D44 with Ford radius arms

[shizza-my-nizza]

I have been thinking about getting a D44 for the front and was thinking that it would probably be easier to find one from a Ford with radius arms. That way all I have to do is make a crossmember for the arms to mount on and some other details like a trackbar mount and a QD mounts. Am I thinking correctly here or is it as much of a hassle as putting OEM style bracketry on a 44? What year trucks should I look for? Did any radius arm 44's have reverse rotation center sections? Are there any of these 44's that would not have to be narrowed or are only slightly wider than an XJ D30? Any help you guys can offer will be greatly appreciated. TIA, Eric

[roXJeepr]

I'm doing a RC44 project with radius arms right now. I don't know of any that are the same width as XJ AND reverse cut. The early Broncos are the right width, but not RC. I got mine from a 73 F150, just the housing. Then I got an '80 Wagoneer D44 for the shafts and outer stuff. The waggy 44 is real close to XJ D30 width but is std rotation. I think it's safe to say that you're either gonna have to narrow or go std rotation.

[Safari Ary]

How far off is the width of the Ford mounts on the late '70s reverse cut housings?? I'm planning an MJ buildup that would involve leaving the axles full-width, and I'd like to utilize the Ford radius arms if possible. Thanks

Ary

P.S. Shizza, I believe the 78-79 F-250s were the ones that were hi pinion with radius are mounts, but I could be off, that's pulling on info from my memory from 6 months ago.

[rockwerks]

Im in the process right now.....and of course farmermatt has it done on his

I am using a 79 f150 RC 44 and having it narrowed to grand wagoneer size..whould have it back on tuesday...using GW brakes and hubs, lockouts, etc. I am also modifying teh bushing end of the radius arm to accept a johnny joint from RE...cut off existing threads....cut new 3/4 16 threads on bushing area weld johnny joint to 1 1/4" dom and weld in 4130 threaded inserts from spider trax......this will give me unlimited droop without any binding

[TOZOVR]

Guy in Mass Mudders, Avery Runs the setup you speak of...sick sick sick

[Cresso]

Originally posted by xjnation
this will give me unlimited droop without any binding

at the frame end, anyway. You'll need to look into some kind of wristed arm setup to eliminate the bind at the axle end in order to see your full articulation potential.

[rockwerks]

using teh stock arms and urethane bushings...with the RE johnny joint we get around 36" before any front bind.......the twisting action of the johnny joint makes up for the rigid front mount pretty well...at least as far as any shock I can mount on it!....I did also just pick up a set of fox coil overs 31" extended and 19" compressed...with 6.5" of lift they should be a near perfect fit...we will hopefully have around 24 to 28 inches of droop

[Cresso]

hmmm, very interesting. There's no way the johnny joint can make up for anything at the axle end - the axle end binds and the only thing that can relieve it is a fix at the axle end. Yet obviously, you're getting flex. Something must be bending. In the stock setup, the rubber bushings give the axle the slop it needs to articulate. I'm curious what deforms on yours to achieve that much. Urethane bushings should twist less than the stock rubber bushings. Got any pictures with the axle articulated?

[shizza-my-nizza]

Thanks for the ideas. How did FarmerMatt make his front? From pictures I have seen it looks sweet.

[rockwerks]

not yet...jut playing fround with it...and still making the final frame end mounts....the johnny joint has zero bind up and down it rotates on the axis of the ball without shocks and springs the axle would pendulem about 150*in other words eh axle could hang straight douwn under the JJ's.........and and by adding a misalignment spacer on the sides of the JJ we can get around another 10* for a total of aroudn 30* of mis alignment by spreading teh bracket wider....this twisting action will let the axle droop without bind...the axle end could be welded solid and still be able to articulate..not as much but still will....and If I dont use a jam nut on the JJ frame end it will be able to twist @ the threads also...we have done the geometry....and tests...now comes the true test assembly this next week...I will post pics of the progress as we proceed...will be picing up the axle from the narrowing in PHX on Tuesday...I mean hey thats why we are here aint it to play!.....the JJ's and threaded inserts will be here tuesday also..I hope.

