Spooled good or bad?

[Casper]

OK here is my Question:
I am currently running a lockrite in my rear D35, non c-clip. I have been reading about many in the club running (welded) spooled rears. I have an extra D35 carrier, pinion, gears, etc. My XJ is not a daily driver anymore, and I would like to try a spooled rear D35. In the event of axle break in Moab, I have a replacement set of axles. My son ran a spool in his 89 Toyota 4x4 pickup, five speed and did very well. It was a dail driver. My XJ is an automatic running at the moment 3.55's. I have a set of replacement 3.55 gears as well. Can someone give me some advice on spooling my rear D35. I am a welder, have been one for over 15 years. I work in the mining industry and work on more critical welding than what this will involve, so I am not worried about the quality of welding, but I have never done one. Can anyone give me instructions and or photos on the procedure? Also, is it possible to use the lockrite that I had in the D35, in the front D30?? I am not worried about breakage in Moab, for no more work than it is to replace the axles or the carrier etc., I would like to run spooled in the D35 to see how it does. Any help with this would be greatly appreciated..........

Thanks,
Casper:anon:

[Josh 89XJ]

I've been very happy with my welded rear. Lots of people will just be parrots and repeat things like, "Your tires will never last!" and my personal favorite, "You'll never be able to drive it on the street again!" Ok people....shut up.

I used to have a Lock Right and I wasn't overly impressed with it. After I blew it to pieces (note to self, when it bounces, stop hitting the gas) I just welded the rear solid and it has been that way ever since. I run a set of 34" swampers on it with no problems. Just today I was bouncing it around on the rocks and didn't break a shaft. The only thing I've broken on it since it was welded was today when I sheared off those stupid strap style u-joint retainers on the yoke. As a friend of mine said though, "Your stuff lasts because you don't drive like an idiot"

Procedure is really simple. I strongly suggest removing the carrier and doing this on a bench. Clean the spiders really well with some MEK to remove any oil that may be on them, I mean take them out and SCRUB. You're a weldor, you know what I'm talking about. Anyway, reassemble them in the carrier and just weld the gears together at the 8 points where they join each other. Take your time and let them cool so that you don't warp anything. Some people suggest welding to the carrier as well, but as a fellow weldor I'm sure you probably understand just how much fun welding metals formed with dissimlar processes can be.

[Casper]

Thank you Josh,
I really appreciate your help. I agree with you on the parrot virus. And I also agree with the fact that if you don't drive like an idiot, your stuff will last longer. I am not a heavy mad man on the gas when it comes to wheeling. I figured it was welding the spiders, but I wanted to make sure. I don't believe I will weld to the carrier. Do you agree? I am looking at a picture of an assembled carrier (ring gear, spiders, cross shaft with the spiders). So that I understand you completely I would like to ask some questions if it is OK? I am assuming (boy how I hate to use that word), that you are talking about the weld points to be where the axle spider gears meet the cross pin spider gears??? Is that correct???

Casper

[woody]

To the best of my knowlege yes...you just weld where the spiders mesh through the 'windows' in the carrier.

You may want to weld the axle spiders to the carrier also? :dunno: That would make it pretty much an 'irreversable' mod then, but I'd think it be stronger.

I'd advise to pull the carrier out of the housing, clean it off really well (2-3 cans Brakleen?) and bench weld it, but I reckon you could do in in the housing too.

Glenn Baker successfully welded his 35...and Georgia Mike did his 27 spl 8.25. Maybe they can chime in here?

As for towing it behind your other Jeep...I wouldn't worry about it one bit. It'll still chirp the inside tire in tight turns, but :bawl: it aint a Caddy. I'd suspect you'll be fine. Got spare shafts :)

I am loving my spooled 44 again...today is the first day in awhile with wet roads, so it ought to be interesting :viking:

HTH

[Kye]

Hey found a site with a few pics of the way I welded up my 8.25 rear end and it has held toghether for 2 years of hard work and harded play. http://www.island4x4.com/4x4tech/axle/weldeddiff1/

[calvin andrus]

The comment about "Your tires will never last!" is true, I have a spooled rear end with 38 inch tsl's and I have about 1000 miles on them and you can litterally see the tread burning off when you turn corners ( I don't think they are going to make it through the summer), it might just be the tire because the tread is pretty soft, I have friends with spools and mtr's and the wear isn't as bad. Just my experience. later
-calvin

[giranger]

I am about to do this soon. I have the 8.25 with 3:55 gears now and I am getting a D35 with 4:10 gears I am going to weld for now. That way if I break something I can swap my 8.25 back in. Thanks for the writeup. Any other pics on how they did theirs? More pics would be helpful. TIA Jeff

[Matt]

