into) itself. I could see if I didn't tie the legs into the frame rail or if I didn't have the "X" in the center part of the halo how I would need the diagonals. Or am I overlooking something?

Say it falls on it side. The entire top portion of the cage will try to push the opposite direction. Currently you have 6 verticle tubes that could easly bend and still allow that to happen. If you add the diag to the B pillar it would have to also push the opposite side floor mount sideways to move the halo over. Since yours is a 4-door you won't loose any kind of access by putting it there. Why as why? :D

[Beezil]

OK, moving a bit past "just do it". The halo has an "X" in the middle which stiffens up the top. Also the legs are bolted to the floor and then they will be bolted down into the frame rail from underneath.
During a rollover I don't see the halo budging at all which holds the upper shape and helps spread the impact to the other legs. The fact that the legs will tie into the frame rail (which has 3/16" steel over it and is tied into the rock rails) should prevent them from moving.
Now how would the diagonals work differently? In essence I will have a "construct" which is tied to itself in all points which should prevent it from folding under (into) itself. I could see if I didn't tie the legs into the frame rail or if I didn't have the "X" in the center part of the halo how I would need the diagonals. Or am I overlooking something?

sideways x or /

[vintagespeed]

OK, moving a bit past "just do it". The halo has an "X" in the middle which stiffens up the top. Also the legs are bolted to the floor and then they will be bolted down into the frame rail from underneath.
During a rollover I don't see the halo budging at all which holds the upper shape and helps spread the impact to the other legs. The fact that the legs will tie into the frame rail (which has 3/16" steel over it and is tied into the rock rails) should prevent them from moving.
Now how would the diagonals work differently? In essence I will have a "construct" which is tied to itself in all points which should prevent it from folding under (into) itself. I could see if I didn't tie the legs into the frame rail or if I didn't have the "X" in the center part of the halo how I would need the diagonals. Or am I overlooking something?

Goddam Remi, Beez knows what he's talking about. Get yourself a piece of bread. Remove the center leaving just the crust. Now stand it up & push it sideways.

-jb

[XJoachim]

Yep, without side triangulation this cage will do nothing for you.

[Lincoln]

I think / behind driver and \ on c-pillar is plenty.

Since vintage started the examples.

Take a piece of paper and fold it into a box. Then hold one side and push an opposite side corner. The box will turn into a parallelagram real easy.

Cut a piece of paper to go between opposite corners. Then try again. It has to pull one corner up to move the other sideways.

[Kejtar]

OK, I see where you guys are going with this, but during a rollower I don't see how you can have an impact that nails all three legs in the middle (and not as a whole side/surface contact/impact). The problem I am visualizing though consists of either of the top edges taking the impact (either along the drivers side or passenger side) and changing the square (cross section) into a rombus of sorts but then again the issue I'm looking at is how you'd have to fall to hit the edge as an edge along the whole edge without hitting one end first. Anyways I'll have to think on that one a bit, but it won't happen till tomorrow. It's been one long weekend.

[ECKSJAY]

OK, I see where you guys are going with this, but during a rollower I don't see how you can have an impact that nails all three legs in the middle (and not as a whole side/surface contact/impact). The problem I am visualizing though consists of either of the top edges taking the impact (either along the drivers side or passenger side) and changing the square (cross section) into a rombus of sorts but then again the issue I'm looking at is how you'd have to fall to hit the edge as an edge along the whole edge without hitting one end first. Anyways I'll have to think on that one a bit, but it won't happen till tomorrow. It's been one long weekend.

I agree. Just think of all those dumb engineers who went overboard designing bridges. They used all those / and X beams for no reason. Hell, you could make a couple of bridges out of all the junk they use for ONE!!!

[Lincoln]

The problem I am visualizing though consists of either of the top edges taking the impact (either along the drivers side or passenger side)...

It can happen much easier than you realize.

Roll that box over and look at the preasure points. At some point all of the weight will be on one corner.

I don't agree with all the talk that you have to have the cross braces to have a cage that will hold up. But they are not that much work to put in and in a 4-door they aren't that obtrusive. It's worth the few extra dollars to put in.

[vintagespeed]

Ahh, just leave it out & throw it away when you rollover. :wave:

-jb

[Mike L]

It's been custom built by Dan Turner of Loose Nuts Enterprises (http://www.loose-nuts-enterprises.com). The whole cage is fully removeable (legs unbolt).
Anyways's here's the pics of it installed:
http://www.ofoto.com/I.jsp?c=te2xbqn.cgec1zmb&x=0&y=2ndfgb

And I'll get the pics of the build process and it being removed sometime tomorrow.

Btw, I hope I don't test it with another "bad" tire!

Fixed it for ya. :wave:

-Mike L.

[XJJPR]

Ketchup,

Pool noodles are the only way to go.
Don't listen to Beezil or your rig might be as ugly as his.
Mike L doesn't know what he's talking about, it was "bad" air.


:D

hinkley

[Silverstreak01]

How Much?

[Kejtar]

How Much?

Costs vary depending on what you want to have done. My price was heavily negotiated over some exotic brew :party:

Btw, the adapters (or whatever those gismos are called) that allow for the cage to be removeable run $35 each. 6 were used, that's about $230 with shipping and tax already. Add to that labour, tubing and it can get up there.

[Kejtar]

pipe insulation is probably better then nothing but I wouldn't use it, the racing pipe foam is much better, although if a bare noggin hits either hard it's going to hurt.

Oh yeah, looks good, how does it bolt together?

If you look at pic 6 you will see the black head of a bolt that holds the gismo that allows for it to be removeable. It's a solid piece that bolts together with two bolts and welds into the tubing. Damn things run $35 each!! Also as soon as Dan uploads his pics he'll probably post them and you can see the separate parts and the cage being unbolted and out of the vehicle.

[Kejtar]

Looks good Remi,
Does everything still work and is accesable? Like glove box, does rear seat still fold up and down? I notice you had to loose the visors. How about some pictures looking in from the side doors?

Because it's a newer style body and interior the glove box is not an issue: it doesn't go all the way across in the front and the leg doesn't interfere with it.
There is no interference from the doors but I did loose the ability to move my foot over to the left away from the clutch pedal. Now I have to pull it back when I don't want it sitting on it.

The rear seat can still fold up and down, but I don't have all the seat piece sin to demonstrate it.

The visor is a big thing: I'll have to make soemthing as driving towards rising sun got REALLY bad, but the way the cage sits it does allow to get the halo all the way up towards the front into the headliner.

[Kejtar]

It can happen much easier than you realize.

Roll that box over and look at the preasure points. At some point all of the weight will be on one corner.

Hmm, I still think that the corner pressure is taken care of: might end up building a small mockup model and see what makes it tick :D


I don't agree with all the talk that you have to have the cross braces to have a cage that will hold up. But they are not that much work to put in and in a 4-door they aren't that obtrusive. It's worth the few extra dollars to put in.
I agree: the extra cost if needed should never be avoided, especially when looking at the amount of money we dump into the rigs as it is. In any case the extra brace was not omitted due to cost.

Anyways, I'll see how things go: I might end up adding it in the near future.

[Beezil]

for visors:

check out visors for CJ's.

easy install, you can make them work on almost anything.

[Beezil]

Hmm, I still think that the corner pressure is taken care of: might end up building a small mockup model and see what makes it tick :D



just put in some goddamn triangulation.

a diagonal or x across the b-pillar area is the only way.

nothing is "taken care of' until you do this.

there is no substitute

[Kejtar]

for visors:

check out visors for CJ's.

easy install, you can make them work on almost anything.

Thanks I'll look into them

[XJJPR]

just put in some goddamn triangulation.


there is no substitute


Shear wall works!


hinkley

[Lincoln]

Thanks I'll look into them

You can also weld in a small tab so you can reuse your original visors. YJ's are basically the same as the CJ's too.
http://www.trailquest.com/body-parts/images/78126-09.jpg

[Lincoln]

Shear wall works!


hinkley

I think he won't be invited back. He's awful crabby since his return.

[Lincoln]

Damn things run $35 each!!

Are they the poly performance clamps?

http://www.polyperformance.com/~dave5150/shop/image.php?productid=66

[Beezil]

Are they the poly performance clamps?

http://www.polyperformance.com/~dave5150/shop/image.php?productid=66

the only clamps worth using are SCUD-proof.

http://www.performanceutilityvehicles.com/puvclamp1.jpg

[Lincoln]

the only clamps worth using are SCUD-proof.

http://www.performanceutilityvehicles.com/puvclamp1.jpg

I gots to have me some of those. Super sweetness. Though they aren't scheduled to ship until 2010.

[Kejtar]

Are they the poly performance clamps?

http://www.polyperformance.com/~dave5150/shop/image.php?productid=66

Different company, but I think they might be identical. I don't remember the numbers but the clamp is rated a lot higher then the tubing when it comes to strength.

[MaXJohnson]

I gots to have me some of those. Super sweetness. Though they aren't scheduled to ship until 2010.

Make sure to specifiy the black oxide finish for the ultimate in rust prevention.

NOTE: "Black oxide is currently on back order due to vendor problems. Should be available by year-end"

[Lincoln]

Make sure to specifiy the black oxide finish for the ultimate in rust prevention.

NOTE: "Black oxide is currently on back order due to vendor problems. Should be available by year-end"

My order was declined.

[Fergie]

Didn't want the super-secret design being stolen by haters.

Fergie

[Weasel]

Someone else makes pretty much the same clamp as the one showen above. They have lots of bolt on cages for TJ, ect, can't remember the name.

[Big Red]

Someone else makes pretty much the same clamp as the one showen above. They have lots of bolt on cages for TJ, ect, can't remember the name.

???Rockhard4x4.com??? They have a bolt in XJ cage as well as TJ, YJ, CJ. They use clamps similar to the ones you guys are posting pics of.

http://www.rockhard4x4parts.com/cherokeexj.htm

What do you guys think of their cage? Any good? Enough strength?
Troy

[Kejtar]

???Rockhard4x4.com??? They have a bolt in XJ cage as well as TJ, YJ, CJ. They use clamps similar to the ones you guys are posting pics of.

actually those clamps are way different, plus that weird front leg support is kind of scary

[Weasel]

yeah thats the place and they look exactly like the ones above(beezils post) but don't have the PUV on them.

[JnJ]

You wont find the ones with "PUV" on them, they are imaginary.

[xjrugger]

how can those front legs be any good??? plus there's no dash bar, no triangulation and no spreaders above the head. i would never buy the rock hard bolt on cage. my 2 cents

[Beezil]

how can those front legs be any good??? plus there's no dash bar, no triangulation and no spreaders above the head. i would never buy the rock hard bolt on cage. my 2 cents

Okay, where is spongebob square pants when yo need some reinforcement?????



http://www.rockhard4x4parts.com/images/dsc02056.jpg

[Lawn Cher']

That seems hokey to me.

[Fergie]

Okay, where is spongebob square pants when yo need some reinforcement?????



http://www.rockhard4x4parts.com/images/dsc02056.jpg
I'd get it so I can open my glovebox.

Fergie

[Ludakris]

It looks more like a "show" cage than a "roll" cage. If that thing was on its roof, the bars would all try to push out against the body. if the body wasnt there is would squash like a pancake. all that X is going to do is push out each leg equally.. a slow roll would do some nice work to the structure of the unibody....
But it does "look" kind of purty...
I just dont understand "bolt" in bars...

[Captain Ron]

...

