Is it time to take down your flag?

[TC]

There's a lot of tattered and faded American flags hanging in front of homes that need to come down. I guess most of those who have them in this condition just don't realize how bad they look. This is just a friendly reminder to take a look at Old Glory out front to see if it's time to replace her. TC

[Rev Den]

Guilty.

Replaced.

Thanks for the reminder,
Rev

[Beezil]

No doubt.

I hope this doesn't come off sounding self-congratulatory, but I was a'flag flyin' long before 9-11. My flag waves ILLUMINATED at night, and is replaced as soon as the blue begins to fade. I don't think I've ever waved a torn flag.

One thing that bugs me as much as tattered flags, is the folks that display their flags vertically THE WRONG WAY.

Folks, the star field belongs ON THE LEFT as viewed from the outside of a building. If you have the flag displayed in a window where it can be visible on both sides, it is best dso that the star field is on the left as viewed from the exterior.

People jumped on the band-wagon after 9-11 on my block and began displaying flags (hey, its a good thing!) mostly vertically, the wrong way. I wrote them nice notes giving them a heads-up, and I never expected that my notes would be recieved so well, ALL the homes I left notes for, had their flags corrected by the next day. Unexpected, and nice people care.

other than that, non-illuminated flags (at night) bug me as much as torn ones do......

[Wonk]

As an added note to this post, please be sure to "retire" your old flag appropriatly. If you do not know how to do this, might I suggest you take it to someone who does. Your local VFW will do it or you might want to contact your local BoyScouts of America council, they can also retire it properly. If you have never seen a ceremony to retire our flag, do yourself a favor and go to one of these ceremonies. They can be a very moving tribute to what our flag stands for.

[Beezil]

Is there such a thing as DIY flag de-commisioning?

is there a respectable way to do it yourself?

[Wonk]

Title 36, Section 176 US Code states:

(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting
emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by
burning.

This is not the entire content of this Title.

You can find a lot of info on the internet by doing a search under US Flag retirement. There are a lot of sights with ceremonies that can be done. Several Boy Scout Troops have web pages with information and scripts for different ceremonies. A private retirement, I would think, could be any that you want as long as dignified. I think it should be done with others that would benefit and learn from the ceremony.

I personally have done private ceremonies by quietly, respectfully, and reverently building a small fire on which I placed a flag with thoughts and prayers for those who have sacrificed in it's name followed by burrying the ashes in an appropriate manner.

[Eagle]

All true. In most places, the VFW will accept flags and dispose of them properly. In my little burg it's been difficult to figure out who to contact, though. I still have the faded flag that my father flew for many years. It is threadbare and faded, but not torn, but I felt it was time to retire it honorably. It has been folded in the prescribed triangular fold and I'm keeping it until I either find out who will accept it for proper disposal, or I give up and do it myself.

Beezil is correct about flag ettiquette. The flag should always be displayed at what is called "the flag's right," which means to the right as if you were standing behind the flag looking out toward whoever is expected to view it.

Other countries fly their flags 24/7. The American flag is supposed to be flown dawn to dusk, unless artificially illuminated at night.

[5-90]

Also, do not forget to strike the flag in inclement weather, unless it is specified as an "All-Weather" flag AND is properly illuminated, or is sheltered and illuminated, as I recall.

The best source for information is a lookup at house.gov for Title 4, United States Code. This is the section that concerns itself with etiquette of the Flag, Great Seal, and other national Ensigns. It also describes when to fly the flag at half-mast, mourning streamers for when you cannot, and other stuff that we always forget...

5-90

[MistWolf]

Many flags should be retired but not necessarily disposed of. The Star Spangled Banner, the flag that inspired the words to our national anthem is old and battered but shouldn't be destroyed. Many flags that flew during fierce battles are shot to pieces, the flag they found buried in the rubble of the Twin Towers is shredded, yet was flown with dignity during a Yankees home game.