Originally posted by calvin andrus
The comment about "Your tires will never last!" is true, I have a spooled rear end with 38 inch tsl's and I have about 1000 miles on them and you can litterally see the tread burning off when you turn corners ( I don't think they are going to make it through the summer), it might just be the tire because the tread is pretty soft, I have friends with spools and mtr's and the wear isn't as bad. Just my experience. later
-calvin

Check your pressure - I run a welded front and spooled rear with 38.5 swampers - I have about 3500 miles on them and they still look like new - 4-5psi on the dirt and 32 psi on the road :rolleyes:

Low pressure on the road will let the side lugs slap the pavement and wear much faster ;)

Matt

PS - Casper just fill the valleys of the spider and side gears where they contact each other - skip trying to to weld to the carrier - the only benefit to welding to the carrier is to prevent side spreading (this is what kills most lunchbox lockers - teeth lash opens and then the contact pressure ramps up until a tooth shears, and the momentum turns the side gears into stripped chunks of steel - the loose bits get sucked into the R&P if you're lucky) With the spiders welded to each other there is no way for the carrier to experiance spreading forces (unless the weld fails :rolleyes: ) and then you have bigger issues anyhow ;)

[Neil]

I agree with Matt. That's how I welded my 44. It's a DD and I don't have any problems. Tire wear is minimal. Take your time and don't get the spiders too hot or things can warp.

[Josh 89XJ]

Check out this picture, it shows how I welded mine.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=1267970

I agree with Matt, pressure makes a world of difference. Personally, I like my welded rear on the street. The only time that I notice it is when I'm taking a slow corner. Other than that I can't tell it is there...which is more than I can say about the locker I had in there :rolleyes:

[REDXJ4FUN]

I have to aree with most who have posted that welded or spooled is great. Ya i get a little more tire wear but other than that it drive fine in every condition but then again maybe I'm just used to it now.

[woody]

I just got back from a 120 mile road trip to Cary to swap Jeep parts...Tim noticed my rear tires looked slack, sure enough 15 psi in one and 20 in the other. I thought they were howlin more than normal :) Tim & Andrew's neighbors must love them boys :) BTW thanks for the air!

I agree that with low tire pressure, spooled/welded will wear out tires quicker...but in the case of welded...compare the price of a rod or 2 to a pair of tires, then price a quality locker... And in Casper's case...this isn't his daily driver anyway.

I needed a carrier for lower gears, so I went with a full spool. (and it IS my daily driver.) I'd consider welding if I were retaining gears that fit on an existing open carrier.

[Mark in WA]

I'll throw in my 2 cents...

Welded/spool is certainly going to be much more predictable than a locker - no sudden locking or unlocking (especially true with a Detroit). As with any other mod, you will have to make some adjustments to your driving style. I'll probably spool my CJ5 when I get to that part of the buildup.

[Georgia Mike]

:thumbup: Definately the best mod for the money I've done to my rig so far :roflmao: Let's see........
1 tube of gasket maker-$3.00
2 quarts gear oil-$6.00
?? feet of mig wire and gas-FREEBIES! I did it at the auto body school while the other students watched in horror--and the instructor walked away muttering "Leave me outta this one! I don't want to have ANYTHING to do with it!!"

Of course,to the other students and instructer,too,I'm the body-shop's anti-christ :jester: just because I think a Sawzall is a usefull body-working tool :)

Now,I can't wait for the Lock-Rite to come in the mail so it'll be locked front and rear--YEE-HAA!!!!!!!! :laugh:

[Casper]

Thanks for all the info guys. And such that this is not my daily driver, I am going with the welding mod. Josh89XJ, I tried to open that site with the picture that you posted, but it say Forbidden. It would be great to take a look at what you did. But a BIG thanks to all that responded. It is great to have all of the opinions.......
Heck, I have all the extras, gears, axles, spiders etc.... why not give it a try..................thanks again,

Casper

[Casper]

GREAT PICTURE Josh89XJ,
I had to open the properties on the link and get the full link, but it then worked. And it is a great picture. Thanks for all the help............. Here is your full link:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=1267970

Copy and paste in your browser,

Casper

[yellowxj]

Had my 35 welded at my favorite exhaust shop for $40 with the carrier in. Just welded four spots on the spiders cleaned it out with brake clean and air and away I went. I was planning on taking out the 35 for a 8.8 in a few months and wanted to try it. Considering doing it to my 8.8 now. Worked great. Kept tires at 35 for DDing. Still have the 35 for a spare.

[Josh 89XJ]

Oops, sorry about that Casper. I must have copied the link wrong. That isn't my rear though, I just searched pirate really quick to find a shot for you. I never took any shots of mine. If you have any questions, let me know and I'd be glad to help out.

One other tip: Stuff a wet rag or some leather in the splined section of the side gears when you weld it. If you get any slag on the splines it can be tricky to remove. I had to learn that one the hard way on my first welded diff.