Take a piece of paper and fold it into a box. Then hold one side and push an opposite side corner. The box will turn into a parallelagram real easy.

Cut a piece of paper to go between opposite corners. Then try again. It has to pull one corner up to move the other sideways.Just FYI...

"Shear Plane"

--ron

[Lincoln]

Just FYI...

"Shear Plane"

--ron

That would have taken too much thought. :D

[rokbrkr]

The cage looks like it fits real good, but definatly needs more triangulation for latteral presure, if your not willing to do that, then at least add some gussets to the joints to help.

I'm afraid if you don't do this, then you have only added minimal protection to your XJ and yourself.
A wise man once told me:
The difference between GOOD, and PERFECT is about 15 minuttes!!!!

[XJJPR]

OMG, I finally looked at the pictures:

First, Beezil is right finally about a cage, that needs WAY MORE triangulation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Second, Are those xmas lights around the seats????????????????????????????????????????????? ? OMG, I hope not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


hinkley

[Roxtar]

All the triangulation and gussetting you guys keep asking for would leave no afro room.

[Kejtar]

Second, Are those xmas lights around the seats????????????????????????????????????????????? ? OMG, I hope not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nope, it's white material that is part of the seat cover. For some reason it reflects flash real well.

[Ronbo]

It looks more like a "show" cage than a "roll" cage. If that thing was on its roof, the bars would all try to push out against the body. if the body wasnt there is would squash like a pancake. all that X is going to do is push out each leg equally.. a slow roll would do some nice work to the structure of the unibody....
But it does "look" kind of purty...
I just dont understand "bolt" in bars...



How do you know all that?

[tcm glx]

Looks good.

[Ludakris]

How do you know all that?

I'm on the internet, I know everything....

Oh, and I have taken a few fabrication classes... Not a sermon, just a thought.

[Kejtar]

I'm on the internet, I know everything....

Oh, and I have taken a few fabrication classes... Not a sermon, just a thought.

Hmmm have you been in a roll? have you seen what a rolled jeep looks like? After I rolled mine I was surprised as to what bent and folded and what didn't.

[Ludakris]

Hmmm have you been in a roll? have you seen what a rolled jeep looks like? After I rolled mine I was surprised as to what bent and folded and what didn't.

Not in an XJ. I am just trying to say that if I go to the trouble of putting a cage in my xj, it will address any concerns I may have. Depending on the roll, many forces may or may not happen. I made the comment, because on all of those down tubes, there is a bend that contours with the body. With nothing bracing that bar, the bend has the possibility of becoming a "hinge".. with enough force on it... I understand the unibody can take a good deal of stress, but I would rather know that the roll bar could hold up without any help from the body. throw some cross braces/ triangulation and give up some comfort..

[MMIXJ]

can you post a couple of images here or get someone to host them for you?
i don't want to join yet another website just to look at pix, but now w/ all of these replies my curiosity is building...
(even if they are the same replies to every other cage thread!)

;)

[Kejtar]

can you post a couple of images here or get someone to host them for you?
i don't want to join yet another website just to look at pix, but now w/ all of these replies my curiosity is building...
(even if they are the same replies to every other cage thread!)

;)
there should be an option on teh bottom to view without signing up.

[Kejtar]

Not in an XJ. I am just trying to say that if I go to the trouble of putting a cage in my xj, it will address any concerns I may have. Depending on the roll, many forces may or may not happen. I made the comment, because on all of those down tubes, there is a bend that contours with the body. With nothing bracing that bar, the bend has the possibility of becoming a "hinge".. with enough force on it... I understand the unibody can take a good deal of stress, but I would rather know that the roll bar could hold up without any help from the body. throw some cross braces/ triangulation and give up some comfort..

Yes, you make a good point. But there are as few bends as possible on the legs to prevent that. The bends go in different directions in relation to each other to again coutneract the "hinge" effect.
Yes it could have a lot more triangulation, yes it could have a lot of things but at which point you say enough? I will probably add more to this cage with time, but at this point I'm probably done for a while (with the exception of potentially adding that crossbar behind the front seats). I've looked at some of the cages on competition rigs that they have and the form and design varies widely.

[ryurabbit]

This cage should work fairly well with the exception of crossbracing. The tubing is .120 wall and is very strong. The triangulation is nessesary if you plan to fly accross the desert at 45 or more and suddenly make a left turn but if you are just flopping over it will save the sheet metal from crushing in and making it impossible to repair. This cage is still in the prototype stage and remi is not done with it. He knows the design strengths and weaknesses and talk of bracing was touched upon. This is not the first cage of this type built and they have already held up to one rollover. I am putting one of these cages in my jeep and plan to do some crossbracing but then I'm the idiot to fly accross the desert and make a left turn!!!!

[Roxtar]

This cage should work fairly well with the exception of crossbracing. The tubing is .120 wall and is very strong. The triangulation is nessesary if you plan to fly accross the desert at 45 or more and suddenly make a left turn but if you are just flopping over it will save the sheet metal from crushing in and making it impossible to repair. This cage is still in the prototype stage and remi is not done with it. He knows the design strengths and weaknesses and talk of bracing was touched upon. This is not the first cage of this type built and they have already held up to one rollover. I am putting one of these cages in my jeep and plan to do some crossbracing but then I'm the idiot to fly accross the desert and make a left turn!!!!How much to 46307?

[XJoachim]

... if you are just flopping over it will save the sheet metal from crushing in and making it impossible to repair.
A question from me, if you're looking to protect the sheetmetal why didn't you do an exo? A roll would still do real bad things to your sheet metal with an internal cage, i would say more with an internal than without.

If you do a cage do it right or stay away from it because you know then that nothing than the sheet metal is protecting you. A cage, even if it's done not right, tells you that you're safer than without and that's not true.

Do it right or don't do it, it's the same story with suspension and other things. The only difference is you will kill yourself with an improper cage, not anyone else. Triangulation is the key to stability, no triangulation - no real cage. :lecture:

[Beezil]

Triangulation is the key to stability, no triangulation - no real cage.

fuggin-eh

[XJBill]

Okay, where is spongebob square pants when yo need some reinforcement?????



http://www.rockhard4x4parts.com/images/dsc02056.jpg

What the hell is that abortion????? That ain't holding nothing in a rollover. You should've went through the dash instead of around it like that.....

[Beezil]

What the hell is that abortion????? That ain't holding nothing in a rollover. You should've went through the dash in stead.....


whats the problem with it? Every XJ could use a knee-opener.

[Kejtar]

What the hell is that abortion????? That ain't holding nothing in a rollover. You should've went through the dash instead of around it like that.....
Hey... I'm with you on that one... Btw this isn't my cage, this is a pic of a different one someone posted a link to.

[XJBill]

Hey... I'm with you on that one... Btw this isn't my cage, this is a pic of a different one someone posted a link to.

I know. Your's stays solid down the front of the dash. Alot stronger than the pic I was commenting on...

[ChuckD]

Do it right or don't do it, it's the same story with suspension and other things. The only difference is you will kill yourself with an improper cage, not anyone else. Triangulation is the key to stability, no triangulation - no real cage. :lecture:


From the guy who bought Rusty's long arm kit and wheelled it with a front D60 and huge tires.

So I guess your saying you had no real suspension. :D

[Kejtar]

From the guy who bought Rusty's long arm kit and wheelled it with a front D60 and huge tires.

So I guess your saying you had no real suspension. :D

ROTFLMAO

[Lore5]

ROTFLMAO

ROTFLMAO what???????

[Beezil]

What the hell is that abortion????? That ain't holding nothing in a rollover. You should've went through the dash instead of around it like that.....


XJBill, all you need to do is throw on the spongebob reinforcement kit.

99-percent ready to ship.

http://www.quartersawn.net/images/bracket-redo.jpg

[XJBill]

Well there you go! I'll take two. :laugh3:

[XJBill]

From the guy who bought Rusty's long arm kit and wheelled it with a front D60 and huge tires.

So I guess your saying you had no real suspension. :D

Nice! :roflmao:

[vintagespeed]

Oh man, this thread was so good I just had to look at those pics again. I hope you didn't pay for a C pillar cause I think it's missing. The good news is that your speakers should be well protected in a rollover.

"The bends go in different directions in relation to each other to again coutneract the "hinge" effect."

- this just adds multiple points of failure. Any time you bend tubing you weaken the outer side of the bend, it's called stretching.

As for racing across the desert at 45mph......for me this would be the normal speed (when I actually make it out of the garage). And I think any cage, or suspension for that matter (hehe), should be able to handle twice that.

Last thing I'd like to say to anyone putting a cage in a daily driver is, know that you're removing the built-in safety zones the factory installed to save you in a collision and replacing them with a big piece of tubing for you to comatose yourself on. Rollcages are typically used in racecars with helmets to absorb the cranial impact, not in daily drivers. :chef:

-jb

[Kejtar]

I hope you didn't pay for a C pillar cause I think it's missing.
damn..... it was there the night before :eek:

"The bends go in different directions in relation to each other to again coutneract the "hinge" effect."
- this just adds multiple points of failure. Any time you bend tubing you weaken the outer side of the bend, it's called stretching.

Wel. maybe I wasn't clear about it, but the different directions that I am referring to, are in relation to each other on the different legs. The bends on the front leg are going out rearward, the bends on the B pilar go out sideways and the rear leg is a slight bend forward. This means that during an impact each one of them would have to bend in a different direction. This is done so that they work against each other and so that tjeu prevent the top from collapsing.


Last thing I'd like to say to anyone putting a cage in a daily driver
what makes you think it's a daily driver? Cause it's not. I drive it to work maybe once a month and sometimes on the weekend.

[Beezil]

"The bends go in different directions in relation to each other to again coutneract the "hinge" effect."

- this just adds multiple points of failure. Any time you bend tubing you weaken the outer side of the bend, it's called stretching.

as far as I'm concerned, bends in different planes doesn't do JACK SHIT to counteract any "hinge" effect. If someone cannot imagine how the dynamics of a diagonal or x brace in the b-pillar area GREATLY improves the strength of a cage in a sidways rollover, and would rather offer lame counter-theories as to why its not necessary, at that point its probably best just to stop offering advice. Don't waste your tech-typing time

[vintagespeed]

as far as I'm concerned, bends in different planes doesn't do JACK SHIT to counteract any "hinge" effect. If someone cannot imagine how the dynamics of a diagonal or x brace in the b-pillar area GREATLY improves the strength of a cage in a sidways rollover, and would rather offer lame counter-theories as to why its not necessary, at that point its probably best just to stop offering advice. Don't waste your tech-typing time

I was bored and it's Christmas.

-jb

[XJoachim]

From the guy who bought Rusty's long arm kit and wheelled it with a front D60 and huge tires.

So I guess your saying you had no real suspension. :D
:mad: Well, sometimes you learn it the hard way that some manufacturers offer parts that are not that "bombproof" as they advertise it. Since then i build my own control arms and i managed to make the single upper connecting arm work. :cool:

Earlier i made my own track bar (running 35s with the D30) because i Z-shaped Rustys crap and i will never buy anything of his junk nor would i sell it to others. It's a process of learning whose work you can trust and who builds real beefy parts.

But this has nothing to do with such an obvious thing as missing triangulation on a roll cage. There you look at it and see what's wrong the first time. Can you look at my suspension and tell me what's the weak point and prove it?