A flag flown for years with pride by ones' father should be kept as a treasured keepsake. It's ok to find a display case for it and pass it on to your children

[woody]

I agree! Ratty looking flags bum me out, unless they have history, and improperly displayed ones aren't cool. (backwards or unlit at night) Upside down is OK I suppose for cause - I flew my 13 star colonial flag that way when the 'assault weapon ban' was enacted....and ordered up a pile of highcap mags for my toys

I donated a flag for our lab and helped build a pole on Sept 10th, 2002. I'd like to donate a solar powered spotlight for it next...not enough folks retrieve the colors at COB.

Self de-commisioning a flag is OK in my book, as long as it's done properly and solemnly.

A lot of good folks gave and are giving our nation their all for it - honor them by properly conducting it's care & handling.

:patriot:

thanks

[Rev Den]

Speaking of ragged old flags...

http://www.alighthouse.com/flag.htm

[Economos]

Beez, why is the star field displayed on the left-hand side if the flag is hung vertically? It looks to me like it's backwards when displayed in this mannar.

:confused:

[Beezil]

I dunno its just the way it supposed to be. Maybe someone knows the real history of it.....

once you get used to knowing the way its supposed to be, the wrong way looks completely retarded....

the other night Hoosiers (the movie with gene hackman) was on....EVERY SCENE where there is an american flag hanging in the gym was the wrong way.....Actually, there is no scene where I noticed the flag hanging the right way.

Melinda had to switch to a different channel cause I bitched too much about it. IIRC correctly, we ended up watching some stupid chick movie instead.....BONUS!

[Eagle]

Originally posted by Economos
Beez, why is the star field displayed on the left-hand side if the flag is hung vertically?

Because that's the "flag's right"

The star field is also displayed on the left (as we look at it from the street) when the flag is horizontal. Again, it's the flag's right, which means to the right if you were standing behind the flag looking out toward whoever is supposed to be viewing the flag.

The only exception is the flag patch on our soldiers' right shoulders. Those have the star field on the right as we view them. The reason was explained as having to do with an old-fashioned flag being carried into battle on a pole. The flag would float back away from the enemy as the flag advanced, so viewed by an advancing soldier from the flag's left side the star field would be to the left, but viewed by an advancing soldier to the right of the flag, the field would be on the right. So, in the expectation that American soldiers always advance, they put the flag on the right shoulder so it is oriented correctly to mimic an advancing battle flag.

[Economos]

Beez, Eagle - thanks for the education.

[Wonk]

Eagle

Thanks for that bit of wisdom, I was unaware of it. And I agree 100% with MistWolf, Eagle, DO NOT retire your fathers flag. Buy or have someone make you a tri-cornered display case and keep it in the family for generations to come, along with any history of the man who proudly displayed it and why. I will bequeath the flag that draped my fathers casket to my only son when I die, and I hope he will keep it for his lifetime also.

[5-90]

Remember that the right-hand side is the "position of Honour" - if you see military people walking about in uniform, rank should increase as you scan to the line's own right (your left, as you look.) For instance, a non-com and a captain walking down the sidewalk would have the captain to the right of the sergeant, and the captain would also be a half-step ahead.

The blue field is a reference for the top of the flag, and is therefore kept its own right or its own top.

When displayed in a group, the US Flag belongs at the top or to its own right. It may be displayed at the top of the staff, elevated at the right end of the line, or may also be displayed in a "fan" pattern with the Ensign in the centre and elevated slightly above all the rest.

Flying the flag inverted is a signal of distress. Striking the colours at sea and inverting them is a signal to any observer, and can also be used to indicate a field post in distress if it is expected to be observed by someone in a position to offer reinforcement. An inverted flag is equivalent to broadcasting "Mayday" on the radio.

Remember that Honours bestowed by position are relative to the object/person honoured - it may look backwards to you, but it is simply a matter of perspective....

I explained this to my wife recently, and she noted - correctly - that I always have her to my right, but the reason for that is twofold. I also like to keep my left hand open, being left-handed....

