Seriously considering Front leaf spring Set-up after today...Please read!!

[woodkrawler]

first of all im a noob on here, been on JU and POR for quite sometime but this is my first post here....i wanted to say "what up" im no stranger to XJs, i've had my XJ since i turned 16 and its seen a lot of progression since the days of 3" and 31s, its now on its 4th suspension system and 4th different height...with plenty of war wounds to prove it!! anyways on to my post...........

so i've read about everybody troubles with rockkrawler a i've had the kit on my 91 since november and have had no problems, until today!! today my torque arm broke. the arm accually tore away from the bushing end, leaving a perfectly good weld. there were no problems with the weld, the arm tore away in one loud pop. this left the torque arm dangling and the pinion rotated up and everything out of order up front. luckly i was in the parking lot getting ready to leave and not going 65 down the interstate....thats a scary thought!! they are sending me a new torque are free of charge, guess they were afraid i would sue, Ill be the first to say they were really nice about it and no questions asked they are overnighting me the new arm. Thats some of the best customer service i have every recieved, so they get an A+ in that category but not in the torque arm set-up category.

reguardless of the new arm i don't want to put my life in that kindof danger again. luckly i was just in the parking lot when it happened this time.

so i have two options....stick with the coils or go to leafs. after seeing a few rigs like Jeep94xj's rig and some others i think really want to do a front leaf set-up. i may be very naive but it really didn't look all that hard. i have decent fabbing skills and i think i can pull it off. my only real difference is im still going to run my hp 30 in the front(i just regeared it and am on a college budget so its the d30 for now) and im going to try to stay around 8" to run 37 mtrs.

speaking on a basic level it looks as though i just need to beef up the frame with looks to be 3/16 or 1/4" plate at the mounting points, get some perches, cut off my old bracketry and add some leafs.(keep in mind this is the simple version) but for now i would just like to hear some opinions and suggestions about what to do, how to do it, what springs to use, etc...sorry to be so long but i wanted to give you guys(and girls) my background and maybe get some help with this when i have questions....i would really appriciate it!! i know that Jeep94xj has a good write up are there anyothers? also he used the rancho 44044s, which gave him 9-10" those are nice but i don't really want to be that high..like i stated before i would like to right around 8"...what are some other good springs i coudl use for this set-up? the RE YJ SOA springs possibly?? Pics would be great too...

PLEASE don't take this the wrong way, im not trashing Rockkrawler in any way im just stating what happened and how i and anyone in my jeep or on the road around me could have been seriously hurt.

thanx
lincoln

[RCP Phx]

Thats one thing Ive never understood about that kit.Why not use both "Factory" upper mounts particularly for on-road use and strength.You can always "disco" one side if you feel that you have a binding issue off-road!

[Matt]

Why not beef up the arms they send you right off the bat and possibly make a wristed arm for the other side - that way you can pin it for the street and let it flex on the trail...

The loading of that arm is much greater than you think at low speeds and stop and go... I run a triangulated 3 link up front and both times the 3 link has failed it has been at very slow speeds but once under heavy braking and once trying to back out of a nasty hole...

The first time while still in motion caused a lot of collateral damage at the time of failure. The second time the heim just went POP! and I knew it was done - however the "fit really hit the shan" when the winch cable we were using to hold the axle in broke and the whole deal dumped out while coming off a 2 ft ledge :( It made a mess...

The moral of the story is that I switched to a bushing instead of a heim and I carry a spare stub shaft for the 3rd link (small trailer spindle with a bushing on the end) That way if I bust the first one (which would require shearing the bolt or the steel collar +poly bushing) I have a backup to get me out...

Unfortunately your torque arm is likely very large and does not fit in the glove box like mine does :D But a spare arm may be in order too (just cobble your old one back together and gusset it)

All in all I would stick to coils ;)

Matt

PS - I have the same XJ as yours 91' Briarwood - what color was or is yours? green (mine), white, or blue...

[Economos]

Lincoln, sorry to hear about the carnage bro. I think an excellent place for you to get some info on a leaf swap would be here (http://www.rightcoastcrawler.com/billaVista/Leafspring_conversion/leafs.htm). I'm sure Jeep94XJ will chime in as well as that guy from Georgia that has Waggy axles, 37" MT/Rs and front leafs. HTH man.

[Moto]

Going to 37"s on a D30?? I dunno if the torque arm is going to be your biggest problem. I can't imagine that your axle is going to enjoy turning 37's.

[Economos]

Originally posted by Matt
Why not beef up the arms they send you right off the bat and possibly make a wristed arm for the other side - that way you can pin it for the street and let it flex on the trail...


And I stand by what Matt suggested. You could MUCH easier either beef up the RK arms or simply use it as a template and make some out of heavy duty DOM and use Johnny-Joints and bushings for a solid solution. I'd stick with coils if it was me...