[Casper]

Josh89XJ,
I take it that you welded it in place. Or did you take the carrier assembly out and weld it on the bench? And if you did take it out, did you pull your axles and have them inserted or something else to keep the gears in place?? Maybe I am seeing something that is not necessary???? You welded it up with mild steel electrodes, Like 7018, or the equivalent in mig wire welding, etc...........
I do agree on the procedure of taking steps in welding, not to warp anything..... Can you help me out with these questions???

Thanks,
Casper

[Casper]

Josh89XJ, Woody, and the rest that have been in this converstation,
So now that I understand the welding of the gears issue, I have one more question.
So far as the backlash and pinion depth, it is still the same procedure to do both, right? Nothing in that area has changed I take it???
I really appreciate all of your help in this matter. Thank you all very much.............

Casper

[Neil]

I welded mine in the axle. Just stuff wet rags behind the carier to keep slag from getting to deep in the housing. I forgot to put a wet rag on the ring gear and got some slag on it. Kind of noisy for a while. Good luck!

[Matt]

Originally posted by Casper
Josh89XJ, Woody, and the rest that have been in this converstation,
So now that I understand the welding of the gears issue, I have one more question.
So far as the backlash and pinion depth, it is still the same procedure to do both, right? Nothing in that area has changed I take it???
I really appreciate all of your help in this matter. Thank you all very much.............

Casper

If the carrier has the shims under the bearings you can pop it in and out all day long - just keep the two bearing caps to their respective sides (if the shims go between the housing and the bearings just be sure to keep the two stacks seperate and measure them after you first take them out; in case you bugger the pack up while attempting reinstallation) As long as you follow that guide your backlash and pinion depth will not change at all.

You may check the backlash before and after just to make sure - but there should be no change if everything seats like it was originally. ;)

[Georgia Mike]

One other point of advise that I did when when we welded mine-- wrap some wet (not sopping,dripping wet,just wet :))rags around the carrier bearings,too. This will keep any slag from screwing the bearings up. I don't know about the D-35,but the 8.25's bearings looked awfully inviting to the ol' weld boogers! :laugh: Also,I used CRC Brakleen in the *green* can (I think). Anyway,it plainly says on the can "Non Flammable",so get this to clean it out. It dries very quickly and leaves everything good and clean for welding without having to pull the carrier. Oh,BTW,here's a very informative,in depth article on diff welding--check it out!

http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=000015#000000

[Neil]

Oh yea I almost forgot. Get ready for the BIG STINK!! Don't know? You'll know as soon as you start to weld :)

[Casper]

Neil, Matt, GMike, Josh89XJ, Woody, and those I forgot,
Thanks guys for the help. I will post a email when I finish. I really appreciate all the information.

Casper

[korda]

Another tip: Don't leave the pan of oil gear oil and brake cleaner under the axle when you start to weld. That was an interesting 30 seconds of my life.

I'm another with a welded 35c and I love it. I'm only on 31"s and I carry spare shafts.

[Matt]

Originally posted by Casper
Neil, Matt, GMike, Josh89XJ, Woody, and those I forgot,
Thanks guys for the help. I will post a email when I finish. I really appreciate all the information.

Casper

While we're all adding tips- if you decide to do it in the housing - keep the ground clamp on the carrier itself - this prevents you from spot welding your bearings in the races or your R&P to each other (ground flow will arc across the path of least resistance) - otherwise burn away ;)

[Josh 89XJ]

Casper, You're thinking about this too hard :) I pulled my carrier out and did the job on the bench just because I wanted to be 100% sure that there was no oil whatsoever. The gears stay in place on their own due to the cross shaft through the center spider gears. No, I didn't put any spare axles in the side gears, I just stuffed some leather in the splined section to keep any slag out. Once you pull the unit you will see what I mean. The whole job is a piece of cake, just pull it from the axle and you will see what I mean. Good luck.

[Casper]

Josh89XJ,
I completely understand what you are saying. I can see that it is not that big of a job now that I have it out. I really appreciate your advice. There is nothing like having first hand experience on a job when you need it....... Thanks again,

Casper

[Georgia Mike]

Originally posted by Neil
Oh yea I almost forgot. Get ready for the BIG STINK!! Don't know? You'll know as soon as you start to weld :)

Oh yeah! forgot about that! :puke: Burning gear dope is a smell you'll likely never forget :)

[red87cherokee]

Here's a picture of the welding that a fellow in British Columbia did for his D30 (welding only the side gears).

http://www.island4x4.com/newimages/fozzy2.jpg

And an explanation from the same guy (Fozzy) on a Samurai:

http://www.island4x4.com/4x4tech/axle/weldeddiff1/index.html

[Rocky]

I live in an area where icy roads can make up most of the winter, what do you think of a spooled/welded rear in these conditions? Anyone have any experience?

[T180081]

A spooled rear is a little more "happy" than a rear that can differenciate.

