DW, no one knows why? What the hell!!

[Jelly Role]

Answer me this! I have read a ton on Dwath Wobble and everyone has an opinion. One dude says it has to be your tires. Then why before I put my lift on everything was fine? Same tires same location, same rims, same weights? That theory is blown. Besides if it was the tires it would occur EVERY time ant the same speeds. Not just every so often, or when you hit a bump, or when in a corner at speed. Bad theory. Why can't anyone say exactly what changes when you get the DW. Why doesn't anyone have an exact fix? There has to be an exact reason if it goes on as commonly as it does. I just don't get it. One day everything is great, and the day after a 2" BB my truck is trying to kill me. Caster is good, toe in/out is good track bar is the same as it was befor the lift(I didn't touch it during install), shocks are brand new, and everything is torqued correctly. What the hell? Now I can't let my wife drive my truck for fear of killing her! I just don't get it. Has anyone talked to Chrysler about this?

Huh. I am furious and stumped. Help if you have SPECIFIC Examples of cures. Not a list of "you could try this, or you could try that" BS!

Thanks,

Jelly

[Yucca-Man]

One day everything is great, and the day after a 2" BB my truck is trying to kill me. Caster is good, toe in/out is good track bar is the same as it was befor the lift(I didn't touch it during install)Get it aligned. You did change the alignment by lifting it. One reason you hear so many varying reasons for DW onset is because there is no single cause, only a plethora of contributing factors. Tires are one, you seem to have elimnated that however. Bushing condition and alignment are two other biggeis though, and you've said yourself that one of those isn't right. Fix those and then come back.

You want SPECIFIC examples? Here's one that's been heard a million tines, "I had MAD DW after doing my n" lift...getting it realigned worked for me."

[RokRdy]

Don't think I could have put it any better YuccaMan. Present your problem to us, but keep an open mind, especially if you don't know much about the subject. Just a suggestion.

[Hunter-Lynchburg,Va]

the point your missing is there is no clean cut exact reason to why death wobble occurs, thats why there is a list of try this and try that. there are too many variables to narrow it down to one specific thing. it would be nice to have some clean cut precise answer but thats not reality.

removing your 2" BB maybe the only thing to cure your problem, and thats a maybe. to be honest, if your that disturbed by not having a simple single solution to the problem, one of two things should happen. 1- get use to it, becase thats the hand life deals you most of the time, especially on the trail or 2- get a different hobby.

Hunter


Answer me this! I have read a ton on Dwath Wobble and everyone has an opinion. One dude says it has to be your tires. Then why before I put my lift on everything was fine? Same tires same location, same rims, same weights? That theory is blown. Besides if it was the tires it would occur EVERY time ant the same speeds. Not just every so often, or when you hit a bump, or when in a corner at speed. Bad theory. Why can't anyone say exactly what changes when you get the DW. Why doesn't anyone have an exact fix? There has to be an exact reason if it goes on as commonly as it does. I just don't get it. One day everything is great, and the day after a 2" BB my truck is trying to kill me. Caster is good, toe in/out is good track bar is the same as it was befor the lift(I didn't touch it during install), shocks are brand new, and everything is torqued correctly. What the hell? Now I can't let my wife drive my truck for fear of killing her! I just don't get it. Has anyone talked to Chrysler about this?

Huh. I am furious and stumped. Help if you have SPECIFIC Examples of cures. Not a list of "you could try this, or you could try that" BS!

Thanks,

Jelly

[GI-John]

Help if you have SPECIFIC Examples of cures. Not a list of "you could try this, or you could try that" BS!


Jelly


What an Inaugural post....and you actually want us to help? Maybe ask in a different tone next time.


SPECIFICS (since you asked so nicely)

86 Comanche

No probs at stock 3" lift caused mad DW at 50-55
Cure= Completely rebuilt front end parts (CA bushings, TRE's, ball joints Shocks)

It would not go away (age of components were a big part of it)

92 Cherokee
No probs at 4.5 Lifted to 6" and Mad DW at 45

Cure= New trac bar(RE heavy duty), alignment


Every Jeep is different the way it reacts to lifting, and unfortunately there isnt a specific cure. I don't remember you stating what year and options you have either.



