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Dems pulling out all the stops...

RichP

NAXJA Forum User
Location
Effort, Pa
I find it interesting that they are going to the extreme lengths they are going to to prevent sinclair broadcasting from showing the kerry tapes of his anti-war feelings to the public, really material that is public record. Makes me want to see them even more. They have done some nasty stuff to the broadcasting company and it's stockholders that I find myself very uncomfortable with and that border on administrative and legal terrorism. What do they, Kerry, have to hide ??
 
The Democratic party sees that they are circling the drain. They will get even more deperate I am sure.
 
Its all politics.
The democrats see you republicans as doing the samething you think democarts are doing.
Right now everything is what, in a dead heat,? So both sides are going to pull out all the stops.
 
Rebeldawg said:
Is it possible that the video may be some what biased?

Not seen it, as I understand it it is just the running of a video/film camera during kerry testimony before congress, if it's biased then I'd have to say he biased it.... like I said before, with all the threats going on by the people who want it stopped I'd kinda like to see what he had to say now..
 
RichP said:
Not seen it, as I understand it it is just the running of a video/film camera during kerry testimony before congress, if it's biased then I'd have to say he biased it.... like I said before, with all the threats going on by the people who want it stopped I'd kinda like to see what he had to say now..
Here is a readable version of what he said. Got it from this site
John Kerry said:
Thank you very much, Senator Fulbright, Senator Javits, Senator Symington and Senator Pell.

I would like to say for the record, and also for the men sitting behind me who are also wearing the uniforms and their medals, that my sitting here is really symbolic. I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of a group of 1,000, which is a small representation of a very much larger group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table, they would be here and have the same kind of testimony. I would simply like to speak in general terms. I apologize if my statement is general because I received notification [only] yesterday that you would hear me, and, I am afraid, because of the injunction I was up most of the night and haven't had a great deal of chance to prepare.

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago, in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents, but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis, with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit--the emotions in the room, and the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told stories that, at times, they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam,in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

We call this investigation the Winter Soldier Investigation. The term "winter soldier" is a play on words of Thomas Paine's in 1776, when he spoke of the "sunshine patriots," and "summertime soldiers" who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.

We who have come here to Washington have come here because we feel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country, we could be quiet, we could hold our silence, we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel, because of what threatens this country, not the reds, but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out.

I would like to talk to you a little bit about what the result is of the feelings these men carry with them after coming back from Vietnam. The country doesn't know it yet, but it has created a monster, a monster in the form of millions of men who have been taught to deal and to trade in violence, and who are given the chance to die for the biggest nothing in history; men who have returned with a sense of anger and a sense of betrayal which no one has yet grasped.

As a veteran and one who felt this anger, I would like to talk about it. We are angry because we feel we have been used it the worst fashion by the administration of this country.

In 1970, at West Point, Vice President Agnew said, "some glamorize the criminal misfits of society while our best men die in Asian rice paddies to preserve the freedom which most of those misfits abuse," and this was used as a rallying point for our effort in Vietnam.

But for us, as boys in Asia whom the country was supposed to support, his statement is a terrible distortion from which we can only draw a very deep sense of revulsion. Hence the anger of some of the men who are here in Washington today. It is a distortion because we in no way consider ourselves the best men of this country, because those he calls misfits were standing up for us in a way that nobody else in this country dared to, because so many who have died would have returned to this country to join the misfits in their efforts to ask for an immediate withdrawal from South Vietnam, because so many of those best men have returned as quadriplegics and amputees, and they lie forgotten in Veterans' Administration hospitals in this country which fly the flag which so many have chosen as their own personal symbol. And we cannot consider ourselves America's best men when we are ashamed of and hated what we were called on to do in Southeast Asia.

In our opinion, and from our experience, there is nothing in South Vietnam which could happen that realistically threatens the United States of America. And to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia, or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom, which those misfits supposedly abuse, is to us the height of criminal hypocrisy, and it is that kind of hypocrisy which we feel has torn this country apart.

We found that not only was it a civil war, an effort by a people who had for years been seeking their liberation from any colonial influence whatsoever, but, also, we found that the Vietnamese, whom we had enthusiastically molded after our own image, were hard-put to take up the fight against the threat we were supposedly saving them from.

