So will it be Billary in 2008?

[Fergie]

Just thinking...

If President Bush wins another term in office, do think the stage will be set for Hillary and her wife Bill to be back in the Whitehouse in 2008?

Fergie

[Urban Redneck]

Of course...do you really think they want Kerry in the office now? No, they are just setting the stage to smear Bush and the Republicans. This is going to be the "norm" until '08. Lucky us!

[XJZ]

Arnold in '08!!

[CW]

Arnold in '08!!There is the little problem with the constitution on that one.
I hope Mccain runs in '08. He will destroy Hillary and then maybe the Clinton's will just go away.

[jeeplas]

I heard that if Kerry gets elected, Hillary is going to push for a spot on the supreme court.

[seanR]

And Bill wants to be Sec Gen of the U.N.

[bgcntry72]

And Bill wants to be Sec Gen of the U.N.
You could have saved all that typing by just walking into the other room.
But, what fun is that?
:D

[jeeplas]

You could have saved all that typing by just walking into the other room.
But, what fun is that?
:D

He was talking to the forum readers you idiot! :wierd:

[seanR]

You could have saved all that typing by just walking into the other room.
But, what fun is that?
:D
If I did that, you wouldn't have heard me.
Neither would have anyone else.

[Matt S.]

There is the little problem with the constitution on that one.
I hope Mccain runs in '08. He will destroy Hillary and then maybe the Clinton's will just go away.


i am hearing that they are considering amending that. So that Arnold can me Pres. All I know that he woud be on kick ass pres.

[Fergie]

So Hillary is going through menopause and is having health issues, so she goes to see her Doc. Her Doc gives her some hormone pills and tells her to call him if she has any problems.

After about 2 weeks or so, she calls and comes into his office. "Doc" she says, "I am starting to grow hair on my chest like a man!". The Doc, a little concerned asks where the hair starts and she says"Right below my blouse line." He says, "How far down does it go?

















" All the way to my nuts!"

I'm done.

Fergie

[XJZ]

Found this interesting:

Schwarzenegger Has Designs On The White House

POSTED: 5:05 pm PDT October 30, 2004
LOS ANGELES -- After months of sidestepping questions about a possible presidential run, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has used some of his strongest language yet in suggesting he may someday be interested in the office.

Asked if he would like to be able to run and would support a Constitutional amendment that would allow foreign-born citizens like himself to seek the office, Schwarzenegger said, "Yes. Absolutely."

"I think, you know, because why not? I mean, you know, anyone with my way of thinking, you always shoot for the top," the governor said in the interview on "60 Minutes" to be broadcast Sunday.

"But it's not something that I am preoccupied with," he added. "I am not thinking one single minute about that. Because there's so many things I have to do in California, and my promise was to straighten out the mess in California."

At a rally last week before the interview aired, Schwarzenegger backpedalled.

"I cannot remember ever saying that," he said. "So I will be surprised to see the television show where I say it."

He then reiterated his past position, using vague terms of support for an amendment without referring to his own possible candidacy.

A U.S. Senate panel earlier this month discussed the possibility of amending the Constitution to remove the prohibition against foreign-born presidents.

An amendment proposed by Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, chairman of the Judiciary Committee, calls for allowing immigrants to run for president after they have been citizens for 20 years. A measure sponsored by Rep. Vic Snyder, D-Ark., would require 35 years of citizenship.

Schwarzenegger became a citizen in 1983.



I bet the Democrats will make sure there's no ammendment!!

[CW]

Arnold would be a horrible pres. Do you will want a man who gets pregnant and gives birth in a movie as our comander and chief?

[red91]

There is the little problem with the constitution on that one.
I hope Mccain runs in '08. He will destroy Hillary and then maybe the Clinton's will just go away.


people that get in the way of the Clintons all seem to have a similar problem...They end up dead. Just ask Vince.

[Boatwrench]

There is a reason that the founding fathers have the requirement of being a naturally born US citizen to be President and it's a good one. The colonies had just fought their way out of the yoke of oppression agianst a foriegn tyrannt and they wanted to insure that the leader of the first free (sorta excepting slaves, women and natives) society had no close ties to a foriegn soveirnty.

At my former employer the majority of mechanics were from central america and mexico. In conversation they always referred to "in my country" meaning honduras, guatamala or nicugraga etc. Their goal was to earn a fat US pension and return to "their country" and live high off the hog. That naturally borne requirement is to insure that the US really is "my country".

This Constitutional Admendment should frighten EVERY American.

The best understanding I have ever read about the War for Independence and causes of the revolution was "Rise to Rebellion".

Pardon my spelling...and Arnold isn't all that good of a Governor...Orin Hatch needs a swift kick to the ba... for even thinking about that admendment.

Tom

[DrMoab]

If Hillary gets in does that make Bill the First Lady? :laugh3:

[Gil BullyKatz]

There is a reason that the founding fathers have the requirement of being a naturally born US citizen to be President and it's a good one. The colonies had just fought their way out of the yoke of oppression agianst a foriegn tyrannt and they wanted to insure that the leader of the first free (sorta excepting slaves, women and natives) society had no close ties to a foriegn soveirnty.

At my former employer the majority of mechanics were from central america and mexico. In conversation they always referred to "in my country" meaning honduras, guatamala or nicugraga etc. Their goal was to earn a fat US pension and return to "their country" and live high off the hog. That naturally borne requirement is to insure that the US really is "my country".

This Constitutional Admendment should frighten EVERY American.

The best understanding I have ever read about the War for Independence and causes of the revolution was "Rise to Rebellion".

Pardon my spelling...and Arnold isn't all that good of a Governor...Orin Hatch needs a swift kick to the ba... for even thinking about that admendment.

