Pre-runner type suspension stuff

[Goatman]

I'm interested in a discussion about go fast driving and suspensions. I wonder what you guys who have been involved in desert or rally style racing can add from your experinces. I think I have a basic grasp of the subject, but I'm interested in what specifics could be shared about it.

I'm currently reworking my suspension towards pre-running. Not that I have any pre-running to do, but we've gotten in the habit of racing each other (sort of) to and from the trails when in the desert, and I'd like to go watch some Jeepspeed races and it could be fun to follow along to watch.

I'm working on overall travel, shock type and dampening, and bumpstops. I'm also interested in spring rates (which we've been talking about), though I think my current springs aren't too bad. I also wonder how reliable leaf springs, control arms, mounts, bumpstops, and stuff are with the pounding they would take in pre-runner style driving. I love rock crawling, and I like pretty trails and camping, but I'm getting more interested in hauling ass at times. :D

So, what does it take to make an XJ able to run close to a Jeepspeed rig and hold together?

[olympic4x4tech]

reinforce the entire unibody, full interior cage that ties into all suspension points on the unibody. if you dont want to do too much cutting you can relocate the front lower shock mount to the control arm mounts, however i suggest making your lower control arm mounts out of 1/4" steel and run a double shear on the longer bolt you woudl use. YOu can also run a hydraulic bump stop inside your coils. a good long arm setup or some beefed up drop brackets are a good idea. In the rear you cannot use the stock upper shock mounts since the cross member will just rip ou, so run the shock up into the cab. as far as shocks i recommend the bilstein 7100's 12" short body valved 255/100 for the front if your running about a 5" lift and you dropped the shock mounts to the lower control arm mount. Inthe rear you can run a 16" travel shock with shock hoops but you will need some very flexy springs, some leaf packs from deaver spring or nationals are good. anythign with alot of thin leafs. the one other thign you need is $$,$$$ going fast you break about 3 times as many parts, bend axle tubes ect. I can discuss this forever almost.

[marcusguy]

Hey Richard-

i really like the fact that you have become more interested in desert speed type offroading. I love this forum and this group and have considered joining many times except that 99% of the people here are into slow rockcrawling type offroading, and I love flying through the desert. I would love to see some people from here show up at a jeepspeed race and prerun a little. We usually prerun one lap the day before the race and then just camp out, cook, talk, and watch the cars fly by the next day.

I have broken something on all but one prerun, so I have learned a little. Reinforcing is the main thing here. I know you have done a lot, but for the sake of others, make sure you do something with the LCA axle mounts and the UCA pass. side axle mount (although axles with the auto disconnect have a strong pass. mount). Strengthening your steering box is a good idea, people usually plate it. Running a brace to your trackbar mount is a good idea. Motor mounts will break eventually. The problem though is not just the A-shaped mount with the bushing but the bracket on the motor as well. To hard of a hit will crack the block when the motor mount bracket breaks off. You have to use some of the extra holes on the side of the block for extra strength. Stock control arms don't last long. Bushings however haven't been a problem with me. I run skyjacker mid length arms in the front (21") with a heim at the axle and a bushing at the body and it has been fine for about 1.5 years now. I also run bushings on the rear shock lower mount and they have been fine too. If you race they won't last long, but with prerunning-type driving occasionally they should be fine.

Depending on how far you run, resevoir shocks may be required (I know that you have been looking at some Richard). Within a few miles of desert speed, normal shock will get hot enough to blow. When we prerun or just go camping in the desert and speed for a while, my light cherokee (only extra weight is suspension parts and a roof rack) will heat my 7100's up enough in a few miles that I can't touch them. We usually run one lap which takes 1.5 hours and is typically 40-60 miles. I'm working on new plans with either more shocks or bigger shocks.

There are different theory's just like in rockcrawling, but in general, the spring rates are stiffer than yours. Though some racers run skyjacker and rubicon springs, many will run Currie and Deaver coils.

http://www.offroadjeepparts.com/purchase/inventory.asp?uid=26014992&group=22&cat=222

The front racing springs are a progressive 250/300 lbs rate, which is stiffer than most springs. You will notice that while the rear "sport" leaf is 165lbs/", the rear "race" leaf (or is it leaves?) is only 150 lbs. I agree with many racers who say that a stiffer front and softer rear spring is the best set up. The idea is that it keeps the front of the jeep up and the back down when coming off a jump. If it is a drop off, it doesn't matter, but a jump that rises first will compress the suspension before the jeep launches. The suspension will start to rebound as you launch off the lip and if the rear rebounds faster than the front it can kick up causing a nose dive. This is also true in the whoops. Cherokees will have to deal with this more than a truck because of the short wheelbase. Racing shock valving for the bilstein 9100 people use is 360/115 for the front and something close in the rear, some thing like 315-360/100-115. I run 255/100 front and 255/70 rear. I mainly want more jounce dampening for both ends.

The last thing I would say is cycle everything and make sure you have clearance. You WILL use all of your travel. Shocks as bumpstops won't last, and I've seen people tear out important parts off their jeep using the shock as a bumpstop. Remember that if you hit both bumpstops at the same time and your shock is almost bottomed, then if only one side gets stuffed the shock will compress more. This is if your shocks are still in the stock position which is more towards the outside of the axle than the bumpstop. I was confused at first how I was bottoming my shocks and never thought that the shock be BARELY outside of the bumpstop would matter, but it does. Oh ya, stock front bumpstops will compress all the way to the metal, and rears will compress about 2-2.5" when hit hard. If your shock and bumpstops have 7" of bump-travel and your tire is 6" from your fender, watch out.

Well, i've typed more than I should have. Hope this helps a little. I still have a very hard time keeping up with the Jeepspeed guys. While you're probably a better driver than I am in all situations, I think just the side and weight of your jeep will make it hard for you also... but it sure is fun to try.

marcus

[ACE]

I'm glad someone posted about this because I like going fast in the desert and dirt roads also. What do you do about your front sway bar endlinks? The two times I have lead footed it through the desert or sand dunes I bent the crap out of the end stock type end links as well as some disconnect styles. This usuallyoccurs when one front wheel hits a high or low spot and the other doesn't at a high rate of speed.

[marcusguy]

I have the JKS links and they have been fine so far. I wish I had enough shock under the front to get ride of the anti-sway bar, but it is to tippy for me right now. Only problem I've had is the axle end mount for the link gets loose because of the stress. Last time I went to the desert, the bolt loosened and lower mount just fell off. The stock links will never last because of the stupid upper mount.

Marcus

[Goatman]

Marcus, very good info...EXACTLY the info I was looking for. What have you broken on pre-runs? I don't like to break, so pretty much everything on my rig is beefed up. I wouldn't come close to qualify this rig for Jeepspeed because my whole front suspension is redesigned and all the mounts are both moved and beefed up. The only part of my suspension that is still stock is the rear spring shackle mount at the frame, the shackle box, and it gets rebuilt tomorrow since I have ripped the captive nut out of the frame on both sides. The front leaf spring mount is one from a circle track car, mounted horizontal rather than vertical like they do (so they can adjust anti-squat).

Do you run stock bumpstops? I'm real interested in bumpstops. I'm surprised to hear you say that the front bumpstop will collapse clear to the metal. I have a Daystar poly bumpstop on top with hocky pucs bolted through on the bottom, and they touch with about 1.5" of shock travel left. The poly bumpstop seemed really stiff, so I cross drilled two sets of holes so it had more give. I have no idea how they will hold up in hard use.....we'll see. My suspension has been cycled and checked extensively, and I have the needed clearance when articulated, but it's good to know how much the bumpstop is likely to compress. I'm considering adding poly bumpstops to the shaft of my shocks as an added precaution.....maybe that's a good idea. What do the Jeepspeed guys run for bumpstops (the ones who don't have air bumps)? In the rear I also have Daystar XJ extended poly bumpstops, and I really like them at first. I almost couldn't feel the rear bottoming out, but they didn't hold up. They have a gap in the bottom, and the bottom piece of poly has already broken. I'm curious how much they will compress, after I remove the broken piece and eliminate the gap.

My shocks are remote resevoir SAW's, but the valving is too soft so far. I think they built them more for crawling than going fast, and the presure in the shocks is very low (150 psi front/100 psi rear). I'm going to try them at a higher presure first, then see about adjusting the valving. I haven't actually run them yet, but Mark has and he said they were too soft, I'm going to bump up the presure and see what they do. I prefer a stiffer shock for more control, but it's hard to guess how crawling will be effected by a shock stiff enough for near race conditions......why I'm interested in others experinces. Now, if I had the dough for air bumps and/or bypass shocks it might be easier to reach a compromose.

Well, I'll stop for now, or no one will read it all. :)

[Goatman]

I have the JKS links and they have been fine so far. I wish I had enough shock under the front to get ride of the anti-sway bar, but it is to tippy for me right now. Only problem I've had is the axle end mount for the link gets loose because of the stress. Last time I went to the desert, the bolt loosened and lower mount just fell off. The stock links will never last because of the stupid upper mount.

Marcus

I have quit running the sway bar, but I've wondered if it would be beneficial for pre-running. Since the last time I rebuilt my rear leaves (MJ length, 5" longer), if I keep my Rancho 9000's on 4 or 5, it handles fine without the sway bar (RE 4.5" ZJ coils). However, while I have more control, the rear is a little stiff with the shock at that setting. It's more comfortable set at 3, but less stable and would likely bottom out more easily. It was very stable and comfortable to drive with the sway bar on and the rear shocks set at 3. I don't know yet how stable it will be with the SAW's, I'll see soon. I don't have a problem with my sway bar links, since they are 1/2" heims on both ends with 1/2" all thread in between. The axle mounts are 1/2" pins in double shear, and the tops are bolted in double shear and bolted to the sway bar with no bushings.

http://fototime.com/1BBA63C8763BF88/standard.jpg

I used to regularly bend the tops of my links, which is why I put a joint at the top and bolted them to the sway bar. I think the JKS links have a joint at both ends, don't they?

[David Taylor]

Richard, I think we just need to plan on the air bumpstops. Anything less will be a compromise.

[Paul S]

Hey Richard-
I still have a very hard time keeping up with the Jeepspeed guys. While you're probably a better driver than I am in all situations, I think just the side and weight of your jeep will make it hard for you also... but it sure is fun to try.

marcus

So you're saying lighter is better, I better do some more cutting :D

You jeepspeed guys should post-up more. It's interesting to hear how the different demands we place on our XJ's take their toll, & maybe find some tricks that we can incorporate.

I can't wait to see what a Summer of building for go fast is going to bring to JV next season.

Paul

[XJJPR]

Richard Paul and I will still beat you back to camp!

:D

Oh, I should have those air bumps I got on mine by next JV season! :D

hinkley

[marcusguy]

What have you broken on pre-runs?

Um... Tore off my LCA axle mount and LCA, UCA mount on the axle, numerous shock mounts front and rear upper and lowers (rear upper broke and then came on up into the jeep to say HI), swaybar links (before JKS), and every shock that has ever been on my jeep except the 7100s, usually melted them and had the insides fall out although some snapped shafts and eyes off also. Broke stock motor mount. Tweeked my pass-side knuckle where the drag link attaches on one hard hit. My exhaust welds suck enough that they keep snapping on big hits. The amazing thing is that after about 2 years of prerunning, chasing, and just screwing around and driving way to fast when camping, and after all of the other damage, I've never blown a tire. BFGs seem favored in the desert and my A/Ts have been amazing. Before them I had Dueler A/Ts and went through 6 of those in one year with easier driving (only paid for balancing thanks to road hazard). My typical approach is to reinforce before something breaks. It's a lot easier to reinforce something still on the jeep than to pick it up off the ground pound it straight weld it back on and then reinforce it. The only thing I haven't beefed yet is the rear suspension mounts and I need to get on that before they go. I've seen jeepspeeds whose leaf spring mounts bust and the end of the spring usually tears a large hole in the floor.

Do you run stock bumpstops?
I do. I swapped the rears out for a while but went back to the stock ones because they work well enough and gave me more bump travel. Like you, I didn't think they would compress that much. When I was cycling my front end after putting some new shock mounts on, I bottomed out the front and with just the weight of the car resting on the front stops they were almost compressed to the metal. Maybe had a 1/4", at the most. I figure if just the weight would do that, any hit off road would probably compress them that last little bit. I am running the stock stops up front... till someone buys me hydraulic ones. I think that if I had the money (about $1000 for T&J's in SoCal to set you up), I would really think about a nice set of bypass shocks instead. Guys who don't run hydraulic will usually run something like the ACOS (sp?) up front with a stiffer, but as low-profile as possible stop, and a thinner hard poly stop in the rear. I think this is mainly because their suspension travel limits are measured from metal to metal and so the thicker the stop, the more travel you give up. Many of the prerunners and play/chase vehicles run the daystar or something similar.

I saw the picture of the sway bar links and thought of something else. I run the JKS now (RE drove me nuts and then gave up the ghost), and yes, they have a rubber spherical joint at both ends. I have the 4-6" lift version setup as short as I can and 2" of front bumpstop extension. When I bottomed out, the nut on the top of the top of the links dented and eventually punched holes on the inside of the wheel well. I saw it as my jeep doing a little self-clearance. If yours are much longer, you will have to watch for this. I doubt your axle will travel as far up as mine since you have much larger tires (37"s right?), but just though you should know.

I've been thinking about swapping my steering over like many of you guys, and moving my trackbar accordingly, but I have had time to see if it comes to close to the oil pan or not when bottomed out. Again though, you probably have more than 2" of bumpstop spacers in, but it's something to think about.

Are you running your rear shocks up through your bed? The motion ratio would be so much better. Once I have enough guts to start cutting holes in my 99 I will cage it and run some 16-18" sway-a-ways though the floor. Luckily the rear doesn't carry the weight the front does so even with my shocks laid down under the floor and stiffened up from the original 255/70, they still don't get as and fade like the fronts to.

With my set up, I have about 12" of travel up front (7up 5down), and a little over 14" in the rear (about 8.5up and 6down... oh ya, I'm running a full s-10 blazer leaf pack that measures about 57" eye-eye). It RARELY bottoms hard enough that I feel it, but I always have to drive home and prerun accordingly.

Anyways, I'm sure everyone else is bored.

Marcus

[gator_grabber]

Not meaning to hijack your thread, but I've been watching this discussion with some interest. I have almost the same questions, but the vehicle is a short bed Comanche. Do your suggested spring rate/shock valving combos apply equally to this longer wheelbase vehicle? I'll assume some things are a bit different...

[BrettM]

the Comanche is much lighter in the rear, especially if you take off the bed and just have fiberglass bed-sides like most pre-runner guys, therefore your valving is going to need to be different



and you guys really need to stop talking about all this; it's makeing me want to spend more money ;)

[pro-rallye]

yea...so there is there any benefit to running spring under axle rather than spring over besides the additional axle wrap control? i see a lot of toyota prerunners running this setup so it got me thinkin. any thoughts?

[gator_grabber]

My MJ will retain the stock bed, but your point is well taken on the shocks. I just want to be certain the rear end doesn't want to kick up on me after hitting a large bump. :eek:

[REDXJ4FUN]

We need more Jeepspeed guys here, I realy think we can share lot of stuff. I'm getting ready to buy a 2wd 2.5 MJ that is just beggin for some preruner treatment although here in VA there isn't much to play with but it could still be fun "speed bumps? what speed bumps?"I like the look of some of the glass front fenders and would want to put a set on. I like the fact that Jeepspeed has to keep factory mount locations so that its simple and It must work out because those guys seem to do realy well.

[BrettM]

yea...so there is there any benefit to running spring under axle rather than spring over besides the additional axle wrap control? i see a lot of toyota prerunners running this setup so it got me thinkin. any thoughts?
spring under also allows for lots of up-travel without putting the spring into a negative arch.

[Blazair]

I'm running a full s-10 blazer leaf pack that measures about 57" eye-eye). It RARELY bottoms hard enough that I feel it.

Interesting. Did the s-Blazer leaf pack move your axle aft? Or are the s-10 & S-blazer springs different lengths?

Thx,
Mark

[marcusguy]

Hey Mark,

I don't know if the Blazer and the truck have different lengths or not. My plan was to chuck the main leaf and put the others with my XJ main. But when I started measuring, and looking at my W-shaped xj pack, I decided to go for it. I had to redrill the blazer main leaf and I did go ahead and extend my wheelbase a little at the same time (without redrilling it would have moved my axle back like 5-6"). You wouldn't really know from looking because its only about 2.5". Reason I did it was for a little better stability when hauling in the desert, and because when bottomed, my rear tires hit the front of the rear fender (because the negative arch of the spring would pull them back towards the front). Now they are much more centered when stuffed.

[Goatman]

Marcus, talking about the shocks. The SAW's I got have bushings, not heim joints. Is this a potential problem for occasional prerunning? Unless I get out to a Jeepspeed race where I can run along with you guys, my quick runs will be much shorter.

From your shock specs, and those of the racers, it looks like you guys are running more compression dampening than the normal shocks come with.....100 to 115 in a Bilstein. What does this do to the ride, is it harsh at all when not running fast? I wonder how that stiff a shock rate would work in the rocks.

The rear of my rig, with the Rancho 9000's in back, was bucking in the whoops. Hopefully, the new shocks will damp more than the 9000's and eliminate that. Can that be controlled with shocks or is it mostly from springs that are too stiff? My rear springs, while able to carry a load, are pretty flexy and ride well. I use an MJ main leaf which is 5" longer than normal XJ leaves ( I forget how long that is).