[Roxtar]

Last thing I'd like to say to anyone putting a cage in a daily driver is, know that you're removing the built-in safety zones the factory installed to save you in a collision and replacing them with a big piece of tubing for you to comatose yourself on. Rollcages are typically used in racecars with helmets to absorb the cranial impact, not in daily drivers. :chef:

-jbExcuse me?
As a person currently putting a cage in his DD I'd like to ask what safety zones I'm removing? Air bags? Seat belts? Doors? All still there.
The fact that I drive mine to and from the trails doesn't mean I want it any less safe while on them.

[Kejtar]

Excuse me?
As a person currently putting a cage in his DD I'd like to ask what safety zones I'm removing? Air bags? Seat belts? Doors? All still there.
The fact that I drive mine to and from the trails doesn't mean I want it any less safe while on them.
I would guess he's refering to an "open/empty" area that one of your body parts could choose to go through during and impact (and since he's talking about DD I'd guess it'd be a high speed impact).

[XJJPR]

I was bored and it's Christmas.

-jb


JB the spewer of christmas BS!!!!!!!!!!!!


hinkley

[ChuckD]

:mad: Well, sometimes you learn it the hard way that some manufacturers offer parts that are not that "bombproof" as they advertise it. Since then i build my own control arms and i managed to make the single upper connecting arm work. :cool:

Earlier i made my own track bar (running 35s with the D30) because i Z-shaped Rustys crap and i will never buy anything of his junk nor would i sell it to others. It's a process of learning whose work you can trust and who builds real beefy parts.

But this has nothing to do with such an obvious thing as missing triangulation on a roll cage. There you look at it and see what's wrong the first time. Can you look at my suspension and tell me what's the weak point and prove it?


I knew you learned your leason as did I. You just left yourself open for an easy jab. ;)

[C-ROK]

Any time you bend tubing you weaken the outer side of the bend, it's called stretching.

As for racing across the desert at 45mph......for me this would be the normal speed (when I actually make it out of the garage). And I think any cage, or suspension for that matter (hehe), should be able to handle twice that.

Last thing I'd like to say to anyone putting a cage in a daily driver is, know that you're removing the built-in safety zones the factory installed to save you in a collision and replacing them with a big piece of tubing for you to comatose yourself on. Rollcages are typically used in racecars with helmets to absorb the cranial impact, not in daily drivers. :chef:

-jb

Jim, I don't think I agree with much here.
Yes the tubing does stretch in the bend and the wall thickness is reduced at the bends, BUT the metal is being cold worked as it's drawn through the bender and stretched. The cold working increases the material strength properties of the steel making the bends the stronger points of the cage.
This cold working is exactly the reason, and the only reason, that DOM is stronger then EWS. The metalurgical properties of the two metals are identical. It is only the cold working process that is done on the DOM as it's drawn through the mandrel, that increases it's material strength properties.
And the increase in strength is significant too. DOM has a tensile strength of 70,000 psi compared to 55,000 psi for CREW. HREW is lower still since it's formed hot.

I'm really not sure where you got info on the whole "removing safety zones" stuff. I know I don't "know" anything about it but what I do know is that automobile manufacturers try to create "survival zones" in the occupant compartment. This is effectively the same survival zone that cages placed in race cars are trying to create. I don't see why the cages we put in our Jeeps would function any differently. And certainly not to the point of actually diminishing the effectiveness of the zone.

Lastly, yes cages should be triangulated for lateral rigidity but no, they don't automatically collapse because they're not. I know because I've personally rolled over 5 separate times in my own vehicles with un-triangulated cages. Our competition vehicle we competed with in ARCA 2000 was equipped with a frame tied in un-triangulated cage and we rolled it 6 times that year. 6 times. Same cage. Competiton rolls. Not one injury. Not one cage collapse.
I've also witnessed several more un-triangulated cage rolls and have seen still several other 'post roll' un-triangulated cages.

To the people that are claiming this cage will collapse in a roll, I would be very anxious to hear your first hand accounts and hopefully see some pictures of similar cages that have failed. Have you really seen this happen? Do you really know it will?
I've seen the aftermath of some pretty amazing rolls on un-triangulated cages and I've never seen one fail to the degrees you're speaking off. I've seen them canted off to one side several degrees (and effectively ruined) but they still maintained a 'survival zone' during the rollover.

This is such a shades of gray arguement. It's not black and white.

I'm not debating the benefits of triangulation. It is better with it. It is "right" with it. Similarily though, it is not "wrong" without it, it is just not as strong and not everything it could be.

Undeniabley Remi's cage will improve the survivability and occupant protection capacity of his Jeep. It is better with it, and signifcantly better at that, then with out it.
It would be better still to add a B pillar X, or B Chevrons (upward or downward) or a single \ across the Bs. If you really don't want to compromise the space, then the next best thing would be to gusset the B joints, or all the joints for that matter.
If you really can't tolerate that, then you still have a nice cage that has improved the occupant safety of your vehicle.

Someone, somewhere in this thread mentioned how buildings have X bracing for lateral rigidity. This is true. But buildings can also be built without them in what is a called a "zero moment structure". A zero moment structure uses fully welded connections rather than bolted or riveted.
Fully welded, just like our cages.
With a fully welded structure you do get lateral rigidity of the structure since the welded joints do not allow movement. Metal has to fail in order for them to move.

Boy oh boy do these "Check out my new cage" threads ever get carried away here.

Nice cage Remi.

[Beezil]

Jim, I don't think I agree with much here.
Yes the tubing does stretch in the bend and the wall thickness is reduced at the bends, BUT the metal is being cold worked as it's drawn through the bender and stretched. The cold working increases the material strength properties of the steel making the bends the stronger points of the cage.
This cold working is exactly the reason, and the only reason, that DOM is stronger then EWS. The metalurgical properties of the two metals are identical. It is only the cold working process that is done on the DOM as it's drawn through the mandrel, that increases it's material strength properties.
And the increase in strength is significant too. DOM has a tensile strength of 70,000 psi compared to 55,000 psi for CREW. HREW is lower still since it's formed hot.

I'm really not sure where you got info on the whole "removing safety zones" stuff. I know I don't "know" anything about it but what I do know is that automobile manufacturers try to create "survival zones" in the occupant compartment. This is effectively the same survival zone that cages placed in race cars are trying to create. I don't see why the cages we put in our Jeeps would function any differently. And certainly not to the point of actually diminishing the effectiveness of the zone.

Lastly, yes cages should be triangulated for lateral rigidity but no, they don't automatically collapse because they're not. I know because I've personally rolled over 5 separate times in my own vehicles with un-triangulated cages. Our competition vehicle we competed with in ARCA 2000 was equipped with a frame tied in un-triangulated cage and we rolled it 6 times that year. 6 times. Same cage. Competiton rolls. Not one injury. Not one cage collapse.
I've also witnessed several more un-triangulated cage rolls and have seen still several other 'post roll' un-triangulated cages.

To the people that are claiming this cage will collapse in a roll, I would be very anxious to hear your first hand accounts and hopefully see some pictures of similar cages that have failed. Have you really seen this happen? Do you really know it will?
I've seen the aftermath of some pretty amazing rolls on un-triangulated cages and I've never seen one fail to the degrees you're speaking off. I've seen them canted off to one side several degrees (and effectively ruined) but they still maintained a 'survival zone' during the rollover.

This is such a shades of gray arguement. It's not black and white.

I'm not debating the benefits of triangulation. It is better with it. It is "right" with it. Similarily though, it is not "wrong" without it, it is just not as strong and not everything it could be.

Undeniabley Remi's cage will improve the survivability and occupant protection capacity of his Jeep. It is better with it, and signifcantly better at that, then with out it.
It would be better still to add a B pillar X, or B Chevrons (upward or downward) or a single \ across the Bs. If you really don't want to compromise the space, then the next best thing would be to gusset the B joints, or all the joints for that matter.
If you really can't tolerate that, then you still have a nice cage that has improved the occupant safety of your vehicle.

Someone, somewhere in this thread mentioned how buildings have X bracing for lateral rigidity. This is true. But buildings can also be built without them in what is a called a "zero moment structure". A zero moment structure uses fully welded connections rather than bolted or riveted.
Fully welded, just like our cages.
With a fully welded structure you do get lateral rigidity of the structure since the welded joints do not allow movement. Metal has to fail in order for them to move.

Boy oh boy do these "Check out my new cage" threads ever get carried away here.

Nice cage Remi.
I don't think anyone said that his cage would automatically collapse upon a rollover, but those who understand fabrication, materials and geometery know what an enormous improvement triangulation makes.

I've rolled on my cage HARD three times. My cage hasn't moved a hair. I designed and built a cage that I wouldn't have to repair after a rollover. Kejtars cage will most likely save his life during a moderate rollover. UNCAGED Xj's do a fairly decent job on thier own (i know)

All I am saying is, that it doesn't take much more effort to weld in one more stinkin' pc of tubing to make a MARKED IMPROVMENT on the cage as a whole.

Kejtar was able to attract a combined hundred or so years of design, fabrication, wheeling and experience and acumen with his post. A few pretty dammned experienced jeepers responded that the cage would be better off with a couple tubes added in. Kejtar would rather deny the suggestions by offering thin and misunderstood theories on why he doesn't need to bother.

sounds good to me.

[jjmat3]

"Boy oh boy do these "Check out my new cage" threads ever get carried away here."

BUt they are a great way to learn from folks that have "been there, done that". I am getting ready to start a D&C cage in my XJ and I love reading about this topic. I Will add some additional bracing to my cage just to be safe. Thanks to you "old" XJ guys for helping me learn.

[OT]

A zero moment structure uses fully welded connections rather than bolted or riveted.
Fully welded, just like our cages.
With a fully welded structure you do get lateral rigidity of the structure since the welded joints do not allow movement. Metal has to fail in order for them to move.
You're right on, Greg.

However, Remi's cage doesn't fit this desription, being bolted together in places. His needs all the structual help it can get to make up for the bolted together sections.

[C-ROK]

Beezil:
"I don't think anyone said that his cage would automatically collapse upon a rollover"

Well, it actually wasn't you I was referring to. I'm pretty certain of your knowledge of both fabbing and Jeeping.

But there were some that suggested the cage would not hold up in a roll.

"Yep, without side triangulation this cage will do nothing for you."
"if the body wasnt there is would squash like a pancake"

"nothing" and "squash like a pancake" - pretty ominous, matter of fact view points. I was contesting those point more than yours.

I can't speak for Remi. I don't know what he's looking for in a cage. I don't know if he's done with this one or not.
I know he now knows, if he didn't before, that this cage would benefit greatly from some triangulation. More than anything I wanted to try and dismiss some of the more ominous predictions of this cage's 'worthlessness'.
This cage isn't 'worthless'. I think it's actually a damn nice and well fabricated cage. It could certainly benefit from triangulation. I don't disagree with that at all.

It's always touchy entering into a "cage" thread. It's not at all my intention to try and dismiss the valuable input that some very experienced people have brought to this thread. I don't think I've done that. To the contrary, I think I agreed with it.
What I didn't agree with is only what I specifically addressed. Nothing more, nothing less.
This cage makes his Jeep better than without.
This cage could be better still.
Because this cage is not "as good as it could be" does not make it worthless or ineffective.
I'm not as good as I can be. I'm not worthless.