Tom
Well here's the flaw to your "natural-born citizen" theory and the evils of immigrants...
I had NO choice as to where my mother gave birth to me...
I've been in this country, MY country, since I was 2 weeks old...
and although I had no choice in where I was born I CHOSE to place my ass on the line for the sake of MY country.
There are thousands, even millions of "naturally-born citizens" of all races/colors that milk our government programs and live the high hog here. Have you ever visited central america and seen a so called "high hog" living down there? I have... repeatedly, visiting family and then courtesy of the US Army in the 80's. Your example is waaaay off base to rationalize a consitutional amendment.
Change is good... :D

p.s. Were you able to choose where you were born?

[seanR]

I agree with Gil,
I also am not a "natural-born citizen",
I was born in an Italian Hospital while my father was serving in the A.F.
I had no choice in where I was born,
I did have a choice in my citizenship, as a person with dual citizenship until I was 18, I chose the U.S.A.
I never did understand that part of the Constitution.
Weren't we all imigrants at one time or another?

[Boatwrench]

Gil,
I am not anti-immigrant and I guess you could read it that way.
I am against a change in the Constitution which is now only being brought up for Arnold's sake. It was good for the first 214 years.

I have traveled with the military also, it's an eye opener to go to other countries in central america and asia. The $3,000 (yes $3K) monthly pension recieved from the transit system allows folks to live in the top income brackets in a lot of countries and some states in the US. BTW the mechanics I spoke of are currently making about $28-$30 per hour.

Unfortunately as Sean pointed out, he is ineligible to be President also.

Tom

[DrMoab]

Gil,
I am not anti-immigrant and I guess you could read it that way.
I am against a change in the Constitution which is now only being brought up for Arnold's sake. It was good for the first 214 years.

I have traveled with the military also, it's an eye opener to go to other countries in central america and asia. The $3,000 (yes $3K) monthly pension recieved from the transit system allows folks to live in the top income brackets in a lot of countries and some states in the US. BTW the mechanics I spoke of are currently making about $28-$30 per hour.

Unfortunately as Sean pointed out, he is ineligible to be President also.

Tom
IF they changed the constitution they should change it to say that if you are born in a different country to a US serviceman then you can run for Press. I also am not anti-immigrant, and I also believe that it has worked for many years. I however don't think its fair that if your parents are both US born then you should be able to run. Not Arnold though.

[Yucca-Man]

It was good for the first 214 years.1776+214=1990. What's been going on the other 14 years?

I have traveled with the military also, it's an eye opener to go to other countries in central america and asia. The $3,000 (yes $3K) monthly pension recieved from the transit system allows folks to live in the top income brackets in a lot of countries and some states in the US. BTW the mechanics I spoke of are currently making about $28-$30 per hour.

Unfortunately as Sean pointed out, he is ineligible to be President also.

TomSean was born on US soil (Embassies and military bases are sovereign), so I believe he is actually eligible if that's what your comment was referring to. I don't see any reason to amend the Constitution just for Ahh-nold; but I have long been curious about why the Presidential candidate had to be natural-born and not a naturalized citizen. Then again, maybe there is a good assumption that naturalized citizens may have a bias in their dealings with the 'old country' whereas natural-born citizens theoretically would not.

[Lawn Cher']

Purely out of curiosity, do you Californians take your governor seriously? I think I would have a hard time listening to the Terminator as Commander-in-Chief without laughing... I start hearing Dana Carvey & Kevin Nealon's Hans & Franz characters from SNL.

[Darky]

I think Arnold might be cool as Pres, until the novelty wore off. Then we would really see what he's capable of, good or bad. I'm all for McCain as Pres. He isn't necessarily a "partisan" guy although he is republican. He endorsed both Bush and Kerry saying that they were ok and didn't try to bad mouth either one. While I despise Kerry and the fact he even had a chance at being President, that was a classy thing for McCain to do. Plus, I think he's proven his mettle as far as being able to handle a tough situation. I think the stress of the presidency would be nothing to him after being a POW. The other possibility I've heard of is Rudy Giuliani. I don't know too much about him, but from what I've heard he seems good too. Seems to have done a good job cleaning up NYC while he was mayor there.

[DrMoab]

I think Arnold might be cool as Pres, until the novelty wore off. Then we would really see what he's capable of, good or bad. I'm all for McCain as Pres. He isn't necessarily a "partisan" guy although he is republican. He endorsed both Bush and Kerry saying that they were ok and didn't try to bad mouth either one. While I despise Kerry and the fact he even had a chance at being President, that was a classy thing for McCain to do. Plus, I think he's proven his mettle as far as being able to handle a tough situation. I think the stress of the presidency would be nothing to him after being a POW. The other possibility I've heard of is Rudy Giuliani. I don't know too much about him, but from what I've heard he seems good too. Seems to have done a good job cleaning up NYC while he was mayor there.
How does McCain and Giuliani stand on Land issues and gun rights.
A republican can say he is a republican but if he don't stand behind the partys core values then he means nothing to me but someone to vote against. I know Arnold says he is a republican but I also know he is for gun control and he is a somewhat greenie. To me that makes him a NO I dont care what country he was born in.

[XJZ]

Purely out of curiosity, do you Californians take your governor seriously? I think I would have a hard time listening to the Terminator as Commander-in-Chief without laughing... I start hearing Dana Carvey & Kevin Nealon's Hans & Franz characters from SNL.

Can't say if I'm for Arnold ever being more than our Gov. but how can you not respect this man? He comes to the US with nothing more than he's 19 inch arms and his Speedo's. Look where he is today. He is the true American success story. Time as Governor will tell. But he is too green for me, feels he has to walk that bipartisan walk socially and ecologically.

Maybe he'll loosen up if he trades in his Hummer for a real offroad vehicle! ;)

[steve01XJ]

Just thinking...

