Iraq.....Ugh.

[GI-John]

I hate to say this but I think that Saddam Hussein was right the way he treated his people. I feel that an Iron fist and ZERO tolerance for revolt should be the norm in Iraq.


With just a shred of freedom, the Iraqis are revolting and destroying the lives of many of my brothers in arms. Yet we're there to help and rebuild.

Reminds me of Vietnam.



If they don't want to listen/change/abide by the law....pull out all of our troops, and turn that god-forsaken place to Glass.


Rant off.

[RNMedic]

Amen

[CRASH]

We spent along time in Germany and Japan after 1946 to get their minds right.

We'll be there a while.

I feel for our boys, though.

CRASH

[karstic]

Yeah but we didn't have 20 different religious and political factions in Germany trying to fawk things up.Every little pissant Muslim cleric overthere thinks he should be running the country and everyone else should be 6 ft. under.

We spent along time in Germany and Japan after 1946 to get their minds right.

[Matt S.]

THEY DO NOT want to listen/change/abide by the law....LETS pull out all of our troops, and turn that ALREADY god-forsaken place to Glass.




Here let me fix that for you!


Oh and amen!

matt

[seanR]

the Iraqis are revolting and destroying the lives of many of my brothers in arms. Yet we're there to help and rebuild.
Reminds me of Vietnam.
If they don't want to listen/change/abide by the law....pull out all of our troops, and turn that god-forsaken place to Glass.


I agree John. Our prayers are with them.

[Glenn B]

Yeah but we didn't have 20 different religious and political factions in Germany trying to fawk things up.Every little pissant Muslim cleric overthere thinks he should be running the country and everyone else should be 6 ft. under.
Really? I certainly remember many different Factions after us. Granted, I only spent about 1/3rd of my life in Germany.... but it was not all Bratwurst, Beer, and Buxom Women. It was not all safe. But not much talk goes on about the Cold War. Some people will always think it was all fun..... too much press I guess,

Gi_John, yeah, I feel for the folks *in country* at the moment. Wish them all the best.

Glenn

[biscuitboy87]

i agree. my buddy suggested we start a new course by planting moles (or people who are willing to live there for 20yrs) and let the clerics fight it out themselves...just when things return to saddam style (or however the clerics want things) the mole come out of hiding and give them a taste of the terrorism they are issueing upon us. sounds simplistic, but flying a commercial airplane into bin ladens parents house would send a nifty messege...no?

[YELLAHEEP]

I'll see that Amen and raise y'all another Amen!

:us:

[Eagle]

Yeah but we didn't have 20 different religious and political factions in Germany trying to fawk things up.Every little pissant Muslim cleric overthere thinks he should be running the country and everyone else should be 6 ft. under.

You just put your (keyboard) finger(s) on the crux of the problem. If the clerics weren't so busy telling the people that westerners are Satan and that they'll go straight to heaven if they kill "infidels," we wouldn't have a tenth of the problems we're facing. What they need to do (but there are probably ten thousand reasons they can't do it) is round up ALL the clerics, incarcerate them all, and import Muslim chaplains to explain the Koran to the Iraqi people in straight talk, not anti-western pseudo-religious propaganda.

If we're lucky, maybe the Sunni and Shiite clerics will wipe each other out while they're incarcerated, saving the world to cost of feeding and then executing them.

Yes, I know I'm a minister, but I become very upset at those who pervert the teachings of their own religion (or any other religion) for political purposes.

[Rev Den]

Yes, I know I'm a minister, but I become very upset at those who pervert the teachings of their own religion (or any other religion) for political purposes.

1 Amen to Eagle.
1 Amen to John
A millon prayer to our troops.


Rev

[ILLXJ]

I feel the same way. JIM.

[karstic]

Really? I certainly remember many different Factions after us. Granted, I only spent about 1/3rd of my life in Germany.... but it was not all Bratwurst, Beer, and Buxom Women. It was not all safe. But not much talk goes on about the Cold War. Some people will always think it was all fun..... too much press I guess,
Glenn

Glenn if you were over there guarding the line during the Cold War I thank you and the relatives I have in Germany thank you. I think you may have missed my point.

[Rufies97XJ]

If they don't want to listen/change/abide by the law....pull out all of our troops, and turn that god-forsaken place to Glass.


Rant off.

They should have done that in the first... "well.. we don't wanna waste time looking for him, let's just blow the whole dame country up!!"
Sorry... not in the military.. but i don't like whats going on right now...

[RTicUL8]

...they'll go straight to heaven if they kill "infidels,"...

You forgot to mention the dozens of virgins part... :D

[Eagle]

You forgot to mention the dozens of virgins part... :D

True :twak:

Guess I'll have to brush up on the Qu'ran

[Ghost]

i'm no mininster and definately not a religous person but, last time I checked all the religions teach suicide is a one way ticket to Hell! As for the troops, I think and pray for them daily. Jeepndmudd is there and keeps them all on my mind and prayer list.

[8Mud]

Knew we were gonna have trouble when the Iraqui army just kind of stopped and walked away. You don´t win a war, by winning a battle, you do it by breaking there will to fight.
I´ve read Mao´s little Red book, Uncle Ho´s phamplets, What the Iraquis are doing, is right out of the book.
The Easter offensive they have going now, is probably patterned after the Tet offensive.
Tanks in the streets, snipers to shoot anybody, openly carrying a weapon, that´s not in uniform. A massive retaliation for any, offensive action by the inssurgents.
Radical surgery is often more humain in the long run, than various theropies and dancing around the problem.
Think throwing away lives in dribs and drabs, having the soldiers driving around in thin skinned vehicles, winning there minda and hearts, isn´t gonna work.
Like the man said, grab them by the testicals and there minds and hearts will follow right along.
Heard Al Jazzera today screaming about the poor Iraqui civilians, the Iraquis have killed more of there own civilians than we have. Besides for an insurgency to exist a major portion of the population has to provide support or they need outsaide assistance.
Get serious or get out.

[Goonowsky]

Bush is such a piece of crap!!!! He took one of my best friends to Iraq. If he wants to get revenge for his daddy, he should go do it himself, the asshole.

[Glenn B]

Bush is such a piece of crap!!!! He took one of my best friends to Iraq. If he wants to get revenge for his daddy, he should go do it himself, the asshole.
Wow, such an intelligent argument. NOT.

Your President did not take your friend away. Your friend did it on his own. If you think President Bush took your friend away, I would venture to guess you are pretty young?

BTW, your language is odd for a new person here. See what NAXJA is about before you go spouting off.

[8Mud]

Don´t think it was revenge, think it was unfinished business, world opinion made them stop before they got the job finished the first time. It´s rarley just one objective anyway, we now have troops on two borders with Iran, another case of unfinsihed business.
The only real solution, is energy independance from the middle east. But even then, a bunch of religious fanatics, not even a generation removed from goat herders, with way to much authority and atomic weapons scares the heck out of me. Worse than Russia did in the cold war.

[8Mud]

Most of Europe wants to play Ostrich with there head burried in the earth, or the three monkeys, see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. The fundimentalist and extremest movements are gaining momentum in Europe. The top Cop in Germany was on the other day and said the biggest threat to Germany since WW II is Muslim fundamenatalism. Things could get really crazy.

[Fergie]

Bush is such a piece of crap!!!! He took one of my best friends to Iraq. If he wants to get revenge for his daddy, he should go do it himself, the asshole.
Boy is the first part of your moniker fitting...Goon is right.

Part of the oath your buddy took included a line about "without any reservations." If he thought that his service was gonna be sitting around in the motor pool, then he was wrong, and shouldnt have joined. Those are the type that you cant count on when it comes down to it.

And as was said before, if you think our President "took" your friend, you are dead wrong their too, and your statement shows how naive and clueless you are.

Fergie

[GI-John]

All servicemembers take this oath:

I (state your name) do solemly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against ALL enemies foreign and domestic, and that I will bear TRUE faith and allegiance to the same. And that I will OBEY the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, in accordance with regualtions and the Uniform Code of Military Justice, so help me. (god optional)


If your buddy was smart enough to join, he is smart enough to figure out what he was getting into.

If he is gone, I am truly sorry, I have lost several friends and colleagues myself.

If he is alive, say your prayers for him and his family.