[Cresso]

The frame end has no effect on the bind at the axle end. Sure, the whole axle can drop straight down with no bind, but you have massive bind at the axle end when it's articulated (to make sure we're on the same page, I've been using "articulated" to mean when one side is down and the other side is up). There's more going on than just bind at the stock bushing and angle of the articulated axle. The axle is also trying to twist along its length. Because the radius arms are effectively a four-link setup with coinciding frame mounts, you end up with an axle that's trying to travel in an arc whenever the suspension moves. When the two sides are at different positions in the arc, the radius arms fight one another to twist the axle. Hard to explain. There are a couple solutions that I've seen. Wristed radius arms (which bronco guys have been using for years. also see rockkrawler's setup - this is a wristed radius arm configuration) and the new rotating axle housing from bc broncos (www.bcbroncos.com and go to the front suspension section). Longer radius arms don't reduce the bind, but they decrease the difference in the arc of the circle by increasing the radius of the circle for the same amount of flex.

I know I may not be explaining this very well. Suffice it to say that your system may work very well, but unless you alleviate the bind at the axle, you are potentially capable of even more articulation.

[rockwerks]

I have built many modified suspension systems...race buggys, low riders, race trucks etc....and yes the frame end can allow for the axle end....... the wristed arm set up is basicly what I will have........just a real short arm on the frame end...about 6" in length........so the entire arm pivots with the axle...as it droops the JJ twists with the axle to 30*...and if needed the short arm can pivot also....and since both sides move in the same arc..just different lengths.....the axle side could be welded and it will still articulate......just for kicks a few months ago we took the bushing side of my RE arms and sandwiched in washers the size ot the bushings and tightened up teh bolts so teh rubber could not move...and it did not affect droop on teh XJ because of the JJ on the other end....the JJ let the entire arm articulate with the axle...by the way the ford guys have never tried this......granted having it pivot @ the axle would give me a little more droop..but I could not use it anyway.....could not get shocks on teh rig long enough.

[Cresso]

The JJs cannot relieve the axle bind in any way. The only bind they relieve is the amount the radius arm can swing away from ride height. The stock setup has no bind as the radius arm tries to twist, so there's no gain in going to a JJ in that regard. Ford guys have used JJs in the past - this is nothing new. In fact, there are several other methods for alleviating the bind at the frame end other than JJs that have several more desirable traits (less prone to failure, less maintenance required, much lower cost). High misalignment heims and multi-axis hinge setups come to mind.

Unfortunately, the axle bind is still there. This is not the bind you see at the frame end for the change in angle of the axle relative to the frame, this is the bind seen only at the axle end for the change in position from one end of the axle to the other. To help illustrate this difference, I'll see if I can dig up some pictures.

I do have a quick experiment that may help, though. Take a cardboard tube from a roll of paper towels. Hold it in front of you with both arms fully outstretched and with one hand at each end. Now pull one arm down a little, sorta like an axle articulating. Make sure your arms and wrists are locked. I guarantee one of three things will happen: 1) your grip on the tube will be loose enough that one end will spin underneath your hand, 2) your grip will by tight enough and the cardboard itself will deform, or 3) you will let your wrist rotate a little bit to compensate without realizing it. This twisting effect along the length of the cardboard tube (and, more specifically, the cardboard's resistance to twist) is the bind of which I speak.

[rockwerks]

I know exactly what you are saying....and you are right...but even with teh truly wristed arms the difference is ony 20% and the broncos I have seen on before and after shots of wristed arm is about 3" to 4"...I believe with the stock raduis arm setup and my little improvements it will still flex with the with the best of the XJ's...and if not...it will only take a few hours to modify the passenger side radius arm to wristed....