I've already poked holes in the inner fender well on both sides from my sway bar links. My front bumpstops are lowered about 3.5", and I have 4.5" of up travel before the bumpstops hit, plus however much the bumpstops will compress. You have much more up travel than I do. With my tire size I would need to lift it more to get more up travel, and I'm not willing to do that. I wonder how much different it will work with a few inches less up travel.

My rear shocks upper mounts are in the stock location. I've looked at what it would take to run them up inside, but things are in the way, so it wouldn't be simple. I have 12" travel shocks in front and 10" in the rear. I get a little more than 10" of rear travel since the shocks are at a slight angle.

BTW, I'm almost finished rebuilding my rear shckle boxes. The captive nuts on both sides where completely ripped out and had been banging around for a good while from the looks of it. The compression of the bolt against the outside of the shackle box is what was holding it together. There were many cracks in both boxes that had to be welded up, then I boxed them in. I also welded the nuts to the back of a new plate and welded it into the inside of the box, against the frame (actually against the protrusion from the previously captured nuts). Inside plate is 3/16 and outside boxing is 1/4, so it shouldn't go anywhere now.

[marcusguy]

While I realize that something like ride quality is almost completely relative, I really don't think that my jeep rides rough. I prefer a ride that is controlled but not harsh or rough. A little firm is ok, and I think that I would still be happy with the ride if it had a little more damping. When I bought my shocks, I was worried about getting it to stiff also, but I remember when I first switch from DT3000s to the bilsteins how impressed I was with the improved ride. It didn't move around as much and seemed more supple than the DTs. Again though, relative. I would be more than happy to take anyone for a ride who is in the area and is thinking about valving choices. Won't be back in SoCal till summer though. I really don't think it would limit your rock ability any to have valving like mine or even stiffer. When I am just cruising around the desert at a relaxed pace, I disco the front anti sway bar and I fell it is just plush. In fact anything more than a relaxed pace (10mph) makes the front feel way to soft.

When I measure the 7" of up travel, that isn't including the rubber stop. I can't remember how long it is, but I think about 1.5-2". So, measuring as you did, I would have 5-5.5" of up travel, not much different from you. Many jeepspeed guys run the same lift height as I do, but with more bumpstop extension than I do. This is because they run 10-12" shocks that are 2.5" bodys and have a longer compressed length than my short bodies have. They also have 33" tires VS. my 32". That means that many of them sit in the same place in their ride height as you. You should be fine.

I'd like to see some pics of your rear box when you are all finished and have time to snap some. I will have to do the same thing soon.

I've been running the same set of bushings in the axle mount of my rear shocks for about 1.5 years now without any problem. I typically keep them aired up to 200-250 psi and it hasn't been a problem. I've been impressed with the 1/2 heim bilstein puts in standard, they are still tight. I originally got a 9/16 heim on the bottom of the front shocks and that one started clunking pretty fast. It has been swapped for a bushing also.

My dream is to eventually trim the front enough that I can take the 2" bumpstop extensions off and have the front axle stuff as far as it would stock. I would then have to run the shocks through the fender. That would give me at least 14" in the front if the droop is limited in the same place, and I've measured that I can get at least 2" more droop without doing anything extra to the front end... trackbar, steering, etc. Problem is that I don't think any lifted spring is going to have 16" of travel and still be about to compress enough to fit in the stock location when bottomed. So that means coilovers. After that, I just have to figure out what to do with the bumpstop. On the rear, I've thought about running the popular 62" long springs under the axle (with relocated eye mounts also) and shocks into the back for about 19-20" of travel, but I'm not sure if I'm serious enough for all that.

Anyways, I'll be home this summer and I am planning on attending the race Aug. 14 in barstow and most likely prerunning the afternoon before. Barstow is nice and rough and I usually break something... so you should all come :)

[Goatman]

You mentioned disconnecting the front sway bay.....do you prerun with the sway bar hooked up or not? Do the racers run with the sway bar? I don't mind a stiffer shock, I like the better control in the rocks and the crisper handling. I've run my rear 9000's on 5 both street and trail for a long time, it makes it just a little harsh on the street, but I can take the whoops faster, although 4 is what I prefer overall. I have some dips on streets close to my house that I see how fast I can comfortably take them, as a comparison (I do this with various vehicles from work, too, trying to better understand what works).

I just remeasured my front bumpstops to be sure I remembered what I did. The top is 1/2" lower than stock with the Daystar poly, and the lower is 3.5" with a steel spacer and two hockey pucs. I haven't run it yet with this combo, so I'll see what it does. I am concerned that I have the bumpstops and shock uptravel too close, about an inch difference....I'll watch that and see what it does. When articulating it's perfect, the bumpstop doesn't compress with over an inch of shock travel left.....plenty for bouncing down on something.

I'm charging the battery on my camera and I'll snap some pics and post them of the shackle box repair.

On my lower shock bushings in front, the bushing bound when fully drooped, so I made the mounts a little wider and used the misalignment spacers from Spidertrax on each side of the bushing to give it more room to move.....looks like it worked out well. any idea how much pressure the race guys run in their shocks? Can you tell much difference when you put more pressure in yours? I think I mentioned mine came with 150 psi in the front and 100 in the back, which I'm going to increase before deciding if I want to revalve.

How often are you totally aired out when prerunning?

What tire pressure do you run?

[Paul S]

Richard, the problem that I found when I had the SAW's valved stiff, or at least when they were valved to work really well at pre-running speeds, was that they didn't react fast enough on the trail. They worked fine if I was going slow enough, but with a softer valving I can go much faster on the trail. Mind you I'm talking 1st gear, low range either way.
Paul

[BrettM]

any thoughts on the new RS9000s with resevoirs?

edit: and does anyone know the going rate on them? or who has them cheapest?

[Goatman]

Richard, the problem that I found when I had the SAW's valved stiff, or at least when they were valved to work really well at pre-running speeds, was that they didn't react fast enough on the trail. They worked fine if I was going slow enough, but with a softer valving I can go much faster on the trail. Mind you I'm talking 1st gear, low range either way.
Paul

I was wondering about that.....how stiff would become too stiff for trail work. There is a test of various remote resevoir shocks in the current issue of Peterson's. It's interesting that the stiffest feeling shock on the street is the Bilstein 5150 with 255/70 valving, not what you'd think was stiff enough for prerunning, but they are charged to 360 psi. The article said they were very compliant on the trail and good for pre-running. The ProComp Pre-Runners are actually good SAW's and they were not quite as stiff as the 5150's on the street, very good at prerunning, but not compliant enough for the trail.

Makes me wonder about how much shock tuning can be done with pressure as well as valving. From the difference in performance of the 5150's and ProComps, it would appear that we could run a softer valving for good trail performance but a higher pressure for prerunning. I'll be testing this out with the SAW's, since our's are starting with fairly low pressure. I should have the rear shocks on to do some clerance testing in the morning.

mad maxj, check out that article, one of the four shocks in the comparison are the new remote resevoir 9000's.

[BrettM]

I was wondering about that.....how stiff would become too stiff for trail work. There is a test of various remote resevoir shocks in the current issue of Peterson's. It's interesting that the stiffest feeling shock on the street is the Bilstein 5150 with 255/70 valving, not what you'd think was stiff enough for prerunning, but they are charged to 360 psi. The article said they were very compliant on the trail and good for pre-running. The ProComp Pre-Runners are actually good SAW's and they were not quite as stiff as the 5150's on the street, very good at prerunning, but not compliant enough for the trail.

Makes me wonder about how much shock tuning can be done with pressure as well as valving. From the difference in performance of the 5150's and ProComps, it would appear that we could run a softer valving for good trail performance but a higher pressure for prerunning. I'll be testing this out with the SAW's, since our's are starting with fairly low pressure. I should have the rear shocks on to do some clerance testing in the morning.

mad maxj, check out that article, one of the four shocks in the comparison are the new remote resevoir 9000's.
yeah, i've read that article, and just read it again a few minutes ago. most (all?) of the other shocks are monotube, but the RS9000s are low-pressure triple tubed shocks. does that make a big difference?

most importantly, how much are they going for? i haven't seen any for sale yet?

if they're as much or more than 7100 non-reseviors, than i wouldn't even consider them because I'd rather have perfect valving than a resevoir since my desert jaunts would only be a couple miles.

[RobertF]

To shed a little light on gas pressure in a rebuildable, revalvable, reservoir shock.
You are not going to make the shock significantly stiffer or softer with a pressure change.
The pressure is exerted only on the cross section of the shock shaft.
Do the math, a 100psi increase on a 14mm shaft shock, an area less than a quarter square inch, is about 24psi.
Not really going to make the shock stiffer.
What is extremely important about the gas pressure is how it works on the oil.
The force the gas puts on the oil must exceed the damping force or the oil will cavitate going through the valving, the shock will fade, and your rig will turn into a flying pogo stick.
A stiffer valved shock requires higher gas pressure than a softer valved one to combat this.
Using unnecessarly high gas pressure will increase seal wear and shock stiction, so a manufacture recommends the pressure accordingly.
This is why Richard's rock crawling shocks use a lower pressure than Marcus's pre-runner shocks.
Raising the pressure in a softly valved shock will not make it stiffer and is unnecassary untill it is re-valved stiffer.

[Jump This]

What Robert just said.
I carry a nitrogen bottle with me for easy adjustment.....
I have found that my Bilstiens like lower pressure...add too much and they just get harsh and not so compliant.
I run 7100 series and have yet to get them too hot to the touch (they have huge res. on them)
Now for the disclaimer....I don't run these on my cherokee.
I run them on my buggie....
If I ran my cherokee like i run the buggie....it would be a wad of scrap metal by now....are you sure you want to beat the snot out of your XJ....at speed?
Unibodies......I love my cherokee....but these hi speed jobs don't last long!!
Rick

[CRASH]

Rich,

As you know, I'm in the midst of picking shock valving right now myself. I'm leaning towards 275/78 in the front in a 7100 series, with the new RE 7.5" XJ coil. I think it should be about right. I think when setting up a shock for our dual use applications, we need to keep the much higher front wieght of our rigs in mind. We're carrying a good 100 -125 pounds more out over our front bumpers than the JeepSpeed guys. This kind of extra weight demands more compression damping. The second issue is rebound damping. I think rockcrawlers need more rebound damping to keep the rig from feeling overly tippy when a tire falls into a hole, etc. Third issue, we are generally running a lot more spring rate in the rear than a JS rig, usually because we are hauling a mess of camping stuff!

In summary, I think we need to shoot for both more compression and more rebound than a JS rig.

CRASH

P.S. When you see the new URF "Super Long Arm" in action, you'll be too intimidated to even want to race back to camp!

[marcusguy]

I've tried running without the sway bars before, but it never liked it. I will disconnect them when I'm just taking it easy and cruising around the pits and stiff. I don't like how it rolls the car side to side when going straight, but it more than makes up for it when sliding around a corner or avoiding rocks. If I had twice the damping on all corners I would probably run without the bar. It's way to tippy when disconnected. None of the current racers I can think of run a bar. Ryan Wallace from rubicon express used to race a black 2-dr, and ran a front anti-rock bar, but he's the only one I know of.

To check your shocks, zip tie them and then catch some air (in a safe location of course). Your shocks will flatten the zip tie.

On my lower shock bushings in front, the bushing bound when fully drooped
What to you mean? Does your lower shock bolt go side to side or front to back? How much does your pinion rotate?

I agree with everyone else about the pressure. I don't think it will change as much as you'd like, or as much as your rs9000s. Racers run around 200 usually, but differences vary as much as 50 psi. Clive Skilton, the founder of jeepspeed has a cherokee set up like mine (same front springs, shocks, and valving). He doesn't like to go much over 150psi because he says it's stiff. I like running around 250psi. Doesn't hurt to play with the pressure though, I encourage you to do it.

Tire pressure is about 28 psi... street pressure. Racers I've talked to run something in the mid-20s.

Honestly, I know that I air out more than I realize. I know that because I was filmed once and was coming off the ground when I had no idea even one tire was up. I probably get high enough where I and my passengers know it 10 times on a prerun. I like air and catch it as much as I can.

[marcusguy]

http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/marcus2137/detail?.dir=/e86a&.dnm=3eba.jpg

Looks pretty bland, huh?

[Goatman]

Rich,

As you know, I'm in the midst of picking shock valving right now myself. I'm leaning towards 275/78 in the front in a 7100 series, with the new RE 7.5" XJ coil. I think it should be about right. I think when setting up a shock for our dual use applications, we need to keep the much higher front wieght of our rigs in mind. We're carrying a good 100 -125 pounds more out over our front bumpers than the JeepSpeed guys. This kind of extra weight demands more compression damping. The second issue is rebound damping. I think rockcrawlers need more rebound damping to keep the rig from feeling overly tippy when a tire falls into a hole, etc. Third issue, we are generally running a lot more spring rate in the rear than a JS rig, usually because we are hauling a mess of camping stuff!

In summary, I think we need to shoot for both more compression and more rebound than a JS rig.

CRASH

P.S. When you see the new URF "Super Long Arm" in action, you'll be too intimidated to even want to race back to camp!

Seeing as how I already have a well working three link, and you abandoned your radius arms to go to a 3 link......why would I be inimidated? :dunno: I think it will come down to which of us gets finally gets the stroker motor in first. :D

Good points about beeing heavier and carrying more weight, but from what I've seen and heard the stiffer valving the Jeepspeeders need is still too stiff for rockcrawling. Two examples are the current mag article on shocks where they said the ProComps where the best for pre-running, but the worst for rock crawling....not compliant enough on the trail. Paul said the same thing about testing a stiffer valving on SAW's. I'm sure a year from now we'll have much better info on this as we run them ourselves.

Marcus, my lower shock bolt runs for and aft, perpendicular to the axle housing. Yes, I have just a touch more pinion movement than I want. I'm making a slight modification to the axle end UCA mount, raising the arm a little which should cure it. My CV joint also bottoms out if I let the front end drop all the way to the ends of the shocks. It makes no difference when articulating, or when in 2wd with the hubs unlocked, but in 4wd the limiting strap is needed....to hold it about an inch above what the shocks will allow. Upper arm adjustment will take care of it.

[Goatman]

To shed a little light on gas pressure in a rebuildable, revalvable, reservoir shock.
You are not going to make the shock significantly stiffer or softer with a pressure change.
The pressure is exerted only on the cross section of the shock shaft.
Do the math, a 100psi increase on a 14mm shaft shock, an area less than a quarter square inch, is about 24psi.
Not really going to make the shock stiffer.
What is extremely important about the gas pressure is how it works on the oil.
Raising the pressure in a softly valved shock will not make it stiffer and is unnecassary untill it is re-valved stiffer.

What Robert just said.
I carry a nitrogen bottle with me for easy adjustment.....
I have found that my Bilstiens like lower pressure...add too much and they just get harsh and not so compliant.
I run 7100 series and have yet to get them too hot to the touch (they have huge res. on them)
Now for the disclaimer....I don't run these on my cherokee.
I run them on my buggie....
If I ran my cherokee like i run the buggie....it would be a wad of scrap metal by now....are you sure you want to beat the snot out of your XJ....at speed?
Unibodies......I love my cherokee....but these hi speed jobs don't last long!!
Rick


Robert and Rick, you guys are condradicting each other. I know I can't completely understand how pressure effects the shocks until I get mine out and play with it, but there seems to be differing views. Robert says the pressure won't affect it much, Rick says (and Marcus quoted Clive Skilton as saying) that too much pressure makes the shock too stiff.

Based on what I see about shocks, I don't agree that the gas pressure only exerts force on the cross section of the shaft, but I don't yet understand this thoroughly. The gas pushes against the oil, actually against the dividing piston between the gas and the oil so they don't mix. How I see it is that the oil above the shock piston is presurized and the oil below the piston is not....sort of (which explains, to me anyway, why a gas pressure shock always pushes the shaft out). In any initial compression force on the shock, as the piston pushes up through the oil the oil is going to push against and try to compress the gas. So, the gas does two things, it pressurizes the oil to fight cavitation and it reduces harshness by providing some give in the gas as well as resistance from the fluid. I know the fluid can't push up much against the gas, since the fluid can't expand below the piston without cavitation, but harshness comes from that intitial shock, and it seems to me that even a little give of the fluid against the dividing piston/gas will reduce harshness.....if the pressure isn't too high. Those Bilstein 5150's with 360 psi as opposed to the normal roughly 200 psi raises some questions.

Maybe it's time to get a nitrogen bottle and a 300 psi gauge. :)

[CRASH]

Seeing as how I already have a well working three link, and you abandoned your radius arms to go to a 3 link......why would I be inimidated? I think it will come down to which of us gets finally gets the stroker motor in first.

Pistons and rods should arive by the end of the week, block is already at the machine shop getting prepped. :D

Now the debate will rage over long three link (all my arms are 38" :D) ) vs. short 3 link!

Now you've got me wondering if the 275/78 rate is gonna be too stiff for the rocks next off-the-shelf rate down is 255/70. How do either of those rates compare to the SAW's? I think you said that you can convert SAW ratings to newton/meters, like the way Bilsteins are rated?