Hope this helps

[Jes]

'93 XJ
3.5-5.5" lift over time.
Toasted control arm bushings.
Wasted wheel bearings.
Blown shocks.
Bad alignment.
Bad castor.
Out of ballance tires.
Bent components.
Worn out tie rod ends.
Loose parts.
Never had death wobble even once.

[ChuckD]

There is just something plain wrong with you Jes. Taking your junk all over JV, wheeling it hardcore and making it back home in one piece is amazing! ;)

[Dirk Pitt]

Has anyone talked to Chrysler about this?


Jelly

good luck with that!

[Safari Ary]

'93 XJ
3.5-5.5" lift over time.
Toasted control arm bushings.
Wasted wheel bearings.
Blown shocks.
Bad alignment.
Bad castor.
Out of ballance tires.
Bent components.
Worn out tie rod ends.
Loose parts.
Never had death wobble even once.

You're just too perfect aren't you? You can hang in JV on 33s, while everyone else runs 35s minimum. You rarely break anything(or so it seems), drive your junk every day, and wheel the piss out of it on weekends. You are no longer allowed to speak to us mere mortals, we're not worthy :moon: :D :jester:

Just a little jealous that I can't be as cool as Jes.....

[MaXJohnson]

... I have read a ton on Dwath Wobble and everyone has an opinion.

Try a search on "Death Wobble" rather than "Dwath Wobble". My search returned 203 hits.

[gupandme]

Try a search on "Death Wobble" rather than "Dwath Wobble". My search returned 203 hits.

ditto. :paperwork

[shimmy]

j role is a newbie is assume...

[Island XJ]

Dude, is your problem actually death wobble, or just vibration? I have owned several xj's over the years and done all kinds of crap to them, but I have yet to experience DW on a measly 2" of lift. My experience with DW is that the jeep literally shimmies back and forth on the road 2-5" in each direction at a rapid cycling rate and the steering wheel is hard to hang onto and wants to pull right and then left, cycling rapidly as well. Vibration is noise coming from "below" and can make your entire drivetrain and hence your jeep act like its on a vibrating bed. Brutal vibes can seem like death wobble the key to understanding that they are vibes and not DW is that vibes typically occur at a particular speed, whereas DW will occur in varying intensity throughout a larger speed range. (for example vibes may occur at 45-48mph, where DW may start mildly at 40mph and increase to a major shimmy at 50mph and taper off again at close to 60mph).
Oh and I did talk to Chrysler about another unrelated problem that came up during modifications. You know what they said? "If you don't want that problem, don't alter a stock vehicle that was engineered to perform a certain way in the first place!"

[bburge]

Good point about knowing the difference between Death Wobble and vibes.

Many people that I head talking about DW are really referring to bump steer. I've never had death wobble, but I do battle bump steer from mod to mod. Done the pitman arm and that helped at 3.5-4 inches, but now at 5.5 inches it's back and the stabilizer can't hide it anymore. I guess it's getting to be time for a redisigned steering (this guy is gonna LOVE that if the time comes! :shhh: )

bburge

[Jelly Role]

Easy fellas, easy! Yes, I am a newbie, but not a retard. Yes, I did have an alignment(with caster adjustment). No, It shouldn't be the bushings the truck only has 30k on it. Sorry for the spelling, it was 3AM after a long night at the plant. I have done many many searches for both DW and Death Wobble and found countless treads. Yes, I do know the difference between a vibe, and yanking the wheel right out of my hands. I also understand that it is odd to have such a severe case with a "measly" 2" lift. That is why I am not really in the best of spirits about the whole deal. I apologize for the tone, I meant nothing towords you all, but I just wanted to get to the point and stop having to chase my tail. No need for the sarcasm, and the imlications that I am stupid, or have no mechanical abilities, or that because I have a 2" lift I am somekind of poser or something. I am in this hobby just like you guys, I just have a family, and things to pay for as well.

All I wanted was some direct answers if anyone had some.

Jelly

[Jelly Role]

PS

2001 Classic
2" RRO BB
New Shocks w/ BPE's
30k miles
Aligned w/ added +caster LCA shims
wheels/tires same as before the lift, and in same position on truck
starts at 48 and can really get going til just under 60

[OT]

If you want straighter answers and less sarcasm then I suggest changing your user name and asking again in a less aggressive manner. Don't be so damn defensive.