John

[woody]

All servicemembers take this oath:

I (state your name) do solemly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against ALL enemies foreign and domestic, and that I will bear TRUE faith and allegiance to the same. And that I will OBEY the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, in accordance with regualtions and the Uniform Code of Military Justice, so help me. (god optional)


If your buddy was smart enough to join, he is smart enough to figure out what he was getting into.

If he is gone, I am truly sorry, I have lost several friends and colleagues myself.

If he is alive, say your prayers for him and his family.

John

Well said John.

[seanR]

Bush is such a piece of crap!!!! He took one of my best friends to Iraq. If he wants to get revenge for his daddy, he should go do it himself, the asshole.


American policy has always been to fight wars on foriegn soil not here at home. I am glad we invaded Iraq. Quit listening to the nightly news and turn on something that is unbiased and you will see that the majority of the people in Iraq welcome U.S. and our liberation!

[ColoCherokees]

I agree that the situation is frustrating - often my first thought when seeing the "insurgents" on the news (true description is criminal/terrorist/thug, but who expects Dan Rather to get anything right?) is to nuke em all.

But - they had Father Saddam for 20 some years. They didn't have to think about what laws they wanted, what direction they wanted their country to take, no political opponents to debate and disagree with. Basically, their political minds were starved and became, for lack of a better word, retarded. And they are now behaving in a retarded manner. I'm sure any parent here has gotten exasperated with their 3 year old, but you didn't kill the kid, you sucked it up, and did what you needed do to do educate the ignorant child.

Right now, Iraq is a retarded country and has to relearn (everything I've heard said pre-Saddam Iraq was quite the modern/sophisticated nation) how to think, govern, behave, etc. Think of the Marines, Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen as the biggest f@#$ing spanking possible, it will just take time for the Iraqis to wake up and start thinking again. Those that don't - well, they're dead or soon to be dead.

Of course, if we're still having this discussion ten years from now - nuke em till they glow, then shoot em in the dark, every last one.

[Woodstock]

Hello,

I don't want to teach you or anything else. I just want to bring in some arguments to discuss on:

1) See that they have an other confession. And they don't like the western very much. But they didn't do anything bad on people who are not involved to the iraq war. Bomb attacks were in England, Spain, Turky, (just Poland missing by now). Maybe they only want to get out of their country ???? Just think if muslims come to the US to free you from capitalism??? What would you want to do??

2) We are not sticking the head to sand. Maybe we are not as progressicve in europe as you are, but in some cases it was good to have some to conciliate between. So we are also not hating muslims - we try to understand them. So they have no argument to fight against us. We let them their religion, they let us ours.

3) The argument that the US troops in germany helped to secure the borders to the east: In Austria we have not a good army! Not much money, no good weapons (beside our StG 77). Ther were no other troops, and we had no problems with our borders. So why do you think was that??

That's just some arguments to think of. I think tolerance to each other is the best way to fight terrorism in the world. The other case is only eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth ...

greetings from austria Rainer

[8Mud]

Some guy running around the streets with an AK is just to dangerous to let live. There spray and pray technique of fire, is probably gonna kill grandma and the kids, before it does much damage to the so called enemy.
Most of the soldiers over there didn´t ask to go, measured responce is probably gonna get more of them killed than necessary.
You can´t really start educating anybody until you get there attention. Like the old joke, about the baseball bat and the mule, Do you use the baseball bat to train him, no just to get his attention. If you got a big stick use it, quick and as painlessly as possible.
Kissinger used to be big on plans, schemes and the big picture, got a lot of people killed needlessly. His chess game just didn´t work, when the other guy wasn´t playing by the rules.
The pacification program in Irag, has the same smell of one of Kissingers grand schemes. If the long term objectives or theories get one more person killed than necessary, they are flawed, from the get go, and unfair to the American soldiers fighting and dieing over there.
If they figure, bombing isn´t getting the job done, try a battalion of tanks. 50 some tanks rumbling through town, will bring the shock and awe technique down to ground level. If a battalion doesn´t get there attention, use a division.
Had an active political insurgency in Germany at one time, whole villiages were going red, near the east german border. Rolled through with a battalion of tanks a couple of times a year, just to get there attention. Newspapers used to call it manuver, we called it training the mule.

[Boatwrench]

Probably going to regret entering this fray but.........

Last year I was not sure that invading Iraq was a good idea...the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi not Iraqi....however...once the show was on the road, once we were committed last March 20th my attitude was damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead. I knew many folks there as my former reserve unit was engaged the first day.

My only two disappointments are we seem to have no leaders of vision, I don't believe there was an Iraqi version of a Marshal Plan...if it's what's going on now it's bad. I also believe the US should use General George Patton's 5-word manifesto of war when dealing with Iraq i.e. "violent attacks everywhere with everything" This is also how Grant's Army of the Potomac finally defeated Robert E Lee. This is how the allies won WWII.

Two weeks ago we shut down an Iraqi newspaper (freedom of the press?), reminded me of one of the causes of our own rebellion against the British. Today we bombed and rocketed a mosque...probably not a way to influence folks...direct violation of the Geneva Convention..but saved US lives.

So..I'm confused...but praying daily for our men & women over there in the gulf and their families here at home. What's really disappointing is that some of the POS officers in my work area don't get it, these fanatic terrorist people want us dead, and our citizens are counting on us to prevent that.
Tom

[8Mud]

Hey Woodstock, Go take a close look at the eastern border of Austria, the valleys and mountain passes clear to the swiss border. Get up high and look down. Gun emplacements, built into the side of the mountains, pretty much covering any larger access routes. Bridges are all wired and primed to blow. Austrian Government does a pretty good job of insulating it´s population. If Austria didn´t keep a tight border, it would have been overrun by Slovacs, hungarians and Slovenians a long time ago. Austria would be a tough nut to crack, in an invasion and they keep a really tight control on immigration.
Austrians did a really good job with there defences, hard to spot, unless you know what your looking for.
Austria has a history of being teflon coated, maybe the rewards weren´t worth the effort. They have had rather large upheavals near and all around you in the last half century. I was down on your border when, Russia invaded Czechoslovakia, worked with the Austrian troops, small units but well trained. Saw the F-15´s and 16´s flying through your airspace, also saw the MIG´s flying through your airspace.
Froh Osterzeit, Happy Easter

[8Mud]

Guess Austria is more than a little off topic, just makeing a point, that living in a mountain fortress, is some removed from being a pacifist and getting along with everybody. When Serbia was doing it´s thing in Croatia and Slovinia,there was no refuge to be found in Austria. About the same refuge the Iraqi, Kurds got from Turkey.
Most time it appears Austria sits behind it´s walls and doesn´t worry much about what´s gonna on outside them. Austria has really tight borders, always has. There Army may be small, but there border police are huge.
By the way, Wien (Vienna) is one of the nicest and friendliest cities I´ve ever been too. Really neat place, nice place to visit.

[ladywolf]

Everyone, please pray for all of us in 1st Armored Division. We all just got extended, and everyone who just got home gets to come right back out here. I was ready to convoy to kuwait, all my stuff was packed and on the truck, when they told us. for you other soldiers out there, send me a message if you want, I'll be around for awhile.

[8Mud]

Wish you the best and pray for your safe return. Don´t get so down, you don´t pay attention, attitude is a large part of getting home safe. People might argue about the war in Iraq, but nobodies argueing, the people in the military deserve our whole hearted support.
P.S. talking about movements is a no-no, but it will probably be on the news tonight anyway. Take care.

[Eagle]

Everyone, please pray for all of us in 1st Armored Division. We all just got extended, and everyone who just got home gets to come right back out here. I was ready to convoy to kuwait, all my stuff was packed and on the truck, when they told us. for you other soldiers out there, send me a message if you want, I'll be around for awhile.

God bless y'all, Ladywolf. Stay in one piece.

[Ralph]

Hang tight, girl. You'll get you home as soon as the time is right. Your being there really does matter to a lot of people. Your presence supports not only your brothers in arms but the Iraqi people and all of us Americans. Thank you and the rest of our forces so much for your effort and sacrifice. I pray that the effort put forth by all of you will help make the world a safer place for not only we Americans, but the world.

Thank you and may God bless you,

[ladywolf]

We got the okay to tell everyone, so its fine. its not like the iraqi's dont know where we are at anyhow, ya know?