[XJoachim]

Second that, connect a second arm to the axle and you'll be safe.

There is a lot of momentum under breaking and especially off road and i can't imagine how a D30 could withstand the forces (even if the single arm remains intact) that occur while wheeling. The tubes are twisting in the center section (especially the right axle tube) and will break sooner or later. It will twist with a second arm too but in a controlled way.

I'm running 38.5s on a D30 and if you do serious wheeling the D30 will give up to those twisting forces if just one arm is used.

Connect at least a second arm to the axle and stay with the coils.

[woodkrawler]

first off thanx for all the good suggestions and opinions. one of my options was to use a 4th control arm on-road and remove it off-road. the reason i like the leaf idea is the simplicity of the leafs, once you get them underthere of course. im just tired of dealing with all the issues that arise from coils, trac-bar, control arms, etc.... i feel like a leaf spring set-up would be a lot stouter and safer. it just seems that leafs are solid, they are bolted to the frame and the axle,where a coil set-up is always moving(hope that makes sense).

as for the d30, yeah i have addressed that problem. im going to have to run it for now cause i just regeared, no knowing this was going to happen, and i don't have a lot of $$. ill just have to go easy on the skinny pedal.

anybody know anything about the RE YJ SOA springs??? how long are they? how much lift? RE states that they give 7" on a YJ, would they be roughly the same on an XJ?

thanx
lincoln

[Neil]

I think that the leafs are simpler too. But having been off road with even a short arm kit I can see how much more the front coils flex than the rear leafs. I was even thinking of going to the rear coils on my next lift.

[CRASH]

You may think leafs are great and simple and all, until.....
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.......you experience a really healthy dose of simultaneous front and rear spring wrap on a steep climb. It's enough to make one soil his panties.

CRASH (runner of two upper control arms, and happy about it!)

[ChuckD]

Originally posted by Neil
I think that the leafs are simpler too. But having been off road with even a short arm kit I can see how much more the front coils flex than the rear leafs. I was even thinking of going to the rear coils on my next lift.

When have you ever really wheeled your XJ, I have seen it parked next to your house more then anything. :D :moon:

Rear springs, you can't even get your fenders trimmed.

[woodkrawler]

At 8"+ lift on the xj i feel like the coils are very unstable, maybe its because of the RK kit, but it just seems like the leafs would tighten everything up and be solid....just my $.02

thanx for the replies and opinions...keep em comin'

lincoln

[XJoachim]

If you feel the coils are unstable go coilover but going to leafs you're losing a lot of flex in front.

[jeep94xj]

Originally posted by Neil
I think that the leafs are simpler too. But having been off road with even a short arm kit I can see how much more the front coils flex than the rear leafs. I was even thinking of going to the rear coils on my next lift.
Leaf's don't flex? This is with shocks that are too short.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid52/p754b5ca8b2bc04fee1f7c0c1db465666/fc981425.jpg
And no matter what you fix on the RK kit, something else will break. And they may give you good service for a while, but eventually that will change. BTW, woodkrawler, pm'ed you at JU. :D

[JnJ]

Can someone tell me what exact material they use in their upper arm (torque arm)?

[woodkrawler]

JnJ,

the torque arm and long arms are made from 1" solid bar stock. they are tuff, maybe too tuff for the bushing ends.

lincoln

[JnJ]

Ok, so is this solid "rod" tapped? He mentioned it broke at a weld leading me to assume there was a weld bung on the end. Yes, no?

[yellowxj]

I am almost finished converting my xj to leafs in the front. I used the yj pads from MORE and blasted the four link parts off my d30. I thought about using a 44 up front but hear the 30 can be almost as strong with better u-joints. The leafs flex great and the ride is better than my coils were. I used a pair of used 4" wrangler springs up front. Clears the 35's very well. Followed closely bills plan. Some one already linked you the site. Just have to gusset my front shackle mounts tomorrow just to feel extra safe. The leaf spring conversion was cheap and didnt take a lot of skill.


http://home.earthlink.net/~michtravhp/index.html

I've got a few pics some where in there. Still fine tuning the steering. Just put a 8.8 from a 89 lincoln mark 7 in the rear and still have to put on the rear shocks. And put in the new gears. I say do it. I didnt cut any of my old mount stuff off the xj so if I ever felt the need to go back to coils all I have to do is get a new front axle and bolt it all back together. do it do it do it do it

[COXJ]

so the torq arm weld broke were it welds to the big ass polley bushing? not the actual brackets or anney thing? i have this kit and am currious if i need to make a new upper arm. have you run it to the problum of the upper arm is to long even when at its shortest to get caster and camber spot on?