CRASH

[jjvande]

can someone post a schematic of these shocks? if the entire inner chamber is under the pressure of the gass(the piston has holes in it, so its not like an engine piston) it would seem that the cross-sectional area of the shaft is what the pressure is acting on.



did someone say that there is a rs9000 with res?

[racerdave]

Remember back a few post ago when it was suggested that you change the motor mounts? YOU MUST DO THIS IF YOU ARE GOING TO GO FAST! In one of my Cherokee's we went jumping and we busted the mount out of the block on the passenger side. I eventually fixed it, but this should be your highest priority. Get the good mounts in the motor/trans. And change the bolts in the block to the motor mount to grade 8. You don't want to go to all the trouble of creating a trick rig only to be sidelined with a busted block....learn from our mistakes :twak: :anon:
"first things first, the rest will come easy"
highmobilityinc.com

[BrettM]

can someone post a schematic of these shocks? if the entire inner chamber is under the pressure of the gass(the piston has holes in it, so its not like an engine piston) it would seem that the cross-sectional area of the shaft is what the pressure is acting on.



did someone say that there is a rs9000 with res?
yep, Rancho RS 9000X Pro Series. they're in the June Petersons in their resevoir shock comparison article

[CRASH]

yep, Rancho RS 9000X Pro Series. they're in the June Petersons in their resevoir shock comparison article

They are retailing for $179, about $5 more than a remote reservoir 12" travel 7100 Bilstein.

What a deal.

Not.

CRASH

[BrettM]

They are retailing for $179, about $5 more than a remote reservoir 12" travel 7100 Bilstein.

What a deal.

Not.

CRASH
thanks for that CRASH, that's all I need to know.

i'd rather have 7100s without resevoirs than 9000s with resevoirs.

maybe one of these JeepSpeed guys can answer this: How many miles, or how much time, of typical desert running does it take to overheat good (7100, etc) non-resevoir shocks? This of course has a ton of variables, but can you give me a general idea? 1? 5? 10?

[David Taylor]

crash, the 275/78 in the front felt good on the trail the two times I have run it.
But it was out at JV. Going very slow.
This summer on the con going along at a second gear pace is where it might be to stiff.
I'm just planning on getting hyd bumpstops to finish of the front. It's the only good way I see to get a progressive front end.

[Paul S]

Now the debate will rage over long three link (all my arms are 38" :D) ) vs. short 3 link!

Now you've got me wondering if the 275/78 rate is gonna be too stiff for the rocks next off-the-shelf rate down is 255/70. How do either of those rates compare to the SAW's? I think you said that you can convert SAW ratings to newton/meters, like the way Bilsteins are rated?

CRASH

I can just see you getting high-centered on your longarms going 70mph :laugh:

You're going to have to compromise somewhere on your shocks. When mine were valved too stiff they were incredible for flying out to Outer Limits, but they were only Ok in the rocks, they didn't soak up the small bumps at speed very well, & they were too firm on road (for my tastes). The way mine are valved now works great in the rocks, small bumps & rocks at high speed are almost invisible, & the on road ride is really smooth. I can soak up the worst on road dips around while drinking my double tall non-fat latte. I definitely cannot go as fast on the Outer Limits Hwy, but I can go much faster than I could with my old Rs9000's.

Paul

[Paul S]

maybe one of these JeepSpeed guys can answer this: How many miles, or how much time, of typical desert running does it take to overheat good (7100, etc) non-resevoir shocks? This of course has a ton of variables, but can you give me a general idea? 1? 5? 10?

I can tell you that when my non-remote Res. SAW's were valved for desert running I was never able to overheat them, now that they are valved for rocks they fade after about 20-25 minutes of very rough, fast driving. If I back off just a little they do much better.
I wouldn't bother with remote Res. unless it was in order to get the short body. Course my new shocks have remote Res., so what do I know.
Paul

[CRASH]

I can soak up the worst on road dips around while drinking my double tall non-fat latte.

The mental picture is priceless, and fully believable.

They'll be no hanging on these arms, or their mounts, everything is above the framerail. I can cover the whole driveline with a flat belly plate.

CRASH

[BrettM]

The mental picture is priceless, and fully believable.

They'll be no hanging on these arms, or their mounts, everything is above the framerail. I can cover the whole driveline with a flat belly plate.

CRASH
pics? :D

[CRASH]

It's still in the top secret URF R&D phase.....no spy shots allowed.

You can see it in person in about 2 weeks, but I'll have to ask you to relinquish your camera before entering the skunk works! :D

CRASH

[BrettM]

hmmm, maybe i can get one of those ultra stealth cell-phone cameras :D

I'm leaving MI friday, should be back before tuesday, anytime you want after that, the sooner the better for me of course, except for Thurs the 20th, that's my birthday.

[XJJPR]

I can soak up the worst on road dips around while drinking my double tall non-fat latte.

Paul

CRASHitt,

See everything with Paul has to do with wieght, even his NON_FAT LATTE!

:D

hinkley

[David Taylor]

Crash "They'll be no hanging on these arms, or their mounts, everything is above the framerail. I can cover the whole driveline with a flat belly plate"

Works for me.




http://www.ofoto.com/PhotoView.jsp?&collid=523686862103&photoid=123248862103

[Blazair]

Remember back a few post ago when it was suggested that you change the motor mounts? YOU MUST DO THIS IF YOU ARE GOING TO GO FAST! In one of my Cherokee's we went jumping and we busted the mount out of the block on the passenger side. I eventually fixed it, but this should be your highest priority. Get the good mounts in the motor/trans. And change the bolts in the block to the motor mount to grade 8. You don't want to go to all the trouble of creating a trick rig only to be sidelined with a busted block....learn from our mistakes :twak: :anon:
"first things first, the rest will come easy"
highmobilityinc.com

Where can I get some of these?

[RobertF]

This is in reference to quality, rebiuldable, revalvable, mono-tube, reservoir shocks.
What makes a gas charged shock extend after compressing it, is the gas pressure working on the cross section of the shock shaft.
The gas is pushing on the divider piston, which is pushing on the oil which is non-compressable, which is pushing on the only thing that can move out of the shock body, the shock shaft, and it's cross section is the area being pushed upon.
The shock piston has some form of bleed that allows the pressure to equalize on both sides, it is not a divider piston.
The bleed in some shocks is a notched valve shim, most a drilled bleed, some a replaceble jet, and some, like the MX-6, an adjustable tapered needle.
This bleed circuit aids in adjusting the low speed damping, when the shock is moved slowly, the oil bypasses the valving through it.
When the shock is moved faster, the bleed reaches its limit of flow and the oil must move through the valving.
The valve stack can be designed to give different low and high speed damping. This is not the speed the vehicle is traveling, but the speed the shock is moving.
Valving can be progressive, digressive, single stage, dual stage (low speed, high speed), and triple stage (low, mid, and high speed). You do not have to limit yourself to the five or so generic stacks Bilstein sells once you understand how to configure them.
Do not judge a shock by what some journalists say after bolting generic valved shocks (some which aren't even valvable) on vehicles that aren't even close to yours.
Some companies will not sell you valving because most people don't know what the hell they are doing.
Beyond valving, you can have bypass circuits with valve stacks controling the bypass.
I do not see why, with proper R&D work a good compromise of rockcrawling and prerunning valving can't be had. (and I don't mean by screwing the knob of a Rancho in and out, don't get me going on those, they don't even have valve stacks)
I gave an example of a large pressure change on a 14mm shock because thats what 5150's and 7100's are.
9100's are 22mm shaft shocks and the pressure is working on a larger area, but still not a huge change.
Most of the perceived stiffness from raising the gas pressure is stiction from the seal (the gas pressure gets behind the seal) grabbing the shaft so hard, the shock resists moving on small bumps, but still will move through the travel the same on a larger one, so no real benefit, just a harsh ride and high seal wear.
Paul S's fading problem with his rockcrawling valved shocks sounds like too low gas pressure allowing them to cavitate and foam up inside when driven hard. I'm sure they wanted to keep seal stiction to a minimum with a low pressure to keep the shocks as supple as possible.
Remember, suspension is a subjective thing, you only know the best you've been in, untill you're in better!
Keep up the R&D work, thats where the advancements will come from!

[BrettM]

Remember, suspension is a subjective thing, you only know the best you've been in, untill you're in better!

ain't that the truth!

[Joe]

Richard,

Are you thinking of building the Red XJ(with the custom 3link long arms :laugh2: ), MJ, or your main rig? You have some great options there. If your going to be around this coming Sunday I'll stop by and chat, I need to stop by Eric's house as well and ask him some questions on disconnecting my ABS so I can install the Dana 44 in the rear.

Joe

[Ed A. Stevens]

This is in reference to quality, rebiuldable, revalvable, mono-tube, reservoir shocks.
What makes a gas charged shock extend after compressing it, is the gas pressure working on the cross section of the shock shaft.

This may help?

Blow up a balloon about half full, and poke your finger into it. The pressure will lightly push out your finger with a resistance force related to the cross section area of the finger. Fully inflate the balloon, and it will push back with more force (as hard as you are willing to press before popping the balloon).

The resistance force you feel expelling your finger is isolated on the cross section area of the penetration (same as the cross section of the piston shaft), it does not force the finger sideways, even as you feel the pressure on the sides of your finger because the force is equalized on all sides of the finger (same as the shock shaft). The side force is equalized, but the extra pressure still restricts the blood flow to your fingertip, the same way the extra pressure adds friction at the shock seals (stiction).

Finding the pressure to achieve a balance between stiction (maximum pressure without excessive seal friction) and cavitation (minimum pressure needed to prevent fade) is trial and error unless you have considerable experience tuning shocks (IMO).


The valve stack can be designed to give different low and high speed damping. This is not the speed the vehicle is traveling, but the speed the shock is moving.
Valving can be progressive, digressive, single stage, dual stage (low speed, high speed), and triple stage (low, mid, and high speed). You do not have to limit yourself to the five or so generic stacks Bilstein sells once you understand how to configure them.



I have not rebuild a shock in many years, and never to the detail you describe, but what you describe is much of what we discussed when we were getting our 1600 car race shocks supplied and tuned by Curnutt. The review discussion after each race was focused on how the chassis performed and when it failed to perform, the shock speed when they did not work to an advantage.

The conditions were a challenge to describe and relate to shock speed: rear pogo kicking only in medium speed whoops or front lockup on high speed corregation ripples when easy on the brakes entering a whooped turn, as much as when the problems occured (early after a stop, or long into the lap). The valving changes (and a few spring rate and shock mount changes after monitoring temperatures) after each race debrief provided progressive improvements that resulted in a significant improvement in the ride and the sustained speed we could race without pain and breakage. Curnutt built bypass ports into the shock bodies to progressively alter the position sensitive dampening (long before Lightning Rod external bypass shocks) but the improvement isolated to changing the valve stack, by someone as experienced as Curnutt, was enlightening (to the point that I ignored learning how to improve on what he gave to us before each race).

Have you found a good reference guide on how to tune the valving?

My XJ modifications have been fairly static in the past few years, and a multipurpose crawler that runs well at speed, with more sophisticated shocks, may motivate me into playing with the XJ more (at least until I start building motorized toys for the kids). The direction you guys are taking (to higher speed performance as well as crawling) is where my interests have been for a while (my interests have been isolated with minimal feedback other than reviewing Jeepspeed forums).

[Goatman]

Richard,

Are you thinking of building the Red XJ(with the custom 3link long arms :laugh2: ), MJ, or your main rig? You have some great options there. If your going to be around this coming Sunday I'll stop by and chat, I need to stop by Eric's house as well and ask him some questions on disconnecting my ABS so I can install the Dana 44 in the rear.

Joe

I work this Sunday, but you can stop by there and say hi. I'm only working on my yellow XJ. The red one (with the URF prototype long arms) is just a motor donor, and doors and other misc stuff, then it's going to the scrap yard. The MJ is tempting, and it's 2wd, but it's sort of a reserve rig for if I totally destroy the yellow one one day. Old yeller is the baby, and the goal has always been to make it do as many things well as possible, so prerunning is the next step. We like Johnson Valley so much, and it's a great place for running fast as well as the really good rockcrawling trials.......so might as well have a rig that can do well at both.

[Joe]

I'm not sure if the boss will let me out of the house for the whole day, but I'm working on it. But I'll give you a call once I get to Bakersfield to see where your at. I'll do all the running around first that way you can work. But I'll give you a call. :callme:

Joe

[marcusguy]

Concerning the pressure thing:

The best I can describe the difference between 100psi and 250psi, is that it just feels a little tighter. Someone who only rode with me occasionally wouldn't notice the difference. The difference is about the same as when I first start driving on a cold winter day vs. after prerunning and driving on hot-slightly-faded shocks. Again, my father wouldn't even notice the difference, but I notice that the suspension moves a little less.

I talked with motorsports rep at bilstein when my shocks were making some noise once, and he asked me how much pressure I was running. I told him 100psi (wanted to see how smooth it was) and he said that was the problem. He said that the shocks are designed with a certain pressure in mind and that pressure is needed for the seals to work right and to keep the dividing piston from ramming the end of the shock or resevoir.
can tell you that when my non-remote Res. SAW's were valved for desert running I was never able to overheat them, now that they are valved for rocks they fade after about 20-25 minutes of very rough, fast driving.
I'm confused about this because the stiffer your shocks are valved the more heat they will produce and the more they will fade.

I don't know if I have ever 'over heated' my shocks because I've never had any lasting damage. They get very hot (especially at lower pressure) in 2-3 hard prerunning miles, but I've never blown a seal or boiled the oil. I have felt them fade, but only due to the thinner hot oil.

FYI Valvoline's pyroil power steering fluid works well as shock fluid. it's 5w hydraulic fluid and has something in it to keep it from foaming.

Marcus

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

So enlighten me as to why many of the new mods and things you west coasters do are "top secret" No pictures allowed? You're not planning to market the custom stuff, so what's wrong with keeping others up to date on progress and the thought process behind your design? Perhaps you just don't want to deal with a million questions? I don't know. I like to see progress on a design and know why someone would do something the way they are. Maybe it's just me? Jeff

[Paul S]

I'm confused about this because the stiffer your shocks are valved the more heat they will produce and the more they will fade.

I don't know if I have ever 'over heated' my shocks because I've never had any lasting damage. They get very hot (especially at lower pressure) in 2-3 hard prerunning miles, but I've never blown a seal or boiled the oil. I have felt them fade, but only due to the thinner hot oil.

FYI Valvoline's pyroil power steering fluid works well as shock fluid. it's 5w hydraulic fluid and has something in it to keep it from foaming.

Marcus

I thought it was do to the fact that at the softer 'crawling' valving they were working much harder at higher speeds than the proper 'high speed' valving did.
I was only running 100psi, so Robert's comment on pressure could play into it too.
Paul

[Paul S]

So enlighten me as to why many of the new mods and things you west coasters do are "top secret" No pictures allowed? You're not planning to market the custom stuff, so what's wrong with keeping others up to date on progress and the thought process behind your design? Perhaps you just don't want to deal with a million questions? I don't know. I like to see progress on a design and know why someone would do something the way they are. Maybe it's just me? Jeff

No one wants to be tail gunnner (excluding Mil), so we keep secrets from one another in order to get an edge, j/k. I'll tell you my top secret weapon that doesn't require any pictures, light weight!!! :shhh:
Paul

[CRASH]

So enlighten me as to why many of the new mods and things you west coasters do are "top secret" No pictures allowed? You're not planning to market the custom stuff, so what's wrong with keeping others up to date on progress and the thought process behind your design? Perhaps you just don't want to deal with a million questions? I don't know. I like to see progress on a design and know why someone would do something the way they are. Maybe it's just me? Jeff

It's pretty simple, my camera is unable to download pics at the moment!

CRASH

[marcusguy]

I thought it was do to the fact that at the softer 'crawling' valving they were working much harder at higher speeds than the proper 'high speed' valving did.
I was only running 100psi, so Robert's comment on pressure could play into it too.
Paul

The rule is that the stiffer the valving, the more heat (you're taking what causes heat-internal friction of the piston and oil-and increasing it). When running fast through the desert, you are going to use almost all of your travel constantly, whether your valving is soft or hard. With softer valving I just hit my bumpstops harder. I know from experience that low pressure will cause more heat and fade, so I bet that was the problem.

[BrettM]

It's pretty simple, my camera is unable to download pics at the moment!

CRASH
CRASH, I have a 2 megapixel Olympus that does a good job, I'll bring it when I come over. PM me when you get an idea of what day is good for you, again I'll be back the 17th or 18th.

[Goatman]

So enlighten me as to why many of the new mods and things you west coasters do are "top secret" No pictures allowed? You're not planning to market the custom stuff, so what's wrong with keeping others up to date on progress and the thought process behind your design? Perhaps you just don't want to deal with a million questions? I don't know. I like to see progress on a design and know why someone would do something the way they are. Maybe it's just me? Jeff

Want to see a pic of my URF prototype long arms? :laugh: :jester:

new long arms (http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17366)

[CRASH]

The design has been slightly modified since that picture was taken........

CRASH

[Beezil]

The designed has been slightly modified since that picture was taken........

CRASH

"sorry, no cameras please"

[Goatman]

Well, I got my needed repairs finished...welded crack in front D44 diff housing, repaired crack and reinforced frame near UCA mount, increased bolt size in UCA frame mount, and repaired and reinforced the ripped apart rear shackle boxes. Also completed reworking the bumpstops and installing the new remote resevoir SAW big bore shocks. I put tie wraps around all the shock shafts and took it out for a spin, and went to my usual spot to flex it up and check for clearance.