If President Bush wins another term in office, do think the stage will be set for Hillary and her wife Bill to be back in the Whitehouse in 2008?

Fergie


No, this election just demonstrated that we will have to dumb down the Democratic message about 100 IQ points below that of the Clintons for the masses to comprehend it. Basically gotta find a way to advocate bigotry and guns.

[Darky]

I wonder how green he can really be owning more than one H1...:D
BTW his arms were a lot more than 19" while he was doing his Mr Olympia thing...they were somewhere in the mid-20's :eek:

[Gil BullyKatz]

No, this election just demonstrated that we will have to dumb down the Democratic message about 100 IQ points below that of the Clintons for the masses to comprehend it. Basically gotta find a way to advocate bigotry and guns.


Gotta love it...
I didn't want those stupid grapes anyway...

[CW]

No, this election just demonstrated that we will have to dumb down the Democratic message about 100 IQ points below that of the Clintons for the masses to comprehend it. Basically gotta find a way to advocate bigotry and guns.
Or maybe you have to realize that a majority of the American people don't agree with the Democratic platform. Kerry made the mistake of his platform boiling down to "Anyones better than Bush, and I'm anyone." The Clintons are a curse on our country. I was hopeing the Dems would contest the election, ruin their credibility and self destruct, leaving the door open for a more deserving party.

[Darky]

I've noticed one consistent trait of all the liberals I've seen on the net...they all have a very condescending, holier than thou attitude. They act as if the Demo party is the only logical choice and if you don't agree with them its obviously because you're a racist, sexist, homophobic moron who doesn't deserve to breathe the same air as they do. And they wonder why it is they lost the popular vote. And in a big way this year what with all the Reps and Sens lost plus the appointment of Supreme Court Justices to be occurring.

[red91]

No, this election just demonstrated that we will have to dumb down the Democratic message about 100 IQ points below that of the Clintons for the masses to comprehend it. Basically gotta find a way to advocate bigotry and guns.


so were going into NEGATIVE territory trying to inspire new DEMS???

This should be fun.

[XJZ]

I wonder how green he can really be owning more than one H1...:D
BTW his arms were a lot more than 19" while he was doing his Mr Olympia thing...they were somewhere in the mid-20's :eek:

...when he first came to the US. 21" later in his BB career, at least that's what he claimed.

[Boatwrench]

Yucca-man,
yeah my math was off, but only by three years. It should be 217. The U.S. Constitution was not ratified until Sept 1787. The Coast Guard was founded in 1790, thus the 214 years a number I use almost daily.

I don't understand the militray base thing...conventional wisdom would lead me to believe what you stated about bases & embassies. But as Sean poitned out he held dual citizenship and I know my nephew born at Clark AFB in the PI had to jump through some kind of bureaucratic hoop when he turned 18.

Tom

[steve01XJ]

I've noticed one consistent trait of all the liberals I've seen on the net...they all have a very condescending, holier than thou attitude. They act as if the Demo party is the only logical choice and if you don't agree with them its obviously because you're a racist, sexist, homophobic moron who doesn't deserve to breathe the same air as they do. And they wonder why it is they lost the popular vote. And in a big way this year what with all the Reps and Sens lost plus the appointment of Supreme Court Justices to be occurring.

And the problem with conservatives on the "internets" is that they can accuse us of being elitists, yet they never really deny the allegations about being bigots.

If the majority of voters in the country are intolerant bigots, and we really think that being an intolerant bigot is something not only to aspire to, but to codify in the law through the legislature and court appointments, I think it will be safe to say that the Republican dreams of an America that is only white, evangelical Christian, with men at work and women at home where they belong will come true and set this nation's true principles back fifty years.

More and more analysis of the election data is indicating that the Christian Right in this country was mobilized much like they were during Reagan's administration. Higher turnout on their part tipped the scales in Bush's favor. All Americans should be afraid of the potential for harm this holds if Bush acts on their agenda. If you are a true patriot, please read Federalist Paper number 10 and you might get a clue. Bonus points for those who know the author ( without having to look it up on the "internets" first ).

[Gridikal]

No, this election just demonstrated that we will have to dumb down the Democratic message about 100 IQ points below that of the Clintons for the masses to comprehend it. Basically gotta find a way to advocate bigotry and guns.or maybe the democrats could just appeal to the people that actually vote insted of the lazy arses that protest, rant and rave yet wouldnt get off the couch tuesday mourning

[Glenn B]

I guess I must not be a true patriot, according to you, as I never read Federalist Paper number 10.

Sounds like you are a sore loser, and that is too bad. Maybe you need to look at your party for the reasons you lost, instead of trying to poke at those that won. Perhaps a viable candidate would be a good start. :)

BTW.. nice jab with "internets". :speepin: Just like I laugh at your candidate for saying "idee-er" instead of "idea".
Glenn

And the problem with conservatives on the "internets" is that they can accuse us of being elitists, yet they never really deny the allegations about being bigots.

If the majority of voters in the country are intolerant bigots, and we really think that being an intolerant bigot is something not only to aspire to, but to codify in the law through the legislature and court appointments, I think it will be safe to say that the Republican dreams of an America that is only white, evangelical Christian, with men at work and women at home where they belong will come true and set this nation's true principles back fifty years.

More and more analysis of the election data is indicating that the Christian Right in this country was mobilized much like they were during Reagan's administration. Higher turnout on their part tipped the scales in Bush's favor. All Americans should be afraid of the potential for harm this holds if Bush acts on their agenda. If you are a true patriot, please read Federalist Paper number 10 and you might get a clue. Bonus points for those who know the author ( without having to look it up on the "internets" first ).

[steve01XJ]

Just as I thought - no denials on that intolerant bigot thing.