Knowing most of the users on here, I can almost guarantee that If you come at us with a first post and follow-up post like you just have, you're not going to get a happy reception.

We're volunteers, in a way, not customer service or the complaint department.

Thank you. Come again.

[Jelly Role]

Here is my thought on the matter. What if....since the axle is moved out of center(even a little with my 2" kit), maybe the axle is trying to fight the track bar vs the LCA's vs. the coils to get back to the center position. So when you go over a bump at speed, the tires lift just enough to let the axle start that ocilaion movement up, over, down, back...etc...? So maybe it isn't the loosnes of the bar, but the length? Then any loosnes only adds to it?

I also noticed last night on my way home that if I hammer the throttle right when the DW starts, and lift the front end just a touch, it will quit. On the other hand if I hit the brakes and bring the nose down, it seems to stay the same or get worse until I get down to a lower speed.

I am just trying to think using math instead of eliminating loose parts and stuff. If everything was in one place before the lift and all was fine....maybe everything is not in its same relationship now so it is cusing the problem. Then the new problem with the suspension geometry is now magnafied by any loose parts.

[PhunkXJ]

Easy fellas, easy! Yes, I am a newbie, but not a retard. Yes, I did have an alignment(with caster adjustment). No, It shouldn't be the bushings the truck only has 30k on it. Sorry for the spelling, it was 3AM after a long night at the plant. I have done many many searches for both DW and Death Wobble and found countless treads. Yes, I do know the difference between a vibe, and yanking the wheel right out of my hands. I also understand that it is odd to have such a severe case with a "measly" 2" lift. That is why I am not really in the best of spirits about the whole deal. I apologize for the tone, I meant nothing towords you all, but I just wanted to get to the point and stop having to chase my tail. No need for the sarcasm, and the imlications that I am stupid, or have no mechanical abilities, or that because I have a 2" lift I am somekind of poser or something. I am in this hobby just like you guys, I just have a family, and things to pay for as well.

All I wanted was some direct answers if anyone had some.

Jelly

I had SEVERE DW on my stock ZJ, the trac bar, steering stabilizer, TRE's, were all shot and my tires were too. Fixed all that and it rides great now.

My XJ had DW right after I lifted it but I don't know exactly what the problem was, I just fixed everything and eventually it went away.

[Jelly Role]

Once again, I appologize! I am a to the point person. I don't sugar coat crap. I am sorry If I didn't ask in the right tone, or if I offended any of you with my first or second posts. All I wanted was specific examples of cures. I have been around and around with this problem with so many people, it is just getting to my last nerve. I have called manufacturers, I have done countless searches, and I have been on all kinds of Jeep boards, I have talked to my automotive engineers at my Plant, I have spoken with the alignment shop, and my Jeep dealer. I am flat out of ideas.

My concern is not because of a so so ride, poor handling or 'cuase I am not "hardcore" enough to deal with this. My real concern stems from the fact that I don't want this thing to kill my wife or anyone else in my family!

Once again, my sincere appologies.

Jelly

[Jelly Role]

Thanks Phunk!

[sarvermr]

please post your allignment specs. specifically your toe.

[Jelly Role]

please post your allignment specs. specifically your toe.
total toe .24+
caster 7.8+

I have heard 0 toe is best? Or maybe a touch out?

Thanks

Jelly

[bburge]

OK, the post about the trackbar and LCA's show a some thought. It also ties into what others have been saying "not usually a problem in 2" of lift - look for an aggravating condition" (not DW, a different aggravation! :confused1 )

As for braking vs accelerating - think more about the force being applied to the tires when you hit the brakes (I would guess. I that's frustrating, but if any of us had a SUREFIRE cure for DW - we'd be charging you, and others, a LOT for it!) You you brake, you are keeping the tires from rotating as fast as they want to go (want=momentum) and the added effect of the nose dropping only puts more force on the tires. Accelerating doesn't inhibit the motion of the tires/wheels and might reduce force and allow it to "ride out".

Sorry dude, just thoughts. You have to apply them where you feel/see fit. Even at 30K miles, it could be a bad steering damper or shot ball joint.

bburge

[Jelly Role]

Thanks Burge.

[Stick]

You want a clear cut, straight forward, exact answer to the death wobble problem?