Am I? :dunno:

[TLange]

I've witnessed four roll-overs, three XJ's and one ZJ. All without cages. Of these, one XJ and the ZJ were hard end over end's, the other two were side overs. What I have seen in all cases is the A Pillars coming in on the front seat occupants. There was always damage in the B pillar area but nothing significant. The rear passangers still had plenty of room to flop around. Two drivers had injuries from the A pillars coming in on them. Of coarse, the more triangulation that you have the better. However, in my opinion the A pillar often gets over looked as an area of concern.

I installed a cage for two reasons and in this order: To stiffen up the chassis and to protect me. I used a DC Extreme cage because it came with a dash board bar that ties the two A pillars together and a "seat belt" bar that ties in the two B pillars. Although a seat belt bar is not as good as full triangulation it is good enough my purpose. I don't need a NASCAR cage, my Jeep won't go 170 MPH. If I ever expect to have little or no damage after a roll-over I'll add an exo cage and ties that into the internal cage. I did add a C pillar hoop to the DC cage (btw, big problem with DC about the C pillar) and gussets in many places.

In case you're wondering how I used this cage to stiffen the chassis; I laid down 1x3 heavy rectangular tubing on top and across the floor in the A and B pillar areas and a kind of double H pattern cross section welded together on the rear cargo floor. All welded to the cage. These cross sections are bolted directly through the uniframe flange and floor with large backing plates. I set up the D pillar area of the cage so I can unbolt the entire thing from the floor at all places and slide the cage back out of the hatch about 10" if I need to work behind the dash for any reason. I even used stainless steel nuts and bolts so they won't rust. My XJ now feel more solid then my ZJ did, it made a big difference.

[biscuitboy87]

imho...squeek!
i have been reading this post.
many views, many solutions.
NICE CAGE...
collapse from a rollover??? no. not unless you rolled off a cliff, but then your worries would be greater, and for other reasons.
i say have fun, enjoy, and IF you roll take pic.s so the naysayers can see exactly what happened and why...

[Jes]

The visor is a big thing: I'll have to make soemthing as driving towards rising sun got REALLY bad, but the way the cage sits it does allow to get the halo all the way up towards the front into the headliner.

What I did on mine so I could use the stock sun visors...
http://www.fototime.com/{0BE25127-F351-4757-81F0-3B75EBC64E75}/picture.JPG
...easy and costs nothing.

[OT]

Mine still fit.

http://www.savepic.com/freepicturehosting/is.php?i=309486&img=HPIM0906.jpg

http://www.savepic.com/freepicturehosting/is.php?i=309487&img=HPIM0907.jpg

[Jes]

That visor has seen better days.

[karstic]

Terry did you cut the glove box door so you can still open it?

[OT]

That visor has seen better days
I had to cut them off where they bend. Maybe I should take care of those loose ends.
Terry did you cut the glove box door so you can still open it?
Affirmative. It shoulda been made that way from the factory.

[C-ROK]

What I did on mine so I could use the stock sun visors...
http://www.fototime.com/{0BE25127-F351-4757-81F0-3B75EBC64E75}/picture.JPG
...easy and costs nothing.

And Brilliant! I might add too.

Also helps drop the visor down a little lower. Remi could maybe even take the phone books off the seat and still get some shade. :laugh3:

[lesslimited]

I had to cut them off where they bend. Maybe I should take care of those loose ends.


Duct tape is your friend

[jjmat3]

"I'm not as good as I can be. I'm not worthless.
Am I? " C-Rok

Heck no you are not worthless, you made me a great rear bumper!


Jes, Love the visor mount. That is exactly the type of thing that makes these threads so great, I keep learning new tricks to try.
The cutting of the glove box door is another cool trick. These reasons are why I had No problem paying a membership for this site, totally worth it many times over. Keep the goods coming!

[vintagespeed]

Excuse me?
As a person currently putting a cage in his DD I'd like to ask what safety zones I'm removing? Air bags? Seat belts? Doors? All still there.
The fact that I drive mine to and from the trails doesn't mean I want it any less safe while on them.

Then you're a tard. The manufacturers make vehicle roofs, seatbelts and seats to give enough to save your knucklehead in an accident or rollover. By putting bars all the way around your head, when your seatbelt gives.....POOF....instant lobatomy. Although in this case, probably not much of a loss. :kissyou:

-jb

[vintagespeed]

Jim, I don't think I agree with much here.
Yes the tubing does stretch in the bend and the wall thickness is reduced at the bends, BUT the metal is being cold worked as it's drawn through the bender and stretched. The cold working increases the material strength properties of the steel making the bends the stronger points of the cage.
This cold working is exactly the reason, and the only reason, that DOM is stronger then EWS.

Greg, you're far more the fabricator than I am but comparing DOM to a bent piece of HREW is kind of silly. When the tubing is 'formed' around the bend, the inner side of the bend is compressed and thickened, the outside of the bend is thinned (ala stretched) leaving a weaker portion of the tubing. Thems just the facts.

This is effectively the same survival zone that cages placed in race cars are trying to create. I don't see why the cages we put in our Jeeps would function any differently. And certainly not to the point of actually diminishing the effectiveness of the zone.

Seatbelts are designed to "give" in an accident so that your body isn't destroyed or cut in half. When your belt "gives" your head is banging that upper hoop. End of story. And at 55mph, the tube wins. Racecar drivers wear helmets for this reason, now if Remi's gonna strap on a mellon lid when he drives it, all good.

To the people that are claiming this cage will collapse in a roll, I would be very anxious to hear your first hand accounts and hopefully see some pictures of similar cages that have failed.

Never said it wouldn't work, just that it would be much better with more work. The part that bunches our panties is that Remi denies the facts of triangulation.

Love ya Greg but I think you need another beer. :beer:

-jb

[Goatman]

I gotta agree with Greg. Most XJ's (not all, most) have held up well in pretty good rollovers, many of us have seen pics and/or had personal experinces with this. So, as far as keeping the roof from colapsing in on the occupants it doesn't take much of a cage to add a good deal to the existing stock structure. So, I strongly disagree with those who criticize this cage as being inadequate.

The comments about good general cage design are well founded, but it should be factored in that this isn't an open top rig that's supported only by the cage. In an XJ the stock structure does play a part, even a major part, in protecting the occupants in a rollover. With a strictly internal cage there's still going to be body damage in a roll, so I think there needs to be a balance between safety for the occupants and maintaining the basic integrity of the body. Too many, and poorly placed, roll bar tubes on the inside can add a new danger of bodily injury, potentially more serious than a partial collapse of the roof.

There are varying levels of protection that are goals for building a cage, and I think all of them are valid. It would be a good thing if those with comments would include which level of protection they are referring to. Really, a simple A and B hoop tied together could realistically provide a very good improvement in protection from the roof collapsing. If the goal is to preserve the integrity of the body and chassis, with only some basic body work needed after a roll, then that's going to another level of protection. If being able to roll almost at will on the trail is the goal, with virtually no damage to the rig, then that is another level of protection. If the goal is to equally add protection and chassis rigidity, then that is another factor in the design.

To me, it's nearly impossible to talk about XJ cages without knowing the goals of the one who's cage is being critiqued, or be just having a general discussion of XJ cage design.

[XJBill]

The cage will be fine. It's not like it's a drag car. Everything we do is in 4 low and 1st or 2nd gear so I don't see a problem with it if he left it the way it is. Obviously you numbnuts that don't think so have never seen a stock Wrangler cage. NO triangulation there and thats the ONLY support in a rollover! His will have the existing metal roof structure PLUS the added internal cage.


When I get my cage done, I'll be sure to post pics on hear.... :rolleyes:

[OT]

When I get my cage done, I'll be sure to post pics on here....
Well, that's a good idea if you aren't into opinions and experience.

[C-ROK]

comparing DOM to a bent piece of HREW is kind of silly. When the tubing is 'formed' around the bend, the inner side of the bend is compressed and thickened, the outside of the bend is thinned (ala stretched) leaving a weaker portion of the tubing. Thems just the facts.


The comparison to DOM and bent tube is entirely valid. DOM gains 100% of it's strength (over that of CREW) due to the cold working of the mandrel forming. This is very similar to the cold working the metal experiences in a bender. Aside from that, my comparison was to contest the wall thinning as weakening when it is a fairly well accepted fact that the bends are actually stronger.
And the inside edge of the tube does not thicken. It is also stretched. The arc length of a bent tube is always longer than the straight length it took to create it. Even the very inside edge of the bend.

I really don't debate that there are things that could be done to improve the cage. I just wanted to try and level things back out and temper, what appeared to me, to be some fairly exaggerated claims regarding the effectiveness of this cage.


I picked on you because I know you.


I know Beez too but if I picked on him he'd hunt me down and kick my ass like I was an urban Chicago squirrel.

[Goatman]

Well, that's a good idea if you aren't into opinions and experience.


Sensitive......are we? :) Can dish it out but can't take the sarcasm?


I think it's fairly obvious that subjecting yourself to some of the opinions and experience in this thread leaves you open to some critiquing that some may not wish to endure. While there was much good information in this thread, there was also some senseless criticism.

[Hammertoe]

Goatman made some excellent points and XJBill mentioned a stock Wrangler
cage. I had a Wrangler at my place which I bought for parts which did a
45mph end-over thru gaurd rails by a sleeping driver. Heavy nose damage,
crushed windshield frame & horizontal roll bar connection on pass side, alot
of tub damage from the force of it landing on the cage, spare tire carrier
ripped off, soft top in pcs..............driver walked away with some nicks &
bruises. (Seat-belt)

About 8 months later, a fella I knew stopped by with a friend....the friend
pointed at the red YJ & said.....Hey, thats my Jeep....after a good laugh and
finding out exactly what happened 1st hand, I asked him to remove the
"empty's" that were still in it. HeHeeHee

In a tumble roll, I think this out come would be different, but in this end-over
case, the stock Wrangler cage did do it's job.

[Roxtar]

Then you're a tard. The manufacturers make vehicle roofs, seatbelts and seats to give enough to save your knucklehead in an accident or rollover. By putting bars all the way around your head, when your seatbelt gives.....POOF....instant lobatomy. Although in this case, probably not much of a loss. :kissyou:

-jbHey genius, you're trying to debate metallurgy and fabbing with a couple people here (me included) who have been making their living at it for quite some time.
It's a seatbelt, not a bungy cord. Yes, it has SOME give, not near enough to put your head in contact with the cage. Otherwise it would be putting the same head in close proximity of the windshield on a stock vehicle crash and that's not gonna happen. Also, in a severe crash like you're talking about the airbags will blow, further protecting you.

You say a caged vehicle is less safe than an uncaged one and I'M a tard?!
Okie Terry said it best, "Think it, say it, but don't type it." Now your stupidity is on public record for everyone to see.

[Beezil]

However, in my opinion the A pillar often gets over looked as an area of concern.


Yes! Exactly!

I'm starting to think that JES and URF might be on to something with the "visor" bracket. could be a similar concept to goatman using the b-pillar seatbelt bolt as a tie in.

Jes, are you guys doing any welding in that area, or at least using bigger fasteners.

I think the idea of tie-ins of the cage to other key parts of the unibody is a good idea, and Jes' bracket sparked my curiosity

[vintagespeed]

You say a caged vehicle is less safe than an uncaged one and I'M a tard?!

Yes in a standard fair street accident a roll cage can kill you. Ever heard of Dale Earnhart? You know, the guy that inspired the Hans device craze? Hell he was 5 pointed in place. You see, he hit something solid with his head and yeah he was wearing a helmet. You're not wearing a helmet or a 5 point so good luck. And your airbag isn't going to do shit for you.