5-90

[GreenGhost]

On a similar note to Eagle's last one: Flag emblems on cars (planes, and other vehicles) should have the blue field toward the front of the vehicle. This gives the appearance of the wind carrying the flag as it would on a flag pole with the stripes trailing.

[5-90]

Another note on vehicular display - the flag should be flown form a mast on the right fender of the vehicle. Note where AMC put the antennae for our radios...

5-90

[TC]

Great info on the vehicular display, I've never ran across a right side decal so I've never put on on the pass side of anyting I drive, it just wouldn't look right. The local Boy Scout Troop here collects flags for proper disposal from time to time, they even have one a year at the Elementary School to educate the kids about proper flag etiquette.
Eagle, I agree with the others about your fathers flag, I can't think of a better memento to preserve the memory of a loved one, sounds really neat. TC

[Eagle]

Nice thoughts, guys, but the flag to which I refer is just a small five-and-dime flag that my father flew from the garage on holidays when he was alive. It has no historic significance. The flag the veterans' administration gave the family when my father died somehow ended up in my brother's possession, and has been cased.

[Mike in NJ]

TC,

Right-side decals do exist (although I can't think of a source right now). All of our emergency vehicles have them - check with your local VFD. When my wife built me some wooden flag panels to put on my roof rack, I made sure that the passenger side one was blue field forward.

BTW, if you are going to display one flag from the from the bumper of your vehicle - continue the flag's "own right" rule. That flag (fabric or panel) should be mounted on the passenger side.

Mike in NJ :patriot:

[Beezil]

Folks who would like to hold onto their flags for sentimental value should check out on the internet the CORRECT way to fold the flag into the "patroits hat" shape.

pretty neat.

[GreenGhost]

Did a search for "right side amercian flag stickers" on google and got plenty of sources. Here's one:

http://www.efreedomproducts.com/amflagdec.html

[Slip Kid]

I was a Boy Scout up untill last year. (they kick you out at 18)

They always told us that you could burn them at a ceremony. I've never done this though, as an alternative they always said you can put them in the trash, as long as the flag is ceremonialy folded the proper way, and wrapped in somthing.

[Ed A. Stevens]

Call the VFW or American Legion about the flag needing disposal, and visit the local meeting hall to deliver it (yes, that bar/saloon you have been avoiding all your life). I don't know if you have ever thought about the welcome you might receive visiting a VFW hall, but it may surprise you. The people who frequent the Hall may be worth your attention.

I too never visited a VFW hall in my younger days (except for a wedding and a few community meetings when I lived in a very small town) because I am not a Veteran. When I was old enough to legally drink, the anti-Vietnam stigma was strong enough to discourage a visit (that and the threat of getting my ass kicked ;) from some mean hombre "Eagle" character, for being ignorant about war).

When I traveled overseas, however, (specifically in South Africa, Australia and New Zealand), I found the various Veterans meeting halls are popular places in the community and usually granted special sales permits (alcohol sales, I'll admit what I was looking for). This liberal sales policy made these places a common community forum for local affairs (and a great place to have a drink). I seldom found a contrary anti-American soul in these halls. I never found anyone who judged me inferior for not participating in active Armed Service. The experience was quite different from the popular culture reputation these organizations receive here in the USA.

When I returned home I found the same warm attitude, and welcome, visiting the VFW hall in my old desert hometown (the same place I avoided except for the wedding and meetings).

Hindsight makes experience easy, and when I was very young the VFW and American Legion membership were always visible in the community, and this visible community participation dropped off after the Vietnam war (in my community). I have learned to believe these meeting halls were unfairly avoided after the Vietnam conflict, and unfairly lost much of their valuable positive influence on the community (in contrast to the healthy influence these halls have on community life in other countries). I don't know if stigmatizing the VFW was an intended result of the anti-Vietnam activist agenda, but the protestors succeeded in discounting a major positive community influence (along with the resource of experience within the VFW and American Legion).