We found most people didn't even know the difference between communism and democracy. They only wanted to work in rice paddies without helicopters strafing them and bombs with napalm burning their villages and tearing their country apart. They wanted everything to do with the war, particularly with this foreign presence of the United States of America, to leave them alone in peace, and they practiced the art of survival by siding with whichever military force was present at a particular time, be it Viet Cong, North Vietnamese or American.

We found also that, all too often, American men were dying in those rice paddies for want of support from their allies. We saw first hand how monies from American taxes were used for a corrupt dictatorial regime. We saw that many people in this country had a one-sided idea of who was kept free by the flag, and blacks provided the highest percentage of casualties. We saw Vietnam ravaged equally by American bombs and search-and-destroy missions as well as by Viet Cong terrorism, - and yet we listened while this country tried to blame all of the havoc on the Viet Cong.

We rationalized destroying villages in order to save them. We saw America lose her sense of morality as she accepted very coolly a My Lai, and refused to give up the image of American soldiers who hand out chocolate bars and chewing gum.

We learned the meaning of free-fire zones--shooting anything that moves--and we watched while America placed a cheapness on the lives of orientals.

We watched the United States falsification of body counts, in fact the glorification of body counts. We listened while, month after month, we were told the back of the enemy was about to break. We fought using weapons against "oriental human beings" with quotation marks around that. We fought using weapons against those people which I do not believe this country would dream of using, were we fighting in the European theater. We watched while men charged up hills because a general said that hill has to be taken, and, after losing one platoon, or two platoons, they marched away to leave the hill for reoccupation by the North Vietnamese. We watched pride allow the most unimportant battles to be blown into extravaganzas, because we couldn't lose, and we couldn't retreat, and because it didn't matter how many American bodies were lost to prove that point, and so there were Hamburger Hills and Khe Sanhs and Hill 81s and Fire Base 6s, and so many others.

Now we are told that the men who fought there must watch quietly while American lives are lost so that we can exercise the incredible arrogance of "Vietnamizing" the Vietnamese.

Each day, to facilitate the process by which the United States washes her hands of Vietnam, someone has to give up his life so that the United States doesn't have to admit something that the entire world already knows, so that we can't say that we have made a mistake. Someone has to die so that President Nixon won't be, and these are his words, "the first President to lose a war."

We are asking Americans to think about that, because how do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake? We are here in Washington to say that the problem of this war is not just a question of war and diplomacy. It is part and parcel of everything that we are trying, as human beings, to communicate to people in this country--the question of racism, which is rampant in the military, and so many other questions, such as the use of weapons: the hypocrisy in our taking umbrage at the Geneva Conventions and using that as justification for a continuation of this war, when we are more guilty than any other body of violations of those Geneva Conventions; in the use of free-fire zones; harassment-interdiction fire, search-and-destroy missions; the bombings; the torture of prisoners; all accepted policy by many units in South Vietnam. That is what we are trying to say. It is part and parcel of everything.

An American Indian friend of mine who lives in the Indian Nation of Alcatraz put it to me very succinctly: He told me how, as a boy on an Indian reservation, he had watched television, and he used to cheer the cowboys when they came in and shot the Indians, and then suddenly one day he stopped in Vietnam and he said, "my God, I am doing to these people the very same thing that was done to my people," and he stopped. And that is what we are trying to say, that we think this thing has to end.

We are here to ask, and we are here to ask vehemently, where are the leaders of our country? Where is the leadership? We're here to ask where are McNamara, Rostow, Bundy, Gilpatrick, and so many others? Where are they now that we, the men they sent off to war, have returned? These are the commanders who have deserted their troops. And there is no more serious crime in the laws of war. The Army says they never leave their wounded. The Marines say they never even leave their dead. These men have left all the casualties and retreated behind a pious shield of public rectitude. They've left the real stuff of their reputations bleaching behind them in the sun in this country....