[woody]

Reorient and get stronger. Pass the lessons learned over to your newbie peers... If my bro-in-law flys a MH60 Nighthawk into your camp, patch him up extra good... sis wants him home intact.

See ya on the trail someday Kristen & thanks for serving! We're :clap: you cats awn!

[Glenn B]

Reorient and get stronger. Pass the lessons learned over to your newbie peers... If my bro-in-law flys a MH60 Nighthawk into your camp, patch him up extra good... sis wants him home intact.

See ya on the trail someday Kristen & thanks for serving! We're :clap: you cats awn!
Patch em all up... even Woodys kin. ;) America loves em all. Get home safe, and thanks for doing what ya do.
Glenn

[woody]

Patch em all up... even Woodys kin. ;) America loves em all. Get home safe, and thanks for doing what ya do.
Glenn

Woody's Kin includes a CW2 Hawk Pilot and a Marine E2 Grunt.

Friends include 2 more young Marine Grunts who know little of it, and several SpOps NCOs who love it & live it every day for the last 15-20. Just another game day for those cats. We ain't paying them to be anything less than competent.

[ladywolf]

Don't worry if they send a bird across the airfield I'll patch it up and get him out there. Things here are relatively quiet, but the unit is being stupid (typical army). Hope to see yall out on the trail soon!

Kristen

[Tom R.]

There was more than enough misinformation spread around during the events that led to the war, so I wanted to clarify these points to help prevent more misinformation...


Last year I was not sure that invading Iraq was a good idea...the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi not Iraqi....Two separate things. Iraq was not attacked because of 9/11.


Today we bombed and rocketed a mosque...probably not a way to influence folks...direct violation of the Geneva Convention..but saved US lives.

Direct or not, this clearly was NOT a violation of the Geneva Convention. Anytime a combatant uses a religious building, hospital, school, or any type of vehicle designated with the red cross or crescent as a place to stage hostilities, conduct military ops, store weapons, etc, then it becomes a legit target. Likewise, non-combatants who take up arms automatically become combats. The U.S. military has the law of armed conflict (LOAC) drilled into them and knows better than to attack something that does not fit the definition of a legal target.

[XJEEPER]

Good points Tom, I don't understand why it is so difficult to comprehend.......that war is never fair or just. Innocent lives are lost, collateral damage occurs. Just be grateful that it isn't your neighborhood, church or mosque that the bad guys decide to use as a base camp.

Think about this, how difficult is it for our troops to tell the difference between a supportive Iraqi that is happy to have Saddam gone, and a combative Iraqi that can't wait to get a US Marine in his crosshairs?

Quite often, their appearance is the same, but our troops must judge them each by their actions. We too, will be judged by our actions.

Like it or not, this is a war between Good and Evil.......you can't have it both ways......which side are you on?

This one won't be over soon so get used to hearing about folks getting killed....... Honor those that give their lives for our freedom by supporting them. It's easy to sit here and pass judgement on our leaders, but just like you and I......they aren't perfect. I'm tired of hearing about the politics of crude oil, comparisons to Vietnam and Watergate.........and I'm glad that we have a President with a spine, and morals.


God Bless our troops, pray for their safety and for victory.

[ECKSJAY]

There was more than enough misinformation spread around during the events that led to the war, so I wanted to clarify these points to help prevent more misinformation...

<snip>

Direct or not, this clearly was NOT a violation of the Geneva Convention. Anytime a combatant uses a religious building, hospital, school, or any type of vehicle designated with the red cross or crescent as a place to stage hostilities, conduct military ops, store weapons, etc, then it becomes a legit target. Likewise, non-combatants who take up arms automatically become combats. The U.S. military has the law of armed conflict (LOAC) drilled into them and knows better than to attack something that does not fit the definition of a legal target.

Hehe, I'll never forget my Drill SGT explaining this one during the Geneva/Hague class. He was explaining how hospitals and vehicles with red crosses aren't legit targets...<thick NY accent>No Pwivates, dat doesn't mean you put wed cwosses on an Apache an go light up da neighbahood.</thick NY accent>

[8Mud]

A little world view on the conflict in Iraq, the first thing on the evening news here in Germany, was the two missing GSG 9 troopers (German Green Berets) that went missing between Jordan and Bagdad, they were just driving along minding there own business. :doh: Then a spot about the Japenese hostages and how dangerous America is making the situation. :doh: Then about the 456 civilians the Americans have killed, guess our aim is so bad, we always miss the bad guys and hit the innocents. Then about the American casualties, inflated count. A few pictures of burning American tanks and then wounded Iraqi children. I´m paraphrasing a bit, but the flavor is pretty darn close.

[Tom R.]

Just goes to show that the U.S. isn't the only country with an obviously biased news media.

[ladywolf]

I will definitely agree when I say that the news is biased. There are a lot of good things in Iraq that we have done. Rebuilt schools, obviously captured saddam, brought back a better quality of life, one free from fear of repression for doing anything that their maniacal dictator doesnt like, among numerous other things. Granted, I dont like being deployed over here, but its my job. And I'm going to do my job to the best of my ability, then get my ass home so I can go wheel with my friends. All this extention they shoved on me is serving to do is buy more parts for my Jeep. Hehe. Well, off to do something (not sure yet, but i'll find something to do)

Kristen

[poomba]

I will definitely agree when I say that the news is biased. There are a lot of good things in Iraq that we have done. Rebuilt schools, obviously captured saddam, brought back a better quality of life, one free from fear of repression for doing anything that their maniacal dictator doesnt like, among numerous other things. Granted, I dont like being deployed over here, but its my job. And I'm going to do my job to the best of my ability, then get my ass home so I can go wheel with my friends. All this extention they shoved on me is serving to do is buy more parts for my Jeep. Hehe. Well, off to do something (not sure yet, but i'll find something to do)

Kristen
Bearhug, K. We'll keep the trails warm for ya..

[Tom R.]

I will definitely agree when I say that the news is biased. There are a lot of good things in Iraq that we have done. Rebuilt schools, obviously captured saddam, brought back a better quality of life, one free from fear of repression for doing anything that their maniacal dictator doesnt like, among numerous other things. Granted, I dont like being deployed over here, but its my job. And I'm going to do my job to the best of my ability, then get my ass home so I can go wheel with my friends. All this extention they shoved on me is serving to do is buy more parts for my Jeep. Hehe. Well, off to do something (not sure yet, but i'll find something to do)

Kristen
Be safe over there, Kristen. We appreciate what you're doing and hope for the safe and speedy return of all of our troops. I'll probably retire before I have the chance to deploy again......not that I want to go back to the Middle East.....but I understand the sacrifices you and the others are experiencing, so just wanted to say thanks.

Tom

[dellstopjeep]

i may be young, but i do know that im proud of what u are doin over there. be safe and hope to see u wheelin in my area someday/ :thumbup:

[Gil BullyKatz]

NEVER forget, no matter what the media presents, no matter what the reason is for your being there, that there are millions of people back home that appreciate your sacrifice and wish your safe return.
Politics-shmolitics...The majority of our troops have no choice in how, when and where they serve. To them belong our best wishes and support.
When back in the land of the big PX and ever near Chicago, give a holler, I can personally thank you and introduce my daughter to a real role model.

Gil "Thank You" Bullycatz


Never hold discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room.
-Sir Winston Churchill-

[Woodstock]

@ 8Mud: We are no mountain fortress (like the swiss). There are only mountains in the western area no mountains in the eastern. Also our troops are not the same since that time the russian invaded CZ. I was in our army 1991, and no one really wanted to fight. We also use old weapons by now (tanks - first used by the US in WWII).

I hope that your troops will come home soon and that there will be killed no one else. Some attacks are brutal to let you strike back in a brutal way too. Just work on to build a good government (which will be hard enough, because there are 2, 3 or 4 different kind of people - schiits, sunits, kurdis, ....). In my opinion there is no solution to leave this country and the country will stay in freedom. Sooner or later they will start a war against themselves to find another strong leader who will be like saddam was.

greetings from austria
Rainer

[ladywolf]

Hey everyone thank you for the support, it is a really great thing to have. Dell, you will hopefully see me at the end of this summer, talk to ecksjay and willis and them, i think we might all be planning a big bash/wheeling event or something. Poomba I might just hold you to that hug!;) I hope I do get to meet your daughter, I might end up going back to ft. campbell, so I'll be within a day's drive or so. The weather here is a balmy 90+ degrees, and its only getting hotter. Not much else going on, really, until we get our birds back. 1st cav guys brought in pieces parts of the apache that went down (sure you guys heard about it). it was literally just pieces parts.....terrible thing. anyhow, hope to see you guys at the end of the summer!