You're trying to debate something as ridiculous as how much you move around in a vehicle in an accident, ever watch any of the manufacturer crash test video? Maybe you should.

As for fab skills, I've never heard of you. Sure, maybe your making a living at it I've seen alot of "professional" fab work that was junk. I've even done a little fab work myself but surely nothing as extensive as you. ;)

-jb

[vintagespeed]

Hey genius, you're trying to debate metallurgy and fabbing with a couple people here (me included) who have been making their living at it for quite some time.

Ok, I had to do a little research cause you got me curious.

http://www.albumtown.com/showpic.php?uuid=11149&aid=11926&pid=144649

I've seen booger welds before but that shackle bracket's a keeper. Nice job! :thumbup:

-jb

[Rev Den]

Yes in a standard fair street accident a roll cage can kill you. Ever heard of Dale Earnhart? You know, the guy that inspired the Hans device craze? Hell he was 5 pointed in place. You see, he hit something solid with his head and yeah he was wearing a helmet. You're not wearing a helmet or a 5 point so good luck. And your airbag isn't going to do shit for you.
-jb

Time out.

Earnhardt (note the spelling) hit a wall at aprox 150 MPH, his belt broke, the unfaced helmut allowed his chin to contact the interior of the car.

Therefore

He was NOT wearing a 5 point, it broke.
He did not have a helmut protecting his chin.
He was exceding the XJ speed by about a factor of 2.

An airbag, assmuming a belt is worn and the windshiel is in place, will affect the outcome if it deployes.

JTTH

Rev

Time in

[XJJPR]

Yes in a standard fair street accident a roll cage can kill you. Ever heard of Dale Earnhart? You know, the guy that inspired the Hans device craze? Hell he was 5 pointed in place. You see, he hit something solid with his head and yeah he was wearing a helmet. You're not wearing a helmet or a 5 point so good luck. And your airbag isn't going to do shit for you.

You're trying to debate something as ridiculous as how much you move around in a vehicle in an accident, ever watch any of the manufacturer crash test video? Maybe you should.

As for fab skills, I've never heard of you. Sure, maybe your making a living at it I've seen alot of "professional" fab work that was junk. I've even done a little fab work myself but surely nothing as extensive as you. ;)

-jb


For one DE didn't inspire the Hans device! A guy name Hubbard invented it in the mid 80s. Seat belts don't give, the mechanism that allows you to move around in your car and drive it moves, not the belt. The Hans device has nothing to do with your head hitting anything. It holds the head from greater movement from the weight of the helmet. DE never liked tight belts and it contributed to creating some of the major injuries which killed him.

Now for cage in a DD. The whole safety institute for years have been talking that the "safety cage" the area the drive sits has been weak and needs improvement, IE strengthening. A cage added to a vehicle will help with this weak safety cage area big time. And just might save someones life.

Now this doesn't mean a blow to the head is a good thing either, but I for one and most others with common thinking is going to say if the truck is going to stay in better form during a crash you have a better chance of surviving it. The movement in the vehicle during the crash has more to do with weak seats and people's sitting positions than the "give" in a seat belt system. Do you drive with your hands in the proper place? If not the safety institute says that is one of the biggest "Wrongs" in people's sitting position and causes problems/injuries during a crash!

You can beat your head against the wall for a long time before you will convince me that a vehicle that is stronger will be worst for surviving a crash.

In my old age I can fall, break a hip and crack my head open on the concrete, but do i walk around with a helmet on???? Maybe I should if I lived your way of thinking.

Anyhow, you live in Ka. they would outlaw cages if they were dangerous to the publics well being.

Just some thoughts to mellow out on.

hinkley

[Beezil]

Who the hell is Earnhardt and why the hell would he be driving 150 MPH???

reckless idiot sounds like he got what he deserved

[XJJPR]

Who the hell is Earnhardt and why the hell would he be driving 150 MPH???

reckless idiot sounds like he got what he deserved


Now, now, you might get away with messing with all that relgious stuff but don't you be talking bad about NASCAR!


hinkley

[DrMoab]

Time out.

Earnhardt (note the spelling) hit a wall at aprox 150 MPH, his belt broke, the unfaced helmut allowed his chin to contact the interior of the car.

Therefore

He was NOT wearing a 5 point, it broke.
He did not have a helmut protecting his chin.
He was exceding the XJ speed by about a factor of 2.

An airbag, assmuming a belt is worn and the windshiel is in place, will affect the outcome if it deployes.

JTTH

Rev

Time in
Stole my thunder Rev. I agree. Can't even compare the two at all. If anyone could get there jeep to go fast enough to break even there stock belt(if it was in proper condition) then they are getting what the deserve!

[jjvande]

this is a jeep forum.


I have to agree that there is some increase in possible head damage as a result of adding a cage. like vint said...watch the crash test videos. however, if this is balanced out by the increase in chassis rigidity and therefore less deformation of the passenger compartment, maby the odds are you're safer in the end. argue all you want. unless there's data to back it up, there is no winner.

For these reasons, the cage that will end up in my XJ will be pushed up into the roof as far as possible. I will try to keep large metal DOM pipes away from my head.:rattle:

peace

[Beezil]

I will try to keep large metal DOM pipes away from my head.:rattle:

peace

PIPES!!!??? PIPES!!!????

YOU SAID pipes?????

how dare you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ChEwBaCcA]

3, should have had a cage from PUV, he'd still be here today!

Chewy

[vintagespeed]

For one DE didn't inspire the Hans device!......Seat belts don't give, the mechanism that allows you to move around in your car and drive it moves, not the belt.......It holds the head from greater movement from the weight of the helmet......DE never liked tight belts and it contributed to creating some of the major injuries which killed him.

hinkley

Gotta love Naxja, make a simple statement about compromising your safety in a potential accident and everyone jumps on the bandwagon. You know what, I like the color blue what do you like? The facts is the facts and you guys can argue how safe it is all you want. Mine's getting a cage but mine's not something I daily drive in traffic either.

Hinky, I said "DE inspired the Hans device CRAZE" not the device itself. Prior to his death not everyone was using it in their cars, now they all do. Duh. You agree that the body moves around ALOT inside a traditional 3 point seatbelt. Duh. You said the Hans device limits how much your head moves around in an impact....um Duh hello? Is this thing on? Do you have a Hans device in your cage equipped DD? Thought not. Duh. Tight belts? Like a loose 3 point in your car? Duh. And how can you fall on concrete in Texass? Isn't it all dirt & tumbleweeds out thar?

Comparing a 150mph NASCAR impact to a major traffic collision is a fair comparison. A full tube chromo chassis @ 150mph probably crumples and deforms much less than your XJ @ 60mph. This makes it even more compelling that you'll bang your noggin. Think about it.

Quit arguing the obvious people. Duh. :twak:

-jb

[XJJPR]

Gotta love Naxja, make a simple statement about compromising your safety in a potential accident and everyone jumps on the bandwagon. You know what, I like the color blue what do you like? The facts is the facts and you guys can argue how safe it is all you want. Mine's getting a cage but mine's not something I daily drive in traffic either.

Hinky, I said "DE inspired the Hans device CRAZE" not the device itself. Prior to his death not everyone was using it in their cars, now they all do. Duh. You agree that the body moves around ALOT inside a traditional 3 point seatbelt. Duh. You said the Hans device limits how much your head moves around in an impact....um Duh hello? Is this thing on? Do you have a Hans device in your cage equipped DD? Thought not. Duh. Tight belts? Like a loose 3 point in your car? Duh. And how can you fall on concrete in Texass? Isn't it all dirt & tumbleweeds out thar?

Comparing a 150mph NASCAR impact to a major traffic collision is a fair comparison. A full tube chromo chassis @ 150mph probably crumples and deforms much less than your XJ @ 60mph. This makes it even more compelling that you'll bang your noggin. Think about it.

Quit arguing the obvious people. Duh. :twak:

-jb


For one it's not a craze! It was a craze prior to them making rules for it's use, after DE's death. Your right is it on, your helmet during DD, NO!

For two take your last line of adive yourself! Your arguements are all out there!

hinkley

[XJJPR]

Gotta love Naxja, make a simple statement about compromising your safety in a potential accident and everyone jumps on the bandwagon.

Quit arguing the obvious people. Duh. :twak:

-jb


BTW, what does that have to do with NAXJA? Go make this argument of yours that cages aren't safe because you might hit your head to any reasonable thing group of car enthusiast and I'll bet money you'll get the same reaction you get here. If you follow this logic then you should never dirve on the freeway EVER!

Like I said take your own advice!


hinkley

[jjvande]

PIPES!!!??? PIPES!!!????

YOU SAID pipes?????

how dare you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOL, yea, i knew that might ruffle some feathers.

[Gridikal]

Comparing a 150mph NASCAR impact to a major traffic collision is a fair comparison. A full tube chromo chassis @ 150mph probably crumples and deforms much less than your XJ @ 60mph. This makes it even more compelling that you'll bang your noggin. Think about it.
Got board and found that interesting so I did some physics on that just to play around with (I suck at it so correct me if I'm wrong)

My XJ wieght- 4,900 lbs @ 60 MPH
Nascar wieght- 3,400 lbs @ 150 MPH

A head on collision between the 2 (and assuming the bodies remained together) would result in the XJ and the nascar moving together at 26 MPH in the direction the nascar was travaling. So the XJ went from 60 MPH to -26 MPH (similar to hitting a wall head on at 86 MPH) and the nascar going form 150 MPH to 26 MPH (similar to hitting a wall at 124 MPH)




I think :dunce:

[OT]

Hey, look what I did.

Padding!

Maybe I can inspire a craze. This is much softer than the hard stuff that I would bang my head into if it weren't there.

I think I made my safety zone even safer,

http://www.savepic.com/freepicturehosting/is.php?i=309487&img=HPIM0907.jpg

[Gil BullyKatz]

Hey, look what I did.

Padding!


http://www.savepic.com/freepicturehosting/is.php?i=309487&img=HPIM0907.jpg

I dunno... Unless that padding has been researched, designed and built by auto manufacturers, there's Nooooooooooooo way it would make my head any safer than hitting a metal door frame...

You gotta use Nascar approved padding ya know...

You're an idiot Okie, and for that, your rig will suffer from spontaneous combustion, and burn, due to not using flame retardant padding...

oh and btw... Even if your body and head remain immobile during a crash, that crap on your rearview mirror will cause it to be slingshot at your face, driving your nose up into your skull and killing you...

way to keep things in perspective...


Sheesh

[Fergie]

Is the padding offcially sanctioned?

Fergie

[OT]

Is the padding offcially sanctioned?

Fergie
It's sanctioned by the National Pool Toy Association of America.

[vintagespeed]

BTW, what does that have to do with NAXJA? Go make this argument of yours that cages aren't safe because you might hit your head to any reasonable thing group of car enthusiast and I'll bet money you'll get the same reaction you get here. If you follow this logic then you should never dirve on the freeway EVER!

Like I said take your own advice!


hinkley

Only on Naxja does a simple opinion turn into a witch hunt and if you express an opinion that "the big dogs" dont agree with all the minions flock to bash you. Haven't you ever seen this before? Jeezus, it's every thread.

I belong to 3 Rx7/rotary forums and used to take part in open track driving. I also have built about 50 sandcars which have lots of tubing. I'm currently building another rotary that'll do some track time. Gotta say you're 100% wrong, any real track racer will tell you the same thing I did, it comes up alot as many RX7 owners want a cage in their street cars. A racecar is a racecar and a streetcar is a streetcar. My dad runs SCCA and I've been building cars since I was old enough to read a wrench.