Both front and back hit the stops when flexed, with enough tire clearance (no rubbing the 37's), and with an inch of shock left in the front and about an inch and a half left in the back. It definitely rides better than with the previous shocks (Pro Comp ES3000 front and Rancho RS9000 rear, set on 4), and stability at slow to moderate speeds was good, better than I had expected. Stability at freeway speeds could be a little better, if I was going to take a long drive I'd consider putting the sway bar on, but the ride was very good. I hit a number of residential intersections with very large dips at between 20-30 mph, and bottomed out both front and rear suspensions. I couldn't feel the front bottom out, but I could the back, and the overall ride was very nice.....not jaring or severe at all. The back did have a noticeable thunk as it bottomed out, but much better than it did with the Rancho's.

Checking out the tie wraps on the shock shafts showed that the front shocks had bottomed out, but the rear shocks had about an inch of travel left. From this limited first drive, I think the front shocks could use one step up in valving for both compression and rebound, and I'll add bumpstops to the shock shaft while they're apart. I think the rears could use one step up in rebound valving, but the compression could be good. I'll soften up the rear bumpstops a little more to use up some of that inch of compression travel that I have. Of course, I'll check everything out in some speed runs in the boonies to veryify these initial conclusions before I do anything. I had increased the pressure in the rear shocks to 200 psi before I put them on, and I'm going to increase the fronts from 150 to 200 psi before I do anything else.

Having fun, :D

[jjvande]

any updates? i love this thread.

[woody]

any updates? i love this thread.

Yes! a good "back from the dead" thread!

[Goatman]

any updates? i love this thread.

Well, I did just start another thread on rear suspension, but here's a little updating on my experience.

The front seems to be working fine. I've raised the lower bumpstops a little so now I just barely bottom the shocks on a hard hit. The upper bumpstop is an extended Daystar that I have shortened slightly and cross drilled holes to make it softer. It seems to be working fine since I can't really feel it bottom out. The shocks are still too soft (remote resevoir Big Bore SAW's) and they will get re-valved shortly. I also am still running the RE ZJ coils, and I have a set of Skyjacker coils that I am going to cut down slightly to provide the lift amount that I want, which will also stiffen them some. Since the front is close, I'm looking forward to the stiffer valving and the stiffer coil working out real well.

The rear is a different story. It felt decent initially, but the shocks were too soft, and the bumpstops compressed A LOT, but felt OK. It swayed more than I liked with the soft shock valving. I raised the bumpstops a little to keep the shocks from bottoming on real hard hits, but then the bumpstops hit hard. I have the Daystar extended XJ bumps (with some holes drilled into them to soften them up some), with the gap/strap on the bottom, and that bottom strap part cracked and broke. Then the shocks totally blew, and it started hitting hard on the stops. I had the shocks rebuilt (poor quality SAW, but they're not production shocks) and the valving stiffened up, and also slightly lowered the shock mounts. The bumpstops were shrotened by removing the bottom part that was broken. Now, with the stiffer valving, it rides better, the side to side stability is greatly improves, the shocks won't bottom out, and it hits the bumpstops sort of hard but bearable. The problem is that the rear end bucks, but I can still run it faster than I could before. If I can get the rear end to buck much less, I'll be able to run fast enough to have plenty of fun. Check out the other thread about rear suspension at speed.

[Goatman]

Oh, BTW, it works GREAT in the rocks. It's comfortable at a pretty good speed down a rocky trail.


:D

[clayman]

I just bought a 94 xj 4 door auto 2wd and I am going to turn it into a pre runner. ive been reading alot about jeepspeed but i really dont like all the limitations in the rules.

here is what i want to do this summer (if i can afford it otherwise it may take 2 summers)...


1) Bumper to bumper roll cage with pre runner bumper and something on the outside of the back to mount a 33.

2) fiberglass in front and a bit of hammering welding and bending so I can fit 33s

3) completly cut the rear appart, even the door if i need. this will be done when building my roll cage so i can reinforce the unibody from all the cutting. since there will now be a large hole going into the back of my jeep i am going to build aluminum fender for the inside so mud and rocks and dust dont go flying into the rear of my vehicle. I want to fit 33s without a lift so my center of gravity is still low.

4) also when building my roll cage im going to build a shock hoop for the rear that ties into the cage

5) i will hopefully get 17" 9100 2.5in quad bypasses in the rear unless a friend comes through i will get 16" king 3.0 tripple bypass (for $500, he could be full of crap though)

6) i want to get 4" devers for the rear to pull that 17" of travel and also give me a bit more up travel.

7) for the front i am going to extend the 4 link so i pull about 22" of travel. im going to tie in the upper mount somewhere to my engine cage.

8) i hope to get 22" coilovers for the front

9) bumpstops

10) race seats and harnesses

11) ford 9" for the rear

ok now i have a few questions. what do i do about stearing? pulling that much travel am i going to have to make custom stearing or does someone make something like that?

what is the best way to strengthen the front axle?


i already put in M.O.R.E motor mounts and a M.O.R.E tranny mount.

am i going to need a SYE in the back with that much travel?

any other things i totally missed. there must be other things i need to do for safety and strengthening my vehicle.

thanks for the help

[David Taylor]

22" front coils? If you used all that shock the front axle would be half under the car at full droop. You would need really long front arms. The rest sounds good.

[prerunnerXJ]

have fun pulling 22" of travel with barely any lift

[Goatman]

I just bought a 94 xj 4 door auto 2wd and I am going to turn it into a pre runner. ive been reading alot about jeepspeed but i really dont like all the limitations in the rules.

2) fiberglass in front and a bit of hammering welding and bending so I can fit 33s

3) I want to fit 33s without a lift so my center of gravity is still low.

6) i want to get 4" devers for the rear to pull that 17" of travel and also give me a bit more up travel.

7) for the front i am going to extend the 4 link so i pull about 22" of travel. im going to tie in the upper mount somewhere to my engine cage.

8) i hope to get 22" coilovers for the front

ok now i have a few questions. what do i do about stearing? pulling that much travel am i going to have to make custom stearing or does someone make something like that?

am i going to need a SYE in the back with that much travel?

any other things i totally missed. there must be other things i need to do for safety and strengthening my vehicle.

thanks for the help

You said you want to fit 33's without a lift, and you're going to get 4" lift rear springs, and want to run 22" coilovers in the front.............that info doesn't jive, bro. Get some more realistic design perameters. Like Dave said, 22" of travel in the front is a TON, and I don't know how you'd do it.

Yes, you'll need an SYE in the rear.

You'll need a custom steering link setup, probably something with an idler arm, to handle even close to the amount of front travel that you're after.

[CRASH]

I just bought a 94 xj 4 door auto 2wd and I am going to turn it into a pre runner. ive been reading alot about jeepspeed but i really dont like all the limitations in the rules.

here is what i want to do this summer (if i can afford it otherwise it may take 2 summers)...


1) Bumper to bumper roll cage with pre runner bumper and something on the outside of the back to mount a 33.

2) fiberglass in front and a bit of hammering welding and bending so I can fit 33s

3) completly cut the rear appart, even the door if i need. this will be done when building my roll cage so i can reinforce the unibody from all the cutting. since there will now be a large hole going into the back of my jeep i am going to build aluminum fender for the inside so mud and rocks and dust dont go flying into the rear of my vehicle. I want to fit 33s without a lift so my center of gravity is still low.

4) also when building my roll cage im going to build a shock hoop for the rear that ties into the cage

5) i will hopefully get 17" 9100 2.5in quad bypasses in the rear unless a friend comes through i will get 16" king 3.0 tripple bypass (for $500, he could be full of crap though)

6) i want to get 4" devers for the rear to pull that 17" of travel and also give me a bit more up travel.

7) for the front i am going to extend the 4 link so i pull about 22" of travel. im going to tie in the upper mount somewhere to my engine cage.

8) i hope to get 22" coilovers for the front

9) bumpstops

10) race seats and harnesses

11) ford 9" for the rear

ok now i have a few questions. what do i do about stearing? pulling that much travel am i going to have to make custom stearing or does someone make something like that?

what is the best way to strengthen the front axle?


i already put in M.O.R.E motor mounts and a M.O.R.E tranny mount.

am i going to need a SYE in the back with that much travel?

any other things i totally missed. there must be other things i need to do for safety and strengthening my vehicle.

thanks for the help


Your plan seems realistic and well thought out. Good luck.

CRASH

[clayman]

first off even thanks to some of you guys for the help and to you other guys be helpfull instead of being asses.

ok with the 4in devers, i understand i will be lifting the rear 4in but at full compression i still need to be able to clear 33s unless i want to rub or destroy my rear fenders. what i ment is i dont want some disco lift like spacer to clear 33s

i dont understand the problem with pulling 22 in in the front. the upper mount will be way up in the hood and im guessing ill have coils that will lift my front in 2 inches. all i will need are much longer arms. it will be a 4 link like in a trophy truck. the only problem i see is stearing. its obviously not going to be all 22in of down travel.

i would appreciate people telling me why it wont work instead of just telling me my idea is stupid

[Goatman]

I think you have the start of some good goals. What you will end up with will be different when you actually start getting into it. I think it's obvious that we think the 22 inches of travel for the front is quite extreme. If you have the know how to build that, we should be asking you and not you asking us. I have roughly 12" of travel in the front, and if I let my limiting straps out for fast running I have to be sure to unlock the front hubs so my front driveshaft won't bind. I can't stuff it anymore than I do because my axle brackets already touch the frame on a hard hit.

Also, we'd be much more serious about discussing this if you were currently building it, rather than just thinking about doing something down the road.

Have fun, :)

[CRASH]

I think you have the start of some good goals. What you will end up with will be different when you actually start getting into it. I think it's obvious that we think the 22 inches of travel for the front is quite extreme. If you have the know how to build that, we should be asking you and not you asking us. I have roughly 12" of travel in the front, and if I let my limiting straps out for fast running I have to be sure to unlock the front hubs so my front driveshaft won't bind. I can't stuff it anymore than I do because my axle brackets already touch the frame on a hard hit.

Also, we'd be much more serious about discussing this if you were currently building it, rather than just thinking about doing something down the road.

Have fun, :)

Ditto the Goat, plus:

If you are going to try and get 22 inches of travel out of the frontend, why mess with the inferior beam axle design. If I was taking on your project, that would be the first thing I would cut out. Second would be the firewall. I'd move the engine back about 10 inches so that you would have room to construct well designed A-arms or twin traction beams. This would also help the balance of the car. Plus. you'd now have room for about 12 inches of uptravel. Us mere mortals usually hit the oilpan with the track bar at about 8 inches of up-travel.

Please show us progress pics when the sawzall has been operational.

CRASH

[prerunnerXJ]

yeah if you wanna pull the kind of travel that trophy trucks do, go buy a ranger... converting a XJ to a-arms or i-beams would be a great task, ive seen a beamed jeep, but his fabrication skills were amazing. and for caging a jeep, the unibody really isnt that strong. for a true prerunner/race truck id take a ranger over a XJ anyday. if you want some feedback from guys in the racing community in so. cal post up on www.dezertrangers.com . i post there and they're all very knowledgable in the fields of fabrication and racing. a bunch of well known fab shop owners and workers (i.e. camburg, dixonbros, blitzkrieg, esb...) post up on there and have a plethora of knowledge.

so i say...

1. sell your XJ
2. buy a ranger
(year is up to you, all 86-97 rangers had i-beams, 98-present rangers have a-arms) a-arms provide less travel with less of a camber change, while i-beams can usually pull more travel with a higher change in negative camber.

3. post up on DR
4. and build accordingly, i say build in this order, its most effective

a. glass / tires / wheels
b. cage / seats / harnesses
c. suspension

if you have any fab skills id say buy a welder, bender, and notcher and start practicing, for caging a ranger front to back usually ranges from 3000 - 5000 depending on materials used, MIG or TIG welded, and the complexity of the design.

good luck!

[CRASH]

the unibody really isnt that strong.

I disagree with this statement. A stock XJ is WAY stiffer than most ladder frame trucks, including rangers. Adding a properly built, well braced cage and other frame "enhancements" can make them incredibly stiff, though with a weight penalty.

CRASH

[prerunnerXJ]

thats why id rather take the ranger, and i agree, the unibody is strong with proper reinforcement but if you wreck it you're screwed. a new frame at a junker can be had for not that much $

still, id take IFS and 2wd for serious prerunning over a solid axle and 4x4 any day

[clayman]

thanks for all the help!

i love jeeps and i was just hoping to do something new that i hadent seen done to a jeep before.

idealy i would like to buy a toyota but that is way out of my price range.

also my friend just destroyed his second ranger. both of them fell apart. jeeps seem to be invicible.

ill try my idea this summer and post pics if it works.

i would love to have the typical "dude bro" with his ranger that his dad bought him give me crap as usual about my jeep and then show him how its done =)

ive never liked any vehicle as much as my jeep


thanks again for the info

[prerunnerXJ]

yeah keep us posted, id say just run a deaver 4.5 or 6" coil with a 2.5x12" well valved race shock up front with some 11 leaf deavers out back with a 14" shock run through the floor.

make sure when you cage it your frame tie-ins are super secure, id say build off the T&J frame stiffener kit, and use that as your tie in spot.

trim your rear fenders as much as you can, my 33x12.5s buckled part of the 1/4 panel when i jumped it out at ocotillo with trimmed rear fenders.

id say get 6" hannemann glass up front, thats what ill be running as soon as i sell my 4.5" glassworks glass.

[Silent]

What type of shocks, are good for prerunning and daily driver, and valve rates too please.

Silent

[BrettM]

What type of shocks, are good for prerunning and daily driver, and valve rates too please.

Silent
several people here have been very pleased with Bilstein 7100s with 275/78 valving. that's for the front. I believe they've said they would run the same valving in the rear with the shocks angled, but if they ran them through the floor vertically they would use something different.

do a search for "7100"

[prerunnerXJ]

id say run a 2.5" shock, most likely bilstein, fox, king, or sway-a-way.

if you really want a fine tuned shock, buy it with whatever valving it comes with, then take it out and test it at controlled speeds over some whoops. then take the video to a shock valver and have them custom valved.

i am personally running fox shocks and love them

[tcm glx]

update, dont let this thread die!!

[BrettM]

update, dont let this thread die!!
so ask a question or post some tech ;)

[Goatman]

update, dont let this thread die!!

OK.

I blew out my front SAW's, so I'm running my old Pro Comp ES3000's temporarily until I get the 2.0" Racerunners installed. With the stiffer coils, and the bumpstops just right, the ES3000's don't work too bad.....other than being too stiff and harsh. Stability is good though, better than my rig has ever been before.

After wasting the front SAW's, replacing new ball joints in six months, breaking an inner knuckle off the front housing, and breaking the sector shaft on the steering box...........I'm slowing down, at least over the whoops that put me airborne. :D

[Dingo509]

OK.

I blew out my front SAW's, so I'm running my old Pro Comp ES3000's temporarily until I get the 2.0" Racerunners installed. :D

I've been looking into swapping to coilovers in the front and have been told by tech guys at both SAW and Fox that i should use a 2.5" shock due to the extra weight we carry. the both said a 2" shock would be too light.

So what do you think CRASH after your recent experience with the 2" do you think the 2.5" would be better?

Dingo

[BrettM]

wait, are CRASH and Goatman the same person!? well ain't that a bitch.

[CRASH]

I love my 2.0 bilsteins valved 278/75. They are very good in the rocks and lovely in the fast stuff for short runs. However, Jes reports that they do get hot after extended desert runs. This is likely a function of valving. For running extended time periods in the desert, you really should run multiple shocks valved in the 150 compression range to keep the fluid in each shock flowing with minimal heat buildup.

Of course, if you are this serious about desert running, a bypass shock really ought to be on your list. The position dependant valving of these units makes tuning much easier, especially for controlling landings.

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

What exactly does "blew out" mean in this instance? Bent, smashed, leaking, look like a crushed pop can, look like a bomb went off inside them? :) Can they be rebuilt and why not if they can't? Now the racerunners that you refer to are what brand? Or is that the brand? Just curious. Jeff

OK.

I blew out my front SAW's, so I'm running my old Pro Comp ES3000's temporarily until I get the 2.0" Racerunners installed. With the stiffer coils, and the bumpstops just right, the ES3000's don't work too bad.....other than being too stiff and harsh. Stability is good though, better than my rig has ever been before.

After wasting the front SAW's, replacing new ball joints in six months, breaking an inner knuckle off the front housing, and breaking the sector shaft on the steering box...........I'm slowing down, at least over the whoops that put me airborne. :D

[Goatman]

I've been looking into swapping to coilovers in the front and have been told by tech guys at both SAW and Fox that i should use a 2.5" shock due to the extra weight we carry. the both said a 2" shock would be too light.

So what do you think CRASH after your recent experience with the 2" do you think the 2.5" would be better?



Dingo

A 2.5" is better, but I don't know about neccessary. Given a choice, I'd go with the 2.5", but coilovers are already a little tight on the front of an XJ, so you'd want to know that the larger springs would fit.....may have a problem contacting the frame on extension depending on your axle width. My SAW's that blew out were 2.25". Unless you're going to do some really serious desert running, I don't think it matters. The larger body allows for basically the same dampening force with less heat build up, the larger shock doesn't work as hard to do the same job. For trail work, or street driving, or short blasts through the desert, it doesn't matter.