Kristen

[aspera]

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4871859

http://www.counterpunch.org/procter02152003.html

The first link is the recent Hardball interview of Donald Rumsfeld. The second link is an article on the Powell Doctrine written over a year ago. I find it interesting how Donald Rumsfeld responded to Chris Mattew's question about the Powell Doctrine. (from memory) He basically said that the Powell Doctrine applied to war and that we are now in a different phase of operation (not war). (sorry, I couldn't find the quote)

So yes, Iraq is very different than Viet Nam. In Nam, we didn't win the war or peace. In Iraq, we won the war, but have not yet won the peace.

OR

You could argue that we are still at war and that the Powell Doctrine is not being applied.

Now, whether we in truth had a valid reason to go into Iraq is another question. We are in. Now we must get out, but how? We can't just leave. That would be the worst thing to do. According to Rumsfeld our exit strategy is to install an acceptable Iraqi government, then leave. All that the bad Iraqis have to do is prevent this.

They can do it by getting the date pushed back, or by making the new government unacceptable. It sounds like the turnover date is set in stone, but who exactly are we turning over the government to? If the new government is not accepted, then back to square one. Who's idea was it to fight religious zealots in the Middle East again?

That leads us to Saudi Arabia. They sure have a lot of oilfields that the U.S. would like to "safeguard".:) Hey, they are a terrorist harboring repressive monarchy right next to Iraq, too! We could go there after the re-election! Especially, now that we have airfields, ports, and bases in Iraq...and don't need Saudi Arabia's help.

[aspera]

Like it or not, this is a war between Good and Evil.......you can't have it both ways......which side are you on?

This one won't be over soon so get used to hearing about folks getting killed....... Honor those that give their lives for our freedom by supporting them. It's easy to sit here and pass judgement on our leaders, but just like you and I......they aren't perfect. I'm tired of hearing about the politics of crude oil, comparisons to Vietnam and Watergate.........and I'm glad that we have a President with a spine, and morals.


I want us to be on the side of Good, but we are seen as being on the side of Evil because we invaded and occupied their country. Oh, and we killed a bunch of them. Can you see why the Iraqis don't like Americans? In our defense, we claim that there was an imminent threat to the US or our allies from WMD or terrorism...yet we can offer no valid proof.

You are right. It won't be over soon. We hear about folks getting killed, but aren't allowed to see pictures of bodybags or caskets.

How many times do we have to invade Iraq before you get that it is over oil?:)

George W. Bush has a spine? Well, he did lead us into an unprovoked invasion of a smaller foreign country...kinda like Saddam did with Kuwait. So yeah, Bush has almost as much spine as Saddam did when he invaded Kuwait. :doh:

[Kejtar]

George W. Bush has a spine? Well, he did lead us into an unprovoked invasion of a smaller foreign country...kinda like Saddam did with Kuwait. So yeah, Bush has almost as much spine as Saddam did when he invaded Kuwait. :doh:

I don't know why this argument gets to me so much, but I think it's time for a small history lesson. Starting in about mid 1930's when Hitler came to power he kept taking small steps towards braking the agreements signed at the end of WWI. He bent rules about armament on warships, he bent rules about arming his miltary (creation of civil units trained as military units, just needing to be handed weapons to become fully active front line units). His political enemies had a tendency to dissapear overnight and the "under people" went to labor camps. And each time he did something "bad" that was caught by the rest of the world he was asked not to do it again and threatened with action. Then he invated and anexed Austria. Following that he annexed part of Czech republic. This last action IIRC sparked a bit stronger reaction: Brits sent out Chamberlain who at the end got assurances from Hitler that he is done and he will not attact anyone else.... Well we all know how that ended: a 6 year war which killed milions!

Jump now about 60 years into the future. We have Iraw which takes over Kuwait, which opresses the Kurds, people are afraid to speak out against current administration because they might not see the light of day again for doing so. Then after loosing the Gulf War and withdrawing from Kuwait, how many times have they broken the agreements resulting from the Gulf War? Agreements which by themselves were sufficient reason to elicit armed response? So we didn't find WMD. But you know what? I'm not that sure if they didn't have something going or had plans to have something going. You think that if we didn't move in things would go away? I don't think so. When the world waited and did nothing about Germany before WW2, everyone paid a price. That price was very high: it included a lot of dead, a lot of crippled and orphaned. Countries destroyed, infrastracture destroyed..... need I go on? If you read the rerports from Iraq, how many people say that they do not know what happened to their mother, father, brother, sister? They sometimes never came back home from going shopping or were taken at night and never heard from again. So let me ask again: what do you think would happen if we did nothing??

I lost my grandfather during WW2. I have never met him, my mother was 3 years old and to this day she talks about the memory of him being taken out of the house and noone knows what has happened to him. So the BS about having no right to go in and save the innocent people of Iraq just drives me up the wall. Yes I know not all are innocent, but hey, not all Germans were that innocent nor not all Japanese were innocent and look how they all turned out now!!

Oh yeah.. media.. politicians that are against war and so on. Call me crazy, but they are mostly crooked. They will take on a viewpoint that will be best for their political career. After coming back from Vietnam Kerry chose to be "anti war". The reason I say chose is that because IMHO it was a very convenient time to be anti war were such sympathies would get one better chances of political advancement. Same thing with media: what sells? Controversy sells!! How many times do you see articles, hear news reports about how bad the war is? What about all the good that came out of it? I have a sattelite which gets feeds from Europe (no it's not DIshnetwork nor DirectTV) and it actually even gets some middle eastern stations (I just don't know the latter languages so I got no clue what they are saying). Anyways, I get to often see the other side of the war. Reports about people being saved, helped and rescued. Some reports I have seen made me thing of pictures showing how the allied forces have freed people from the concentration camps......

Ok.... time to get of my :soapbox: and do something constructive.
Kejtar
P.S.
To all those that are crying about "someone" they know being kidnapped and sent to go to war.... last time I checked draft was not in effect and all that joined up they did so out of their free will.... and if someone joins the military thiking that they will never have to fight... well.... they should ask to be dismissed due to mental problems as they have to be mental to think so! Military=army=might have to actually fight some day!

[Kejtar]

Oh yeah... my deepest thanks to all those in service both abroad and at home!

[aspera]

Well, if I understand your arguement, then you compare Saddam to Hitler. That's a pretty good comparision. Both ruthless dictators were unchecked for too long. The difference is that Hitler was a direct and immediate threat to the U.S. and our allies. Saddam wasn't. Since the first Gulf War he kept inside his borders.

Now, he was still a very bad guy...but why did Iraq need to be dealt with so urgently so late in the game when other countries were just as bad? Why ignore Saddam's aggression for decades and then get hot on taking him out? What about the other countries that have killed millions, or starve their own people, or have nuclear weapons and missles? You know, the ones without oil...

What do I think would have happened if we would have not invaded Iraq?
1. A couple hundred U.S. soldiers, airmen, and sailors would still be alive.
2. Saddam would be getting closer to death every day.
3. We would have not diverted resources from Afghanistan.
4. We *might* have killed or captured the true immediate and proven threat to the U.S.----BIN LADEN.
5. We would have hundreds of millions of dollars, not spent on Iraq.
6. We could have gathered evidence supporting WMDs and terrorist ties...so that the U.S. doesn't look like a bunch of a$$holes.
7. We could have gotten other countries on board to supply money and soldiers, so that the cost was shared.
8. We could have had time to plan out:
A) who we would turn Iraq over to??
B) when we would turn it over?
C) how we would turn it over??
D) when we would get U.S. personnel out of Iraq?!?!
E) how we would get U.S. personnel out of Iraq?
F) a way to tell the U.S. and the world WHY we are in Iraq!:)

[Kejtar]

Well, if I understand your arguement, then you compare Saddam to Hitler. That's a pretty good comparision. Both ruthless dictators were unchecked for too long. The difference is that Hitler was a direct and immediate threat to the U.S. and our allies. Saddam wasn't. Since the first Gulf War he kept inside his borders.