Take off your lift, and sell it to me ...at a reduced rate of course, so I can sell it off.

I need more positive cash flow to up my Jeep refurb fundage :soapbox:

I think the NAXJA sticker has cured many a DW problem.... :smoker:

[XJZ]

..... only a plethora of contributing factors. "

If you use the word plethora, you have to use other 4x4 mag words, like "venerable". :)

Such as "the venerable Jeep 4.0 should stop Death Wobble in it's tracks".

[Jelly Role]

How much? ...and I never said anyone was stupid.

[NotMatt]

Specific example here, infact 2 of them on the same rig:

87 Jeep Cherokee.. bought for 1100, had sever death wobble over 50mph. Front tires were suspect, very worn and severely cupped. Moved the rears to the front and front to the rears and the problem did not go away, but was not as violent as before. Took the tires that were now on the front in and had them spin-balanced at the tire store, put them back on, and the DW was practically gone. Still a little shimmy in the wheel, but not as violent. I eventually ended up replacing the LCA and UCA bushings, the track bar and one wheel bearing to get it to ride completely smooth on the highway.

Same 87 Jeep Cherokee, now on 32's. Immediately upon putting 32's on, DW was back and as violent as ever... had the tires rebalanced again, made it a little better. Replaced the driver's side wheel bearing, getting better but still shaking at 55mph, and finally just yesterday I replaced the TRE at the pitman arm on the top end of the drag link... the old one was badly worn. Now, I can drive it at highway speeds with a tiny bit of shimmy in the steering wheel (mind you the 32's are swampers, so a little bit of wierd handling is expected).

My point is, usually Death Wobble is not something that is caused by one thing. It's usually due to worn components or mis-alignment, but does not always rear it's ugly head in those situations. It needs something to set it off, unbalanced tires, uneven roadway, a change in suspension geometry due to lift, etc. There are so many variables that play into the coil spring front suspension that our XJ's have that it's impossible for us to tell you exactly what the problem is. Rest-assured, we've all (most of us) been there before with this type of frustrating problem, but it is solveable, you just need to do some inspection and troubleshooting. Start with the simplest or most cost-effective things first.

[Jelly Role]

what has changed? the day before the lift all was well. the day after all hell breaks loose.

toe in /out changed....alligned it
LCA's changed dimention, but had them shimmed to get caster back in spec
shock length changed(new shocks)...put on BPE's back to stock
tires/wheels/weights same in same position on truck
bushings all the same as before
steering stabilizer same as before w/ no probs
track bar......hmmm it seems to be the only thing that has changed its geometry. granted the bushings may be worn, but taht didn't cause any wobble before the lift. Sooo, could that mean that the length is the problem? I just keep thinking it has to be in the geometry of the suspension/steering setup. Otherwise it should have done it before the lift too? I just can't srop thinking about it.

[Jelly Role]

Thanks, NotMatt.

[Lawn Cher']

I read recently on here that there is a FSB on '01 LCA bushings being too soft... I know that my wife's '01 Limited acted like it had DW (not saying it did) just with warped rotors... the soft bushings exaggerated the oscillations. My '97 had DW after bumping the lift from 4" to 5.5" from worn LCA bushings. Maybe the combination of having '01 soft bushings and a slight lift is your problem? Try stiffer lower control arm bushings, either stock rubber replacements with the corrected durometer or aftermarket polyurethane. I hope this helps, since I'm sure I'll run into this when I boost the Upcountry suspension on our '01. I do feel a little more oscillation than I should when hitting bumps at speed, so I think it is all related.

[Lawn Cher']

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=26472&highlight=bushing

[xjspyder]

Im at work right now reading this, so I connected to our chrysler internet site to check for tsb's.Wer do have onefor 01 xj's for the "death wobble",it calls for replacing all 4 front control arms. If your xj is still under warranty go to your dealer and tell them you hav a "shimmy" when you hit a bump in the road ,they SHOULD cover it

[DaffyXJ]