CRASH is my alter ego.............



Well, he's my alter something, anyway.

[xuv-this]

just curious, could a 3-4" lift w/ shocks thru the floor, hyd. bumps, etc be made to have enough travel to be competitive?

[xuv-this]

if i was to build one for that, i would not so much worry about the front, just make it stiff but try to get a buttload of soft(er) sprung travel in the rear. how much would physically be possible with mabye elliptical or leafs or coils w/o removing wheelwells?

[Goatman]

What exactly does "blew out" mean in this instance? Bent, smashed, leaking, look like a crushed pop can, look like a bomb went off inside them? :) Can they be rebuilt and why not if they can't? Now the racerunners that you refer to are what brand? Or is that the brand? Just curious. Jeff

The internal seals went out, and the gas leaked into the fluid, so they don't work anymore. They are repairable, but since the rears have already been rebuilt, I decided to ditch them for now. I did like the valving, though, and I would have adjusted it slightly with a rebuild. They are Sway-A-Way Big Bore series, with a remote resevoir, and are similar in length to a Bilstein 7100 short body, basically a 12" shock with a 10" body, making them easier to fit on the XJ. The Racerunners are also SAW's, and are the shocks that come with their 2" coilovers. I'm leaning towards running just the Racerunner shocks without the coilovers.

[BrettM]

just curious, could a 3-4" lift w/ shocks thru the floor, hyd. bumps, etc be made to have enough travel to be competitive?
given enough time and money, absolutely!

bypass shocks and air-bumps are a great place to start. do you have $2300 for each Blackhawk shock?

[XJoachim]

I love my 2.0 bilsteins valved 278/75. They are very good in the rocks and lovely in the fast stuff for short runs. However, Jes reports that they do get hot after extended desert runs. This is likely a function of valving. For running extended time periods in the desert, you really should run multiple shocks valved in the 150 compression range to keep the fluid in each shock flowing with minimal heat buildup.

Of course, if you are this serious about desert running, a bypass shock really ought to be on your list. The position dependant valving of these units makes tuning much easier, especially for controlling landings.
Second that, i run the stiffer 360/80 in the front and they seem to be the perfect choice for me matching the 255s in the rear.

[xuv-this]

given enough time and money, absolutely!

bypass shocks and air-bumps are a great place to start. do you have $2300 for each Blackhawk shock?
what about just a set of hydraulic bumps on the uniframe? could 12-15" of travel be had with ellipticals or leafs mounted near the stock spring mounts and tied into the cage?

[Goatman]

I think I'll add another update to this thread, since I've made a few more changes. I have completely dumped the experimental Sway-A-Ways, the fronts were already removed and now the rears are toast. I've gone to Bilstein 7100 short bodies in front with 278/75 valving, and Bilstein 5150's in the rear with 255/70 valving. This combination feels pretty damn good so far, and is a decent improvement over the SAW's, which I didn't think were too bad. I had previously had some problem with the rear end bucking and that has gone away.

At first, with the new Bilstein's, the handling was pretty good but I still hit the bumpstops pretty hard now and then. I discovered that the frame had bent above the rear bumpstop on one side, so the stop was moved to the side enough to let the shock bottom out. I fixed the frame so the stop is back where it should be and the tie straps around the rear shocks are just barely touching the bottom of the shock shaft on the hardest hit.......perfect, and it feels good. I was also hitting the front stops pretty good on hard hits. I recently made a trip to Baja, and came back with both front bumpstops broken. I switched the front bumpstops to Prothane poly coil inserts, which are a soft poly and just sit inside of the coil. I made a small plate that bolted to the top for the insert to hit against, and the insert isn't attached to anything, it just sits inside of the coil. These things work extremely well, and are very progressive. I have 5.5" of up travel in the front, with 2" before the bumpstop first hits, then the stop compresses 3.5" on a hard hit.

I now have the best shock valving I've had so far, and the best bumpstops I've had so far, and it works pretty well. For strictly desert racing, I'd want a little more compression valving both front and rear, but for a combination of trail work and prerunning type stuff I think the valving is pretty good.

[Goatman]

Oh, and since those last older posts I cracked my front D44 housing again, this time jumping it (hit a smal bomb crater in JV). The front end now has a sturdy truss. So, I've cracked the center section and broken off an inner C running it hard and jumping.

Truss....truss.....truss.

[Dingo509]

Oh, and since those last older posts I cracked my front D44 housing again, this time jumping it (hit a smal bomb crater in JV). The front end now has a sturdy truss. So, I've cracked the center section and broken off an inner C running it hard and jumping.

Truss....truss.....truss.

Just curious, but what does the XJ weigh? and do you have the front and rear weights indepentantly?

Dingo

[FarmerMatt]

We weighed a bunch of different rigs a week or 2 ago. All had lifts & bigger tires. The average was pretty much 4800# for a setup XJ ready for the trail with spares & tools with driver. The split is about 60% front & 40% rear.

[David Taylor]

We weighed a bunch of different rigs a week or 2 ago. All had lifts & bigger tires. The average was pretty much 4800# for a setup XJ ready for the trail with spares & tools with driver. The split is about 60% front & 40% rear.

How about the Cat ? I'm thinking I might be down to 3800 after this last round of cutting. Not finished so I havn't run it by the scale yet.

[Dingo509]

i just weighed mine last night. 5300# 2 people 1/4 tank fuel. but that's a complete interior, full bodied Rig with lots of tools, parts and fluids, plus lots of HD parts, D44/D60, i'm not sure how to drop any weight though, it's still my daily driver so i can't cut the body and don't want to gut the interior.

Sorry this wasn't meant to be a hijack. It's just that i don't think (don't know) if the same valving/spring rates would be a good place to start for me as im so much heavier.
Dingo

[Matt S.]

I think I'll add another update to this thread, since I've made a few more changes. I have completely dumped the experimental Sway-A-Ways, the fronts were already removed and now the rears are toast. I've gone to Bilstein 7100 short bodies in front with 278/75 valving, and Bilstein 5150's in the rear with 255/70 valving. This combination feels pretty damn good so far, and is a decent improvement over the SAW's, which I didn't think were too bad. I had previously had some problem with the rear end bucking and that has gone away.

At first, with the new Bilstein's, the handling was pretty good but I still hit the bumpstops pretty hard now and then. I discovered that the frame had bent above the rear bumpstop on one side, so the stop was moved to the side enough to let the shock bottom out. I fixed the frame so the stop is back where it should be and the tie straps around the rear shocks are just barely touching the bottom of the shock shaft on the hardest hit.......perfect, and it feels good. I was also hitting the front stops pretty good on hard hits. I recently made a trip to Baja, and came back with both front bumpstops broken. I switched the front bumpstops to Prothane poly coil inserts, which are a soft poly and just sit inside of the coil. I made a small plate that bolted to the top for the insert to hit against, and the insert isn't attached to anything, it just sits inside of the coil. These things work extremely well, and are very progressive. I have 5.5" of up travel in the front, with 2" before the bumpstop first hits, then the stop compresses 3.5" on a hard hit.

I now have the best shock valving I've had so far, and the best bumpstops I've had so far, and it works pretty well. For strictly desert racing, I'd want a little more compression valving both front and rear, but for a combination of trail work and prerunning type stuff I think the valving is pretty good.


Rich, I am doing some research right now for shock on my "other" jeep. I am looking at the Fox Remote Res 12"f/10"r travel with adjustable compression valving front and rear. I am hoping that the adjustable compression will help tune the differences between street/rocks/sand. Do you think having this extra adjustablity is worth the extra money? I may very well be taking a shot in the dark with initial valving, but I have some good advice from a good shock shop. What you think?

Oh these adjustable fox shocks are not a ton of money, retail is around 220 a piece. Without the adjustablity, its like 180 a shock.

[Mr.OverKill]

......Oh these adjustable fox shocks are not a ton of money, retail is around 220 a piece. Without the adjustablity, its like 180 a shock.$220 or even $180 a shock is alot of money for most people, i want your job and financial responsibilities if $220 is cheap:shocked:

[Matt S.]

$220 or even $180 a shock is alot of money for most people, i want your job and financial responsibilities if $220 is cheap:shocked:



Ha.. yeah but you have to factor this, they are rebuildable shocks. So the initial buy is more, but they last essentially forever. I think that price is good for a great shock. Yes, they arnt coilover or airshocks, but I think we would all beable to justify saving pennies for the best ride you can get. Thats what I do, save pennies (and quaters sometimes).

[Mr.OverKill]

Ha.. yeah but you have to factor this, they are rebuildable shocks. So the initial buy is more, but they last essentially forever. I think that price is good for a great shock. Yes, they arnt coilover or airshocks, but I think we would all beable to justify saving pennies for the best ride you can get. Thats what I do, save pennies (and quaters sometimes).my wife and 5 kids take the pennies i earn and spend them and the ones i find on the ground are the ones i get for my jeep:shocked:

[FarmerMatt]

How about the Cat ? I'm thinking I might be down to 3800 after this last round of cutting. Not finished so I havn't run it by the scale yet.
I was down to 4K on the nose untill I added another 50# to each lower rear link... (OK , maybe a little exageration)

Matt

[Weasel]

Rich, I am doing some research right now for shock on my "other" jeep. I am looking at the Fox Remote Res 12"f/10"r travel with adjustable compression valving front and rear. I am hoping that the adjustable compression will help tune the differences between street/rocks/sand. Do you think having this extra adjustablity is worth the extra money? I may very well be taking a shot in the dark with initial valving, but I have some good advice from a good shock shop. What you think?

Oh these adjustable fox shocks are not a ton of money, retail is around 220 a piece. Without the adjustablity, its like 180 a shock.

If your going to take the time to tune them and have the patience then yes they would be worth the money.

[Goatman]

Rich, I am doing some research right now for shock on my "other" jeep. I am looking at the Fox Remote Res 12"f/10"r travel with adjustable compression valving front and rear. I am hoping that the adjustable compression will help tune the differences between street/rocks/sand. Do you think having this extra adjustablity is worth the extra money? I may very well be taking a shot in the dark with initial valving, but I have some good advice from a good shock shop. What you think?

Oh these adjustable fox shocks are not a ton of money, retail is around 220 a piece. Without the adjustablity, its like 180 a shock.

I have a pair of 12" travel sitting in my garage, and I'm trying to decide if I'm going to send them back or if I'm going to go ahead and spend the $570 shipped (cough...cough) and try them. When I ordered them back in late Jan I didn't know they were going to come with an adjustment for compression damping. That could be a real nice feature since the compression rate could be softened for trail running and then stiffened up for the fast stuff. I'm very tempted, even though I really like my 7100's. The Fox shocks didn't come in in time for my trip to Baja, so I went ahead and got the 7100's, and now three months later I get these shocks in the mail and a nice $570 charge to my debit card.

BTW, these are 2" body remote resevoir Fox Racing Shox with an adjustment for fluid flow into the resevoir that will change compression damping, and they have been extensively tested to dial in the valving for a typical built up TJ. We figure the TJ and XJ weights should be close enough that the valving should work equally well with both. This could be a great shock with the compression adjustment, and they come with the stock bushing mounts with a stud top mount.

Anyone want a a nearly new set of 12" 7100's valved 275/78? :)


Hey Matt, do you have any connections to work me out a trial deal? Leaving for BOTW in a couple of days. I hate to spend that amount of dough just to see how they work. I also wonder how the top post mount will hold up to pre-running, like bushing life and stress on the flimsy mount.

[Mike1331]

How much would you be willing to let the 7100's go for?

[Matt S.]

You hit my concern right on the dot. The stud mount. I am not entirely sure I can get these shocks with a standard mount on both ends. Talking back and forth with Poly, we are kinda thinking that this shock should revolutionize dual duty rigs. I am looking at fabbing or buying a coil over kit for the front of mine, then just using nice shocks.

As far as the mount for the XJ goes, I have always thought that welding some plate on the fender to spread the load out more would help with the usual problem of pulling shocks out. I think with the stud mount, limit straps have to be perfect. I dont see why the bushings would prematurely fail. Even if they wear fast, they are not hard to change by any means.

I dont know if I can get some shocks for trial, let me do some digging around. How long do I have?
I have a pair of 12" travel sitting in my garage, and I'm trying to decide if I'm going to send them back or if I'm going to go ahead and spend the $570 shipped (cough...cough) and try them. When I ordered them back in late Jan I didn't know they were going to come with an adjustment for compression damping. That could be a real nice feature since the compression rate could be softened for trail running and then stiffened up for the fast stuff. I'm very tempted, even though I really like my 7100's. The Fox shocks didn't come in in time for my trip to Baja, so I went ahead and got the 7100's, and now three months later I get these shocks in the mail and a nice $570 charge to my debit card.

BTW, these are 2" body remote resevoir Fox Racing Shox with an adjustment for fluid flow into the resevoir that will change compression damping, and they have been extensively tested to dial in the valving for a typical built up TJ. We figure the TJ and XJ weights should be close enough that the valving should work equally well with both. This could be a great shock with the compression adjustment, and they come with the stock bushing mounts with a stud top mount.

Anyone want a a nearly new set of 12" 7100's valved 275/78? :)


Hey Matt, do you have any connections to work me out a trial deal? Leaving for BOTW in a couple of days. I hate to spend that amount of dough just to see how they work. I also wonder how the top post mount will hold up to pre-running, like bushing life and stress on the flimsy mount.

[Mike L]

I dont know if I can get some shocks for trial, let me do some digging around. How long do I have?

Hey Matt, do you have any connections to work me out a trial deal? Leaving for BOTW in a couple of days. I hate to spend that amount of dough just to see how they work. I also wonder how the top post mount will hold up to pre-running, like bushing life and stress on the flimsy mount.

:kissyou:

[Weasel]

You hit my concern right on the dot. The stud mount. I am not entirely sure I can get these shocks with a standard mount on both ends. Talking back and forth with Poly, we are kinda thinking that this shock should revolutionize dual duty rigs.


So these are clicker shocks? If thats the case then yeah I would definatly get them. I've been looking hard at the Walker/Dynatrac clicker shocks for a TJ. And if they come with the stud mount then thats even better. Really if your using the stock XJ shock bracket eye or not should matter as the JKS conversion bolt into the same spot as well. A additonal plate in the area would definalty help pull out.

[Goatman]

Thanks, Mike. :D

I haven't talked to Dave, but was thinking about it. If they had come in when they were expected to I'd be running them right now. I think someone needs to try them on an XJ so we can see what they do, especially with the ability to adjust compression valving for dual purpose.......which happens to be a big deal to many of us with XJ's.

I don't need them for free, just would like some kind of break to ease the pain of $570 just to see how they work. We could even swap them around some at BOTW so different folks could try them out and give some feedback. The only problem with me trying them is that my lower mount is only for a heim joint, to mount these up with bushings I'll have to figure something out. I wonder if the bushing uses a 1/2" bolt, or comes with a sleeve, then I guess it wouldn't be hard to mount up.

A good quality shock, with valving that is close, with the ability to adjust compression for slow work and fast work, and they can still be re-valved to dial them in. Could be sweet.

[Goatman]

So these are clicker shocks? If thats the case then yeah I would definatly get them. I've been looking hard at the Walker/Dynatrac clicker shocks for a TJ. And if they come with the stud mount then thats even better. Really if your using the stock XJ shock bracket eye or not should matter as the JKS conversion bolt into the same spot as well. A additonal plate in the area would definalty help pull out.

Yeah, they have a clicker adjustment on the reservoir that changes fluid flow into the reservoir which changes compression damping.

Fox Shock at Poly Performance (http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/product.php?productid=497&cat=34&page=1)

After looking on this site, it says conflicting things.....one place says only rebound dampening, another says compression dampening, but on the phone they said compression dampening.

[Weasel]

Those are very similar to the Dynatrac and Walker Shocks. On the Dynatrac site they list the shocks for XJ's as well.

http://www.dynatrac.com/products_sstshocks.html

http://walkerevansracing.com/shock.kits/#jeep

[tcm glx]

Well, lets keep the thread alive......currently, I am running Rancho Pro Series in the front and they work awesome, have Superlift coils and daystar bumps...around 4" of lift. IN the rear, rough country springs, also daystar bumps with DPG Adjustable bump stop plates and Rancho RS9000 shocks (non res). They are the specific shocks for the TJ, and so the valving is setup for the weight of our rigs....I like it alot....I typically chase for a Jeepspeed guy so this truck is out on the whoops at least once a month. And it runs real good. I am limited to around 4-5" of uptravel though, and the rough country springs do not droop as much as I would like....any recomendations for rear leafs that will droop down 5-7"

[JEEPSPEEDRCR]

I am running the full-traction 6in long arm on my 01, w/ 1.75in coil spacer and bump stop extension, no sway bars. fox 11in travel remote resi in the front and emulsions in the rear. the front handles awsome. i have 6.5in of uptravel on the shock and about 6in before the bumpstop hits. the rear bucks and bottoms a lot. it has about 4in of uptravel before the bump hits the extension off the spring plate. the rear shocks are a tad long. I was sold these shocks when i first got into prerunning from ORW and they said that these shocks would be perfect for my kit. turns out the fronts were way to long, thats why i have the extensions and coil spacer. I need shocks w/ a shorter compressed length in the front but the same extended length which is the problem. In the rear i just need to try to sell my 11in travel emulsions and buy some 10in travel resi's. I also need some ideas for bumps in the front because at full-compression the bump hits the left side of the pad because of the trackbar pulling the axle so far over to the right side. If you have any ideas let me know. I need to get this figured out before desert season this year.