[Glenn B]

Just as I thought - no denials on that intolerant bigot thing.
No need to try to deny something that is simply a basesless accusation.

Look, I feel bad that your party lost. But you do not know me at all, so you can leave your accusations to yourself.

[Urban Redneck]

Just as I thought - no denials on that intolerant bigot thing.

So, using your logic, we can assume that all Democraps are Commies? Or lazy welfare check collectors? Or fat lying movie makers? People who say one thing than change their tune when they have to talk to another group who may not hold their far, far leftist views? I voted for it, before I voted against it. You see everyone on the Right as a bigot? Isn't that a bigotted statement to make? You should team up with Z22, with the two of you, you could solve the worlds problems...or something.

[jeeplas]

Just as I thought - no denials on that intolerant bigot thing.

Do you call someone who wants a ban on same sex marriage and abbortion an intolerant bigot?

You mentioned "white, evangelical Christian", where does racism come into the picture?

[Matthew Currie]

Glenn, I don't know why you should seem so proud of not having read the Federalist papers. It doesn't make you more or less of a patriot, but being better informed couldn't hurt.

I don't think the problem here is specifically one of abortion or gay marriage or whatever, but a very deep and very troubling issue of whether it's appropriate for the majority religion to set government policy and legislation. It isn't a matter of what's good, moral, right or righteous. The very definition of "faith" implies that you KNOW you're right, and often enough it's probably true. But there's a reason why the founding fathers, despite being far more in accord on religious values than we're used to today, took such pains to keep government secular.

[Glenn B]

What? I stated I have not read it, in responce to his statement about being a patriot. I am neither proud nor ashamed that I have never read it (that I remember anyhow). I may read it some day, but it has absolutely no bearing on my being a patriot or not.
Glenn, I don't know why you should seem so proud of not having read the Federalist papers. It doesn't make you more or less of a patriot, but being better informed couldn't hurt.

I don't think the problem here is specifically one of abortion or gay marriage or whatever, but a very deep and very troubling issue of whether it's appropriate for the majority religion to set government policy and legislation. It isn't a matter of what's good, moral, right or righteous. The very definition of "faith" implies that you KNOW you're right, and often enough it's probably true. But there's a reason why the founding fathers, despite being far more in accord on religious values than we're used to today, took such pains to keep government secular.

[CW]

No one voted and made it illeagal to be a homosexual. Those states that amended their constitutions clarified the meaning of marriage between a man and a women. I don't belive in government intervention in personal lives, but I don't see this as a huge issue. There are still civil unions. This election was a step in the right direction (no pun intended), in my opinion. I am a conservative not a Republican, I am not a bigget just because I am a white christian, and I have read the Federalists Papers and I know what our founding fathers had in mind when they set up this country and it is not what we currently have. The government has powers and influrnce now that it was never attended to have and many of the founding fathers feared political parties because they devide the country and take voices away from a large number of people. I would stop attacking the conservatives on the board it accomplishes nothing, if you really care about your party get involved. Write letters to your representatives, vote every chance you get and be logical in your arguements. I may not agree with you but I won't insult you and I will pray for John Edwards wife and her battle with cancer.

[steve01XJ]

What? I stated I have not read it, in responce to his statement about being a patriot. I am neither proud nor ashamed that I have never read it (that I remember anyhow). I may read it some day, but it has absolutely no bearing on my being a patriot or not.


Why even read something that might lead you to question your own beliefs? You might change your mind. MC is right when he says it is deeper than the individual issues. There is a great potential for the religious Christian right in this country to make policy based upon their religious values. And that goes much deeper than whether or not Bush or Kerry can speak properly.

When James Madison wrote Federalist #10, he spoke of the grave danger of granting too much authority to popular majorities, because of the potential it would have to fully quash the voice and rights of those factions or minority groups which have equal rights under the constitution.

"When a majority is included in a faction, the form of popular government, on the other hand, enables it to sacrifice to its ruling passion or interest both the public good and the rights of other citizens. To secure the public good and private rights against the danger of such a faction, and at the same time to preserve the spirit and the form of popular government, is then the great object to which our inquiries are directed."

"A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert result from the form of government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths."

VERY WISE WORDS.

[Glenn B]

I actually enjoy to read, when I have the luxury to have the time to do so. However, my beliefs are my beliefs. If they change or not is up to me.

If you fear these changes you speak of, you can take action. Start now, keep in contact with your Senators. It is not all up to one man, last I checked a few things still have to be passed in the Senate and the House? That will not be easy for the Dems, as the Repubs now have 55? However, (and my memory is foggy on this) it takes 60 to pass? If I were deeply concerned about things, that is where I would look to focus.

I am also proactive in my own way. Specifically with the Republicans Business Advisory Council. That is what I chose to get involved in.
Glenn
Why even read something that might lead you to question your own beliefs? You might change your mind. MC is right when he says it is deeper than the individual issues. There is a great potential for the religious Christian right in this country to make policy based upon their religious values. And that goes much deeper than whether or not Bush or Kerry can speak properly.

When James Madison wrote Federalist #10, he spoke of the grave danger of granting too much authority to popular majorities, because of the potential it would have to fully quash the voice and rights of those factions or minority groups which have equal rights under the constitution.

"When a majority is included in a faction, the form of popular government, on the other hand, enables it to sacrifice to its ruling passion or interest both the public good and the rights of other citizens. To secure the public good and private rights against the danger of such a faction, and at the same time to preserve the spirit and the form of popular government, is then the great object to which our inquiries are directed."

"A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert result from the form of government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths."

VERY WISE WORDS.