Well you kind of missed my point. In the beginning Hitler also wasn't a threat to US. Also US bussineses supported the third reich in the beginning as well (remember the stuff about IBM and Ford?). So what I'm saying Saddam was bad and the claim that he is not a threat to us is BS as if he was not a threat then, then he was going to become a threat sooner or later.... and btw, I read up a bit about oil and stuff .... and guess what, most of US oil DOES NOT come from middle east! so again the argument that it's the war for oil is BS.

[JohnJohn]

Kristen
I not only believe in you, but your mission. Stay safe and your duty is not only appreciated, but JUST. Iraq is out modern day Germany. Lets' all remember our country fought side by side with Russia to defeat Hitler. Lets all hope that 30 years of COLD war is all that follows this.

Vietnam Comparison
I'm not old enough to compare, so unlike others I will not. I do know however that I never met my Uncle because of that war.

Ted Coppell
If what he did on Nightline the other night was to pay tribute to those fallen solders in Iraq...then why didn't he wait until the conflict was over, and then pay tribute? Ted, I see through you, and to use the faces and names of fallen solders to make a political statement sickens me.

9/11
In the last few weeks all we've heard about was whose fault 9/11 was. Those asking these questions are the same ones that would have been calling up the ACLU wanting to file class action suits against the airlines for profiling young Arab men. Can you imagine what the nightly news would have said if 3 months before 9/11 we stopped every young Arab man from boarding a plane?

Sorry to the plethora of topics, but those are some things I was feeling after reading the entire thread.

[aspera]

Well you kind of missed my point. In the beginning Hitler also wasn't a threat to US. Also US bussineses supported the third reich in the beginning as well (remember the stuff about IBM and Ford?). So what I'm saying Saddam was bad and the claim that he is not a threat to us is BS as if he was not a threat then, then he was going to become a threat sooner or later.... and btw, I read up a bit about oil and stuff .... and guess what, most of US oil DOES NOT come from middle east! so again the argument that it's the war for oil is BS.

I don't think I missed your point. Hitler was a direct threat to us AND our allies well before we declared war on Germany. We have yet to declare war on Iraq, officially.:) In WW2 we had the moral high ground.

Are you saying that Saddam *WAS* or *WAS going to be* an immediate threat to the U.S. or our allies? Got proof? I mean, I could say that the Olsen Twins are going to become a threat to the U.S. (or our allies). Should we kill them tommorrow? :laugh:

Iraq has oil. Some of the oil goes to the U.S., some goes to other places like Europe. Whoever controls that oil controls the countries that buy that oil. Even if the U.S. gets only 5% of our oil from Iraq...that's a lot of oil$$$.

[poomba]

I don't think I missed your point. Hitler was a direct threat to us AND our allies well before we declared war on Germany. We have yet to declare war on Iraq, officially.:) In WW2 we had the moral high ground.

Ar
Iraq has oil. Some of the oil goes to the U.S., some goes to other places like Europe. Whoever controls that oil controls the countries that buy that oil. Even if the U.S. gets only 5% of our oil from Iraq...that's a lot of oil$$$.

We still have the moral high ground. When we find soldiers abusing prisoners, they are punished. Our prisoners aren't tossed into tree shredders. As for oil, yep, that DOES concern US interests, as any strategic resource does. Frankly, we don't give a good hoot in hell, what religion they choose to pursue. It is also in our interest, to hunt down and kill fanatics, before they do the same to me and mine, and I applaud any goverment that has the spine to do so. Kejtar's got a lot more tact than I do. I'd have given Iraq 36 hours to toss every person seen dancing for joy at the sight of burned bodies out the city gates, or leveled the city. Don't agree? Fine. But don't expect me to cry in my bowl of granola, when some AK toting son of a camel gets his head blown off. I don't wring my hands, it slows down reloading.

[Kejtar]

I don't think I missed your point. Hitler was a direct threat to us AND our allies well before we declared war on Germany.

OK, I don't know how else to say it, but you'd better read up a bit on history of 1930's. US wasn't really allied to closely with Brits or French or Russians. A lot of people fought under the British flag as volunteers as the Americans did not want to get in the middle and some actually (politicians) wondered which side was right...... So no, Hitler was not a direct threat to US till WAY late in the game.

[JohnJohn]

In WW2 we had the moral high ground.

What specificly gave us the "moral high ground" in WWII?

[JohnJohn]

Iraq has oil. Some of the oil goes to the U.S., some goes to other places like Europe. Whoever controls that oil controls the countries that buy that oil. Even if the U.S. gets only 5% of our oil from Iraq...that's a lot of oil$$$.

Read up on the UN oil for Food programs. You will find out that France, Russia, and Germany were much more interested in oil from Iraq. Someone should tell the Russians that you can't eat rocket propelled grandees.

If we were truly interested in oil from Iraq, why didn't we just send them food under the UN Food for Oil program? IMHO: Your argument sucks.

[aspera]

OK, I don't know how else to say it, but you'd better read up a bit on history of 1930's. US wasn't really allied to closely with Brits or French or Russians. A lot of people fought under the British flag as volunteers as the Americans did not want to get in the middle and some actually (politicians) wondered which side was right...... So no, Hitler was not a direct threat to US till WAY late in the game.

So what you are saying (and what I am trying to say) is that Hitler's Germany WAS a direct threat to the US and our allies BEFORE we DECLARED WAR on them and INVADED them. Now, you can argue that wasn't the case a decade or more before the invasion, but I'm talking about the time frame right before war.

[aspera]

Read up on the UN oil for Food programs. You will find out that France, Russia, and Germany were much more interested in oil from Iraq. Someone should tell the Russians that you can't eat rocket propelled grandees.

If we were truly interested in oil from Iraq, why didn't we just send them food under the UN Food for Oil program? IMHO: Your argument sucks.

So if the US of A controls the Iraqi oil.....and France, Russia, and Germany want the Iraqi oil....we have leverage over them. See? It doesn't HAVE to be the United States that actually burns the oil.

I also think that part of the reason for the invasion is a Lilly Pad Strategy for projecting military power. Instead of digging in like we did in Germany for the Cold War, we can shift resources around.

[JohnJohn]

So if the US of A controls the Iraqi oil.....and France, Russia, and Germany want the Iraqi oil....we have leverage over them. See? It doesn't HAVE to be the United States that actually burns the oil.

Exactly why would we need leverage over them, what do/did we need it for? I'm confused. Are you trying to convince us that The US went to war to teach Russia, France and Germany a lesson? The second set of UN resolution against Iraq, they voted YES on. IMO: The only reason they voted no on the third set of resolutions that called for force was because they didn't want everyone finding out about the oil for arms/technology program. The lesson I "SEE" however is different. The lesson they learned was that the US will not allow France and Russia, specificly, to give nuclear technology and arms to Iraq for oil. Without war, and removing Saddam, how specificly were we to stop this?

I also think that part of the reason for the invasion is a Lilly Pad Strategy for projecting military power. Instead of digging in like we did in Germany for the Cold War, we can shift resources around.

More specifics about this point and how it realates. Remember Germany surrendered. In Iraq they are still fighting.

[Kejtar]

So what you are saying (and what I am trying to say) is that Hitler's Germany WAS a direct threat to the US and our allies BEFORE we DECLARED WAR on them and INVADED them. Now, you can argue that wasn't the case a decade or more before the invasion, but I'm talking about the time frame right before war.

NO! I'm saying that the Germany WAS NOT A THREAT TO THE US. The fact that people chose to join the fight did not reflect the political and economical relationship between Germany and US. Remember WWII started September 1st 1939 and Germany started anexing and taking over teritories as far back as 1936 (or was it 37? can't remember now). So we are not talking about anyting as spread out as a decade. We are talking about years leading up until the war with the first years of war included. It wasn't up until late 1940's that the US got involved with helping out the Brits by putting into the effect the lend lease program which was just a "business" relationship for the most part and it wasn't till at least a year from that time that the US commited any troops to the war because of the realization that it's not going to end good if Hitler is to gain control of Europe.