[miketyson]

why are long arms better for pre-running? i understand for rockcrawling how the flex is helpfull, but wouldnt it make you more likely to roll if going fast? keep in mind i dont know much about longarms

[karstic]

why are long arms better for pre-running? i understand for rockcrawling how the flex is helpfull, but wouldnt it make you more likely to roll if going fast? keep in mind i dont know much about longarms


Longarms flatten out the angle of the control arm to the ground surface, in a nutshell making for a smoother ride. I'm sure others can explain more fully.

[Skullver]

Longarms flatten out the angle of the control arm to the ground surface, in a nutshell making for a smoother ride. I'm sure others can explain more fully.
also the arc that the suspension travels is larger making for better angles during extreme travel, less caster change etc, more responsive steering, this is for 4-link long arms, not sure on the y-link long arms as I haven't really played with them, heard they have some strange "dive" issues

[karstic]

also the arc that the suspension travels is larger making for better angles during extreme travel, less caster change etc, more responsive steering, this is for 4-link long arms, not sure on the y-link long arms as I haven't really played with them, heard they have some strange "dive" issues

Told you some one smarter than me would chime in.

[TNT]

I'm planning on a prerunner style suspension on mine. I aslo have a HP D60 and a 14 bolt I could use but the axle wieght would ruin it I suspect. Anyone have any thought about using these axles. If I do I'll run 37's or so with about 6" of lift and lots of cutting. Otherwise I'll just stick with my 8.25 and D30 and truss them. I would run 33's with them. I'm really looking for a bulletproof set-up that hands good higher speed rides decently and general offroad use.. I need to regear my stock axles, add lockers and better brakes which would cost about the same as setting up my 1 tons... What to do...

Any opinions would be great. Thanks

[IHCJ9]

I am new to this forum because I just bought a Cherokee, but I build design and fabricate tube chassis baja vehicles. They are on the smaller scale of single seaters. We put about 300 hours of design into each car before we build. I'd like to put my two cents in about desert blasting.

We pound and abuse our vehicles for many hours before each competition to obtain accurate data to make them lighter and faster. The biggest problem that we run into is the fatiguing the suspension tabs and breaking them off.

I read somewhere in this thread about someone taking their front swaybar off. We have tested and competed with and without, and the data shows that with the front sway bar, we are able to enter corners much faster and reduce the chance of rolling. The transfer of the spring through the sway bar keeps our inside tire planted and the body roll to a minimum, producing less energy lost and faster lap times.

We have also found that reducing the rotating mass helps increase our speed exponentially. We run modified CVT clutches (snowmobile clutches) with about a fourth of the weight machined out. We also run custom gearboxes, and the lightest wheels and tires we can find. We have found that a reduction of 10 pounds in our 700 pound vehicles equals a decrease of about .1 seconds in the 150 yard acceleration.

For suspension, we run any combination of double aarm, TTB, four link, or solid swing axle, the amount of travel is limited and adjusted according to each competition. But we have to run well designed bumpstops in order to limit the force transfered into the frame when we bottom out. We start breaing things when we bottom out.

Those are my two cents. If anyone has specific questions about this, please just ask and I will try to answer as best I can.

[Weasel]

and the data shows that with the front sway bar, we are able to enter corners much faster and reduce the chance of rolling. The transfer of the spring through the sway bar keeps our inside tire planted and the body roll to a minimum, producing less energy lost and faster lap times.



not quite right there. adding a front swaybar will increase your front roll moment or the amount of froce require to roll the front suspension about your roll center.

However your result are intersting as I would have thought that removing the front swaybar would have the opposite effect or make you handle better. The rear would not roll as much and not bit as hard and slide, ie induce a bit of oversteer to bring the rear end around.

What kind of vehicles are you building? How are they powered? Thanks for sharing, it's great to have test data to look at.

[IHCJ9]

The vehicles we build are designed around a fairly strict set of rules to protect the driver. but here is a quick layout of the cars.

-Single seat, 1.25 4130 chromoly frame, TIG welded
-SAE rules require all teams to use 10hp Briggs and Stratton engines, a little under-powered but thats what we have to work with.
-Most are rear engine with CVT clutches going to either a CNC spur gearbox, Chaincase, or CNC planetary gearbox, all of which we design.
-The most common front suspension is a double aarm. Last year we tried a cross over long travel aram design. 21" of travel with 25" tires. Most front suspensions use cutsom spindles and 16" of travel at the wheel.
-Rear suspension is commonly double aarm with 12-15" of travel at the wheel with CNC half-shafts and bearing carriers. Right now we are running a three link solid axle setup with an modified axle out of a Polaris Ranger.
-Top speed of 35-45 mph with a two speed tranny.
-We routinely jump them 12-15 feet in the air and beat them fairly well.

In the sway bar design, we have found that a double aarm suspension reacts well to a sway bar setup. Our coilovers are set up fairly soft for most of their travel, this leads to quite a bit of body roll in some cars. with our 4 link solid axle car, the inside front wheel lifts off the ground during cornering. This comes from our front and rear roll centers not being in the same plane. the sway bar conteracts this in quick, fast turns, allowing us to keep both front wheels on the ground and keep the traction necessary to make the turn. As the inside springs go to full droop, the torsion bar transfers some of that force to the outside aarm, effectively stiffening that side. Without it, the body roll takes a lot of momentum out of the turn, causing us to understeer a little bit.

This program is sponsored by SAE and about 160 Universities accross the world compete. Feel freet o check out our site at www.baja.mtu.edu
Thanks for clarifying that, It is late here and I missed it.

[IHCJ9]

http://baja.mtu.edu/media/midwest/2006/005.jpghttp://baja.mtu.edu/media/midwest/2006/006.jpghttp://baja.mtu.edu/media/midwest/2006/004.jpghttp://baja.mtu.edu/media/winterbaja/2006/013.jpghttp://baja.mtu.edu/media/testing/2004/001.jpghttp://baja.mtu.edu/media/testing/2004/004.jpghttp://baja.mtu.edu/media/testing/2004/007.jpg

[IHCJ9]

None of these cars have their sway bars on in the photos. I need to upload the latest testing photos, It may be a while. But the website baja.mtu.edu also shows the Computer Aided Design we do on these cars.

I hope this can help some of the fullsize people wanting to baja their jeep. A lot of our technology goes into stadium trucks and Trophy tucks like Scott Taylor's truck.

[Uglygreenxj]

Well, I know it's kinda worthless without pictures, but after alot of research I am finally in the middle of installing hydraulic bumpstops on my 93. Doesn't seem like many folks are running them in here so I couldn't find much info. or any photos here (there is some good info. on the Jeepspeed site though). Anyway, I will definitely post up some photos when I get more done.

[IHCJ9]

Yeah hydraulic bumpstops are the latest fad in a lot of off road racing, but they are pricey! Post pictures when you can. I'd like to see them on a cherokee

[Weasel]

Michigan Tech?

Is that 700 pounds loaded with a driver?

Ours are about 550 with me driving.

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n199/Roktgr/Incoming/IMGP0849.jpg

And we had fun at winter comp. I'm with SDSM&T baja racing.

[TNT]

I'm planning on a prerunner style suspension on mine. I aslo have a HP D60 and a 14 bolt I could use but the axle wieght would ruin it I suspect. Anyone have any thought about using these axles. If I do I'll run 37's or so with about 6" of lift and lots of cutting. Otherwise I'll just stick with my 8.25 and D30 and truss them. I would run 33's with them. I'm really looking for a bulletproof set-up that hands good higher speed rides decently and general offroad use.. I need to regear my stock axles, add lockers and better brakes which would cost about the same as setting up my 1 tons... What to do...

Any opinions would be great. Thanks


I think I'll answer mine own question, since no one else did...:looney:

Stick with the stock axles and truss them. The extra unsprung weight would kill the ride and handling. Shocks would also be doing a ton more work and the added stress would be very hard on the unibody. Just sell the other axles and use the money to build the stock ones.

Hows that for an answer??? :wierd:

[woody]

It all depends on your budget & expectations...

Depending how hard you plan to whale on the XJ, it'll take some coin and/or some fab skills. JeepSpeed gives some good points in the right direction, but remember that they are rules-limited with the 'intent' of keeping the class 17 'affordable'.

Keep in mind that those vehicles are pretty much "gone through" after each race. And what works well for serious 'pre-running' may not jive with making it the best low-speed crawler. Consider what your after.

I am with you on the stock axle deal, to a point. If one was hammering the XJ hard, consider a 'polished' D30 to be very expendable. The stock 8.25, 44 or common 8.8 rear swap maybe a little more long-lived, but also kinda expendable. Trusses, gussets & alloy shafts can't hurt... but still.

Focus a large bit on shock absorbers & bumpstops... Those components are the ones that'll make you the happiest IMO.

[IHCJ9]

The 700 lbs is our heaviest car.. Dry weight of 450 lbs, add 150 to 200lbs driver, and then we add weight to simulate mud that gets packed into every nook and cranny of the car. We use 700 as a rough estimate.

So in reality it may only weigh 550 lbs at the beginning. But at the end we've weighed them at well over 850 lbs at this years UofW Stout competition.

[Weasel]

I think I'll answer mine own question, since no one else did...:looney:

Stick with the stock axles and truss them. The extra unsprung weight would kill the ride and handling. Shocks would also be doing a ton more work and the added stress would be very hard on the unibody. Just sell the other axles and use the money to build the stock ones.

Hows that for an answer??? :wierd:

I would agree with this. use trusses and geometry to add strength rather the jsut raw material is always better imo.

[Uglygreenxj]

Just thought I'd post up some pics of the progress on the rear hydraulic bumpstops. It was all just tacked in place with the bumps in place to check for alignment at this point. More pics to follow when finished.

http://inlinethumb61.webshots.com/4220/2695481580049057516S425x425Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2695481580049057516UAHjhm)

http://inlinethumb15.webshots.com/2446/2651735270049057516S425x425Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2651735270049057516bgdtYZ)

http://inlinethumb52.webshots.com/3763/2252199090049057516S425x425Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2252199090049057516SvSUZc)

Sorry about this last one being sideways, I couldn't figure out how to rotate it with webshots, I guess I just wont take anymore like that!

[TNT]

Here you go.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o182/TNTACR/2252199090049057516S425x425Q85.jpg?t=1175207687

[Uglygreenxj]

Here's the finished product in the rear. Off to do the fronts now, hopefully they'll be a little easier, the rears were a pain.

http://inlinethumb62.webshots.com/5053/2850001010049057516S425x425Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2850001010049057516ypOsIP)

http://inlinethumb62.webshots.com/1661/2847507210049057516S425x425Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2847507210049057516Epofvz)

http://inlinethumb32.webshots.com/1183/2475027080049057516S425x425Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2475027080049057516geghnv)

I kinda copied the design from the TMR Jeepspeed, I hope they don't mind, it just looked too good not to. Turned out nice I think.

[Goatman]

Nice job. I still want air bumps in the rear of the XJ one of these days.......

How did you secure the bumps in the mounting cans?

[Uglygreenxj]

Nice job. I still want air bumps in the rear of the XJ one of these days.......

How did you secure the bumps in the mounting cans?

I ordered the kit from T&J for the front and they simply drilled a hole in the side of the can and tapped it, and installed a set screw with a jam nut. I have heard of the clamp style ones squeezing the bump too much and not allowing the piston to move freely so I assume that is why they changed it to this style. Anyway, I didn't feel that it was enough material to tap so I drilled a hole in the can and welded a flanged nut to the outside of the can and then installed a set screw and jam nut. We'll see how it holds up.

[Goatman]

I ordered the kit from T&J for the front and they simply drilled a hole in the side of the can and tapped it, and installed a set screw with a jam nut. I have heard of the clamp style ones squeezing the bump too much and not allowing the piston to move freely so I assume that is why they changed it to this style. Anyway, I didn't feel that it was enough material to tap so I drilled a hole in the can and welded a flanged nut to the outside of the can and then installed a set screw and jam nut. We'll see how it holds up.

Well, that's what it looked like, but I wondered. How thick is the wall of the bump stop tubing? If the clamp type would squeeze it too much, it seems like a set screw could damage it also. Hmmmm.......

[Uglygreenxj]

Well, that's what it looked like, but I wondered. How thick is the wall of the bump stop tubing? If the clamp type would squeeze it too much, it seems like a set screw could damage it also. Hmmmm.......

That worried me too. I don't know what the wall thickness is of the bumps. I figured that the guys that are racing are way harder on them than I will be and it's working for them so...... Plus, I wouldn't have had room to build mine with clamps. I had to mount mine a bit higher than most do due to already having pads built on my axle and I didn't want to pull the axle to change it at this stage.

[Skullver]

That worried me too. I don't know what the wall thickness is of the bumps. I figured that the guys that are racing are way harder on them than I will be and it's working for them so...... Plus, I wouldn't have had room to build mine with clamps. I had to mount mine a bit higher than most do due to already having pads built on my axle and I didn't want to pull the axle to change it at this stage.
I really wouldn't worry about the set screw, they are made to keep the bump from falling out which is not very likely as it was a real tight fit on mine, had to grease them up good and even hit the inside with a drum sander after welding shrinkage to even get them in, not doing anything towards compression as the lip of the bump is tight against the tubing stopping any movement. Looking really good, may have to change your user name as it is not ugly IMO.
Chris

[Uglygreenxj]

I really wouldn't worry about the set screw, they are made to keep the bump from falling out which is not very likely as it was a real tight fit on mine, had to grease them up good and even hit the inside with a drum sander after welding shrinkage to even get them in, not doing anything towards compression as the lip of the bump is tight against the tubing stopping any movement. Looking really good, may have to change your user name as it is not ugly IMO.
Chris

Thank you for the complement! I used 2-1/4" O.D. tubing with a thinner wall thickness than .120 so that I wouldn't have the shrinkage issues I had heard about. It didn't shrink up much if at all so they actually fit loosly. I finally got the fuel cell installed and plumbed today and started the Jeep up and drove it for the first time in over a year! Even with the front windows down and the rear windows gone, the exhause fumes come in pretty badly with no hatch. I'll have to figure something out.

[Jump This]

Its important to realize the eddy (sp?) effect our Jeeps have from having a large flat back window area. Without a rear window you will be pulling exhaust fumes thru your rig, open windows or not. You might look into a side exit point for the muffler.
My exhaust exits just about the same point as yours. I don't do much high speed stuff (you guys are all nuts!) but I still pull in fumes just from around my shock towers (inside mounted.)
How are the other Jeepspeed guys dealing with it.....?

Rick

[Skullver]

Its important to realize the eddy (sp?) effect our Jeeps have from having a large flat back window area. Without a rear window you will be pulling exhaust fumes thru your rig, open windows or not. You might look into a side exit point for the muffler.
My exhaust exits just about the same point as yours. I don't do much high speed stuff (you guys are all nuts!) but I still pull in fumes just from around my shock towers (inside mounted.)
How are the other Jeepspeed guys dealing with it.....?

Rick
Parker pumper fresh air system, just don't spill any gas near the intake or you will smell it/breathe it for a bit. Ours will have the exhaust coming behind/under the driver door

[Jump This]

Parker pumper fresh air system, just don't spill any gas near the intake or you will smell it/breathe it for a bit. Ours will have the exhaust coming behind/under the driver door


That is what I thaught.
But look at the problem from a hobbiest point of view.
A Parker system isn't cheap and is most effective for dust situations right?
So to solve the pulling in of fumes you need to move the exit point of the exhaust into a 'moving' air flow area. There are certainly many ways of doing that. The pipe can exit below the rear axel, not rock friendly. Or you could have it well above the roof line, completely effective , but I'd bet it would look ugly as sin. Or move it to a side exit point.
You guys try all of those and let me know which one works the best.
:D

Rick

[Uglygreenxj]

That is what I thaught.
But look at the problem from a hobbiest point of view.
A Parker system isn't cheap and is most effective for dust situations right?
So to solve the pulling in of fumes you need to move the exit point of the exhaust into a 'moving' air flow area. There are certainly many ways of doing that. The pipe can exit below the rear axel, not rock friendly. Or you could have it well above the roof line, completely effective , but I'd bet it would look ugly as sin. Or move it to a side exit point.
You guys try all of those and let me know which one works the best.
:D

Rick

I use my Jeep for rock crawling also, so a side exit exhaust would get mangled really quick. And parker pumpers and helmets aren't really practical for what we'll be using it for so they're out. And since I plan to still drive it on the street ocasionally I can't really ditch the windsheild either. I was thinking about installing some of the vents in the roof I've seen on some of the Jeepspeeds, I'm just not sure where they're sourcing them. RV stuff maybe?

[Jump This]

I was thinking about installing some of the vents in the roof I've seen on some of the Jeepspeeds, I'm just not sure where they're sourcing them. RV stuff maybe?

You could probably get away with a steet car hood scoop also.

But don't dump the side exit idea without some thaught. It wouldn't need to exstend beyond the body panels and you could even recess it a bit....

Rick

[Goatman]

You could probably get away with a steet car hood scoop also.