[Darky]

Steve, I want to know where you get this whole bigotted thing. What makes you say ...the Republican dreams of an America that is only white, evangelical Christian, with men at work and women at home where they belong... I guess I meet two of those requirements, almost. I am a Christian, but in my actions I am far from being evengelical. I never get up the courage to talk to people about my faith or theirs. I am also a man who works. But, I'm not white. My father is black, my mother is white, and on my father's side there is a trace of Cherokee Indian. IIRC, its almost enough (or maybe is) to apply for scholarships and such based on that heritage. My wife doesn't work right now, but its not because I told her she shouldn't. She just had a baby and wants to be home with the child until she starts school. If my wife were to decide to enter our baby in pre-school when she was old enough and then get a job, I would encourage her. I guess if I were to think like you, I could say that since you're a Democrat, you would lose respect for your wife if she didn't work. I mean come on women fought for years to get the rights they ahve now, how can she just let that go by sitting at home taking care of the kids. And you're probably black, maybe mexican because all us Republicans are white, and since you're colored you don't count. Hell, let's bring back the 3/5's rule right? I don't have a problem with democrats. But its people like you who **** me off. You say we call you elitists but don't deny it when you call us bigots. Well here it is: I am not bigotted. You are, however, an elitist piece of....anyways...your kind of thought process, taken to an extreme is what brought about people like Hitler. You think you're better than people like me, and its us republicans who are the root of all the world's problems. Sound familiar? And btw, the only post in recent memory that you've made in which you've made any sense was when you quoted James Madison.

[steve01XJ]

You think you're better than people like me, and its us republicans who are the root of all the world's problems. Sound familiar? And btw, the only post in recent memory that you've made in which you've made any sense was when you quoted James Madison.[/QUOTE]

This is where you miss my point. I don't think I am better than anyone. As a matter of fact, my whole point is that none of us is better than anyone else. But the republicans are dividing America based upon religion and values - denying people's rights to live their lives in the way they see fit - creating a society of exclusion. One where homosexuals cannot marry or share the same rights as others - one where stem cell research will be prohibited - one where dissenting voices or differeing tastes in humor will be banned from the libraries and the airwaves.

I feel that Democrats generally accept the principles of inclusion, whereby alternative lifestyles and differing values should not only be tolerated, but accepted. It is the diversity of this nation which gives it much of its strength. The freedom to pursue your religion and happiness in the way you see fit is at the cornerstone of our consititution. In my world, evangelical Christians are welcome to practice abstinence, pro-life agendas, to choose not to read, watch or listen to anything that offends them, to home school their kids, to refuse treatments derived from stem cell research, to move away from communities intolerant of homosexuals. If feeling this way makes me elitist, then I will proudly wear the label.

The question to me is which side does W most likely believe in? It is fundamentally un-American not to be an inclusive society.

[Urban Redneck]

I feel that Democrats generally accept the principles of inclusion, whereby alternative lifestyles and differing values should not only be tolerated, but accepted.


So, this is why they send Jesse Jackson running all over the place? The party of inclusion...that's pretty damn funny. IIRC, it is the Dems that are always crying, starting the race card, the homosexual card, the NAMBLA card. Why should I tolerate a party that is willing to kill an innocent child but let a murderer go? Here is an answer to your bigot question. I'm not a bigot, I hate everyone...equally. You mention not being able to tell a joke without offending anyone...the Dems started the PC craze. The one thing that EVERYONE needs to learn is that, while you may have the right to give your views, Moore, Franken or for that matter, Hannity and Limbaugh. Everyone else has the right not to listen to your view. I don't care if you protest the war, but if you get your ass kicked by the cops because you swing on them...don't cry to me about it. You can live any lifestyle you choose, don't throw it in my face. I don't care if you are gay, tell me once, fine, you're gay. Tell me more than one time, then I'm going to tell you that I'm hetro everytime I see you. The MAJORITY of people in the country spoke about gay marriage, not Bush. Get over it. Hetro people are the majority of America. I wouldn't call Dems the party of inclusion, rather the party of Misfit Toys... :gag:

[Steelerfan]

Arnold in '08!!
Arnold can't be president he wasn't born in the U.S.

[Urban Redneck]

Arnold can't be president he wasn't born in the U.S.


Here we go again....REPOST!

Hasta

[red91]

So, using your logic, we can assume that all Democraps are Commies? Or lazy welfare check collectors? Or fat lying movie makers? You should team up with Z22, with the two of you, you could solve the worlds problems...or something.

I never thought I'd see the day when you were right 4 times in a row.

I now have hope in a brighter future for all....

[Darky]

I don't think I am better than anyone
Your other posts would suggest otherwise...particularly this one:No, this election just demonstrated that we will have to dumb down the Democratic message about 100 IQ points below that of the Clintons for the masses to comprehend it. Basically gotta find a way to advocate bigotry and guns. Calling everyone who doesn't vote your way too dumb to see the wisdom of your views doesn't sound like you see everyone as equal.

If the majority of voters in the country are intolerant bigots, and we really think that being an intolerant bigot is something not only to aspire to, but to codify in the law through the legislature and court appointments, I think it will be safe to say that the Republican dreams of an America that is only white, evangelical Christian, with men at work and women at home where they belong will come true and set this nation's true principles back fifty years. And I guess right here you're not calling everyone who takes a stand for what they believe to be right that is different than you (which would appear to be a large chunk of America based on the 11 states that just banned gay marriage and the re-election of Bush) a bigot? Agree with you and we can be enlightened, disagree and we're ignorant bigots.

Why even read something that might lead you to question your own beliefs? [QUOTE] You're so good you read everything whether it follows your belief or not whereas Glenn, I might is a much more respected person around here than you, is blissfully ignorant and happy to stay that way. BTW check out this site (http://www.angryfinger.org/archives/politics/election_2004/index.html). You'll find some posts by a guy named Justin. that's me. I frequent that site even though I don't agree. I think its good to hear from all sides. If you agree, check out this site (http://kerry-04.org).