[aspera]

NO! I'm saying that the Germany WAS NOT A THREAT TO THE US. The fact that people chose to join the fight did not reflect the political and economical relationship between Germany and US. Remember WWII started September 1st 1939 and Germany started anexing and taking over teritories as far back as 1936 (or was it 37? can't remember now). So we are not talking about anyting as spread out as a decade. We are talking about years leading up until the war with the first years of war included. It wasn't up until late 1940's that the US got involved with helping out the Brits by putting into the effect the lend lease program which was just a "business" relationship for the most part and it wasn't till at least a year from that time that the US commited any troops to the war because of the realization that it's not going to end good if Hitler is to gain control of Europe.

1936-1946 is a decade. The US didn't fully get involved with the war and European Allied invasion until the last few years. Like you said, Germany wasn't seen as a threat to the US in the earlier years.

You also mentioned that Hitler's European empire was seen as a threat to the United States...in the same paragraph that you say Germany WAS NOT A THREAT TO THE US.

[aspera]

[QUOTE=JohnJohn] Without war, and removing Saddam, how specificly were we to stop this?
QUOTE]

Bomb France?:)

I really don't admit to knowing much about the Lilly Pad strategy. I just think that it is one of the many reasons that we are in Iraq. As I understand it, the United States wants to be able to have bases all over the world (lilly pads). These bases are supposed to be manned with the needed personnel and equipment for the threat level in the region. That means they are lightly staffed when peace breaks out, which frees up the men and equipment for threats in other parts of the world. At hotspots (like the Middle East), men and equipment are rapidly deployed to the bases already there.

Just like an aircraft carrier can quickly project military power by moving the men and equipment where they need to be, the army will "hop" from lilly pad to lilly pad. I might have it wrong, but that's my understanding of it. The strategy cuts cost and makes response time quicker.

[Kejtar]

1936-1946 is a decade. The US didn't fully get involved with the war and European Allied invasion until the last few years. Like you said, Germany wasn't seen as a threat to the US in the earlier years.

You also mentioned that Hitler's European empire was seen as a threat to the United States...in the same paragraph that you say Germany WAS NOT A THREAT TO THE US.

Before I give up... I will try one last time. War oficially started in 1939. "Bad things" (for lack of a better phrase) started to happen as far back as 1936. US at that time was not involved or actually it was involved economically and financially supporting the Third Reich. US was actually benefiting from that relationship!
In any case, yes, I stand by what I said: Germany was not a threat to US at that time. It was very possible that it would never become a direct threat, but it was a threat to global security and stability which was one of the main reasons US finally got involved. From this you can draw a parallel to Iraq. Even if one was to go as far as saying that Iraq was not a direct threat to US, it is (was?) a threat to stability of the region thus affecting the global stability which hurts everyone: not only US.
A lot of people have said: oh it's so far away from us. Why should we get involved? You have to consider the potential problems that might arise from lack of involvement now. As you look upon the past 10 years, think about how Iraq's cooperation changed. Right after the gulf war, they were somewhat quiet and subdued. Then they started to rattle their swords and when they got some missile sites blown up they shut up again and then when some tiem would pass they would rattle their swords again and get some missile sites blown up..... How long do you think this would go on like that? Do you think it would never go further then that?? Also again, look at the people of the country. Look under what kind of fear and conditions they had to live!! Look at how minorities were treated there.
So yeah I will agree with anyone that says war sucks, but I also realize that war is sometimes necessary to resolve issues that can't be resolved any other way. And any and all who think that negotiation and diplomacy can be used to resolve all problems should have their heads examined.

[xjblue]

Germany was not a threat to US at that time , I desagree, Germany was at very least an unknown threat at the time. With Hitler in charge and pulling off his plans like he was he became a threat the moment he started acting on them. his plans had to have the US as a future primary target seing how our basis of Freedom was a polar opposite to his ideals, that meant that each action he took brought Germany closer to ultimate war with the United States, the anti war sentiments in our country at the time could have helped him right along if it weren't for a President in office with a good head on his shoulders who found ways to prepare and help the allies counter Hitlers moves without declaring open war. Remember it was Hitler who declared war on the United States after Japan played the Pearl Harbor card. Japan in league with Germany did attack us on our own soil, it's very sad that is what it took to get us involved. May we never forget that lesson.

[Kejtar]

Well, my point exactly. Hitler was specific always that this next step(Austria, then Czechs,then French...) was the last step. He never let it know what he want to happen in the future.... so yeah, one could make a determination that Germany could become a threat, but that point they were not... jus like Iraq could have been considered not to be a threat...

, I desagree, Germany was at very least an unknown threat at the time. With Hitler in charge and pulling off his plans like he was he became a threat the moment he started acting on them. his plans had to have the US as a future primary target seing how our basis of Freedom was a polar opposite to his ideals, that meant that each action he took brought Germany closer to ultimate war with the United States, the anti war sentiments in our country at the time could have helped him right along if it weren't for a President in office with a good head on his shoulders who found ways to prepare and help the allies counter Hitlers moves without declaring open war. Remember it was Hitler who declared war on the United States after Japan played the Pearl Harbor card. Japan in league with Germany did attack us on our own soil, it's very sad that is what it took to get us involved. May we never forget that lesson.

[xjblue]

Well, my point exactly. Hitler was specific always that this next step(Austria, then Czechs,then French...) was the last step. He never let it know what he want to happen in the future.... so yeah, one could make a determination that Germany could become a threat, but that point they were not... jus like Iraq could have been considered not to be a threat...

I'm saying you don't need to be attacking something or about to destroy it to be a threat to it. The term threat can be described as a potential for harm. A potential threat then is a potential potential for harm. Hitler was a potential potential for harm before he came in to power. Hitler became a threat the moment he acheived power with a country at his disposal to effectuate his plans, long before He declared War with the US, long before a German sub ever sunk an American ship, even before he blitzed his first country.

[Kejtar]

I'm saying you don't need to be attacking something or about to destroy it to be a threat to it. The term threat can be described as a potential for harm. A potential threat then is a potential potential for harm. Hitler was a potential potential for harm before he came in to power. Hitler became a threat the moment he acheived power with a country at his disposal to effectuate his plans, long before He declared War with the US, long before a German sub ever sunk an American ship, even before he blitzed his first country.

I agree with what you're saying. The issue was (is?) that people want to see a direct threat and in such context I was replying. Also, in the same manner I think that Iraq was (is?) a threat to US and probably even more so then Hitler's Germany was due to current state of technology and terrorism.

[JohnJohn]

I think that Iraq was (is?) a threat to US and probably even more so then Hitler's Germany was due to current state of technology and terrorism.

:clap: Very well said IMO

[xjblue]

:clap: Very well said IMO

well said indeed!

:us: bless our troops! and I'm going to also say
bless our leaders too, that they may make good decisions. :us:

[ladywolf]

You guys know, based upon what everything in the past, and most things that are possibly in the united states' future, we are just securing our place. we are trying to protect ourselves, and in the meantime we are the worlds police force. germany didnt send troops to iraq, spain XXXXXXd out, basically its mostly us, the italians, the british, and the aussies that are here, and we all do our jobs well (with the exception of 1st cav which is the reason why i'm still here). Whether or not we took control of Iraq and captured saddam, there is still going to be terrorism because of our technology. I agree that Saddam was becoming a major threat again, and that he was doing a lot of underhanded stuff. you wouldnt believe some of the things the US military found over here, the suffering and oppression these people were going through. we thought hitler was cruel, what he did to his people was at genocide, but he didnt keep them in the facilities that hitler was keeping people in. you want to really break a person down, you put them in iraq and have them fight camel spiders and scorpions every day. saddam basically pitted everyone against each other, and let them duke it out. it was disgusting. well, i suppose i'm rambling so i'm going to get back to work doing my job, and hopefully before I know it, my brothers and sisters in the 1st armored division will be able to COME HOME!

Kristen

[Gil BullyKatz]

Hell.... I'll upgrade the offer, BBQ if ever in Chicago area. Keep the thought of coming home fresh in your mind and before you know it, you will be.
Thanks


Gil "Politics are for Generals...Guns are for Grunts" Bullycatz

[aspera]

We still have the moral high ground. When we find soldiers abusing prisoners, they are punished. Our prisoners aren't tossed into tree shredders.

Did you post this before the "Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal" story broke? Sorry, I've been gone on vacation.