We wish that a merciful God could wipe away our own memories of that service as easily as this administration has wiped away their memories of us. But all that they have done, and all that they can do by this denial, is to make more clear than ever our own determination to undertake one last mission: To search out and destroy the last vestige of this barbaric war; to pacify our own hearts; to conquer the hate and fear that have driven this country these last ten years and more. And more. And so, when, thirty years from now, our brothers go down the street without a leg, without an arm, or a face, and small boys ask why, we will be able to say "Vietnam" and not mean a desert, not a filthy obscene memory, but mean instead where America finally turned, and where soldiers like us helped it in the turning.
 
Now Kerry is running around blaming Bush for the Flu shot shortage. Good example of throw anything out there and see what sticks...lousy Democraps.
 
Urban Redneck said:
Now Kerry is running around blaming Bush for the Flu shot shortage. Good example of throw anything out there and see what sticks...lousy Democraps.

And Bush has blamed the shortage on lawsuits. What's your point?
 
dbxj said:
And Bush has blamed the shortage on lawsuits. What's your point?


The point is that the shortage stems largely from lawsuits against drug manufacturers, lawsuits brought about by people like Edwards, which make them millions of dollars, of course kerry/edwards wont admit it is the fault of there brethren, so they try to place the blame on the other side, even if it is entirely untrue
 
awspence said:
The point is that the shortage stems largely from lawsuits against drug manufacturers, lawsuits brought about by people like Edwards, which make them millions of dollars, of course kerry/edwards wont admit it is the fault of there brethren, so they try to place the blame on the other side, even if it is entirely untrue

Yes, lawsuits are one of the MANY reasons, but not the largest reason. The shortage stems from there being no money to be made when it comes to producing flu shots, so most companies have simply stopped producing them.

The government has taken a fairly hands off approach by allowing market forces to dictate supply. That works out great for the few suppliers that have stuck it out and continue to produce the vaccine, but now we lose one of those suppliers and the government has a public health crisis (some say) on their hands. Should something that protects public health and safety be left soley to free market?

Beats me, but my point was that it's easy for each side to blame the other side because they both pretty much dropped the ball on this one.
 
Make you a deal - if we (Democrats) stop the pressure brought upon Sinclair Broadcasting for wanting to air their anti-Kerry documentary, will the minions of the Right allow Farenheit 911 to air as was scehduled on pay per view election eve?

I didn't think so.

Let's face it, this election is going to be down and dirty to the end, and no one side will have hands any cleaner than the other. This is what our politics have been reduced to.

Just remember that the Fox News', the Limbaughs, and the Hannitys of the world have been the catalyst for this downward spiral of muckracking excuse for journalism that in the end just turns all of our stomachs. Prior to Limbaugh, most political discourse took place in more civilized forums where facts were actually given and questioned about the issues campaigns centered around.

Now we just get the extreme opposite ends of the spectrum spewing their vitriol without advancing the discussion of the issues. The saddest thing to me is that despite what any of our political leanings may be, it should be clear to everyone that neither candidate has truly given ANY answers for ANY of our problems. We have no answers on how to get out of Iraq and no answers for how to get the economy growing for Americans again. As a result I am casting my ballot solely on the basis of who I want to appoint new Supreme Court justices, and who will best protect my civil liberties.
 
Irrelavent but related, we went into Kosovo, supposedly to save the poor Albanians. One of the real reasons, was to keep the Albanians from fleeing to northern Europe. Wasn´t the thing in Kosovo, pretty darned close to a civil war? Our European buddies, the French, the Germans and the Austrians, saluted our intervention. It was in there best interests.
Reading Kerry´s testimony, it´s obvious, at least to me. He was protraying the situation in a very skewed way, he was coached by somebody or he actually didn´t have a clue. When he said NVA, Viet Cong and American forces present at the time. There were NVA, Viet Cong, RVN´s, Lao´s, Cambodians, Reginal Defence Forces (RDF´s), Popular defence Forces (PDF´s)various ethnic and religious malitias, private armies (usually battalion in size), Ming´s, Nungs, Gards and others. All shooting at us and each other as alliances changed and shifted.
All I really have to say, about my stay in the area, was that I kept an old woman and her husband with leoprosy going, for the time I was there.
The only guilt I feel, is for the people, that died after we left.
Old soldiers saying, you don´t hear much anymore (SFC McKenny MOH,died Republic of VN), about the morality of warfair. If you don´t have every bullet you´ve ever fired in your pocket, your probably guilty of killing something. Just be thankfull, your still alive.
Unless Mr. Kerry has every bullet he ever fired, in his pocket, he has no right to judge anybody and less right than most to lead, becuase of his hyprocracy.
 
steve01XJ said:
Make you a deal - if we (Democrats) stop the pressure brought upon Sinclair Broadcasting for wanting to air their anti-Kerry documentary, will the minions of the Right allow Farenheit 911 to air as was scehduled on pay per view election eve?