It is troubling (to me) to realize that it took viewing my country's culture from half way around the world, from countries with no anti-Vietnam cultural baggage, to understand how popular culture unfairly minimized the influence of Veterans in our community since Vietnam (and organizations like the VFW). These folks will help you care for your flag, but they will also help you care for the community.

[Wonk]

[as an alternative they always said you can put them in the trash, as long as the flag is ceremonialy folded the proper way, and wrapped in somthing.]

I don't know were your Scoutmaster got his information, but I strongly disagree with putting them in the trash, no matter how they are folded and wrapped. The amount of time expended to take them to the VFW, Legion, or your local BSA District office is minimal and Old Glory is definitly worth what time it would take you.

Wank

[Skorpyo]

Also note that just because the "Gold Fringed Flag looks pretty" doesn't mean you should buy and display it. A fringed flag is NOT a representation of symbol of the union of states that is America. Commonly referred to as a "Battle Flag", it is a sanctioned flag reserved for use by the General of the Army over military headquarters and courts of military law.

Unfortunately as commander in chief, the President is therefore able to employ the flag to denote a jurisdiction of the military. Since some presidents in the past lived civilian lives, the usage of the flag has become bastardized as it appealed to politicians for use as a backdrop in photographs. Several interpretations of the acceptable use and adornment of the American flag have led to missuse of this flag as well.

Did your school, local courthouse or even state capital display a gold fringed flag? If so they are in essence declaring the site as a military jurisdiction.

I'm not saying you've broken the law if you're using a gold fringed flag, but do keep in mind what the true symbolism of such a flag means, and please consider purchasing an appropriate flag.

Just a thought that came to mind when I walked past our supply office and noted they had a battle flag in the storage area for ceremonies.

Here's a link to a site that discusses the Battle Flag (http://www.banned-books.com/truth-seeker/1994archive/121_5/ts215b.html)

[Slip Kid]

Oh I didn't trust my scoutmaster either. assistant acually. I've never witnessed either meathod being practiced. We always saved them untill that time of the year, when we'd take them to summer camp (camp drake) and they would take them at the office. dunno what they did with them, but they said they were burned individually. I think OA did it. I never really was very interested in personally destroying a flag, torn or not.

I'll check what it says in the handbook tonight

[Dennis]

Skorpyo,
The fringe restriction only applies to flags used within the United States Army, and this is only a custom, no one will be court-marshalled for having a gold fringed flag. Civilians, other government agencies, and other military services are not restricted in any form from having gold fringe on their flags. However, fringe should only be used on battle flags as you stated, or indoor only flags.

posted below is taken from the CRS Report for Congress; The United States Flag: Federal Law Relating to Display and Associated Questions:

Ornaments on Flag Staffs, Fringes on Flag

The Flag Code is silent as to ornaments (finials) for flagstaffs. We know of no law or regulation which restricts the use of a finial on the staff. The eagle finial is used not only by the President, the Vice-President, and many other federal agencies, but also by many civilian organizations and private citizens. The selection of the type finial used is a matter of preference of the individual or organization. The placing of a fringe on the flag is optional with the person or organization, and no Act of Congress or Executive Order either requires or prohibits the practice.
Fringe is used on indoor flags only, as fringe on flags used outdoors would deterioraterapidly. The fringe on a flag is considered an "honorable enrichment only" and its official use by the Army dates from 1895. A 1925 Attorney General’s Opinion states:

The fringe does not appear to be regarded as an integral part of the flag, and its presence cannot be said to constitute an unauthorized addition to the design prescribed by statute. An external fringe is to be distinguished from letters, words, or emblematic designs printed or superimposed upon the body of the flag itself. Under the law, such additions might be open to objection as unauthorized; but the same is not necessarily true of the fringe.


Semper Fi,
Dennis

[K9Cop]

Originally posted by Beezil
Folks, the star field belongs ON THE LEFT as viewed from the outside of a building. If you have the flag displayed in a window where it can be visible on both sides, it is best dso that the star field is on the left as viewed from the exterior.