[rockwerks]

you know there is very little difference between the ford radius arms and most of the new three link XJ and ZJ long arm kits......neither lets the axle roll like a four link...
they all have one long lower arm that is solid that runs from frame to axle and mounted to that arm is the short upper (torque} arm....making it a rigid radius arm...the articulation comes strictly from the joints...on the ends not the arms themselves...clayton even calls his a radius arm 3 link for the XJ
.claytons
http://www.off-road.com/jeep/cherokee/2002/01_jan/chp-longarm/finished1.jpg
..
..rusty's
http://www.rustysoffroad.com/media/suspension/xj/longarm_03.jpg



http://www.claytonoffroad.com/cgi-local/corimgprv?has/xjFL_feature_1

[88justin]

anyone thought of using one torque arm on one long arm and on the other using a stiff dampener that would "control" the axle. this would relieve some stress from the single torque arm, but still allow some rotation of the axle housing to eliminate binding.

i was thinking that a dampener with 1-2" of travel and a high force capacity could give a better ride on road when combined with a single torque arm. the trick setup could have a shut-off so that on road it could be locked in a fixed position, but off road, it could change length.

whadayathink?

[Cresso]

Even a stiff dampener would do little under that amount of torque. There have been wristed arm setups with hydraulic cylinders to do what you suggested and they worked to various degrees. Unfortunately, it's quite a lot of hassle. A lot of people make the arm so you can pin it for the street, much like a swaybar disconnect. This works pretty well and is dirt cheap to do.

xjnation, yea those setups are definitely radius arms. No doubt about it. In fact, several of their setups look very similar to the radius arms I'm using. Here's the best picture I have:

http://66.87.49.205/~dtabb/images/steer06.jpg

That's a rear steering axle, but the same setup was on the front. Some may recognize these as the now defunct HiTech Redneck Twister arms. What I'm still trying to figure out is how those longarm kits attain as much flex as they do without wristing one side. Obviously there is deflection in the bushings or something along those lines. The kit Rockkrawler sells is a wristed radius arm setup and I've never seen any other off-the-shelf kit for an XJ flex as much, so that seems to confirm the theory that the long arm kits have more to offer. Unfortunately, RK stuff is really poorly executed which kinda gives the setup a bad name. Too many failures. At any rate, I'd still love to see pictures of yours. I'm still struggling to understand why non-wristed setups flex as well as they do. Thanks!

[shizza-my-nizza]

I am surprised that my questions started this much discussion. Every bit of info helps. Hey FarmerMatt If you are reading any of this could you chime in with any thoughts or ideas for me? Some flex pictures and some pictures of all the axle bracketry and your crossmember would be helpfull too. Thanks, Eric

[rockwerks]

This is why we are here....discussions like this bring forth ideas that further our sport....gotta love it dont cha!

[FarmerMatt]

I'll post a link to the write up I did here on NAXJA. Cresso has it right that the joint at the cross member doesn't relieve the bind at the axle. With the longer radius arms the & ford "C" bushings the bind is a non issue. In fact I went from stock rubber bushings to poly to stiffen the front end some because the front was to loose. This helped balace the front suspension with the rear so they work together rather than the rear having all control over the rig & body position. Here's the link & some pics. After the article was written I redid the mounts at the cross member so they sit flush. The steering is also different. The front shocks are 9012 ranchos that yeild close to 14" of travel. I use all of it.

Matt

http://www.naxja.org/html/techarticles/ebswap.html


http://home.earthlink.net/~pigie/_uimages/LimitStrapFront.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/~pigie/_uimages/Image211.jpg

[88justin]

i have the clayton setup and i think that most of the slack for flexing is in the upper axle bushings. All flexxed up, i can seee about 1/4" between the rubber and the sleeve in each bushing!

im a little confused: what is a wristed arm?

