Liability Issues

I have searched and read what is out there for "liability" and was wondering if anyone has had direct experience with or has some professional insight into the following:
Been doing installs and the like for a few years now, sometimes the willing participant helps alot, somethines not so much. I am always asked for my opinion, etc. I am getting into doing gears now and for some reason this has raised the liability issue with me again. Am I liable for something gone wrong with a lift I helped install? What about gears, etc? Does it change if I take money? Whether I am incorporated or not? What about a "waiver to liability" document (like the ones I'm sure we've all signed before to wheel). Lookin for help here as I want to help out my fellow jeeper, especially in my club, but don't want my good deeds punished so to speak.

Thanks!

p

Talk over professional liability with your insurance agent. This covers liabilities in you "profession" as opposed to business liability where someone trips on your rug.

If you're taking money for it, expect to need it.

Typically when somebody pays you to do a job, you are considered "the expert". As such, they rely on your expertise to complete the job in a safe and reliable fashion. As Jeff pointed out, look for insurance.

Of course, even if no money changes hands, you "could" always be sued. In theory, you can be sued for just about anything.

I would not let that stop you from enjoying the sport, lift parties, etc.....
Glenn

Just going by what is required in AZ, so it may change in VA. If you perform any work over $750, mat/lab/eqp, then you need to bonded, licensed and insured. To add to that, any work over 10'x10' requires a building permit, and must be seperated from other work by 30'. That way you cant skirt around the permit by building in 10'x10' sections and calling them seperate.

The way a lawyer may look at it is this: Do you owe the person a duty? So yes, it will change if you take money and your best bet is to find a lawyer to help you out.

Fergie

we live in a sad, sad world. that is all.

It is not the world that is sad, IMHO. It is people that bring idiotic torts, and a system that makes lawyers rich while taking advantage of idiots.

The problems with lawyers are anyone can become one. I've had some interesting dealings with attorneys over the past several years … it explains the dysfunction with our legal system.


Back on topic … here's a real-life scenario to consider:

My best friend in high school bought a local off-road supply shop in the late 70's, and owned it through the mid 90's. He and Cepek were the only guys around during that time … but Cepek did installations. So, he decided to expand and provide installations on the products he sold … and fabricated. He had a sharp guy working in the shop at the time … name was Dave, the current owner of Fabtech.

Back in the mid 90's before he lost his shop, my buddy told me he was having problems keeping good help … that Dave had moved on to start his own business and compete with him. He said he got lucky on one recent job he did for a customer … thought they had everything buttoned-up before sending him on his way.

On the way home as the customer was traveling down the freeway during rush hour … he pitched a tire off the rig and it bounced across the center divider narrowly missing oncoming traffic.

Did he need liability insurance? Yep, you better believe it … especially when you work on anything that can kill someone.

Thanks for scaring the pi$$ outta me! Seriously, I'm not out to make money. Its like anything I just want to do it myself and help others. It is sad in a way that we even have to worry about this stuff, but that's life. I mean can you guys even count the # of jeeps you've modified, etc....not me.

P

xxxj-va said:

Thanks for scaring the pi$$ outta me! Seriously, I'm not out to make money. Its like anything I just want to do it myself and help others. It is sad in a way that we even have to worry about this stuff, but that's life. I mean can you guys even count the # of jeeps you've modified, etc....not me.

P

Click to expand...

I hear ya ... and friends are suppose to be friends too. But sometimes things are overlooked and accidents happen. Would it happen to you ? I don't know, but whatever you do make sure you do a good job it and nothing falls off.

Fun being in business, HUH?

If you are just doing it for friends you most likely will never have a problem.

If you are seeking work out, advertising / shop / doing it as your occupation you really should get liability insurance. Its just a CYA.

Now if you have nothing of value and would be a waste of time to try and get blood from the turnip don't worry about it.

The best thing is to do it yourself, don't hire people, and make sure you do it right.

Every single install problem I ever had an issue with, back at the shop, was always done by an employee!

hinkley

Standard disclaimer: IANAL.

However, I am a "professional," at least in the eyes of three states. "Professional" liability applies only to work categories the states consider to be "learned professions," such as doctors, lawyers, attorneys, engineers, etc. It does not apply to automotive technicians.

That does not mean you aren't liable for problems associated with, resulting from, or caused by your work. It just means it isn't "professional" liability. The insurance you would need is premises and operations insurance, and it ain't cheap.

Each state is different, but as a general rule I would expect that once you accept money for doing work you cross some kind of a line. Once money changes hands, you are no longer a friend helping out a friend, you are now a tradesman performing work for hire. Unless accepting even small amounts of money bring you into the purview of shop licensing in your state, my IANAL guess is that without accepting money you would not be legally liable if you installed gears for a friend and botched the job, causing them to burn up. He would likely take you to small claims court, and if you had a waiver he signed acknowledging that you are not a professional mechanic and you did the install for free to help him, you might walk away. I don't think this would be the case if you accepted payment for labor.

The bigger issue is if there should be an accident involving personal injury or, God forbid, even a death. Like maybe you install a lift and do something dumb like put the rear spring plates on sideways, causing the centering pins to shear and the spring packs to fall apart on the highway (ask Paula "PhunkadelicXJ" if you think this is impossible), resulting in the driver and three friends being killed. If anyone knows who installed the lift, expect them to come after you with fire in their eyes and ambulance-chasing attorneys in trail. In this instance, I don't think it would matter whether or not you had accepted payment.

I also don't know if incorporation would help. I know as a professional that incorporation only protects me from ordinary business debts, like if I don't bother to pay the phone bill for 6 months. The phone company can't come after me personally to collect the company's phone bill. However, if I design something that fails, it's professional negligence and incorporation does NOT shield a professional from liability for professional negligence.

"Am I liable for something gone wrong with a lift I helped install?"

Maybe. It depends on how a judge and/or jury interprets it. The more "help" you offered, and the more you held yourself out as an expert at installing lifts, the more likely you are to be held liable. Same thing for gears.

"Does it change if I take money?"

Yes, almost certainly. Taking money for the work you do implies a degree of professionalism. You are, in essence, holding yourself out as more of an expert. Hence, more liability.

"Whether I am incorporated or not?"

Incorporation would not help even a little bit in this kind of scenario.

"What about a 'waiver to liability' document"

Most are not worth the paper they're printed on, even many written by lawyers who ought to know better. If you want to try and get out of liability by using a waiver you need to have it written by a lawyer with a lot of experience in liability cases like the ones you might be facing. Then be sure he's written waiver documents in the past that have held up in court. This, of course, will cost you a butt-load of money.

Or, just hope for the best and forget about it. Do you have enough assets that you really need to worry about it? Do you have an umbrella policy that would cover you?