Actually not to sound like an @ss, but when a flag is flown vertically on a building and the street primarily runs east-west, the union will be at the top and to the north. If the street runs north-south, display union at the top and to the east. Just looking out for the flag. Info via Air Force Pamphlet 35-2241 vol 1 pg. 103. I don't think this is just an Air Force thing, but it may be.:confused: Just trying to help.

[Eagle]

Originally posted by K9Cop
Actually not to sound like an @ss, but when a flag is flown vertically on a building and the street primarily runs east-west, the union will be at the top and to the north. If the street runs north-south, display union at the top and to the east. Just looking out for the flag. Info via Air Force Pamphlet 35-2241 vol 1 pg. 103. I don't think this is just an Air Force thing, but it may be.:confused: Just trying to help.

This is not just an Air Force thing, it is part of flag ettiquette ... but you're not interpreting it correctly.

When a flag is flown (draped) on the face of a building, such that it cannot be seen from the rear, only from the street or "outside," the applicable rule is "Flag's Right." The star field belongs on the upper right as viewed from behind the flag looking out toward the observer.

The orientation to which you refer is applicable in the case of a flag hung from a cable which runs across a street or open space, such that the flag can be viewed from either side.

[Beezil]

thanks eagle....I was about to say the same thing.....

my #1 pet peeve next to folks flying thier flag un-illuminated at night.....

damn, how the hell did anyone find this thread????

this things dates back to last spring!

[K9Cop]

:doh:
After doing more research (which I should have done before jumping into a post) I read the paragraph above what I originally read and it is when it is over a street ie on a wire. Earlier all I saw was "When hung vertically" so I read that. I'm usually more careful when reading, but I missed it. Sorry about that...:cheers:

Anyway, I found this thread, when I was searching for "Decals" of all things. I am looking for some decal still. Pfunk has some good ones from JU, but I want something different and just can't find it.
:patriot:

[Bent]

:us: Still flying,Still lit at night.

[Beezil]

hey! that's quite alright!

I think its cool there's a certain percent of the population that minds the flag and looks out for it!

and you were doing just that!

the way I was decribing it, and the way you were decribing the way the flag hangs in a certain situation are both correct, we just got goofed on the situation part, and that fine, cause the info is still out there, and there's nothing wrong with bringing this thread to the top.....

[Loose_Nuts_Enterprises]

What if hte flag is on one of those flag holder do-dads on the front of your garage where it is half way between horizontal and vertical? I know this sort of sounds smart assed, but our family business has used the flag like this for our 'open sign.' It stays on the wooden pole, but is secured indoors every night.

Dan

[RichP]

Who makes a decent priced flag pole. I've wanted to put one in my side yard for a few years now but the ones I looked at that were over 18 ft tall were in the $400 range.

[Beezil]

dan, in that sitaution the flag just hangs. all the talk about when the flag is vertical was meaning when it is draped on a wall so it is visible on one side only.....stars on the left if the flag is hung vertically draped in a window, stars on the left as it is viewed from the outside.

[sbxj]

also...isn't it true that the American Flag, at least in this Country should always be displayed above any other flag (state flag included) if displayed together?

[K9Cop]

Yes, you are correct. I think this was discussed earlier in this thread. When displayed with other flags it must be to the viewer's far left or it can be centered as long as it is higher than all other flags. Even at overseas bases where that country's flag flys to the viewer's right, the American flag is raised first and is taken down last.

One thing that I have seen, that really gets to me, is when the flag is put at half staff some people tend to leave the other flags at normal height ie state flags, POW flags, or business flags. This is not correct. As a sign of respect, the other flags should be taken down completely or lowered to half staff as well. Normally they should just be taken down all together. Are you listening McDonalds????? No flag will ever fly higher or to the viewers left of Old Glory!!!!!!!!!!!

[Beezil]

hey, if you see something like that and its not right, find the manager! especially if you are in uniform, that would be pretty damn funny!