Jelly,
You said you researched all you could find about DW. If that's so you should know DW is ALL About the geometry. DW is caused by the resonant frequency of vibration in the front end components. When designed, the angles of caster, camber, tie rods etc are figured in to minimize Fo [read F sub O] (Resonent Frequency). That's why there is a steering stabilizer on your Jeep. To absorb vibrations before sending components (even ball joints) into resonent frequency.
When we lift our vehicles, the one constant, independent of lift size, is we change the geometry of the steering components in relation to the other components. That's why company's make and sell, drop pitman arms, Drop track bar brackets, adjustable track bars, adjustable length control arms, and over the knuckle steering set ups. It's ALL about the geometry.
The solution is to trouble shoot the problem until you find the offending component or components that are going into resonance and causing the steering to oscillate.
I've been trouble shooting my 2000 TJ for two months. I'm changing the tie rod ends and steering stabilzer this sunday. It's an iterative process, one tree at a time, as they say. ( in that you can't cut down the whole forest at once, It's one tree at a time)
So start looking at what you have not changed as opposed to what you have changed. Perhaps a longer track bar, or drop the pitman arm, or even make sure the disk brake rotors aren't warped are places to start.
But saying you have read everything available on the subject and then asking for a one stop solution is inconsistant.

[Yucca-Man]

If you use the word plethora, you have to use other 4x4 mag words, like "venerable". :)

Such as "the venerable Jeep 4.0 should stop Death Wobble in it's tracks".PPpppbbbfffffffffffftttttt!!!!

It's exhilirating what I can post at 0-dark-thirty in a caffeine-deficient state.

This is an excerpt of something posted by Tom Houston (old_man) awhile back about DW; he knows what he's talking about and confirms that there's no single thing that causes (or fixes) DW:Tom Houston -

DW's are caused by a rather simple problem, but one that can be hard
to track down. Your suspension system (which includes the body) is
out of equilibrium. Energy is being temporarily stored somewhere and
then released, and the cycle repeated. Energy storage can be in many
different areas. It can be in the sidewalls of the tires flexing, or
the rubber in the bushings of the springs and control arms, or in the
springs, or even in the flex of the body. The energy being stored is
caused by something being loose in the system, such as ball joints,
tie rods, control arm bushings, leaf spring bushings, motor mounts,
etc. or something out of alignment.

What makes things tricky is that you can have all of these problems
and have no DW. It has to do with the rate at which the energy is
stored and released. If the storage and release rates are close to
the same, you are in for trouble. That is why changing tires many
times will kill DW. The new tires are stiffer or softer than the old
ones and as such store and release the energy at a different rate.
The purpose of a steering damper is to change the rate of storage and
release of the energy, just as are your shocks.

I say all of this to point out that you can have all of the equipment
working correctly and still have DW, but in most cases I have seen,
there is a defective component that you haven't found yet. My first
rule of thumb is to check all the rubber parts first. They fail the
quickest and store/release the most energy. Second is to look for
loose connections/connectors such as tie rod ends. Third is to get
out a tape measure and check that you have approx .125" of toe in
(difference in the distances between the front edge of the front of
the tires and the rear edge of the tires. After that I check the
castor. Lack of castor leads to a unstable system.

If all else fails, you need to retune the system. Start with a new
stabilizer if it is old or go to poly CA bushings.

[mattb]

If all else fails, you need to retune the system. Start with a new stabilizer if it is old or go to poly CA bushings.

I've always considered replacing the steering stabilizer just a "cover up" for the actual problem. But after my 3in lift I had death wobble when ever I hit a bump going more then 45mph. Rather then spend money on parts I couldn' afford, I just replaced the steering stabilizer and my problem's been gone for 3years.

Matt

[Yucca-Man]

I consider the steering stabilizer to be a 'cover-up' as well in many cases, and as you can see from Tom's statement I believe he does as well, hence the "if all else fails" portion. However, I feel that in some cases it does need to be replaced, but only after other avenues have been checked out.

[PC-UT-XJ]

I currently am suffering from the Death Wobble. It happens only between 50-55 mph. I know you said "don't tell me 'try this, try that'" but I seriously recommend having someone examine the movement of the trackbar while the car is parked, turned on, and you turn the steering wheel back and forth. After that, how old is the steering stabilizer? And maybe you could get your head out of your ass, relax a little bit, spend $20, give up that macho Mr. Fix-it attitude and take your POS to a dealer. It's worth it.

[Jelly Role]

Well, wise ass, I did speak to my Jeep dealer, and they had no answers. The service manager was just as vague. And I did check the movement with the truck running and a buddy turning the wheel(it is tight). And as far as the stabilizer goes it is the same age as it was before the lift with no DW.