Where did I say you shouldn't drive on the freeway? You guys love to blow things out of proportion. I simply stated that a rollcage in a daily driver involved in a hard impact could cause major head trauma. And water pipe insulation isn't going to save your skull at speed. Hit it with a ball peen hammer to test it's effectiveness.

Ever drop off a rock & catch your head on your windowsill? Multiply that by about 6x.

The last thing I'll say (hold applause) on the subject is this. If you doubt how much you move around inside the cabin, sit in your driver's seat fully belted in place & try to touch your B pillar with your head, now touch your vent wing window. Sure, I'm wrong. :rolleyes:

I do take my advice, I dont drive my Junk daily on the freeway and it will have a cage this year (gotta buy another bender) that'll be triangulated and I'll be following other's examples as well as using my own experience. Coming down Jackhammer last weekend convinced me I need some kind of cage cause that last dropoff on the backside (north side) is a gnarly one.

How am I wrong again?

-jb

[Goatman]

I have thought numerous times that what will hold the vehicle intact in a roll can work against you in a crash. Cars are designed with crumple zones that are designed to absorb the energy so there is some amount of deceleration of the vehicle so the occupants don't hit the inside with such force. It isn't how hard the vehicle hits that matters to the people inside, it's how hard they hit the inside of the vehicle. When we add strong bumpers and frame reinforcement and well designed roll cages we are eliminating any crumple zones, which means we may be just fine in a roll but could be in trouble in a head on collison or hitting a wall or worse.

I think we need to continue to stress leaving adequate head room in a cage, and good padding. It would be a real shame for someone's rig to survive only to loose them to a bad head injury. This is one reason that my B pillar cross bar is angled back away from the driver and passengers heads, and there are no triangulated bars inside the roof. My triangulation is in the cage that's outside the roof.

In reference to Remi's cage, there is as good a head room in this design as in any I've seen.

[jjmat3]

Is anyone using racing style harnesses in their cage equipped rigs? Properly used while driving on road, they would help to keep your head off the bars/dash/vent window/etc.? Not sure I would want to use one while wheeling as it would limit my ability to move in cab to see where I'm going, but while driving to the trail and back, it would be a good idea. (?)

[XJJPR]

Only on Naxja does a simple opinion turn into a witch hunt and if you express an opinion that "the big dogs" dont agree with all the minions flock to bash you. Haven't you ever seen this before? Jeezus, it's every thread.


If you hate it so much why do you bother? If it is such "You guys" against yourself are you a victim here? Maybe some grow time is needed????


belong to 3 Rx7/rotary forums and used to take part in open track driving. I also have built about 50 sandcars which have lots of tubing. I'm currently building another rotary that'll do some track time. Gotta say you're 100% wrong, any real track racer will tell you the same thing I did, it comes up alot as many RX7 owners want a cage in their street cars. A racecar is a racecar and a streetcar is a streetcar. My dad runs SCCA and I've been building cars since I was old enough to read a wrench.

Yes I'm sure these guys don't do any mods to their rigs that in some way might just compromise something else for the benefit of another, RIGHT!



Where did I say you shouldn't drive on the freeway?

Most DD are driven on the freeway. So then its ok with you if they are driven on the freeway but not as a DD????? Makes sense to me! NOT



The last thing I'll say (hold applause) on the subject is this. If you doubt how much you move around inside the cabin, sit in your driver's seat fully belted in place & try to touch your B pillar with your head, now touch your vent wing window. Sure, I'm wrong.

Sure I can, possible, but haven't tried. Also will be bent over and kissing my A$$ goodbye if I ever drive in a non defensive position while driving my slow a$$ XJ at 150 without my helmet on at Talladega! ( OK I'm being an A$$ here)



How am I wrong again?

Wrong, its an XXXXing opinion, state it but you don't need to cram it down everyone who thinks different. It has nothing to do with your ego if someone doesn't agree with you. But if you insist on pushing your opinion against the popular then you might just get some crap back. I have been where you are sitting many times. Not everything I state as opinion is alway popular either, big XXXXing deal! Life goes on. Again the wrong is, it has nothing to do with wrong or right its an opinion! But you seem to be stuck on being right here.

hinkley

[Beezil]

Is anyone using racing style harnesses in their cage equipped rigs? Properly used while driving on road, they would help to keep your head off the bars/dash/vent window/etc.? Not sure I would want to use one while wheeling as it would limit my ability to move in cab to see where I'm going, but while driving to the trail and back, it would be a good idea. (?)

I'm using a 5 point and the appropriate seat

[Goatman]

I'm using a 5 point and the appropriate seat



I'm not.......and probably should be.

[Andy Steiner]

Now for cage in a DD. The whole safety institute for years have been talking that the "safety cage" the area the drive sits has been weak and needs improvement, IE strengthening. A cage added to a vehicle will help with this weak safety cage area big time. And just might save someones life.I don't agree with you. In the 1960s and 1970s, Indycars were solid hunks of iron and when crashed, drivers sometimes died. In the 1990s those car under went drastic changes that allowed parts of the vehicle to disinigrate upon impact, lessing the mass of the vehicle and leading to a marked decrease in driver fatalities.

Think back to the 1950s and 1960s. Detroit cars were made of steel and built like a tank. Drivers did not survive crashes. Major automobile maufacutrers have built similar, albeit different crash worthy features into newer cars. They're called crumble zones and they are specifically designed to absorb the impact of a crash rather than transfer the force to the driver. The addition a cage MAY compromise those built in features.

[Rawbrown]

My 2 cents going back to the root of the subject. Remi Rolled over at what speed? and did the roof crush down to contact his head? How many XJ's have you seen roll over in rock crawling (since thats what most of us do) that were not equiped with a cage that suffered head trauma? no opinions, just facts. and how many of those XJ's rolled over were then totalled out?

The fact of the matter I think is that statistically, a stock XJ's roof is adequate in protecting its ocupants from suffering head trauma beyond a bump or a cut. For me, its impractical to waste money on a cage thats gonna add weight, get in my way, possibly cause head trauma if I roll at hwy speeds and yet still cause severe damage to my jeep when I roll over on the trail!
whatever part of the Tubing is stronger... fact of the matter is its still reinforcment and is stronger than stock. but if I want monkey bars I will go to the park with my son. whether you have an internal cage or not, if you roll then your jeep is still F'd.

[XJoachim]

In my understanding adding an internal cage does not fight the crumple zones built in the vehicle. It stiffens exactly the part of the vehicle where the occupants try to survive in a crash or rollover. Add an exo cage to that and you're going back to the 50s and 60s because you eliminate those crumple zones and the impact during a high speed crash (g forces) will kill you.

If you get a cage you have to think about replacing your seats and belts at least. There are 4-point belts with automatic shoulder straps that will give you enough moving ability inside the car on the trail but still are safe.

A car with a proper internal cage, seats and belts will triple your chance to survive in any crash possible. Tie an exo cage to this internal cage and it should only be used as a trailer queen. I wouldn't want to drive in this car as a DD nor would i drive it to the trails. IMHO an exo caged car is strictliy off road only because there are not these g forces that will occur during a freeway accident. Well designed it reduces body flex and protects the sheet metal enough so it won't be totaled after a roll.

An internal cage without special seats and belts is just 50% working and may be unsafe under several conditions. But reinforcind the passenger cell (survival zone) of any car is always a good thing but if you do it, do it right, add seats and belts to it.

My XJ is a trailer queen, it will never see pavement again, I plan to add an inner cage tied to the outer with proper triangulation (i'm missing the back seats already), mastercraft seats and 5-point belts and i'm always wearing a helmet if i do serious stuff. I don't need crumple zones off road so i build it like a tank because everything can be replaced by me but nothing can replace me.

Just my .02 :wave:

[Beezil]

I'm using a 5 point and the appropriate seat

Goat, you know how to swing on the jungle gym, you don't need your seat table in the upright position!

go loose!

[Beezil]

My 2 cents going back to the root of the subject. Remi Rolled over at what speed? and did the roof crush down to contact his head? How many XJ's have you seen roll over in rock crawling (since thats what most of us do) that were not equiped with a cage that suffered head trauma? no opinions, just facts. and how many of those XJ's rolled over were then totalled out?


the first time I rolled was in soft mud, and my a-pillars gave way and my head contacted the part of the roof that had collapsed. I had a nice red cut as proof.

it was a soft roll at no more than 20 mph.

no cage.

whether you have an internal cage or not, if you roll then your jeep is still F'd.

who cares about the jeep?


The fact of the matter I think is that statistically, a stock XJ's roof is adequate in protecting its ocupants from suffering head trauma beyond a bump or a cut.

Raw, there was one roll in particular that I was extremely glad I had a cage. I rolled off of a rock ledge and went from tires to the roof like I got slung, right down into more rocks than boulders.

my ass never left the seat, and NOTHING moved. PERFECT protection. Ask the guys who were standing there what they thought of the roll. None of them could believe how hard it was, and that my cage didn't budge.... Fk'd anyway? not hardly...I cannot believe for a guy with your technical knowledge and experience you would say something so completely irresponsible....perhaps you need to attend some events and see what people are getting into nowdays. Hell, the first time I rolled, I wasn't even wheeling! And I wasn't expecting it.

The ONLY facts are, that no one can predict or control, when or to what degree they will roll.

[XJJPR]

I don't agree with you. In the 1960s and 1970s, Indycars were solid hunks of iron and when crashed, drivers sometimes died. In the 1990s those car under went drastic changes that allowed parts of the vehicle to disinigrate upon impact, lessing the mass of the vehicle and leading to a marked decrease in driver fatalities.

Think back to the 1950s and 1960s. Detroit cars were made of steel and built like a tank. Drivers did not survive crashes. Major automobile maufacutrers have built similar, albeit different crash worthy features into newer cars. They're called crumble zones and they are specifically designed to absorb the impact of a crash rather than transfer the force to the driver. The addition a cage MAY compromise those built in features.

That's cool, but I'm not talking crumple zones I'm talking safety cage area. Crumple zones are important! IMO Our hugh front bumpers do worst things for our rigs in a big accident than a cage ever will.

Check out most any Safety institute tape, that head dude is always talking safety cage area. Yes you want crumple zones but they are not to protrude into the passenger cabin area. Yes the old cars never had crumple zones and were dangerous because of it. Lack of impact absorption!

As for the Indy car thing, the driver's compartment is the safety pod area. Everything else falls apart except it. Thus reducing energy at impact of the driver's pod. In fact that pod on some of the first Indy cars didn't take care of the lower legs and feet. Many drivers suffered big time foot injuries during crashes. Now the pod is one complete part of the safety built into Indy cars. Check out any good (bad) crash today the pod is usually the only thing left with the drive walking away a lot of the time.

hinkley

[XJJPR]

My 2 cents going back to the root of the subject. Remi Rolled over at what speed? and did the roof crush down to contact his head? How many XJ's have you seen roll over in rock crawling (since thats what most of us do) that were not equiped with a cage that suffered head trauma? no opinions, just facts. and how many of those XJ's rolled over were then totalled out?



I have no idea, I wasn't there were you?

I haven't been around ALL the rollovers of XJs either, have you?

BTW, ketchup won't even give ALL the FACTs of his rollover, its been a big secret!

hinkley

[XJJPR]

The fact of the matter I think is that statistically, a stock XJ's roof is adequate in protecting its ocupants from suffering head trauma beyond a bump or a cut.