[QUOTE]But the republicans are dividing America based upon religion and values - denying people's rights to live their lives in the way they see fit - creating a society of exclusion. One where homosexuals cannot marry or share the same rights as others - one where stem cell research will be prohibited - one where dissenting voices or differeing tastes in humor will be banned from the libraries and the airwaves. But the republicans are dividing America based upon religion and values - denying people's rights to live their lives in the way they see fit - creating a society of exclusion. One where homosexuals cannot marry or share the same rights as others - one where stem cell research will be prohibited - one where dissenting voices or differeing tastes in humor will be banned from the libraries and the airwaves. How is stem cell research infringing on anyone's rights? Stem cell research is all well and good, kinda, but it'd only be a matter of time before some scientist would start working on cloning a human using the knowledge they gained or something. It could also cause an increase in the number of aborted fetuses and the harvesting of fetuses which is just plain wrong. I know those are fairly extreme examples, but its just kind of an idea of what might happen. As has already been noted by someone else, its you Dems who keep bringing up the race issue. Its you who keeps trying to blame our problems on Christians while saying that Muslims can do no wrong, unless they're those evil fundamentalist terrorist guys. I don't think Muslims are bad either, but I also don't think they're any better, or any worse than us Christians. Its not a matter us vs them, they have lived and worshipped happily and freely here for years. Now security's a little tighter and there's more attention paid to them. Is it fair? Not really, I think it sucks, but I can also see the purpose behind it. A radical fundamentalist Muslim looks just like an average peace-loving Muslim. So in order to differentiate, they gotta ask a few questions and such. I think a major problem with your party is the doom and gloom you try to accuse Republicans of. "Oh this country's going to hell, the end is near, did I just hear an iceberg melt a little more? Damn those republicans its all their fault...etc"

[Urban Redneck]

I never thought I'd see the day when you were right 4 times in a row.

I now have hope in a brighter future for all....

The sun shines up a dogs ass every now and then....

[red91]

I now KNOW we have enough hot air in here to float our :NAXJA: hot air baloon.

Beezil can give 30 minute rides in it as he shoots at things from the basket.

[Darky]

dead squirrels everywhere...as he drops M80s on them marked Death From Above

Beezil can give 30 minute rides in it as he shoots at things from the basket.

[Matthew Currie]

I don't think it's a matter of who is bigoted, or who is good or bad, or who is right and righteous, but whether the religious beliefs of the current majority should be indelibly incorporated into the laws and the constitution of the government. Many people believe they should, because they so firmly believe that they are right, and because the beliefs they are pushing are so widely held. Many do not, not because those beliefs are wrong, but because the tilt toward theocracy is dangerous and divisive, and because if history is anything to go by, it's pretty sure eventually to bite us in the butt.

Just as a thought exercise, imagine that we do succeed in desecularizing the government, making the values of the current Christian consensus the basis for legislation on marriage, abortion, the content of literature and other media, and the teaching of science. These are all issues that are current, and contested, and if you agree only with the first two, think again now, because the rest is coming. Now fast forward a few years, when current minorites, more prolific than today's white, evangelical Christian Protestant majority, have taken the lead. Are you sure you're really ready for the laws they would like to impose? Can you even guess what they'll be? Even if you're sure it will never happen, you need to think about whether your attitude toward religion in government would remain the same if the majority religion were Islam, or Wicca, or Scientology.

When we overthrew the Taliban, it was to us, and to most of the world, a war against terror and oppression and tyranny. Remember, though, that to them, it was a war against their religious beliefs. What they did they did with the utter, complete assurance of faith that they were doing the right and holy thing. That's an extreme example, of course, so don't get your panties in a twist thinking I'm calling anybody here Taliban. But my point is that even if the Taliban were totally, completely, provably correct in their religious beliefs, they were still guilty of terror, oppression and tyranny. Sometimes it is not enough to be right!

[red91]

The sun shines up a dogs ass every now and then....


leave XJGUY and Z22_Z33 out of this.

[Darky]

Matthew: I see where you're going with this, but at the same time I disagree on those issues necessarily being strictly religious. I believe life starts long before birth, not because of my religious beliefs but because I value life. Having my first kid just reinforced that. While she was still only 3-4 months old in the womb, she would brush against my wife's stomach only to immediately poke that same spot again when I touched it. If I poked her in there she would almost immediately poke back in the same spot. Now to those who believe in abortion, 3-4 months is still well within a reasonable timeframe to kill that child, but my daughter was responsive to external stimuli even then. I oppose abortion completely in the issues of rape and incest and especially with the girls who get pregnant and don't want a baby yet. That last one comes back to personal responsibility. Should've used protection or been abstinate if you don't want a kid yet. Rape and incest, those aren't necessarily the woman's fault (definitely not rape) but its the not the kid's fault either. Bring the baby to term and then give him/her up for adoption. I had a friend in high school who had sex, got pregnant and gave the baby up for adoption. She made one couple who couldn't conceive very happy. She got to pick the family and everything. I struggle over the issue of a mother's life being in danger. I don't want to condemn her to death, but don't want to kill the baby either. As a Christian I'd say God will take care of it and whatever happens will be for the best, but the wordly side (yes, that side never dies it is only shut up) says but what if she dies?? I can't make a stand on that since I don't really have a clear stand to take...I don't want to see the government turned into a religious run excercise, but at the same time I think the nation could benefit from a little bit of morality and a clear definition of right and wrong. I forgot the name of the philosophy but it basically says that there are no absolutes. What's right for me might be wrong for you. Who are we to call anyone's ideas wrong? By that philosophy, Hitler didn't do anything wrong. That is where I fear too many people are trying to take this country, to a belief that there is no such thing as right or wrong.