But don't dump the side exit idea without some thaught. It wouldn't need to exstend beyond the body panels and you could even recess it a bit....

Rick

But it would have to go under the frame rail, which wouldn't work on the trail. I tried for one trip exiting right behind the muffler with a turned down pipe, but on the trail it kicked up so much dust that it was a real PIA.

[Jump This]

But it would have to go under the frame rail, which wouldn't work on the trail. I tried for one trip exiting right behind the muffler with a turned down pipe, but on the trail it kicked up so much dust that it was a real PIA.


This problem will go into my "Deep Thaught" file....someday I'll come up with a neat solution.

Rick

When was the last time you were in the dirt anyway? Rocks yes....dirt?
:D

[FordGuy]

I just finished building my Semi Jeep Speed/Trail Rig and decided to use the Currie Anti-Rock sway bar, Hopefully wont have that problem??

[Jump This]

This problem will go into my "Deep Thought" file....someday I'll come up with a neat solution.

Rick

When was the last time you were in the dirt anyway? Rocks yes....dirt?
:D

Another idea.
There is no reason not to cut a hole through the frame rails as long as you weld in a tube to regain the structural integrity of the rail. Look how your stock gas filler line goes through the rail. After this hole is cut and supported run the exhaust out that way.
I just might do that to my rig....

Rick

[Uglygreenxj]

Another idea.
There is no reason not to cut a hole through the frame rails as long as you weld in a tube to regain the structural integrity of the rail. Look how your stock gas filler line goes through the rail. After this hole is cut and supported run the exhaust out that way.
I just might do that to my rig....

Rick

It's funny you mentioned that, I had been giving that exact idea some serious thought also. Just like you said, the gas filler hose goes through like that, so why no the exhaust? If you move forward with this idea please be sure to post pics!

[TNT]

I was thinking about installing some of the vents in the roof I've seen on some of the Jeepspeeds, I'm just not sure where they're sourcing them. RV stuff maybe?

You could probably get away with a steet car hood scoop also.

But don't dump the side exit idea without some thought. It wouldn't need to extend beyond the body panels and you could even recess it a bit....

Rick


Check into rally cars. They use roof vents that can be opened and closed.

http://www.writerguy.com/primitive/img-body/alumroofvent.jpg

ALUMINUM RALLY ROOF VENT
Versatile vent has two modes of operation
This lightweight item attaches to the underside of your roof skin and allows fresh air to flow into the cockpit thru a 7" x 3' opening. The lid fits tight and sits a little proud of the roofline to minimize water entry while raining and to prevent seepage when sitting in the elements. Use with ROOF SCOOP (described above) for full effect. Opens forward and backward to stuff air into the cockpit (pressurizing cabin and reducing dust entry) or draw air out for a more gentle airflow on transits. Requires medium skill to install and the willingness to cut a hole in your roof.

With roof scoop
http://www.writerguy.com/primitive/img-body/comboventscoop.jpg

[Kevin3151]

But it would have to go under the frame rail, which wouldn't work on the trail. I tried for one trip exiting right behind the muffler with a turned down pipe, but on the trail it kicked up so much dust that it was a real PIA.


I found this out the hard way too. No one wants to spot me on the dusty trails now.

KH

[Goatman]

I just finished building my Semi Jeep Speed/Trail Rig and decided to use the Currie Anti-Rock sway bar, Hopefully wont have that problem??

I haven't heard anyone having problems with the Anti-Rock.......


So, how is your rig set up relative to pre-runnning?

[Uglygreenxj]

Just a couple of update pics. I got the front hydraulic bumpstops and limit straps finished. I didn't really take any in progress pics of the bumpstop install, as it was a real pain and I wasn't in the mood for picture taking in the moment. He,he!

Anyway.....

http://inlinethumb06.webshots.com/5637/2892278150049057516S425x425Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2892278150049057516bTYlqu)

http://inlinethumb62.webshots.com/4541/2253281570049057516S425x425Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2253281570049057516HorQkn)

Oh, and fiberglass fenders too. They are the Hanneman 6" bulge style and they require ALOT of trimming and patience to install.

http://inlinethumb14.webshots.com/973/2167963610049057516S425x425Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2167963610049057516SjhOCo)

http://inlinethumb52.webshots.com/6259/2786424160049057516S425x425Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2786424160049057516ZRdIYm)

Looks like I added in the fenders with windows paint!

[TNT]

Looks good/ :)

Are you using any frame stiffeners or trussing the front axle in the future?

[Uglygreenxj]

The axles are already trussed. If by frame stiffeners you mean the kind that run down the frame rail between the front and rear suspension mounting points then right at the moment no....My rocksliders were set up that way but I removed them and haven't decided if they're going back on. If not, then I'll fab up some frame stiffeners to replace them.

http://inlinethumb20.webshots.com/1107/2618876160049057516S425x425Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2618876160049057516LnckWH)

[TNT]

I couldn't see the truss, it looks good. I meant those frame stiffeners and the ones that run frome the LCA to the front bumper.

[Uglygreenxj]

I know I should probably plate the forward part of the frame but I tell myself that I'm not going to be racing, and this stupid snowball just keeps getting bigger and if I don't stop adding stuff before it's done, I'll never get to drive it ever again! I'm sure I'll end up doing it down the road. We'll see just how hard I end up pushing it.

[TNT]

I have a big snowball myself I need to finish. It will be fully plated.

[TNT]

BTW are those 5.5" RE coils? How are they without any swaybars?

[Uglygreenxj]

BTW are those 5.5" RE coils? How are they without any swaybars?

Yeah, they're the RE 5.5" coils. I ran the same coils before but with one coil cut off and it wasn't bad. But I finally got to take it out into the desert this last weekend a little bit and I'm thinking I might end up needing a sway bar. I'd like to run the Antirock but I'm not sure it will work with my limit strap mounts on the frame. I'll decide after it's done and I get to drive it more.

[TNT]

I'm thinking I want a stiffer coil like a Skyjacker or Deavers. I'm not a big fan of swaybars. An Antirock might work good for me but so should stiffer springs also IMO. Cheaper too.

I'm buying new springs in about a week or so. Still trying to decide which ones....

[Uglygreenxj]

I would have to agree that stiffer springs and no swaybar would be better, and yes, that antirock is pricey!!!!!!!

[Goatman]

I needed a sway bar with the 5.5" RE coils. When I did the Skyjacker coils with one coil cut off there's no need for a sway bar, I really like the coils I'm running now.

I know what you mean about wanting to get it running, but you will want to do some frame reinforcing as soon as you can. Many of us have learned the hard way, put off the stiffening and it's much harder do do later after things start to crack.

[Uglygreenxj]

I needed a sway bar with the 5.5" RE coils. When I did the Skyjacker coils with one coil cut off there's no need for a sway bar, I really like the coils I'm running now.

I know what you mean about wanting to get it running, but you will want to do some frame reinforcing as soon as you can. Many of us have learned the hard way, put off the stiffening and it's much harder do do later after things start to crack.

What size lift Skyjacker coils are you running with the one coil removed and how much lift are they yeilding do you think? And now your making me feel guilty for not plating the frame! :spin1:

[TNT]

What size lift Skyjacker coils are you running with the one coil removed and how much lift are they yeilding do you think? And now your making me feel guilty for not plating the frame! :spin1:


I believe he runs the 8" coils with 1 coil removed. My guess on lift is 6".

[Uglygreenxj]

I believe he runs the 8" coils with 1 coil removed. My guess on lift is 6".

I remember reading it in another thread but couldn't remember the details. What kind of terrain are you building for and how far along is your build?

[TNT]

I have the Skyjacker subframe setup, the steel cut for my front frame reinforcements. I'm trussing my axles right now, cutting fenders more, changing rear springs and running boomerang shackle because of the longer main leafs. I'm welding in new rockrails to replace my rockers and replacing some of the floor. The list goes on and on. I'm ordering T&T frame stiffeners and spring this week hopefully.

My build is for mainly for ride control and handling. It will see sometime blasting down fireroads and doing about the same amount of hardcore wheeling. Mainly trail runs with friends and the trip to Moab and Tellico that I have yet to experence. Other than that I will daily drive it like I stole it for the most part. I love playing in the snow also.

My back is shot so I don't want to get to wild with it at speed, but I will for short bursts. I won't be using a swaybar since it limits the suspensions ability to flex freely and tosses me from side to side instead of absorbing impacts.

If you read my sig I'm pretty trashed already and plan on still having some fun while I still can.

[TNT]

I contacted BDS today and found out the spring rates for thier XJ springs.

The 6.5", 4.5", and 3" springs are all rated at 240 lbs-per inch. They are supposed to be quality springs and have a great warranty.

So now there is a choice that is slighty stiffer that the Skyjackers and way cheaper then the Deavers.

Now I just need to pick one of them....

[Goatman]

What size lift Skyjacker coils are you running with the one coil removed and how much lift are they yeilding do you think? And now your making me feel guilty for not plating the frame! :spin1:

The best that I can determine I have 7.5" of lift, and the SJ coils are 8". My lower coil perches are raised on the axle 2", so that would mean the coils are providing 5.5" of lift. And, these coils are well broken in. :)

Hey, just run it, but don't wait very long to add reinforcment. The guys who add bracing up front seem to be having good luck keeping things together.

[Goatman]

I contacted BDS today and found out the spring rates for thier XJ springs.

The 6.5", 4.5", and 3" springs are all rated at 240 lbs-per inch. They are supposed to be quality springs and have a great warranty.

So now there is a choice that is slighty stiffer that the Skyjackers and way cheaper then the Deavers.

Now I just need to pick one of them....

What is the spring rate of the Skyjackers?

Looks like those BDS coils could be a good choice.

[TNT]

What is the spring rate of the Skyjackers?

Looks like those BDS coils could be a good choice.


6" are 230# and 8" are 235#

[Uglygreenxj]

I just finished installing a Currie Anti-rock and thought I'd post up some pics. My upper limit strap mounts on the frame would have interfered with the anti-rocks arms so I had an offset bent into them so they would clear. I also trimmed off the last two holes on the arms. I started with their 35.75" wide universal kit with 17" long steel arms. I've got the links on the stiffest setting and it made a night and day difference.

http://inlinethumb20.webshots.com/11923/2517258900049057516S425x425Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2517258900049057516WkIhxz)

http://inlinethumb12.webshots.com/12043/2027557230049057516S425x425Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2027557230049057516loEtpb)

http://inlinethumb02.webshots.com/9025/2136867980049057516S425x425Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2136867980049057516RKuiKk)

Also installed Currie steering. Everything is nice and tight now. Just have to get the front end aligned.

[XJEEPER]

Been thinking this about adding this swaybar setup for a while. If I'm reading correctly, you could have just run a 15" arm and not had to chop anything off and have ample clearance between the arm and coil?

Thanks for sharing the pics.

[Uglygreenxj]

Been thinking this about adding this swaybar setup for a while. If I'm reading correctly, you could have just run a 15" arm and not had to chop anything off and have ample clearance between the arm and coil?

Thanks for sharing the pics.

The shortest arms they offered on the website were 17" long so thats what I got. I ended up using the stiffest setting anyway so the arms are still longer than necessary.

[woody]

Just laid eyes on these jewels:

http://store.jksmfg.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=ACOSPRO&Store_Code=JKS01&Category_Code=Coil_Spring

Discuss?

[tcm glx]

Just laid eyes on these jewels:

http://store.jksmfg.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=ACOSPRO&Store_Code=JKS01&Category_Code=Coil_Spring

Discuss?
I just picked up my set. Will install on monday and a full review after.

[woody]

I'd like to be in on that test ride... :cheers:

[tcm glx]

I'd like to be in on that test ride... :cheers:
Well mars is a little far away for a test ride.

[woody]

Indeed it is... And my spaceship is fully on the fritz, waiting on parts from Acme Mfg.

Are you running in class 17 or is your rig just for grins??

[tcm glx]

Indeed it is... And my spaceship is fully on the fritz, waiting on parts from Acme Mfg.

Are you running in class 17 or is your rig just for grins??
I provide chase support for a class 17.

[Goatman]

Just laid eyes on these jewels:

http://store.jksmfg.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=ACOSPRO&Store_Code=JKS01&Category_Code=Coil_Spring

Discuss?

Hadn't seen those before..........nice offering!

That is a sweet product, and the price seems reasonable for what you're getting.

[woody]

Good deal... sounds like fun! (plus not limited to 17 rulebook)

Please report back on those bumps!!!

Edit... I agree with Goatman. $900 might sound kinda steep, but the kit offers up a great range of tunability.

[tcm glx]

Will do. Early next week

[Ronbo]

I agree with Goatman. $900 might sound kinda steep, but the kit offers up a great range of tunability.


http://www.redrock4x4.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&manufacturers_id=42&products_id=2454

$765 plus free shipping....even better....

[tcm glx]

http://www.redrock4x4.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&manufacturers_id=42&products_id=2454

$765 plus free shipping....even better....
Thats where i got them, order on Thursday, recieved on Tuesday. Super quick!

[Stumpalump]

Had an idea last night while cutting and fitting some Deaver springs. If I cut the bottom of the top coil tower above the bumpstop mounting plate can I slip a air bump into that tube like the Acos pro? Also I notice that some of the air bumps have large threads on top. I wonder if those threads would match a standard Acos top. Just an idea I was starting to toss around. But this is my real question before I go further:
I like low lift and 35" tires so I rely on my bumpstops for an axel pivot point when crawling. Think of a ramp test. If I'm flexed out and on the air bumps will they hold or start to compress? Do you think they could be pumped up to a point that they could be used as a axel pivot when crawling but still have enough give on a hard hit and basically take advantage of them for duel use? Maybe I would loose the benifits of an air bump and be just as well with a regular bumpstop.This is the stuff I looked at. http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/home.php?cat=54

[TNT]

Like this?

skullver's very humble jeepspeed build link (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=581250)

Under hood view

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a230/skullver/IMG_0479.jpg

Mounts without bumpstops

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a230/skullver/IMG_0101.jpg

Test fitting assembled view

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a230/skullver/DSCN1057.jpg

Assembled view

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a230/skullver/IMG_0297.jpg

What the rear should look like

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a230/skullver/IMG_0570.jpg

[Uglygreenxj]

Had an idea last night while cutting and fitting some Deaver springs. If I cut the bottom of the top coil tower above the bumpstop mounting plate can I slip a air bump into that tube like the Acos pro? Also I notice that some of the air bumps have large threads on top. I wonder if those threads would match a standard Acos top. Just an idea I was starting to toss around. But this is my real question before I go further:
I like low lift and 35" tires so I rely on my bumpstops for an axel pivot point when crawling. Think of a ramp test. If I'm flexed out and on the air bumps will they hold or start to compress? Do you think they could be pumped up to a point that they could be used as a axel pivot when crawling but still have enough give on a hard hit and basically take advantage of them for duel use? Maybe I would loose the benifits of an air bump and be just as well with a regular bumpstop.This is the stuff I looked at. http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/home.php?cat=54

The stock bumpstop tube isn't big enough for a hydro. bump to fit inside of. I don't think that the stock tubes could handle the loads that these bumps would place on them. Unfortunately the hydro. bumps won't fit inside of the regular ACOS units either. I had to ditch my ACOS when I installed the bumps. As far as pivoting the axle on the bump, I think it's fine. I run 200psi in mine and when crawling, they will still compress. For me they limit the uptravel in the front to a point forcing the rear to work, and then compress the rest of the way. It really balanced out the front to rear articulation. The highspeed benefits are obvious.

[Stumpalump]

The stock bumpstop tube isn't big enough for a hydro. bump to fit inside of. I don't think that the stock tubes could handle the loads that these bumps would place on them. Unfortunately the hydro. bumps won't fit inside of the regular ACOS units either. I had to ditch my ACOS when I installed the bumps. As far as pivoting the axle on the bump, I think it's fine. I run 200psi in mine and when crawling, they will still compress. For me they limit the uptravel in the front to a point forcing the rear to work, and then compress the rest of the way. It really balanced out the front to rear articulation. The highspeed benefits are obvious. For crawling and stuffing a wheel I set my bumpstops so the tires won't hit if turned. For a high speed straight on hit they could go a bit higher without hitting so a stiff hydro bump may be nice. I need to study up on this and see if the ACOS is a better bang for the buck than the ones you have to fab in. It sure would be nice to be able to hammer down on the jeep when you want to and crawl when you need to. Is that 200 psi of air or nitrogen and how high can you go? Are they progressive? If so when do they start getting firm enough to not compress anymore when crawling?

[Uglygreenxj]

For crawling and stuffing a wheel I set my bumpstops so the tires won't hit if turned. For a high speed straight on hit they could go a bit higher without hitting so a stiff hydro bump may be nice. I need to study up on this and see if the ACOS is a better bang for the buck than the ones you have to fab in. It sure would be nice to be able to hammer down on the jeep when you want to and crawl when you need to. Is that 200 psi of air or nitrogen and how high can you go? Are they progressive? If so when do they start getting firm enough to not compress anymore when crawling?

It's 200psi of Nitrogen. I'm not sure how high you can go with them though. They come already charged to 200psi. For ease of install, you can't beat the ACOS units, but my Junk sees alot of airtime and I like the peace of mind of having my bump cans tied into the cage.