I didn't think so.

Let's face it, this election is going to be down and dirty to the end, and no one side will have hands any cleaner than the other. This is what our politics have been reduced to.

Just remember that the Fox News', the Limbaughs, and the Hannitys of the world have been the catalyst for this downward spiral of muckracking excuse for journalism that in the end just turns all of our stomachs. Prior to Limbaugh, most political discourse took place in more civilized forums where facts were actually given and questioned about the issues campaigns centered around.

Now we just get the extreme opposite ends of the spectrum spewing their vitriol without advancing the discussion of the issues. The saddest thing to me is that despite what any of our political leanings may be, it should be clear to everyone that neither candidate has truly given ANY answers for ANY of our problems. We have no answers on how to get out of Iraq and no answers for how to get the economy growing for Americans again. As a result I am casting my ballot solely on the basis of who I want to appoint new Supreme Court justices, and who will best protect my civil liberties.
Sounds like a fair deal, until you remember that Fahrenheit 9/11 was based on Michael Moore's opinion of Bush and backed up (weakly) by a bunch of circumstantial stuff. It was nothing more than a conglomeration of sound bytes and video clips assembled into something that would support his views. Yes it could look bad with the Saudis, but at the same time America has had a long relationship with them as our lead supplier of oil. The Bin Ladens? So what if the Bush's had ties to the family. Both families are involved in oil. Should people just stop associating with business contacts or friends because a member of their family or country did something bad? Come on. At least the footage of Kerry's testimony to Congress is completely factual and can't really be warped to support our dislike for him. Everything he says can be taken completely as he said it and it would completely support why I don't like him.
 
BlackSport96 said:
Sounds like a fair deal, until you remember that Fahrenheit 9/11 was based on Michael Moore's opinion of Bush and backed up (weakly) by a bunch of circumstantial stuff. It was nothing more than a conglomeration of sound bytes and video clips assembled into something that would support his views. Yes it could look bad with the Saudis, but at the same time America has had a long relationship with them as our lead supplier of oil. The Bin Ladens? So what if the Bush's had ties to the family. Both families are involved in oil. Should people just stop associating with business contacts or friends because a member of their family or country did something bad? Come on. At least the footage of Kerry's testimony to Congress is completely factual and can't really be warped to support our dislike for him. Everything he says can be taken completely as he said it and it would completely support why I don't like him.

I agree 100%
 
BlackSport96 said:
Here is a readable version of what he said. Got it from this site
Relative to the testimony:

Required viewing = "Fog of War"

Interesting to our period of time:

"It is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."
(Hermann Goering)

Ironic?

--ron
 
Glenn said:
The Democratic party sees that they are circling the drain. They will get even more deperate I am sure.
Agreed. They no longer have the USSR, Castro won't live too much longer. They can't all fit in N. Korea and they are too far to the left for the Chinese.

:skull1:
 
DrMoab said:
and me! You know even Mikey said that he made that movie mostly for entertainment. I just love how all the lefties turned it into the honest to God truth



Please note that nowhere in my last post am I in any way endorsing the factual content of F911 or the Bushumnetary. My point was that both sides are full of it, and neither side is telling me why to vote.
 
DrMoab said:
and me! You know even Mikey said that he made that movie mostly for entertainment. I just love how all the lefties turned it into the honest to God truth

It's funny you say that, I see way more righties bad mouthing and bashing F911 (...a movie...built for entertainment purposes...) then I do lefties "turning it into the honest to God truth". Can't comment on any of his movies (built for entertainment purposes) myself, never seen any of it.
 
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