I wish the news shows would just call it what it is...torture. The US approves of torturing certain prisoners. Ok. I just hate it when they call it "aggressive interrogation" or "alleged prisoner abuse". They are just making material for George Carlin.

It seems that the "moral high ground" isn't very high in Iraq. As long as you don't behead a civilian, you're a saint. :wierd:

[MountainGoat]

I served several years in the military. And I have to say that when I saw that footage of berg being beheaded.... I felt nothing but rage.... made me want to go back in even though I am to old now. All I could see in my mind when viewing that footage was after 9-11 when the people in the middle east were dancing and partying in the streets. They saw it as a celebration.... includin with the palestinians.... sorry but these days I dont even see why we bother... they verbally denounce this stuff but you know dammed well they are helping out.

[Kejtar]

Did you post this before the "Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal" story broke? Sorry, I've been gone on vacation.

I wish the news shows would just call it what it is...torture. The US approves of torturing certain prisoners. Ok. I just hate it when they call it "aggressive interrogation" or "alleged prisoner abuse". They are just making material for George Carlin.

It seems that the "moral high ground" isn't very high in Iraq. As long as you don't behead a civilian, you're a saint. :wierd:

Dude what planet are you living on? Yeah war sucks, especially one where you gotta put up with crap like guerilla tactics that the Iraqis use. Noone is safe there: civilian and news people included! They even kill their own! And you're talking about the prisoner abuse scandal. Yes they got treated rough, but have you really heard of anyone being tortured? Give me an example! I want to hear about someone who got hooked up to an electrical chair and was being supplied with varied charge levels. I want to hear about someone whipped to death. Someone who had all their bones broken in their body!! THIS IS TORTURE! What happened there was a bunch of idiots not knowing what their doing (I don't think they even achieved anything) but it definately wasn't torture in the full meaning of this word.
I think that part of the problem is that people have become complacent in their lives, they got set in their routines and they forgot all the downed airliners, all the people in those 2 towers, people from the Lockerbie (sp?) and so on. Yes it is easy to sit at home and talk about moral high ground while there are people who are getting killed by an brain washed enemy who's only goal is to kill others even at the cost of his/her own life in order to achieve eternal salvation (not to even mention the virgins). Oh and who does the brain washing? the religious fanatics who want POWER.

[speedn431]

I have a link to the decapitation of the us civilian if anyone would like to see it. It really helped to put into context the frame of mind that we are up against. It was hard for me to get through, but it helps me remember why we are over there. I don't want to post it, but if you PM me I will send it to you. As a soldier, I would ask you to not just pray for us, but pray for the civilians that are getting caught up in all of this too.

[ladywolf]

speedn, i agree. As a soldier still here IN iraq, theres been a lot of talk about the prison "abuse" and the decapitation and everything else. It was the guys own fault, the us military offered to transport him somewhere safe. Decapitation is cruel and unusual, especially the way they did that to that civilian. The US military is here for a reason. while those reasons may not seem the greatest at times, i will back my leaders 100%. I dont want to see another world trade center go down, or a plane getting crashed into the pentagon, or the whitehouse, or anyplace else. I am serving my country proudly, and while I may not always agree with my superiors, i will always back them.

[Kejtar]

If you are going to be able to show up to Moab this year beer's on me!! (if not then, then some other time then :D)
speedn, i agree. As a soldier still here IN iraq, theres been a lot of talk about the prison "abuse" and the decapitation and everything else. It was the guys own fault, the us military offered to transport him somewhere safe. Decapitation is cruel and unusual, especially the way they did that to that civilian. The US military is here for a reason. while those reasons may not seem the greatest at times, i will back my leaders 100%. I dont want to see another world trade center go down, or a plane getting crashed into the pentagon, or the whitehouse, or anyplace else. I am serving my country proudly, and while I may not always agree with my superiors, i will always back them.

[Gil BullyKatz]

The way Ladywolf keeps getting beer and food offers, she's gonna fail her next physical.... ;)

[ladywolf]

Well i'm not a big beer person, but ya never know where I'm gonna pop up. if I get the duty station i want i'll be back in the land of the pac NW, and i'll possibly be able to hit some more jeep runs. at the very least when I take leave, I may end up flyin in and just riding w/ you guys since my 'wheels are in germany!

Kristen

[Kejtar]

Well i'm not a big beer person, but ya never know where I'm gonna pop up. if I get the duty station i want i'll be back in the land of the pac NW, and i'll possibly be able to hit some more jeep runs. at the very least when I take leave, I may end up flyin in and just riding w/ you guys since my 'wheels are in germany!

Kristen

Go for it!! You wouldn't be the first to do that: Hagen flies in every year and rents a jeep :D

[aspera]

Dude what planet are you living on? Yeah war sucks, especially one where you gotta put up with crap like guerilla tactics that the Iraqis use. Noone is safe there: civilian and news people included! They even kill their own! And you're talking about the prisoner abuse scandal. Yes they got treated rough, but have you really heard of anyone being tortured? Give me an example! I want to hear about someone who got hooked up to an electrical chair and was being supplied with varied charge levels. I want to hear about someone whipped to death. Someone who had all their bones broken in their body!! THIS IS TORTURE! What happened there was a bunch of idiots not knowing what their doing (I don't think they even achieved anything) but it definately wasn't torture in the full meaning of this word.
I think that part of the problem is that people have become complacent in their lives, they got set in their routines and they forgot all the downed airliners, all the people in those 2 towers, people from the Lockerbie (sp?) and so on. Yes it is easy to sit at home and talk about moral high ground while there are people who are getting killed by an brain washed enemy who's only goal is to kill others even at the cost of his/her own life in order to achieve eternal salvation (not to even mention the virgins). Oh and who does the brain washing? the religious fanatics who want POWER.

A. I live on Earth like everybody else. Where did you think I live?
Yes, war sucks...I just don't like how Rumsfeld doesn't view it as a war, exactly. First, it isn't a declared war. Second, Rumsfeld thinks the Powell Doctrine only applies to war, not current operations in Iraq. He views those differently, more like "winning the peace".
A. I don't know what you like, but being forced to play naked Twister with other men would be torture for me. Actually, being tied up naked with a bag over your head and kept awake for a long time meets the definition of torture. It may not be a scene from Resevoir Dogs, but it is legally torture.

???Who forgot the terrorist attacks? Not me. I'm all for hunting down those terrorists. But what does that have to do with Iraq? Bin Laden still breathes fresh air and is probably planning more attacks, while we are f'ing around in Iraq. Imagine if a fraction of the manpower and equipment used in Iraq was applied to the hunt for Bin Laden. He is a PROVEN direct threat to the United States, but we are putting up less than a 100% effort to capture or kill him.

It is NOT easy to sit at home and talk about moral high ground. There are too many of you out there that are all too willing to sink down to the level of the enemy. You are all too quick to trade rights and liberties for the illusion of safety. The way that the U.S. treats prisoners is paramount because it effects how U.S. prisoners are treated. Berg was beheaded by those low-lifes because they were getting back at us for the way Iraqi prisoners were treated.

When the U.S. Government can classify people as "suspected terrorists" or "enemy combatants" and use civilian contractors or other non-military personnel (CIA) to interrogate them on foreign soil...then it gets murky. What laws apply? To whom? How are Iraqi laws and courts going to decide when there is no Iraqi government? :laugh:

[Kejtar]

A. I live on Earth like everybody else. Where did you think I live?
Yes, war sucks...I just don't like how Rumsfeld doesn't view it as a war, exactly. First, it isn't a declared war. Second, Rumsfeld thinks the Powell Doctrine only applies to war, not current operations in Iraq. He views those differently, more like "winning the peace".
A. I don't know what you like, but being forced to play naked Twister with other men would be torture for me. Actually, being tied up naked with a bag over your head and kept awake for a long time meets the definition of torture. It may not be a scene from Resevoir Dogs, but it is legally torture.


I agree with you on that, but things were bad before those thing came out and I don't think they make a difference, just give an excuse.
Anyways, those terrorist that attacked the towers are also linked to the same terrorists who continuously attack the troops in Iraq. There is at least one justification for the war for you. Other ones? well, people were opressed by the regime, regime was power hungry and broke all the conditions under which the first gulf war was stopped. Need I go on?
Oh and those responsible for the prisoner scandals, yeah, they should be put to hard labor for life, but the war still needs to go on.