[Jelly Role]

[QUOTE=DaffyXJ]Jelly,
You said you researched all you could find about DW. If that's so you should know DW is ALL About the geometry. DW is caused by the resonant frequency of vibration in the front end components. When designed, the angles of caster, camber, tie rods etc are figured in to minimize Fo [read F sub O] (Resonent Frequency).
That's why there is a steering stabilizer on your Jeep. To absorb vibrations before sending components (even ball joints) into resonent frequency.
When we lift our vehicles, the one constant, independent of lift size, is we change the geometry of the steering components in relation to the other components.
So start looking at what you have not changed as opposed to what you have changed. Perhaps a longer track bar, or drop the pitman arm, or even make sure the disk brake rotors aren't warped are places to start.

Daffy, you are on my page Man. I still have a feeling that it is geometry!! 100%. Thanks for your input.

Jelly

[Jelly Role]

Gentlemen....here it is. I think Daffy is very much on track. Like I posted earlier, I said I started looking at the differences between pre and post lift. What changes, and what stays the same? I really am narrowing it down to the track bar being TOO LONG. I agree with a lot of you that the "slop" in the stock components help in building the DW and letting in worsen. However, I believe the root cause is the axle not being centered under the truck due to the shorter track bar. Thus, all of the other suspension/steering components that "want to be centered" are fighting the track bar which is pulling the axle off center. This is the kink in the intended geometry. All the rest just let it get worse. Once you hit a bump at speed the tires "lift" just enough to lighten the suspension and let it try to "come back to center" then the track bar pulls it back off center...etc. etc....and around it goes. I am planning to drop the coin for an adjustable bar from Kevin's, and try to get it back on center so it stops the dog-tracking/fighting itself. We will see.

PS Thank you very much to the few of you who offered sound ideas and good interaction of ideas.

[Clean Racing]

Jelly...

Im no Professional Jeep mech, but every time I have encountered the "DW" it has always been my track bar, either the bolt loose, or the bushing worn out. You are on the right track with the geometry. I also agree with some of what you are saying about people "advising" you to change this part and that part. I prefer to properly diagnos the problem than throw parts at it. Yes Death Wobble can be caused by just about everything on your front end from bushings to loose control arm bolts. I also understand the frustration of experiencing these problems after only installing a 2" lift.

I am only suggesting to go back to the basics....recheck all your bolts on the front end and make sure everything is tight. Especially the track bar, since the stock one is only a tie rod end with a bolt on the other. It entirely possible for the trac bar to be bad at 30k, I have seen this on some grand cherokees.

Good luck.......

Scott.

[Jelly Role]

Thanks for the input Scott! I wasn't trying to be sh*tty, I am like you , I just want to diagnose it then shoot it down.

[Island XJ]

[QUOTE=Jelly Role] I am planning to drop the coin for an adjustable bar from Kevin's, and try to get it back on center so it stops the dog-tracking/fighting itself. QUOTE]

Lots of 3" kits and budget boosts recommend redrilling the track bar mount on the axle end 3/4" on center over toward the driver's side. On my first lift ever this was what the directions told me to do. Of course I recommend getting yourself an adjustable track bar, but for now if you want to address it immediately, drill yourself a new hole 3/4" over to the driver's side. It won't put you in a dangerous position. I drove on that setup for a couple of years before building a new track bar to replace it. I also wheeled pretty heavy and the ends wore out with no damage to the axle-end mount. Should work just fine for a 2" bb.

[Jelly Role]

Island,

Thank you very much. Is there enough strength in the stock bracket to alow for two holes? If i get the new one later(adjustable) does the stock bracket offer enough support to go back to the original hole? Thanks again!!

[Jelly Role]

Island-

What if I loosened the bar, and remove the axle end. Then with a buddy helping, shake the truck side to side to let it center itself. Where ever the bar wants to be naturally, drill my new mount hole? Sound logical?