Will

[woodkrawler]

the bushing end simply tore off the torque arm....the weld held fine the torque arm tore away from the bushing end almost like opening up a can...

yellowxj,

im going to get started this weekend hopefully!!

thanx for all the replies
lincoln

[jeep94xj]

Originally posted by COXJ
so the torq arm weld broke were it welds to the big ass polley bushing? not the actual brackets or anney thing? i have this kit and am currious if i need to make a new upper arm. have you run it to the problum of the upper arm is to long even when at its shortest to get caster and camber spot on?

Will
When my track bar broke, it happened on the bushing end just outside of the welds. Bassically what it comes down to is the heat required to burn the thin bushing end onto the heavy rod causes the thin metal to get weak. I think a somewhat better solution to fix this before it happens would br to "strap" the bushing ends with more metal and weld it further up on the arm. My torque arm bracket ripped off the axle mount because of the same type of situation. Bracket was heavy material, factory coil seat/shock mount was thinner material. What RK fails to tell people is that serious reinforcing should be done when using their kits.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid54/p5650eab0676116abad0ed7dccc50c340/fc8a12cc.jpg

[XJHOX]

Not to make this a RK bash, but we recently intalled the kit in a TJ and the first time out the lower control arm ripped right off! Bent the axle housing, broke both shocks, and when the axle came back it pushed the driveshaft so far into the case it cracked the transfer case housing. Yes they had no problem fixing the problem but they failed to tell us that they have a upgrade mount to weld on to prevent this from happing. They never once said anything about it when he bought the kit. I'm really starting to think about leafs myself!

[JnJ]

Originally posted by jeep94xj
Bassically what it comes down to is the heat required to burn the thin bushing end onto the heavy rod causes the thin metal to get weak.

I agree with this and also feel that the bushing might not allow enough flex to handle the twisting forces. I'd replace it with JJs or a heim.

[hankgaston]

as for my $.o2...coils willl give you more flex, that's a fact.....they are lined up vertical, wheras leafs are horizontal. you may have a good point about stability. Maybe some disconnects could solve your problem? I got sent here by a guy named dave. Red jeep in a-town. Said you might have some info on clubs up here. I ain't got the biggest rig but I love to drive. Any info would be appreciated. HG58404@appstate.edu. Thanks, look forward to some rides.
-Hank

[vintagespeed]

Properly setup leafs will flex just as well as coils unless you're running over a 14" long shock? Doubt it. As to the mount breaking, any numbnuts hack like myself would question welding 1" solid stock to anything thinner. I mean if you're not burning through the smaller stuff then you're not penetrating the 1" solid bar........ I would send all the RK crap back & let them do their own R & D. :D

[Colorado Red]

I have the RK 6.5" kit...with ACOS in the front for about 9.5". Mine also feels a little unstable, but I'm upgrading to 8" Skyjacker coils to try and stiffen it up.

As for the welds...they hold great! My trac bar broke into 4 peices on the Golden Crack...and not a single weld broke, just the weld pulled out of the metal. It looked crazy! I had Moab Off Road do a little welding work to the scraps and it looks tougher than ever. RK was going to send a new one, but wanted the old one back..I kept the old one!
Does this type of thing happen to other brands...or does RK need to revamp the way they weld this stuff??
-Mike

[Uglygreenxj]

I will have to agree with Vintage, If the weld itself stayed intact on one of the two components, then it had not properly penetrated the other component and created a "good weld". It is far easier to create a "good looking weld". One does'nt neccesarily imply the other!

[Spooky]

Woodkrawler I had the tourqe arm bracket rip off after I first had the kit installed due to my hiring an incompetent welder. I was doing 55 and nearly ran over a little old lady before winding up in a ditch. I uderstand completly why you want to ditch the kit and have more points of attachment to the axle and frame.

In every picture of every failure I have seen where a bushing sleeve riped in a RK kit it was in the host metal of the sleeve with no damage to the weld. If I'm undrstanding what you are saying the sleeve ripped in half not the whole sleeve ripping away from the bar stock. Correct? So it ripped in the weakest part of the arm.

The bar stock is actually 1 1/4".

I'm converting my xj back to a 5 link and modifying the RK LCA's. I'm sleeving my LCAs with DOM tubing and replacing the bushing ends with RE superflex joints. I'm having a set of UCA drop brackets built that weld onto the uniframe where the factory LCA mounts were and will be running JKS uppers(if they ever get off of backorder) with curries axle mouted JJ's. Iv'e already replaced the RK track bar with RE's HD track bar bracket and TB brace.

[woodkrawler]

Spooky,

i hear ya man about that torque arm!! very scary!!!!!!!! im just fortunate that i was in the parking lot....God was definately looking out for me on that one! anyways a 5 link is great i was just wanting to do something different so i chose the leaf path. so far i love the leafs...they are great, im still trying to dial them in just right, but you know its a jeep so its always something...haha. anyways good luck with the 5 link..

lincoln

[Spooky]

Sorry I didnt notice the date. I thought it was a new post.