[aspera]

I agree with you on that, but things were bad before those thing came out and I don't think they make a difference, just give an excuse.
Anyways, those terrorist that attacked the towers are also linked to the same terrorists who continuously attack the troops in Iraq. There is at least one justification for the war for you. Other ones? well, people were opressed by the regime, regime was power hungry and broke all the conditions under which the first gulf war was stopped. Need I go on?
Oh and those responsible for the prisoner scandals, yeah, they should be put to hard labor for life, but the war still needs to go on.

Well, "those responsible for the prisoner scandal" might not just be the low-level enlisted people in the pictures.

Some of the terrorists that attack troops in Iraq came into Iraq from other countries after the fact. I guess it is a better strategy to draw them into Iraq for a fight instead of fighting them on American soil. I still don't think that there was a strong link before the war started. Saddam was connected with terroists, but different ones. He allowed anti-Isreali terrorists to operate in Iraq, if I recall.

We were told that Saddam had stockpiles of WMDs and was directly supporting Al Qaeda, who were an imminent threat to the U.S. They were planning another attack. That's a strong reason to go to war...anything less than that is iffy.

[Lupine]

Hey, Ms. Wolf,

I just want you to know you have a place to stay if ever you decide to do the Rubicon. Thank you for protecting us back here in the homeland.

Lupine

[ladywolf]

Lupine,
I really do appreciate it, I may take you up on the offer, you just never know!

Kris
(ms wolf)

[Jeepin_rebel]

You forgot to mention the dozens of virgins part... :D
Actually they retranslated it. Its 12 virginains....sorry lol

[Jeepin_rebel]

Well i'm not a big beer person, but ya never know where I'm gonna pop up. if I get the duty station i want i'll be back in the land of the pac NW, and i'll possibly be able to hit some more jeep runs. at the very least when I take leave, I may end up flyin in and just riding w/ you guys since my 'wheels are in germany!

Kristen

Hey Krisrten. Sorry i didnt get a chance to stop in but they didnt let me hardly take a breath when i came back threw. You know how it goes. Dont forget if yer in the midwest area my door is open.

Ryan

[ladywolf]

hey ryan, thanks for the offer, ya never know when i might show up;) hope to see ya come back thru biap before you leave country. would like to meet ya and talk jeeps (bette'rn talkin about most other things out here).


Kris

[8Mud]

The rule of law and/or the Geniva convention, only really works, if it´s respected by both sides of a conflict.
Sleep deprivation, being to hot/to cold, not getting the right food, not bathing for weeks, laying in an excretment filled holes, with other people laying on top of you, having to watch, while your fellows are maimed and injured. Sounds like tortue to me, but is really, the daliy fare for our grunts and many other soldiers. Not to mention the stress and fear factors.
Mouth off, to the wrong cop and get your head busted. Its a daily occurance on the streets of America.
I´m not saying, what the guards did was right, but not the world shaking event, the media and politicians made it out to be.
If a guard damages a prisoner, with premeditation, he should be held accountable. If he damages his spirit, he has probably made an enemy for life, that will probably bear consequences and encourage another generation of haters.
They looked long and hard for the Scuds, in 91, without much luck. 437,000 square kilometers is a rather large area to search, how hard would it be to hide 10-20 containers of bad stuff. They are still finding weapons catches in Germany after 60 years and Germany is a whole lot more densly populated than Iraq.

[Jeepin_rebel]

hey ryan, thanks for the offer, ya never know when i might show up;) hope to see ya come back thru biap before you leave country. would like to meet ya and talk jeeps (bette'rn talkin about most other things out here).


Kris
Your not kiddin Kris i almost got blown the fawk up today...good thing they dont bother aiming. The topic of war has grown old to myself and most of us i have met out here. Jeepin would be a nice change of pace.

Ryan

[ladywolf]

hey ryan glad yr safe....i gotta brave the sands and hadjis here sometime, gotta convoy somewheres, not sure where (cant really say). it would have upset me to hear that you got hurt, or worse......you better make it home safe, ya got me?


Kris

[JohnJohn]

I usually take what the UN says with a grain of salt BUT...

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_1.html

[8Mud]

Was listening to CNN (international) the other day, one of the talking heads, was saying that the, "NO WMD" was a done deal and acting like the thought, of attacking Iraq without it, really upset her liberal sensitivities.
With all of the oil for food money, Sadam and the bunch had stashed, it´s probable, they were putting together some kind of meaness.
The oil for food money missing, somewhere between, Sadam, the U.N. regulators and the grain exporters. Hasn´t gotten much play in the press lately.
Noticed after Bagdad fell and the population went on the rampage, an awfull lot of paper and files were burnt, seems highly unlikely, people would bother. Last thing I´d do in a riot, unless I was motivated.
Could be the whole thing stinks so bad, the US is willing to take the heat and swallow the consequences, along with England and a few others. Just to cover the smell.

[Jeepin_rebel]

......you better make it home safe, ya got me?


Kris
Kris Ok OK ill take that as an order.lol you better be carefull out there also. Be cautious of EVERYTHING. I understand about the OPSEC. Be safe and thx

Ryan

[8Mud]

About all I can do for you guys, is offer moral support and worry alot. What Jeepin_Rebel said, about being cautious of Everything, sounds like good advice. Paranoia is a survival trait, stay sharp, stay aware, listen to your instincts. Get home safe.

[ladywolf]

8mud, no prob, after all....i got a cherokee i need to work on, and who better to help me than everyone here:D?


Kris

[Jeepin_rebel]

About all I can do for you guys, is offer moral support and worry alot. What Jeepin_Rebel said, about being cautious of Everything, sounds like good advice. Paranoia is a survival trait, stay sharp, stay aware, listen to your instincts. Get home safe.
Trust me its not paranoia. They have stuffed explosives in dead animals and almost anything else you can think of. They also like to drive into the covoy and start shootin at everything. Not good. so like i said its not paranoia i have been outside the whire more than most on my camp. Mostly for things that yall really wouldnt want to know about.

Ryan

[ladywolf]

jeepin, believe me, i know......i've gunned, drove, and rode......not fun....let me gun or let me drive, one or the other....i hate bein a pax. i have friends who are EOD and they've seen all types of crazy stuff......good thing i'm not EOD......yikes. i much prefer working on aircraft.


Kris

[8Mud]

I was refering to paranoia as an attitude, not meaning it as imagination. TC´d a M-88 tank recovery vehicle in Nam, I was the guy that went out and towed them in, when they´d run over a mine or got RPG´d. Always hoping, there wasn´t a second mine or an ambush, while sitting on 400 gallons of MoGas (not diesel). Wishing I could look in all directions at once. We used to call it, a severe pucker factor, don´t know what you guys call it.

[ladywolf]

mud we call it the same thing:D i have experienced the severe pucker factor (only i was stuck in downtown baghdad durin rush hour) not a whole lot of fun....but then again scarin the heebie jeebies outta iraqi's when you are bomibng through a fish market at 50mph w/ no room on either side is fun, especially when yr also scaring the higher echelon riding in the vehicles behind ya! oh the fun i have bein a country, jeep lovin bumpkin!

[aspera]

[QUOTE=8Mud]The rule of law and/or the Geniva convention, only really works, if it´s respected by both sides of a conflict.
QUOTE]

That could easily be spun around and pointed at the current administration. They claim that the Geneva Convention only applies to enemy states, not terrorist or rebels. They also seem to pick and choose what laws they want to use, where, and on whom. That doesn't sound like respect for the law. The U.S. Attorney General (the top law dude in the land) nearly got a citation for contempt of Congress, recently. He pretty much stonewalled and tried to make stuff up.

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=a7STpDlieNrY&refer=us

The best policy is to treat Iraqi prisoners well and hope for the best. Otherwise you can treat them like crap and have no hope at all that U.S. prisoners will be treated well.

[aspera]

http://www.fire-ashcroft.org/

This is a good read, actually.

I like these parts:

"...For example, of course the obvious, Osama bin Laden remains at large."

"....The government agency that bears the name of justice has yet to deliver the justice for the victims of the worst mass murder in this nation’s history."

"....We need checks and balances. As much as gone wrong that you stubbornly refuse to admit. For this democratic republic to work, we need openness and accountability."