[sarvermr]

wristed radius arms

http://www.greatnorthern.net/~fearme/tech/wristarm.jpg

[Cresso]

Forgive me if I'm going too far at any point. I get a little too excited about this stuff. =)

To properly define wristed radius arms, you should really define radius arms first. It's basically a 4-link system where the frame mounts on each side have a coinciding mount point. It still has essentially 4 axle mounting points which, on a stock Ford radius arm setup, is effectively the top and bottom points of the c-clamp. Basically, one of the two links on each side locates the axle fore and aft and provides the arc in which the axle swings during flex, while the other link restricts twist (axle wrap, whatever you want to call it). For the sake of simplification, let's assume the lower links on each side are locating the axle while the upper links are restricting twist. Technically, you only need one of these anti-wrap links (and in fact, if the engine weren't where it was, you could probably have a very nice setup with one lower link on each side and one upper link right smack in the middle of the axle). Wristed radius arms have one of the four links removed in order to eliminate the bind from one side of the axle to the other as the two upper links both fight to keep the axle turned square to its respective radius arm. Wristed radius arms can take many forms, including the Rockkrawler "torque arm" setup and the Twister arm I posted a picture of a few posts up.

As farmermatt has very convincingly shown, there are other ways to reduce the bind. Long arms do NOT eliminate the bind, but they make it more or less moot. The problem, as he already mentioned is that you run into the same problem as with leaf springs: the longer (and hence, flexier) they are, the sloppier they are. In order to reduce the bind, you're multiplying the small amount of slop that already allows the system to flex. It's not necessarily a bad thing, just something to keep in mind. Wristed arms actually do eliminate the bind completely and do so without requiring any increase in radius arm length. The benefit here is that if you make it pinnable, you can go from totally unrestricted to as stiff or stiffer than stock. Sorta like a disconnect swaybar. There are drawbacks to everything, of course. A wristed radius arm relies on just one link to resist twist, so it better be plenty beefy. Also, there's a weird phenomenon that several in the TJ field have run into where the diff-side front tire will lift off the ground well before it should. This is due to torque loading on the side where the upper link is. If you can predict it, it's very easy to get used to, but it's a little odd.

[Gary E]

What about shortening the late 70s HP ford 44 to waggy shaft length, is there still room to use the ford factory radius arm mounts? My concern is you wil bring the tire in closer to the radius arm and that it will rub on the radius arm when you are trying to turn.

[FarmerMatt]

Gary, this is where the 1/2 ton late 70's ford front end with the cast mounts shines. You don't have to change the distance between the "C" mount & tire at all. The axle tube itself is pressed in & welded on both sides of the mount on the passesnger side. all you have to do is cut the tube inside the mount. Take the cast mount & grind back the weld. Press the little piece of axle tube left in the mount out & press the mount back onto the narrowed housing. Weld up the mount & your good to go. We did this to my brother in laws early bronco. We narrowed it so that it would take an early bronco inner passenger side axle. I forgot what the overall measerments were, but it turned out a little wider than a stock EB. It was somewher in the 61-62" range WMS to WMS.

Matt

[rockwerks]

What about shortening the late 70s HP ford 44 to waggy shaft length, is there still room to use the ford factory radius arm mounts? My concern is you wil bring the tire in closer to the radius arm and that it will rub on the radius arm when you are trying to turn.

Thats jsut what Im doing..and am movig the radius mounts in too

[Gary E]

Cool, that sounds like a pretty slick way Matt. How did the pinion angle vs caster work out? I suppose if its bad all you have to do is grind around the other sides mount or C and rotate it around. But the EB stock shafts are 260 jobbies right? I would probably run stock shafts till the extra coin came in for the warns and CTMS.

My goal/plan is to spend half a day in PNP get a ford hp axle swap knuckles with earlly waggy or chevy ones for the flat tops and throw in the shafts from a waggy for the right length. Then just pay for one PNP axle with all the good stuff, the trick will be finding everything in the same yard :) I suppose using a Waggy inner passenger side shaft would do the same thing as the earlly bronco inner.