[Roxtar]

My concern for those ACOS hydros is in protecting them.
A big problem with lifted Jeeps is having the spring bow.
The stock bumpstops hit the inside of the springs and you end up with a compromise. Setting up the stops to bottom at a right angle forces you to accept some spring rub on the way down. Avoiding the spring rub leads to a funky angle when they bottom.
Obviously neither of these scenarios are acceptable with $900 hydro bumpstops.
Longarm four or three link setups help but don't get rid of this completely.

[Stumpalump]

My concern for those ACOS hydros is in protecting them.
A big problem with lifted Jeeps is having the spring bow.
The stock bumpstops hit the inside of the springs and you end up with a compromise. Setting up the stops to bottom at a right angle forces you to accept some spring rub on the way down. Avoiding the spring rub leads to a funky angle when they bottom.
Obviously neither of these scenarios are acceptable with $900 hydro bumpstops.
Longarm four or three link setups help but don't get rid of this completely.
Darn good point! By the time you adjust the ACOS bumpstop down far enough to even take advantage of the bump travel it will sit way lower than a stock ACOS. Heck that low and like you sais all the rubbing and angle problems you could end up running the bottom of the hydro bum right thru or against a coil wrap. At least with the weld in type you could raise them up then build up the lower coil bucket for height. I wonder what the minimum lenght is for a ACOS pro vs a standard ACOS? Just called them and heres what I got. It's a 2" hydro bump that is made by radflow. Minimum extended lenght will put you at exacly 2" longer than a standard ACOS. The treaded tube and diameter is the same for both but to install the pro you cut off the factory tower and bolt the top thru the body. Since the top of the standard ACOS is threaded for the ACOS tube you could drill and mount it the same way and find a radflow 2" bumpstop that will slide into the tube and..........no more time to play right now but gives some ideas to toss around.

[tjmwr7]

Darn good point! By the time you adjust the ACOS bumpstop down far enough to even take advantage of the bump travel it will sit way lower than a stock ACOS. Heck that low and like you sais all the rubbing and angle problems you could end up running the bottom of the hydro bum right thru or against a coil wrap. At least with the weld in type you could raise them up then build up the lower coil bucket for height. I wonder what the minimum lenght is for a ACOS pro vs a standard ACOS? Just called them and heres what I got. It's a 2" hydro bump that is made by radflow. Minimum extended lenght will put you at exacly 2" longer than a standard ACOS. The treaded tube and diameter is the same for both but to install the pro you cut off the factory tower and bolt the top thru the body. Since the top of the standard ACOS is threaded for the ACOS tube you could drill and mount it the same way and find a radflow 2" bumpstop that will slide into the tube and..........no more time to play right now but gives some ideas to toss around. Ok its time to play again.... Please resume the converstion please. My question is...It sounds like the acos norm is a great product and everyone should have one right? Ok then if this Pro Bump sounds like its worthless why did they make it? I think its a great design and i want to see it in action. there has to be someone out there that has a set??????:rattle:

[Jes]

Though I'm not sure how'd it work with ACOS or similar I moved my bumpstop tower to stop the coil rubbing by cutting half way through it, bending it back, and then welding it back together.
http://www.fototime.com/194C6C1F9435E51/standard.jpg
Very easy to do and you can dial in the proper angle for it.

[WheelinJR]

I just finished installing a Currie Anti-rock and thought I'd post up some pics. My upper limit strap mounts on the frame would have interfered with the anti-rocks arms so I had an offset bent into them so they would clear. I also trimmed off the last two holes on the arms. I started with their 35.75" wide universal kit with 17" long steel arms. I've got the links on the stiffest setting and it made a night and day difference.

Also installed Currie steering. Everything is nice and tight now. Just have to get the front end aligned.

Can you tell me dimensions on the tube for building the mount. I can figure out the ID from the delrin bushings, but what was the OD/Length you used ??

[Skullver]

Can you tell me dimensions on the tube for building the mount. I can figure out the ID from the delrin bushings, but what was the OD/Length you used ??
the universal kit comes with the tube for mounting, if you got a deal on just the torsion rod and links and are missing the tube for whatever reason I can measure it for you, it is .120" wall so you should be able to get the OD from that.
Chris

[WheelinJR]

the universal kit comes with the tube for mounting, if you got a deal on just the torsion rod and links and are missing the tube for whatever reason I can measure it for you, it is .120" wall so you should be able to get the OD from that.
Chris
I have the TJ kit, which is basically the universal 35.75" kit without the tube. I plan on building my own, just wasn't sure on the length mostly.

Oh and yeah, I can definitely get the OD from that. I kinda figured .120" would be standard.

I'm starting to realize the bushing sizing gets weird there, 2.562" ID is gonna be a hard one to get a normal OD from. Do you think the hard Delrin is a must, or would a poly work. I have a silly selection of poly in the shop, so that's another option. Otherwise I suppose I could get the Currie Universal bushing too.

[Skullver]

I have the TJ kit, which is basically the universal 35.75" kit without the tube. I plan on building my own, just wasn't sure on the length mostly.

Oh and yeah, I can definitely get the OD from that. I kinda figured .120" would be standard.

I'm starting to realize the bushing sizing gets weird there, 2.562" ID is gonna be a hard one to get a normal OD from. Do you think the hard Delrin is a must, or would a poly work. I have a silly selection of poly in the shop, so that's another option. Otherwise I suppose I could get the Currie Universal bushing too.
mine is all installed so it is hard to get a good measurement but the tube is 1.75" OD and around 33.75" long, Hope that helps, your bushings seem to be bigger than mine for some reason if you are getting a 2.562" ID. You definitely need the harder stuff as there will quite a bit of slop using softer material, I don't think they would last long at all.
good luck
Chris

[WheelinJR]

mine is all installed so it is hard to get a good measurement but the tube is 1.75" OD and around 33.75" long, Hope that helps, your bushings seem to be bigger than mine for some reason if you are getting a 2.562" ID.
Chris

Yeah the TJ kit has the bushings to fit in the factory tube that is already in the frame, with the goofy flat sides. I bought the TJ kit because the price jump for the universal kit was pretty big, as I was able to score a pretty good deal on the TJ version.

The delrin bushings are significantly harder than poly, so if that is crucial I will stay away from the poly stuff. I suppose I can probably also get Currie to send me some of the universal delrin's

[Stumpalump]

I wound up using harbor freight rubber mallet heads for lower bumpstop extensions. I was able to cut them on an angle so they hit the upper ACOS bumpstop just right. I cut the head off of a lag bolt and welded the threaded part onto the lower bumpstop plate and screwed the mallet heads right on. Sounds chezzy but it's been working great! We did a snow run this weekend and I could not see some of the bumps untill it was too late. I could hardly feel the front bottom out and they are holding up fine. I use 1 hockey puck on an extended spring plate on the rear and I could feel it thump out hard so I'm going to cut up another ruber mallet for replacements and may add shock mounted bumpstops to the rear shocks. Any body ever fool with these shock mounted bumpstops to add a little progression to your regular bumpstop?
http://www.stylintrucks.com/parts.aspx?attribute_value_string%7CBrand=Daystar&selected_prod_ids=1949

[Goatman]

I may add shock mounted bumpstops to the rear shocks. Any body ever fool with these shock mounted bumpstops to add a little progression to your regular bumpstop?
http://www.stylintrucks.com/parts.aspx?attribute_value_string%7CBrand=Daystar&selected_prod_ids=1949

I don't have those yet, but want them for the XJ. I think it's a great idea, especially since they made them so they can be installed on virtually any shock.

I have shaft bumps on all four coilovers on the buggy and they work well, with no other bumpstops.

[Stumpalump]

Don't buy the red ones! I stoped in a Desert Rat store in Albuqurque yesterday and they had the red ones in stock. About as stiff a seat foam. You need to buy one of two different installation tools depending on your shock or they rip when you put them on. It's basically a cone that slips over the shock that you grease up.

[WheelinJR]

Just got my anti-rock on last night, drives nice with it on there. Definitely think I'm gonna be happy with it.

[Russ Pottenger]

Don't buy the red ones! I stoped in a Desert Rat store in Albuqurque yesterday and they had the red ones in stock. About as stiff a seat foam. You need to buy one of two different installation tools depending on your shock or they rip when you put them on. It's basically a cone that slips over the shock that you grease up.
Thanks for the info.
About to order some. I'll get the black ones.

[WheelinJR]

Anti-rock installed. The offset bend and moving it way back let me keep all the holes, but the downside to it is I rub when turning...

I am going to run wheelspacers to clear that up.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/travisroy/antirock-exhaust/goat036.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/travisroy/antirock-exhaust/goat035.jpg

[JNickel101]

Back from the dead....:D

Who here is running Deaver coils and/or leafs?

[tcm glx]

I have deaver coils in the front and I love them!!
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q207/tcmglx/Cleghorn%204-19-08/CIMG4675.jpg

[Blazair]

Who here is running Deaver coils and/or leafs?
me

[JNickel101]

Sweet - you running 4" or 5.5" coils? 4" rear leafs? Happen to know what their spring rate is? I emailed them and they said their standard ones are 180#/in...i thought that seemed kinda soft. I was thinking they were more like 220....

I want to build something that is good for pre-running, but is also rock-crawl capable. I want a decent balance - not too soft for pre-running, but not too stiff for rock crawling. Do I have that idea right?

[cds36]

Back from the dead....:D

Who here is running Deaver coils and/or leafs?

Im running them X2 on lovng them. I was told by deaver they are 280-300 springs

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2324/2430018942_4f1e57c8f5.jpg?v=0

[slcpunk74]

best place to buy deaver stuff?

[djblade311]

deaver direct. www.deaverspring.com

[slcpunk74]

Anybody know af a good leaf pack for doing some fast stuff but still driving on the street and maybe a little light towing(3 place motorcycle trailer) I am just trying to stay away from the spendy deaver pack...?

[JNickel101]

what the.....?

[djblade311]

Anybody know af a good leaf pack for doing some fast stuff but still driving on the street and maybe a little light towing(3 place motorcycle trailer) I am just trying to stay away from the spendy deaver pack...?

what lift?

ford ranger leafs, rustys, RE, DPG

[slcpunk74]

I went with re 4.5" so hopefully I like it... If I dont they go on my other xj(the slower one :)

I am looking for shocks now. I wanna do a 10" resi shock up front and I might someday race a little js so I need to be legal. I js cannot decide on what to get. What is good for the money with a resi and a 2.5" body??

[tcm glx]

Try FOA.......Craig, "CDS36" on here has them....

[Goatman]

hopefully a mod can clear all this jumble up because it could be useful to somebody proir to all of this eflexing.



So, from where would you guys like to see it cleaned up? I can clean it up, but I have no desire to step on anyone's toes. This thread has been off topic for quite some time, but there is some pretty good info here for folks that are looking for it.

BTW, I think that truck is bad ass, I love seeing a built Comanche.


I started this thread way back when trying to deal with go fast pre-running type stuff for our XJ's. Now, I could start another thread about real go fast racing stuff for the buggy. :)

[Weasel]

So, from where would you guys like to see it cleaned up? I can clean it up, but I have no desire to step on anyone's toes. This thread has been off topic for quite some time, but there is some pretty good info here for folks that are looking for it.

BTW, I think that truck is bad ass, I love seeing a built Comanche.


I started this thread way back when trying to deal with go fast pre-running type stuff for our XJ's. Now, I could start another thread about real go fast racing stuff for the buggy. :)
Whatever you feel like. It won't hurt my feelings any.

[Goatman]

OK, back to our regularly scheduled program. BTW, I reposted the pics of that truck in it's own thread if you guys would like to start over. :cheers:

[slcpunk74]

what shock mounts up front do you guys use? What about lower trac bar brackets? Pics..?

[slcpunk74]

I treid to look up the t and j shock mounts but the site was under construction(like 80% of Utah).I tried to call them but the number did not work.

I was looking at the jks bar pin adaptors and they look ok but the price is a little steep.
I was thinking I could just run the lower bar pin adaptors the way they are and get the top ones tied into the cage somhow or just brace them with some 3/16 plate inside the engine compart. I dont know what do you guys run?

[XJEEPER]

Lower
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w52/XJEEPER1/XJ%20Build%20III/000_0558.jpg

Upper
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w52/XJEEPER1/XJ%20Build%20III/000_0437.jpg

The T&J uppers mounts are easy enough to fab, just time. I may go this route in the future, but for now these work for me.

[slcpunk74]

I was thinking of just making the uppers but they had a tapered bushing and I didnt know if this was crucial to the life of a racing style shocks mounting joint. If it is not needed then I will make them.

[XJEEPER]

I was thinking of just making the uppers but they had a tapered bushing and I didnt know if this was crucial to the life of a racing style shocks mounting joint. If it is not needed then I will make them.


Like this?
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/eccStoreFront/product_images/2005/91721000_2_L.JPG (http://javascript<b></b>:history.go(-1);)
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/eccStoreFront/product_images/2005/91721000_L.jpg (http://javascript<b></b>:history.go(-1);)

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/eccStoreFront/product_images/2005/91721000_3_L.JPG (http://javascript<b></b>:history.go(-1);)
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/pl/104,3530_Weld-On-Shock-Mount-With-Spacer.html?alt=1&path=2005&img=91721000_3_L.JPG

You can buy the sleeves to work with tapered bushings and weld them to your own mounts, fwiw.

[slcpunk74]

no they are slanted. I assume to put all the mount on the rotation assy of the shock eye mount. I dont know if this is a big thing or not.
http://www.redrock4x4.com/shop/images/jks/p_9606.jpg (http://javascript<b></b>:window.close())

[XJEEPER]

Everyone that I've talked to who went with these JKS BPE mounts say they're not worth the hassle....or cost.
Here's how JKS addresses the uppers for a tapered race style shock.
http://www.knowwhere2jeep.com/catalog/images/JKS9605B.jpg

[slcpunk74]

I just dont know if the tapered bushing deal is needed with a racing shock. can I just make my own mounts like yours and run them without bushings with a hiem joint shock mount?

[XJEEPER]

I just dont know if the tapered bushing deal is needed with a racing shock. can I just make my own mounts like yours and run them without bushings with a hiem joint shock mount?

Don't know why not.......just get some tapered spacers to allow shock bushing movement and you're set. Call Von at Ben Hanks Racing in SLC, they may stock these.

[Gravesdiggerxj]

I just dont know if the tapered bushing deal is needed with a racing shock. can I just make my own mounts like yours and run them without bushings with a hiem joint shock mount?


Chad make your own lowers and get some misalignment spacers (tapered bushings) from any shop in town. (Rocklogic, Teraflex, Ben Hanks Racing, I'm sure speedway racing has them too)

[slcpunk74]

Im gonna make my uppers and lowers so I need to just find those tapered bushing deals.

[slcpunk74]

happy B day strat sorry I could not attend.

[Skullver]

Im gonna make my uppers and lowers so I need to just find those tapered bushing deals.
most any "race" shock will already come with the misalignment spacers for the rod ends that allow them to articulate plenty without also adding tapered weld washers on the shock mount itself. But if you do feel you need to do that style then you can find them at aa manufacturing, camburg, mckenzies, kartek etc. I measured the rod end mounting width in the shock, took the spacers out and shimmed with washers until they were slightly overwide for weld shrinkage, bolted the two shock mount plates together and welded them up. I used the T&Js mounts on top to save time.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a230/skullver/swayaway%20%20bypass%20shocks/IMG_1072.jpg
here is a pic of my rear lower mounts with the spacers from the shock in place shimmed up with washers and a .100" thick tab, one extra washer for weld shrinkage and the shocks fit nice and snug as they should.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a230/skullver/IMG_0980.jpg
good luck

[GrimmJeeper]

looking good chris! i'd like to see the engine bay side of your shock mounts if you have a pic... did you cut into the engine bay at all or just plate the inner fenderwell from underneath? is that thin steel sturdy enough to take the force of the shocks pushing against it?

[Goatman]

I made my own lower shock mounts, similar to what XJeeper did, and I use the JKS upper mount. I needed to move my lower mounts out some to help the shock clear the frame when fully articulated.

[Mosephus]

Old thread I know, but I figured My question could be answered here.

Is the anything wrong with mounting a reservoir shock's reservoir upside down(shrader valve pointed up) to the shock body?

Just wondering if it could operate properly that way. The shocks I just got bought hose is really too long to mount it the correct way.

[crazyjim]

Old thread I know, but I figured My question could be answered here.

Is the anything wrong with mounting a reservoir shock's reservoir upside down(shrader valve pointed up) to the shock body?

Just wondering if it could operate properly that way. The shocks I just got bought hose is really too long to mount it the correct way.
Absolutely not, that's fine, but damn how long is that hose? Seems like it would have to be a good 2 feet to allow it to mount like that. What kind of shocks?

[Mosephus]

LONG


http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p193/M715/Misc%20Projects/IMG_4727.jpg Here is a pic of them forced into the upright position but there is alot of stress on the SS hose. I can turn the resi upside down and it will be in a much more relaxed position. http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p193/M715/Misc%20Projects/148_2352.jpg

[crazyjim]

Ehhhh looking at it though, it doesn't look like it'll be any less stressed when it's flipped. It looks like it'll put a lot of un-needed stress on the outlets.

[Mosephus]

Thanks for the advice.

[TNT]

A friend of mine did this.

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg191/JeepcoMJ/War%20Machine%20engine%20upgrade/edelbrock%20shocks/IM009593.jpg

I would have mounted them slightly higher so the hose has more clearance.