[Island XJ]

Island,

Thank you very much. Is there enough strength in the stock bracket to alow for two holes? If i get the new one later(adjustable) does the stock bracket offer enough support to go back to the original hole? Thanks again!!

yes there is definitely strength in the stock bracket to allow two holes. Its not ideal by any means, but I would be very surprised if anything adverse happened. When i made a new track bar, I put it back in the original hole and left the new hole i drilled as is. I did not get around to filling it up with weldbead for over a year. It never bent, twisted or became an oval hole, and like i said, i wheeled it pretty hard. Without offering any guarantees, I say try it out, it may solve your problems immediately, and if there is a problem, it would be nothing for your local welding shop to weld a new plate over the holes, and redrill out the original hole. At least this way you might get some immediate results.
Good luck.

[Island XJ]

Island-

What if I loosened the bar, and remove the axle end. Then with a buddy helping, shake the truck side to side to let it center itself. Where ever the bar wants to be naturally, drill my new mount hole? Sound logical?


you can do this, but the natural hole will probably line up closer to the old hole than the 3/4" i am recommending. I would not want to see them too close, or there will not be enough metal between the holes to have good strength. You might want to get in there and just check it out, if you feel good about it, give it a try.

[Jelly Role]

cool thanks, man!

[Island XJ]

cool thanks, man!

you bet, let us know if it solves your DW problem, or if I inadvertently made things worse! :)

[NotMatt]

I was thinking about this thread earlier and started thinking about other possibilities, which leads me to this...

When you did your lift, did you end up removing the control arms to get the coil spacers in? If so, what procedure did you follow to tighten the LCA bolts, and how tight did you tighten them?

When I do anything involving removing the LCA's, I check and double-check to make sure I get them tight. What I do is this: with the jeep all jacked up, put the CA in and get both bolts in, and put the nuts on the bolts just to where I can't turn them anymore with my fingers and leave them that way and re-assemble everything and lower the jeep onto the ground. Once it's there, I use the impact gun and a deep 21mm socket to get those things nice and tight. I've had them come loose on me when I just used a ratchet to tighten them.

I've had loose LCA bolts cause some wierd handling and shimmying on the highway, luckily I caught it before it was a huge problem. Luckily the nuts on the LCA and UCA bolts are self-locking, so they won't ever get loose enough to fall off and let the control arm fall out, but it could cause some shimmying if they're loose.

[Jelly Role]

Hey Not-

Nope they satyed on. Also, my alignment guy hammered on them after he shimmed them out to add caster back in.

Thanks though.

Jelly

[Jelly Role]

Huh, guess we all should have paid more attention in Geometry class.

[NotMatt]

Jelly... do you think you could post a picture of the front underside of your jeep, straight on, so I can see the track bar and the drag link? I'm just curious and I want to compare it to mine, because I have a 2" lift as well, using the stock track bar in the stock location with stock steering. The only thing I did on mine was shim the LCA's a little bit too, and I'm riding smooth.

[Eagle]

The only case of true death wobble I have experienced was in a completely stock 1999 Grand Wagoneer that had approximately 10,000 mostly highway miles on the odometer and had never been off road. And it only happened once, when I touched the brakes to maintain the speed limit down a long grade on a secondary road in New Hampshire.

Alignment was good, wheel balance had always seemed good, no worn components. The brake rotors were warped, and the light touch on the brakes was enough to set it off. However, the rotors had been warped for a couple of thousand miles and had never set off DW before, not did it ever occur again (at least while I owned the vehicle).

There's a very simple reason why nobody has posted THE ONE TRUE CURE for death wobble: There's no one cause. I'm the guy who tends to look first and foremost at tire balance, but sometimes it's tire balance plus something else.

[fire325]

I've had this same problem for about 6 months. My Rust's adj. trac bar TRE went bad. I replaced that. Still have it at around 50-55 mph. Alignment guy said TRE's are in good shape. Steering damper seems to be ok. Here is the real bummer... My pass. side front tire is wearing evenly much faster than the driver side. Also, the wobble/vibration is more noticable while accelerating up an incline between 50-55 mph. And again noticable while turning right only at those speeds while driving thru a long right hand curve. No vibes at all at 60+ mph.
I'm setting at 4.5" on a '92 XJ. I first purchased some LCA's for a 3" lift. After installing to a 4.5" lift, i had no problems. But that doesn't mean anything. I did find out that my sway bar is bent. Don't know if that would be a problem or not. But anything is possible. I just want to find out why only the pass. side wobbles or vibrates. I have new bearings and seals on both sides. Alignment guy said he thinks maybe an axle joint is froze up some, causing it to wobble while turning a slight right turn at those speeds. It sounds good, but why would it be doing it while level or an incline at those speeds? All of this DW thing is very difficult to figure out. So, i'm just going to start replacing everything as i get the $. After i fix that i'll buy new tires. Death wobble questions are worth a million dollars if someone could pinpoint a problem. Maybe someday myself or someone could find this out and retire early.
Cheers

[Jes]

You're welcome.