[steve01XJ]

Inlcusion and science - Democrats
Exclusion and religion - Republicans

Fairly simple choice. Our nation was made up of groups of people who were kicked out of their country for being dissenters, and I thought we valued the fact that we let those people live their lives here.

Nowhere do I advocate taking away the rights of Republicans to do what they want to do.

Nowhere did I say Muslims do no wrong - yes, they should be scrutinzed right now, but not without the benefit of due process - especially if they are American citizens. Funny how for all for the tough talk about this issue, Bush will admit record numbers of them on work visas for tech jobs to work for an average 20% less salary, but won't train his own people who are out of work to fill these jobs.

Take my remarks about bigotry any way you want to. I contend that if you voted for Bush, you have enabled a bigot's agenda, and I will stand by that as a fact. What that made you by voting for Bush I will let you decide.

As for whether or not I think I am better than those who voted for Bush, I do not think I am better, just more enlightened and better educated.

That's OK, in the end I will be right. We will see higher interest rates, higher inflation, expensive oil, stagnant job growth, a continued widening of the rich/poor gap, and a whacked social agenda which after the next four years will wake enough people up to make a change. I also predict that after eight years of Bush, whoever the next Democratic president is will somehow be blamed for it all, and being unable to fix it fast enough.

[red91]

That's OK, in the end I will be right. We will see higher interest rates, higher inflation, expensive oil, stagnant job growth, a continued widening of the rich/poor gap, and a whacked social agenda which after the next four years will wake enough people up to make a change. After eight years of Clinton, President Bush will somehow be blamed for it all, and be unable to fix it fast enough.
This post has been altered to reflect my views, like it or not.

Damn skippy. Except he's doing his best to fix it not blame other people.

P.S. Robert Redford said he'd move to Ireland if Bush was elected. I'm waiting for him to take his sorry ass outta here...

[Urban Redneck]

I contend that if you voted for Bush, you have enabled a bigot's agenda, and I will stand by that as a fact.
Oh, please enlighten us with your wisdom, oh Great One. :worship:


As for whether or not I think I am better than those who voted for Bush, I do not think I am better, just more enlightened and better educated.

That's OK, in the end I will be right. We will see higher interest rates, higher inflation, expensive oil, stagnant job growth, a continued widening of the rich/poor gap, and a whacked social agenda which after the next four years will wake enough people up to make a change. I also predict that after eight years of Bush, whoever the next Democratic president is will somehow be blamed for it all, and being unable to fix it fast enough.

Better educated? REALLY. So, you know the education levels of all the members on this board or members of the Republican Party? Funny, if history tells us anything, high interest rates, inflation, high oil prices, stagnant job growth and all the other things you listed were the norm under Carter. Reagan fixed those problems.

[Gil BullyKatz]

Just as I thought - no denials on that intolerant bigot thing.

So where the Frell do I fit in, Mr Pigeonhole?

I'm of Latin and Native American descent,

I'm a practicing Pagan,

I'm in the economic middle class,

I'm against gun control (unless you're talking about a two-handed grip),

I'm pro-choice,

and I'm an equal opportunity bigot, I just hope Darwin's Law would be more widespread.

quit your "generalizing"... and learn to get along with those with different views from yours...

[Darky]

I'm sorry all I heard was blah blah blah I'm better than you...
As for whether or not I think I am better than those who voted for Bush, I do not think I am better, just more enlightened and better educated, and better looking too.
There ya go, I added in the last part of what you meant to say.

BTW the way you're really showing off your better education with your spelling errors every time you post.

[Glenn B]

I cannot help but think that he is 16, fed with a silver spoon, and his teachers are sore about losing the election.

Just my take.
I'm sorry all I heard was blah blah blah I'm better than you...

There ya go, I added in the last part of what you meant to say.

BTW the way you're really showing off your better education with your spelling errors every time you post.

[Darky]

That wouldn't be surprising...he never seems to make a logical argument. He hurts the stance of Democrats like Matthew Currie who at least put in the effort to make a logical case and not just spout random crap...

[Urban Redneck]

Maybe it is Z22's brother....

[red91]

We are currently taking bets on who can kick whos' ass in a debate, or otherwise.

Condoleeza Rice or Steve01XJ. Word of advise...insider betting tip listed below.

She's a "sister" and a bigot ?? Boy this should be good.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/ricebio.html

PLACE YOUR BETS NOW!!!

My money is on the LADY!!!

[steve01XJ]

Better educated? REALLY. So, you know the education levels of all the members on this board or members of the Republican Party? Funny, if history tells us anything, high interest rates, inflation, high oil prices, stagnant job growth and all the other things you listed were the norm under Carter. Reagan fixed those problems.[/QUOTE]


Yes - better educated. Age 40, BA Poli Sci Georgetown 1986, MBA DePaul 1994. Oldest of five kids - son of a union carpenter and Vietnam Vet- no silver spoons.

BTW, Reagan did not turn the economy around. Even an economist like Milton Friedman would agree that Jimmy Carter's appointment of Paul Volcker to the chairmanship of the Federal Reserve in 1979 was the single greatest contributing factor to the turnaround in the US economy in the 1980s. His regulation of the money supply bled inflation out of the economy during a painful recession, and it was not until prices stabilized that interest rates began to fall, and growth followed.