When the tires are locked together, the tire that has the most weight on it has 100% of the torque, if it starts to spin, say the outside tire during a turn, the inside will have to follow because they are locked together. Well when both tires are spinning and you are turning you go sideways.

When the tires aren't locked together the outside tire may only have about 65% of the ytorque while the inside has the remaining. So neither tire spins because the torque is devided. But in this system. When one tire starts spinning, the spinning tire ends up with most of the torque, instead of the tire that has the weight (traction). That is why open diffs don't work so good offroad and why locked diffs do.

A detroit adds shock loads to the equation which are not nearly as predictable.

So, advice is to drive slower and more smoothly and get so practice in a parking lot going sideways and counter steering. I do most of my driving in the winter sideways. It is all in how you drive it. I actually prefer to have my wheels spooled in the snow and ice.

Remember. Nothing has good traction on ice except metal spikes. If you are looking for better traction on ice, you may just want to avoid it.

[T180081]

Who has used Oxy/accetalene to weld gears in still in the axle?

I have used oxy with the carrier out and the bearings still pressed on but not while the carrier was still in the housing. I think it would be okay as long as you took you time and let everything cool. Opinions on this.

[Matt]

I would either pull it if you have sucessfully done it out of the housing before - or find someone to use a buzz box of some sort - Stick, MIG, TIG ect

I would be very leary of subjecting the R+P (and the bearings) to that kind of heating :eek:

Matt

(Just stuff it full of JB Weld if all else fails :rolleyes: J/K )

[Casper]

No, I don't think I would even try it with oxy/act. I myself will be using my mig. I also would use stick, but the mig is much cleaner, hotter........................................

Casper

[Matt]

Originally posted by red87cherokee
Here's a picture of the welding that a fellow in British Columbia did for his D30 (welding only the side gears).

http://www.island4x4.com/newimages/fozzy2.jpg

And an explanation from the same guy (Fozzy) on a Samurai:

http://www.island4x4.com/4x4tech/axle/weldeddiff1/index.html

Good write up and pictures - however every filled valley set up I have ever seen ends up as a pile of chunks in the bottom of the housing - you ruin the temper of the side and spider gears by welding them - they then become very brittle due to the heat induced changes - and now you provide a distance for these two chunks of metal to gain a little momentum (however small it is still a much larger force than two gears welded solidly to each other) and strike each other repeatedly :( You will reach the fatigue failure point at some time and then bad things will happen - you are kidding youself if you think that much play is going to make the front end turn any easier - by the time the tires are partialy turned you have already taken the slack out of the gears and now you are effectively spooled...

Sorry but I don't buy it :rolleyes: Weld'em solid or run an OX/ARB

Matt

[woody]

"Another tip: Don't leave the pan of oil gear oil and brake cleaner under the axle when you start to weld. That was an interesting 30 seconds of my life"

LMAO another genius in our midst!!! Bless you Korda, now I don't feel like an ultramaroon so bad :D

Last week when pulling my 8.25 for the 44, the old brakeline wouldn't turn loose from the steel line...so we did PB Blaster, propane heat on the union, vise grips... strip, wait 1/2 hr and repeat.

About the 3rd session of this...I'm focused on that union mind ya...the rubber line swelled up and exploded. Got a real nice pair of scalds on the inner bicep and several specs on the face from that...LOL glad I had on my clear Gargoyles :dunno: but the fawking fitting turned loose real easy after that.

Focus on safety, people! Remember y'all don't have 9 lives like me. (and I've burned up more than a few of them doing this Jeep-wrenching-thing)

[4ward]

Woody, I figured you were on your 14th or 15th by now :D

Casper, have you welded this thing up yet or what. It's like a 30 min. job and we've been waiting a few days;)

As long as you don't let Beezil's mom at it, I think you'll do just fine.

Sean

[Casper]

Sean,
Sorry Dude. I was so excited about trying it out, I didn't take any pictures. I just hurried and put it back together and went out to try it. All I can say is, I should have done this along time ago. It works so great!!! I do get some tire chrip, but that I can live with. Although remember this is not my Daily Driver, so I wont be able to give you much information on how well it drives on a daily schedule. But so far as what I am after, WOW!!!!!!! OUTSTANDING!!!! I will be replacing some seals and checking bearings before Moab, so I will take some picture then................. I am really getting excited about Moab..............especially now that I have a cabin...he he he

Casper

[Georgia Mike]

Just remember,if you drive it on the street much,I can't strees it enough......rotate-rotate-rotate! If you don't regularly rotate your tires you will almost completely wear the passenger's side tire out before the other one is half worn. And keep a close eye on tire pressures! An ideal setup is to have a 6'-7' long air hose with two clamping air chucks on either end. Clamp each end to each wheel's valve stem to equalize the pressures evenly.