Is this a fact or an opinion?????


Looks opinion to me???? :dunno: I thought you wanted only facts!

LOL


You guys are getting way too funny at this. Have you been playing with the JeepBBS Borg????????


hinkley

[Beezil]

I have no idea, I wasn't there were you?

I haven't been around ALL the rollovers of XJs either, have you?

BTW, ketchup won't even give ALL the FACTs of his rollover, its been a big secret!

hinkley


"the road gave way"

????

:D

[Beezil]

You guys are getting way too funny at this. Have you been playing with the JeepBBS Borg????????


hinkley


I'm starting to see a pattern....kejtar calling in his socal posse perhaps?

[Goatman]

I think we all still need to remember the individual perspective that we're talking from. Most of these comments are valid in context.

Regarding the safety cage concept. The concept of a safety cage that is being designed into late model cars is to strengthen the structure around the passengers and sacrifice everything else. The car is designed to collapse at either end to absorb energy, actually routing the energy through the structure of the "safety cage" into the other end of the vehicle. Engineers have been able to do this pretty successfully, I've seen front end wrecks where there were crinkles in the rear, but the passenger compartment was intact.

In our XJ's this is somewhat of a moot point. Our vehicles were not designed with either crumple zones or the safety cage concept. Our crumple zones are purely the crushing of the sheet metal, but this is still preferable to the complete tubed out front that is so strong that it won't collapse. But also, strong front bumpers and frame reinforcement will do the same thing, so it probably isn't that big of a deal. I guess if we were really designing a cage to protect us and not the rig, it would be from A pillar to C pillar, with good head clearance and padding, and four point harness, giving good protection in a roll but leaving the front and back to collapse in a highway accident. But, I think most of us build a cage to protect and strengthen the rig as much or more as we do to protect us.

If we get in an accident, we have to rely on the crumple zones of the other vehicle. :) An example of this is an accident that I was in a number of years ago (which also demonstrates that we have no crumple zones). I rear ended a sedan in the rain and spun that car into another car. The whole back end of the sedan was pushed in up to the rear window. My insurance agent told me it was a $30,000 claim, and mine was only a couple thousand. I replaced the front lights and fender on one side, and the bumper, and it didn't even damage the hood. This was with the stock bumper, but the factory tow hook brackets, imagine if I'd had the mongo bumper that I put on after that wreck. Anyway, the point is that we don't have crumple zones, so while we need to understand the concept, let's don't make too big a deal out of them on our XJ's.

The issue of head protection, and a design that keeps bars away from heads, to me is an important one.

[Goatman]

I'm starting to see a pattern....kejtar calling in his socal posse perhaps?



Damn straight! Anyone needs reinforcements when up against you two a$$holes.




:D :D

[Beezil]

I think we all still need to remember the individual perspective that we're talking from. Most of these comments are valid in context.

Regarding the safety cage concept. The concept of a safety cage that is being designed into late model cars is to strengthen the structure around the passengers and sacrifice everything else. The car is designed to collapse at either end to absorb energy, actually routing the energy through the structure of the "safety cage" into the other end of the vehicle. Engineers have been able to do this pretty successfully, I've seen front end wrecks where there were crinkles in the rear, but the passenger compartment was intact.

In our XJ's this is somewhat of a moot point. Our vehicles were not designed with either crumple zones or the safety cage concept. Our crumple zones are purely the crushing of the sheet metal, but this is still preferable to the complete tubed out front that is so strong that it won't collapse. But also, strong front bumpers and frame reinforcement will do the same thing, so it probably isn't that big of a deal. I guess if we were really designing a cage to protect us and not the rig, it would be from A pillar to C pillar, with good head clearance and padding, and four point harness, giving good protection in a roll but leaving the front and back to collapse in a highway accident. But, I think most of us build a cage to protect and strengthen the rig as much or more as we do to protect us.

If we get in an accident, we have to rely on the crumple zones of the other vehicle. :) An example of this is an accident that I was in a number of years ago (which also demonstrates that we have no crumple zones). I rear ended a sedan in the rain and spun that car into another car. The whole back end of the sedan was pushed in up to the rear window. My insurance agent told me it was a $30,000 claim, and mine was only a couple thousand. I replaced the front lights and fender on one side, and the bumper, and it didn't even damage the hood. This was with the stock bumper, but the factory tow hook brackets, imagine if I'd had the mongo bumper that I put on after that wreck. Anyway, the point is that we don't have crumple zones, so while we need to understand the concept, let's don't make too big a deal out of them on our XJ's.

The issue of head protection, and a design that keeps bars away from heads, to me is an important one.


I'll give it to ya all real plain and simple-like...

the xj is a laughable flimsy piece of shit.

that is all.

[Jes]

Only on Naxja does a simple opinion turn into a witch hunt and if you express an opinion that "the big dogs" dont agree with all the minions flock to bash you.

-jb

Wow, are you from New York and who is "bash"ing you?
Also, who are the "big dogs"? A list of them would be appreciated.
Thanks.

[Goatman]

I'll give it to ya all real plain and simple-like...

the xj is a laughable flimsy piece of shit.

that is all.

This thread has brought out all this talk of highway stuff, but the bottom line is that we're all building cages to hold our rigs together, to protect us AND our rigs in a good roll, and to keep them from cracking into pieces after a few years of hard wheeling.

To me, the ideal cage adds rigidity from front to back, protects the basic integrity of the body/chassis, and doesn't intrude into good head space.

If all someone wants is to add some occupant protection in a roll, it doesn't take a whole lot of cage.

[MaXJohnson]

I'll give it to ya all real plain and simple-like...

the xj is a laughable flimsy piece of shit.

that is all.

that would explain why it's so common to find XJ's with 150,000 to 250,000 miles still on the highways and backroads.

[biscuitboy87]

i dont get why you all are argueing so much.
the XJ is a good all 'rounder which due to the unibody is pretty damn safe. a hoop to protect you in a mild roll is a good idea. fact is ketchup? has a nice addition over stock. some forces may be encountered which could overcome the tubing which may be unfortunate. at freeway speeds there will be some heavy variables to contend with...at high speeds physics is not on the side of fragile flesh...cage or not. if you want to discuss metallurgy i suggest you take it to off topic and have a real discussion...and learn something. if you want to discuss safety and triangulation take that to a separate place, because the variables and physics involved in what y'all are discussing depends on case by case information.
DOM will be stronger than welded tube bent or not...always. its in how the crystal lattice is formed and lines up on a microscopic level. DOM is considered to be marginally forged and welded is considered to be "cast" product. apples and oranges really.
all i see is opinion which teaches me nothing. what would be nice is if some of the "big dogs" (LOL) chimed in with some fact. like the tubing used was this diameter and this thickness. this particular steel has this tensile and will yield this much deflection per this predetermined length. to create this much deflection and overcoming the modulus of elasticity for permanent deformation will take this many pounds. taking such calculations into consideration a roll over at 20 mph will exert this much force....ahhh but wait what about the variables (like a rock sticking out at a certain angle)....get the point?

[Rawbrown]

not to argue Bez but how bad was the cut? did you need to be rushed off the trail to the emergency room? or were you able to do a trail fix and finish the day after righting your rig?
I am not arguing the validity of cages protecting the occupants in a rollover. yes cages save lives. but for arguments sake, how many lives were lost or seriously corrupted due to a rollover in an XJ without a cage?
Hink, whether fact of opinion I am still waiting for someone to tell me about a roll that required immidiate medical attention due to crushed roof contact with head.
If statistics showed that the odds of severe head trauma were high then I would be more apt to install a cage.

[OT]

i dont get why you all are argueing so much.
the XJ is a good all 'rounder which due to the unibody is pretty damn safe. a hoop to protect you in a mild roll is a good idea. fact is ketchup? has a nice addition over stock. some forces may be encountered which could overcome the tubing which may be unfortunate. at freeway speeds there will be some heavy variables to contend with...at high speeds physics is not on the side of fragile flesh...cage or not. if you want to discuss metallurgy i suggest you take it to off topic and have a real discussion...and learn something. if you want to discuss safety and triangulation take that to a separate place, because the variables and physics involved in what y'all are discussing depends on case by case information.
DOM will be stronger than welded tube bent or not...always. its in how the crystal lattice is formed and lines up on a microscopic level. DOM is considered to be marginally forged and welded is considered to be "cast" product. apples and oranges really.
all i see is opinion which teaches me nothing. what would be nice is if some of the "big dogs" (LOL) chimed in with some fact. like the tubing used was this diameter and this thickness. this particular steel has this tensile and will yield this much deflection per this predetermined length. to create this much deflection and overcoming the modulus of elasticity for permanent deformation will take this many pounds. taking such calculations into consideration a roll over at 20 mph will exert this much force....ahhh but wait what about the variables (like a rock sticking out at a certain angle)....get the point?
Who the hell are you?

This discussion is very technical and shows several levels of expertise and the arguments give way to new ideas. It's in the right place now.

The original reason for this thread was for Guitar to show off his snazzy new bolt in cage, which should have been posted in the Picture Forum. He only threw in the crap about pipe insulation so he wouldn't look like a hypocrite (an inside thing). Other folks, however turned this thread into a Mod discussion.

And finally. I'm not sure if you have yet, but if you haven't met Remi in person you haven't earned the right to call him Ketchup. That's reserved for those that have put up with him in real life.

[ChuckD]

I don't agree with you. In the 1960s and 1970s, Indycars were solid hunks of iron and when crashed, drivers sometimes died. In the 1990s those car under went drastic changes that allowed parts of the vehicle to disinigrate upon impact, lessing the mass of the vehicle and leading to a marked decrease in driver fatalities.

Think back to the 1950s and 1960s. Detroit cars were made of steel and built like a tank. Drivers did not survive crashes. Major automobile maufacutrers have built similar, albeit different crash worthy features into newer cars. They're called crumble zones and they are specifically designed to absorb the impact of a crash rather than transfer the force to the driver. The addition a cage MAY compromise those built in features.


Could the lack of seatbelt laws skew your statistics?

[Bones]

the first time I rolled was in soft mud, and my a-pillars gave way and my head contacted the part of the roof that had collapsed. I had a nice red cut as proof.


http://images1.fotki.com/v5/photos/4/42106/114637/b9-vi.jpg
http://images1.fotki.com/v3/photos/4/42106/114637/b2-vi.jpg

[XJoachim]

I am not arguing the validity of cages protecting the occupants in a rollover. yes cages save lives. but for arguments sake, how many lives were lost or seriously corrupted due to a rollover in an XJ without a cage?
Hink, whether fact of opinion I am still waiting for someone to tell me about a roll that required immidiate medical attention due to crushed roof contact with head.
If statistics showed that the odds of severe head trauma were high then I would be more apt to install a cage.
I put in a cage for not being on that list. Do you have to get some serious injury first before you think about safety mechanisms? Not me, this is my body and i do anything to protect my life. As soon as i have access to a tubing bender this is my top priority project.

No one tells you that you must have a cage, do it or don't do it, it's your choice. But if i start dropping money in a cage i will not compromise it's stability through a missing triangulation or its effectivity by keeping the old seats and 3-point harness. :wave:

[GSequoia]

Fawk it.

I'm cutting the top off my XJ tomorrow morning.

Then I'm gonna ditch the seats in favor of an old produce crate. When I'm on the tippy stuff and am feeling a little nervous I'll get a bungee cord and strap myself to the center console.