[OT]

Well, that's what we're here for. Glad everything worked out for the best......... For the rest of us.

[lazyxj]

Thanks everyone for the informative exchanges. I learned a couple of possible reason why my 2001 XJ had occasional DW, even when stock and is now much worse at 2 1/12" of lift. I will be replacing the CA bushing ASAP or better still with adjustable LCs.
I know the rig will be begging to be raised more at some point, so it will be money well spent.

Beats me how people can get so fired up over nothing but words.
Jelly doesn't deserve to own a Jeep with that kind of attitude, he's more of a Ford man.
Maybe he should visit Pirate4X4 for a real dose of down home friendliness and advice. I’m sure they would straightened him up right away

[Jelly Role]

Der. Thancs fur yur inpput. I ain't got no brains. Yor rite, I doo deserv a Ford. I ain't smart enuf too hav a Jeep. But I am smart enought oto get rid of one that is ridden with problems.

[maineiac]

it could be a number of things but a tech told me that dc actually put out a memo about this and about 90% of the time it is the upper control arm bushings that are pressed into the axle houseing , and the warn bushing is exadurated by the new angle you get with a lift

[fire325]

:rattle: I think you just :hang: yourself!

[skyjackerXJ]

'93 XJ
3.5-5.5" lift over time.
Toasted control arm bushings.
Wasted wheel bearings.
Blown shocks.
Bad alignment.
Bad castor.
Out of ballance tires.
Bent components.
Worn out tie rod ends.
Loose parts.
Never had death wobble even once.

I've put some wacky lift combinations before too, but never had any wobble problems, ever! And I drove this Jeep on the AAA-rated "worst stretch of highway in the U.S." 50 miles everyday for two years.

The worst thing to do when lifting a jeep is try to save money on a smaller lift kit, then add spacers to get a desired height. Save up and do it right the first time.

[skyjackerXJ]

I just realized how out of date my last post was...but seriously, **** YOU Jelly Role. You come back half-a-year later to criticize the people you asked for help? I hope your new late 90's Ford Exploder has recalled Wilderness A/T tires on it, and you roll into ball of flames.

[skyjackerXJ]

I just screwed myself on reputation points. I apologize for my last post.

[littlexj1]

as bad as it sounds...this is one of the better threads on DW...my situation is, i had DW at 4.5 so while buying stuff to fix it i went up 2 more inches...word of advice...fix DW first before you go up...another thought is when installing a track bar to get an accurate (at home) alignment take some string and go from the rear tires to the front while someone steers ( TB disconnected)....the front end will pull left to right...when you get it close adjust the TB and bolt it...then fine tune it.
right now after replacing most everything in the front i am going with RE drop brackets....to better the angle of the control arms to reduce the shock of the CA's into the unibody and letting the coils/shock take it....if this dont fix it i am going leafs....haha

[XJRubicon]

Had deathwobble on my 91 XJ once.... it was stock with 31" tires...

A new steering stabalizer stopped the death wobble.

[Dirk Pitt]

Jelly Role,

Just out of curiosity...did you ever really crawl under the Jeep and look for the problems and apply the solutions NAXJA suggested? Did you ever check the bushings, TRE's, ball joints, etc. You were told numerous things to check and all we heard back from you was "it can't be that, it was fine before the lift". Guess what, small changes to one component in a system like a suspension will multiply throughout the system so if something worked well in it's stock setup it won't necessarily work well when the system has changed (even a small amount). It sounds like you had a good theory about the trac bar, but did you ever actually do anything about it?

Talking about a problem on the internet and trying to visualize the fix is only the starting point you actually have to apply the fixes to the problem.

[Traverse]

I tried everything from alighnment, to lca bushings, to wheel and tire balancing. i finally replaced the steering stabalizer with a rancho and it went away. people have told me its a band aid, but it fixed my problems.