[rockwerks]

I suppose using a Waggy inner passenger side shaft would do the same thing as the earlly bronco inner.

different lengths


But the EB stock shafts are 260 jobbies right? I would probably run stock shafts till the extra coin came in for the warns and CTMS.

only dana 30 EB came with small 260's teh dana 44 EB'c used 297

[Safari Ary]

Matt, how far off are the Radius arm mounts on the late 70s half tons at full-width. I'm not interested in narrowing it. I'm planning full-widths under an MJ and I'd like to retain the ford style radius arms. Will it work? or are they too far outside the frame?? Thanks

[FarmerMatt]

Brian the EB 44 axles had the small 260 joints. The EB inner shaft is a different length that the waggy. All you need to do is figure out what length you want & match it up to the closest inner you need. Ary, running the axle full width shouldn't be a problem. I know several that have & the mounts are still inboard of the frame. Gary, they make up to 7 degree offset poly "C" bushings to rotate the pinion to what ever you need. I'm currantly running 2 degree bushings.

Matt

[rockwerks]

I stand corrected:D .....Mr. know it all:rolleyes: ...thanks Matt LOL

[atowley]

BC broncos sells a wristed arm setup for the dana 44. I am in the process also of installing a dana 44 front with ford radius arms. Just finished the custom crossmember.

[atowley]

Farmer matt, could we possibly see a picture of your new crossmember? I would like to see how you got your new mounts flush with the crossmember. Thanks,

[FarmerMatt]

This pic is the best I've got at the moment. They're basically the same as they were before just mounted in front rather than underneath. I had to shorten the arms 2" to move them up also.

Matt

http://home.earthlink.net/~pigie/_uimages/FrameTieIns.jpg

[roXJeepr]

Originally posted by Ary'01XJ
Matt, how far off are the Radius arm mounts on the late 70s half tons at full-width. I'm not interested in narrowing it. I'm planning full-widths under an MJ and I'd like to retain the ford style radius arms. Will it work? or are they too far outside the frame?? Thanks

Ary, the mounts are 41" apart on my 73. I believe the late years are the same. That's on the axle end. I believe the frame mounts are 31". HTH
Dale

[shizza-my-nizza]

Sweet thanks Matt. The pictures are just what I was looking for. Now I just need to figure out my plan of attack so I can have a reverse rotation center and XJ width. Later, Eric

[Beezil]

cresso, perhaps this will help:

http://users.rcn.com/beezil/public/Radius.jpg

nice to see other folks that have an understanding of the forces, it is very difficult to explain....

my solution is easy.

RUN ONE UPPER.

no problemo.

[Cresso]

That's perfect! Whew, coulda used that about a page and half ago. hehe. Unfortunately, we've probably already lost everyone by now. With that sliding upper link that I have on mine, it's really easy to see in person. I'll be at BOTW2, so hopefully I'll convert some believers there. =)

[Beezil]

exactly.....

yeah, its real easy to demonstrate when you run one upper.....

get the side without an upper in a droop or stuff, and then hand a dis-believer (or one lacking in mechanical reasoning) the upper link and a tape measure, and show them were the link is supposed to go and have them imagine the forces at work on the axle tube if the link were allowed to remain in the suspension set-up.....

[FarmerMatt]

Cresso you aint gonna have time to preach to anybody. You're going to have a hard enough time just trying to keep up. See ya in a couple weeks.

Matt

[Beezil]

only dana 30 EB came with small 260's teh dana 44 EB'c used 297

somehow, an end will be put to this fat wad of spobi.

[FarmerMatt]

Dude, will you go to bed & stop fallowing me already?

Matt

[Beezil]

okay.....but you first.

[Cresso]

Originally posted by FarmerMatt
Cresso you aint gonna have time to preach to anybody. You're going to have a hard enough time just trying to keep up. See ya in a couple weeks.

Matt

I dunno bout not having time...from what I hear, there will be plenty of time as all those short-arm guys try to figure out a way to un-high center us long arm guys. =)

[FarmerMatt]

No you first.

BOTW2 is gonna be a blast. No more hung ups for this bozo. I haven't been hung once since I've raised the mounts. If I don't get hung up in JV I won't get hung up anywhere I do believe. Besides the long vs. short thing was last year. This year it's Ca vs. Co. Those Co boys don't knows whats coming.

Matt

[Cresso]

Bah! Us CO men will teach you CA boys what real wheelin is like (said from the safety of my computer chair and 1000 miles of geographic separation).