[Beej]

I know nothing of cages but something about head injuries, so here's a couple of more cents for consideration. Your head does not need to make contact with anything in order for you to suffer a head injury. Just the force of your head being thrown around on your neck can cause contrecoup brain injuries. These occur from the motion of the brain against the inside of the skull from a sudden movement. This can obviously occur from an impact on the skull, but can also occur just from violent motion, for example being in a vehicle that rolls over several times. A cage can protect your head from actually contacting earth or steel, but won't protect you from contrecoup injuries no matter how well designed.
So there.
B.

[XJJPR]

Hink, whether fact of opinion I am still waiting for someone to tell me about a roll that required immidiate medical attention due to crushed roof contact with head.
If statistics showed that the odds of severe head trauma were high then I would be more apt to install a cage.


And you have a valued opinion for why YOU don't want a cage. There are considerations for every mod we all do to our rigs and not everyone has or have to have all the same ones.


hinkley

[Beezil]

that would explain why it's so common to find XJ's with 150,000 to 250,000 miles still on the highways and backroads.

not after they've rolled!!

[Beezil]

i dont get why you all are argueing so much.


arguing? no.

debating? yes!

and its great.

threads like these are the greatest. A ton of good information comes out.
if you want a fluffy thread, start a post about snorkels!

[Beezil]

not to argue Bez but how bad was the cut? did you need to be rushed off the trail to the emergency room? or were you able to do a trail fix and finish the day after righting your rig?
I am not arguing the validity of cages protecting the occupants in a rollover. yes cages save lives. but for arguments sake, how many lives were lost or seriously corrupted due to a rollover in an XJ without a cage?
Hink, whether fact of opinion I am still waiting for someone to tell me about a roll that required immidiate medical attention due to crushed roof contact with head.
If statistics showed that the odds of severe head trauma were high then I would be more apt to install a cage.

not bad at all. but I wasn't going very fast. I was surprised how much damage was done rolling slow on soft goo.

[C-ROK]

if you want to discuss metallurgy i suggest you take it to off topic and have a real discussion...and learn something. if you want to discuss safety and triangulation take that to a separate place, because the variables and physics involved in what y'all are discussing depends on case by case information.
DOM will be stronger than welded tube bent or not...always. its in how the crystal lattice is formed and lines up on a microscopic level. DOM is considered to be marginally forged and welded is considered to be "cast" product. apples and oranges really.


I'm not quite sure how to take your response here.
It sounds an aweful lot like you're trying to tell my I don't know anything about tubing or metallurgy and an aweful lot like you're trying to throw some words out there to make it sound like you do.

To start with I would recommend that you RE-read the response. I simply contended that the bends are stronger and not weaker while agreeing that they had a thinner wall thickness. I explained how they could be stronger with a thinner wall thickness due to the change in material properties from the cold working.
This change in material properties is IDENTICAL to the strength gain that DOM obtains during it's cold forming process. I did NOT say that the bends of EWS are comparable in strength to DOM. I have no idea if they are or not.

Now for some additional responses:
I don't know where you obtained your info on DOM but DOM starts out life as welded seam tube and is then cold formed as it's Drawn Over the Mandrel to become DOM. If you want to call that Apples and Oranges, fine. But DOM is an orange that started life as an apple.

During the mandrel forming process the GRAIN structure of the metal will change. The lattice structure does not and CANNOT change. This might have been what you meant but it is not what you said.

"Cast" tube is something I'm completely unfamiliar with. Does it really exist? In all of my life's experience working with metal I've never, over once heard this reference before.
EWS starts life as flat stock. It is rolled and seam welded to become tube. Not once in the process is there any "cast" forming. The tube can be rolled either Hot or Cold to form HREW or CREW.

I don't know who you are and I trust that you at least believe you know a great deal about all this. I might recommend not assuming that the posters on this thread know any less. I actually suspect it could be just the opposite.

We appreciate your input but might accept a little better if it came w/o the condescension.

[Beezil]

I'm not quite sure how to take your response here.
It sounds an aweful lot like you're trying to tell my I don't know anything about tubing or metallurgy and an aweful lot like you're trying to throw some words out there to make it sound like you do.

To start with I would recommend that you RE-read the response. I simply contended that the bends are stronger and not weaker while agreeing that they had a thinner wall thickness. I explained how they could be stronger with a thinner wall thickness due to the change in material properties from the cold working.
This change in material properties is IDENTICAL to the strength gain that DOM obtains during it's cold forming process. I did NOT say that the bends of EWS are comparable in strength to DOM. I have no idea if they are or not.

Now for some additional responses:
I don't know where you obtained your info on DOM but DOM starts out life as welded seam tube and is then cold formed as it's Drawn Over the Mandrel to become DOM. If you want to call that Apples and Oranges, fine. But DOM is an orange that started life as an apple.

During the mandrel forming process the GRAIN structure of the metal will change. The lattice structure does not and CANNOT change. This might have been what you meant but it is not what you said.

"Cast" tube is something I'm completely unfamiliar with. Does it really exist? In all of my life's experience working with metal I've never, over once heard this reference before.
EWS starts life as flat stock. It is rolled and seam welded to become tube. Not once in the process is there any "cast" forming. The tube can be rolled either Hot or Cold to form HREW or CREW.

I don't know who you are and I trust that you at least believe you know a great deal about all this. I might recommend not assuming that the posters on this thread know any less. I actually suspect it could be just the opposite.

We appreciate your input but might accept a little better if it came w/o the condescension.

exactly.

not an once of spobi here.

[Kejtar]

The original reason for this thread was for Guitar to show off his snazzy new bolt in cage, which should have been posted in the Picture Forum. He only threw in the crap about pipe insulation so he wouldn't look like a hypocrite (an inside thing). Other folks, however turned this thread into a Mod discussion.


And your point? Many folks post pictures of things that they have built or had built for them with no other reason for it then the show it off. I could go through the forum and probably from the last week pick out couple threads that have been posted in a similiar manner.

Anyways, I'll have to go and look at the pipe insulation again and compare it against some cage padding. The foam insulation seems to be pretty thick and "compressible" to a certain point, making it a good padding (maybe).

[Truth]

I'll give it to ya all real plain and simple-like...

the xj is a laughable flimsy piece of shit.

that is all.


I'm glad somebody said it.

Cool thread though, getting ideas to add to my own cage.

[Kejtar]

Oh yeah... couple more things:
1. Could my cage be made better? yes it could.
2. Will it protect me during a rollover? yes it will.
3. Will I improve it? yes I will.

[Mike L]

And your point? Many folks post pictures of things that they have built or had built for them with no other reason for it then the show it off. I could go through the forum and probably from the last week pick out couple threads that have been posted in a similiar manner.


I think there is a prticular forum devoted to just showing off. HERE (http://www.naxja.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=54) it is.

[Gil BullyKatz]

Something is definately wrong with this thread...
















































barely any :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Roxtar]

Wow, are you from New York and who is "bash"ing you?
Also, who are the "big dogs"? A list of them would be appreciated.
Thanks.Cool, does this mean I've hit "Big Dog" status?
It's always been my dream, you know

[XJEEPER]

Cool, does this mean I've hit "Big Dog" status?
It's always been my dream, you know

Nope, yer still a Corndog.......keep dreamin.....
:laugh3:

[biscuitboy87]

Who the hell are you?

This discussion is very technical and shows several levels of expertise and the arguments give way to new ideas. It's in the right place now.

The original reason for this thread was for Guitar to show off his snazzy new bolt in cage, which should have been posted in the Picture Forum. He only threw in the crap about pipe insulation so he wouldn't look like a hypocrite (an inside thing). Other folks, however turned this thread into a Mod discussion.

And finally. I'm not sure if you have yet, but if you haven't met Remi in person you haven't earned the right to call him Ketchup. That's reserved for those that have put up with him in real life.

Obviously I'm not somebody you should worry about.

The technical stuff I was referring to was from a post by beezil (whom i know to be very informed just by READING) and a few others who are IN the fabrication biz. they WERE going back and fourth between strength issues and everything i have read to this point was opinion (based on experience yes, but not backed up by some real data)

as for Remi, i will apologize for the ketchup since i indeed do not know him personally. my bad.

Okie, i have thought for a long time that were a reasonable person, with a great sense of humor...perhaps you were having a bad day? As for the jist of my comments (if you had actually read all of them) was to give Keitjar his kudos for the cage and point out that there are so many factors involved with impact vs. rollover et al. i didn't mean to intimidate you with my thoughts...and if they seem incongruent with the thread and that bothers you then perhaps you should grow some thicker skin.

[biscuitboy87]

I'm not quite sure how to take your response here.
It sounds an aweful lot like you're trying to tell my I don't know anything about tubing or metallurgy and an aweful lot like you're trying to throw some words out there to make it sound like you do.

To start with I would recommend that you RE-read the response. I simply contended that the bends are stronger and not weaker while agreeing that they had a thinner wall thickness. I explained how they could be stronger with a thinner wall thickness due to the change in material properties from the cold working.
This change in material properties is IDENTICAL to the strength gain that DOM obtains during it's cold forming process. I did NOT say that the bends of EWS are comparable in strength to DOM. I have no idea if they are or not.

Now for some additional responses:
I don't know where you obtained your info on DOM but DOM starts out life as welded seam tube and is then cold formed as it's Drawn Over the Mandrel to become DOM. If you want to call that Apples and Oranges, fine. But DOM is an orange that started life as an apple.

During the mandrel forming process the GRAIN structure of the metal will change. The lattice structure does not and CANNOT change. This might have been what you meant but it is not what you said.

"Cast" tube is something I'm completely unfamiliar with. Does it really exist? In all of my life's experience working with metal I've never, over once heard this reference before.
EWS starts life as flat stock. It is rolled and seam welded to become tube. Not once in the process is there any "cast" forming. The tube can be rolled either Hot or Cold to form HREW or CREW.

I don't know who you are and I trust that you at least believe you know a great deal about all this. I might recommend not assuming that the posters on this thread know any less. I actually suspect it could be just the opposite.

We appreciate your input but might accept a little better if it came w/o the condescension.
you're right...and that is exactly the info i was digging for. albiet had to ruffle a little feathers. i'll shut up now. oh, and i didn't mean any condescension...that is not what i am about i just want to know how the DOM was made, how strong it is, etc... because as far as i knew it was NEVER welded and hence drawn over the mandrel. i also was feeling that to know more about the steels we use would give us all more insight to its performance in a roll over.

[loop]

hey Remi-

i think the cage looks good....nice addition to your rig. :guitar: looks like it's come together nicely

[Hammertoe]

Nice cage here http://albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting.php :kissyou:

[Gil BullyKatz]

perhaps you should grow some thicker skin.

I gotta say it....

The MOST overused phrase on this board...

Let's try something different in '05...

how 'bout

"Easy there Cap'n... They're just silly jeeps!"


:D

[MaXJohnson]

I gotta say it....

The MOST overused phrase on this board...

Let's try something different in '05...

how 'bout

"Easy there Cap'n... They're just silly jeeps!"


:D

maybe his skin just needs more triangulation :kissyou:

[BrettM]

maybe his skin just needs more triangulation :kissyou:
now that just might stick! i like it :laugh3:

[Beezil]

I gotta say it....

The MOST overused phrase on this board...

Let's try something different in '05...

how 'bout

"Easy there Cap'n... They're just silly jeeps!"


:D

overused but under utilized!