[Matthew Currie]

Matthew: I see where you're going with this, but at the same time I disagree on those issues necessarily being strictly religious. I believe life starts long before birth, not because of my religious beliefs but because I value life. Having my first kid just reinforced that. While she was still only 3-4 months old in the womb, she would brush against my wife's stomach only to immediately poke that same spot again when I touched it. If I poked her in there she would almost immediately poke back in the same spot. Now to those who believe in abortion, 3-4 months is still well within a reasonable timeframe to kill that child, but my daughter was responsive to external stimuli even then. I oppose abortion completely in the issues of rape and incest and especially with the girls who get pregnant and don't want a baby yet. That last one comes back to personal responsibility. Should've used protection or been abstinate if you don't want a kid yet. Rape and incest, those aren't necessarily the woman's fault (definitely not rape) but its the not the kid's fault either. Bring the baby to term and then give him/her up for adoption. I had a friend in high school who had sex, got pregnant and gave the baby up for adoption. She made one couple who couldn't conceive very happy. She got to pick the family and everything. I struggle over the issue of a mother's life being in danger. I don't want to condemn her to death, but don't want to kill the baby either. As a Christian I'd say God will take care of it and whatever happens will be for the best, but the wordly side (yes, that side never dies it is only shut up) says but what if she dies?? I can't make a stand on that since I don't really have a clear stand to take...I don't want to see the government turned into a religious run excercise, but at the same time I think the nation could benefit from a little bit of morality and a clear definition of right and wrong. I forgot the name of the philosophy but it basically says that there are no absolutes. What's right for me might be wrong for you. Who are we to call anyone's ideas wrong? By that philosophy, Hitler didn't do anything wrong. That is where I fear too many people are trying to take this country, to a belief that there is no such thing as right or wrong.

Well, I see your point, but I still think you're missing mine, and that some questions, even those with answers that you believe to be absolute, are not answered by government, and although you don't believe your choices represent a religious agenda, others do, including, I believe, those whom you are choosing to lead. Since you bring up Hitler, I might point out that many Germans accepted, or even signed on to National Socialism, because it answered some of their needs and their fears. They ignored the nasty bits, figuring they could control it later. They were wrong. I know I'm in a minority, and I may be wrong, in fact I hope I am, but I believe that although the majority of people who support the current administration are not religious radicals, and aren't looking to alter the fundamental character of the United States, they are signing on to a much deeper and further reaching agenda than they think, which will be very hard to control, and if it goes too far, very hard to undo. I'll leave it at that. Nothing would make me happier than, 20 years from now being remembered as some alarmist nutcase. We'll see.

"Those days we slept in a trumpet.
Backward and forward we dreamed,
avenues, symmetrically planted.
On a tranquil unending back
we lay against that arch,
and never dreamed it would sound." (Gunter Grass)

[Gridikal]

I think the progress of science should be limited on some issues. When it's all said and done IF we ever get this stem cell thing to save lives- (which we are still years away from doing) if we were to look back and see the ratio of how many died to save one life- personally it would send a shiver down my spine- Ive always thought the needs of the many outweighed the needs of the few, and just because the many dont have a voice does not give a few people the right to decide that their life is more important than unborn children. I dont think it should have anything to do with religion as an example: picture the dodo bird (stay with me here lol) the head dodo bird say to the the younger ones that they have to jump off a cliff so that he can survive and this coninues and continues- what eventually happens? (obviously our situation is no where near this exreme but my point is mother nature dosent approve.) ... Gay marraige? no. how bout civil unions? sure give it to em so they'll shut up, get their benefits and quit buggin us about it, their going to do it whether we like it or not, I just think marraige should be protected.

[Lou]

...... Nothing would make 55 million of us happier than, 20 years from now being remembered as some alarmist nutcases. Fixed it for you.

[Brian Felts]

I could not support the terminator as Prez.He is an admitted liberal on moral issues.I throw my support to McCain or Senator Bill Frist of tennessee.

[Urban Redneck]

I could not support the terminator as Prez.He is an admitted liberal on moral issues.I throw my support to McCain or Senator Bill Frist of tennessee.


If it's a choice between Arnold and Billary...I'd take the Terminator in a heartbeat.

[red91]

not me... I'm voting for George Bush again...after all he WASEN'T elected the first time he got into office, so TECHNICALLY, he should be able to run for a 2nd term.

This is the FIRST time he has been elected, using the democratic theory.

[Darky]

Isn't it a 3 term limit anyways? So even counting the first term, he still has one more to go...
I think its funny that a guy will go out and get a Bachelor's in Political Science and an undisclosed MBA and all of a sudden he's better educated than everyone else out there. A degree is something to proud of, I aspire to one myself someday (I'm only 22 and chose the Marine Corps over college, although I am going to start working on an Associate's here soon. Hopefully have it done before I get out), but a degree is all book smarts. You can take the most well educated person and put them in a situation that wasn't covered by their classes, and they'll be just as screwed as someone who has no education, unless you have some good instincts/street smarts. I personally think that's more important, the ability to think on your feet.

[Fergie]

Here is my question for you Steve:

Is it bigotry, or the willingness to stand up for what you believe?

Why in the world do I need to accept someone that is different? There are certain things that all people deserve, and I give them the respect that I can provide. I will not condone homosexuality, abortion and other things that go against my Christian values.

And here is something for you to chew on. I have only been a Christian for a few years. For most of my life I was the exact opposite. I could not stand it when people preached to me. How dare they try and exercise their views on me! However, when you are 1000' over the Friar DZ, and you see what kind of intelligence the Riggers have, you dont have much faith in people. All I wanted at the door of that plane was to get home to my wife, fiancee then, and that is when I turned to God. When you face the fact that you and a good amount of your friends wont be around in 5 years, there is a lot of fear in your life. I turned to God, and I am not afaid to die anymore.

People pressed me all my life about religion and God, and I fought back and denied it. When I was ready, God was there. I will never preach to someone. If they have questions about God, they can ask me, and I will tell them my story. God is always there, and will always accept you.

Fergie

[CW]

Isn't it a 3 term limit anyways? So even counting the first term, he still has one more to go...
.Nope, there is a ten year limit to cover the cases when a vp takes office halfway through a term and is then elected to two terms after.