Lessee here...only two axle swaps, one gear setup and some cage work to go. How many days do I have left? =)

[rockwerks]

This sucks...wont make BOTW2 this year we had a blast last year.....JV was a hoot.....the truck is still in many pieces.....start putting it together tommorrow...after I go get my front axle from being narrowed.....anyone got a cheap place to get control arm mounts for my rear four link?

[Gary E]

found this handy 44 chart

http://thunderbayoffroaders.rockcrawler.com/axles.htm

looks like a waggy short side shaft will give me the most narrowing.

BTW Beezil
it lists the EB 44 as the 260 joint flavor ;)

CA wheelers, make us proud!

[Jes]

Originally posted by Cresso
Bah! Us CO men will teach you CA boys what real wheelin is like (said from the safety of my computer chair and 1000 miles of geographic separation).



:rolleyes:

If you haven't been to the Hammers you don't know Jack! :D :D :D

Jes

[FarmerMatt]

Cresso,
You do realize that the trip starts next weekend right. :)

Matt

[Safari Ary]

Matt, are your arms custom or did you just lengthen stock ones?? I'm interested in hearing how you did them, and how you decided what length to run them. Thanks

Ary

[roXJeepr]

Here's my arms with wristed pass side. They may have just a LITTLE influence from FM's arms ;)

http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/78c40ae6/bc/longarm+build/long+arms+almost+done.jpg?bcZRIu.Amql9M7yM
From the inside of the radius of the "C" to the center of the JJ (which isn't on yet) will be 32.5" with the JJ adjusted all the way in with about 3" of adjustment out.
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/78c40ae6/bc/longarm+build/wristed+arm+apart.jpg?bcZRIu.ALIE66kgi
I still need to drill the hole for the pin on the rear of the stub part of the wristed arm. I'm waiting to install it on the vehicle so I can mark it in it's rested position.

Well, okay, so if the pics don't work for you, here's a link
http://photos.yahoo.com/tnvolsguy
it's under longarm build.

[FarmerMatt]

roXJeepr
The pics don't work?

My arms started out stock. I cut them off about 10" from the base of the C & ground them to fit into the rectangle tube. I had a machine shop build a slug that would fit into the rec. tube & thread the other end to fit the 1" fine thread heim. I tapered the rec. tube up at the bottom to that slug. It really isn't too complicated, just time consumeing. My friend that owns the machine shop is building them for others although they are not the cheapest thing in the world. the heims alone are $75-$80 a piece

Matt

Matt

[Safari Ary]

Cool, thanks, so are the remains of the stock arms a snug fit and then just welded near the C where the tubing ends??

[roXJeepr]

Ary, if you're asking me that question, then no. The ID of the tubing is 1.5"x2.5" . The stock arms are 1.25" wide and about 3" at the base of the C. I was gonna do like Matt did and grind em down till they fit into the tubing, BUT that's a helluva lot of grinding plus it only gives you about 9" of weld which I didn't trust being that it's at the point of most of the torque applied. Instead I cut the top and bottom of the tubing out 6" back (that's how long the remains of the stock arm were) and welded it in. I can get some better pics of that if you'd like. So now I have about 2.5 feet of weld at the point of most of the torque. I tend to practice overkill though out of fear that I'll underestimate forces of the machine.

[Cresso]

Originally posted by FarmerMatt
Cresso,
You do realize that the trip starts next weekend right. :)

Matt

Yep! As of tonight, one axle swap down, one to go. The next one will be the dana 44 front with wristed radius arms. I'll be sure to post relevant pics here.

[FarmerMatt]

I'm not only welded at the C, but also rosette welded down the length of the stock arm.

Matt

[Safari Ary]

Ok, call me lazy, but does anyone in the aftermarket make suitably lengthened arms besides James Duff($$)? I'm thinking I can look around on the Ford forums for used ones etc. Just wondering. Thanks

Ary

[FarmerMatt]

http://lombardimetalworks.com/

Give Phil a call. Tell him where you heard about him.

Matt