I need design advice! *long* :mad:

[JeepFreak21]

I'm tryin' to get these friggin' long arms done and I'm at the point where I'm too frustrated to think clearly. After some advice from ppl on this (and another) board, I decided to try to avoid cutting off the cast spring perch.
I have the tubing, and I have 2 RE joints for the chassis side. I also have (4) 3" wide poly bushings that I was going to use on the axle side. I see now that they're less than ideal for the top mounts. So... I'm thinking I'll run them on the bottom and becase of extremely limited space on the driver's side, I'm about ready to go out and buy 2 hiems, tube adapters, jam nuts, misalignment washers, etc to make the passenger side upper part out of; then just run one upper on the passenger side (like JnJ).
I really don't wanna drop the cash to do both sides with hiems (which, I think, would be all I have room for on the driver's side), but I may try that if one upper behaves badly.
What would you do?
(The "bumpstops" are in the place where the springs need to go.)
http://www.xjdb.com/temp/lahelp01.JPG
http://www.xjdb.com/temp/lahelp02.JPG
http://www.xjdb.com/temp/lahelp03.JPG
http://www.xjdb.com/temp/lahelp04.JPG
Thanks!
Billy :(

[csudman]

Obviously this is not to scale. But It should get you back on course. The further in (closer to the center of the axle) you make your uppers the more bind will occur. But thats more work for the trackbar to do.

With all that said. I don't think you even need to triangulate your uppers. W/ the track bar. Trianglulation isn't nessisary. Just run the uppers directly over the loweres. Make one simple braket for each side and go w/ it.
http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/106426/2.jpg
Hope Ive helped some.

[JeepFreak21]

Obviously this is not to scale. But It should get you back on course. The further in (closer to the center of the axle) you make your uppers the more bind will occur. But thats more work for the trackbar to do.

With all that said. I don't think you even need to triangulate your uppers. W/ the track bar. Trianglulation isn't nessisary. Just run the uppers directly over the loweres. Make one simple braket for each side and go w/ it.
http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/106426/2.jpg
Hope Ive helped some.


Thanks a lot! Every bit of insight is a little boost of confidence!
Billy

[CRASH]

Have you thought about where the LCA's are going to cross under the frame? Is it going to contact the frame under compression? The farther out the arms are located on the axle, the more likely they will contact the frame.

If this is not a problem, due to enough uptravel as a result of your lift height, you could get away with putting the LCA's where the vestiges of that existing Ford bracket are on the tube.

I can't remember what you told me teh other night, are you running an RE radius arm style system (similar to Brian), or a true 4 link?

CRASH

[JeepFreak21]

Have you thought about where the LCA's are going to cross under the frame? Is it going to contact the frame under compression? The farther out the arms are located on the axle, the more likely they will contact the frame.

If this is not a problem, due to enough uptravel as a result of your lift height, you could get away with putting the LCA's where the vestiges of that existing Ford bracket are on the tube.

I can't remember what you told me teh other night, are you running an RE radius arm style system (similar to Brian), or a true 4 link?

CRASH


The lowers will be fine right under the spring, but I can't get away with running them out any further. And I'm planning a RE style radius arm.

[CRASH]

The lowers will be fine right under the spring, but I can't get away with running them out any further. And I'm planning a RE style radius arm.

It might be time to think out of the box.

Have you thought of doing a rover type of linkage, with one rubber bushing in front of the axle tube and one behind, with a tube joining the two running over the top?

The problem with doing an RE styleis your wide seperation in the horizontal plane between the lowers and the uppers. This is going to cause a bunch of bushing problems as they deflect under articulation.

Mine get hosed once or twice a season, and they are operating under the designed conditions.

CRASH

[JeepFreak21]

It might be time to think out of the box.

Have you thought of doing a rover type of linkage, with one rubber bushing in front of the axle tube and one behind, with a tube joining the two running over the top?

CRASH

Honestly, I've never seen anything like that... you don't have any pics do you?

[CRASH]

Honestly, I've never seen anything like that... you don't have any pics do you?

It's a radius arm design utilizing two bushings instead of a "C" bushing like a Ford OEM design.

No pics, but you may try POR. I think there is a Rover forum over their, no?

A rover works like this, with the main arm underneath:

..O
0__0___________

The upper "O" being ther axle tube, and the lower "0" being bushings. Move the arm to the top, and you get much better clearance, Clarence. The springs reside in "cups" that are welded to the top of the control arm, much like a Ford design.

Something like:

0--0-----------------
..O
Edit: I had to add periods to get the text to format correctly.

CRASH

[Beezil]

I must start off by saying, that I've never rn a g-waggy axle before.........

and maybe the reason no one is spotted this yet, is because it isn't a problem, and I need to STFU but.....

the way csud man has the LCA locations drawn, sure makes it look to me as though those locations are gonna cause some tire-rubbage on the lca's at full lock......

how do you guys see it?

[Beezil]

heres the reason it came to mind


http://users.rcn.com/beezil/public/Arm8.JPG

i positioned my LCAs in relation to the coils INSIDE so my tires didn't rub....

I had PLENTY of room.

This was a long time ago, but I remember not having room had I lined them up with the coils, and certainly not OUTSIDE the coils.....

[JeepFreak21]

heres the reason it came to mind


http://users.rcn.com/beezil/public/Arm8.JPG

i positioned my LCAs in relation to the coils INSIDE so my tires didn't rub....

I had PLENTY of room.

This was a long time ago, but I remember not having room had I lined them up with the coils, and certainly not OUTSIDE the coils.....


Yeah, I think I'll run into that problem if I go outside the coils too far, but not right under the spring. The tire is spaced out enough passed the knuckle, especially with a 3" BS rim.

[JeepFreak21]

It's a radius arm design utilizing two bushings instead of a "C" bushing like a Ford OEM design.

No pics, but you may try POR. I think there is a Rover forum over their, no?

A rover works like this, with the main arm underneath:

..O
0__0___________

The upper "O" being ther axle tube, and the lower "0" being bushings. Move the arm to the top, and you get much better clearance, Clarence. The springs reside in "cups" that are welded to the top of the control arm, much like a Ford design.

Something like:

0--0-----------------
..O
Edit: I had to add periods to get the text to format correctly.

CRASH

Hmmm, that really intrigues me, I'm going to look into that Crash. Anybody else have an opinion on this design?

[Safari Ary]

Billy, I looked into this design extensively about 6 months ago I guess. It is a very viable option. The problems I came to were the actual fabrication of the arm(s) itself, whether to run two identical arms or just one radius arm and one regular LCA, How to make the caster adjustable without having to deal with offset bushings(how the rover guys do it predominantly). BTW, this setup is also used on Land Cruisers of the FJ80 variety(93-98 I believe). You might also consider running two identical arms and then "wristing" one of them. Also, you can decide whether or not you want to build "bridges" over the arms for the coils to sit on, or if you want to mount them adajcent to the arms. Do a search for rover radius arms, here and on POR and also maybe my user name(Ary'01xj previously on here and Arya Ebrahimi on POR). HTH

Ary

[Beezil]

the ary guy on por is a real asshat.

:laugh3:

[JnJ]

I must start off by saying, that I've never rn a g-waggy axle before.........

and maybe the reason no one is spotted this yet, is because it isn't a problem, and I need to STFU but.....

the way csud man has the LCA locations drawn, sure makes it look to me as though those locations are gonna cause some tire-rubbage on the lca's at full lock......

how do you guys see it?

I'm not sure of his excact measurements, but I put my LCA mounts right under the coil, with 3.5" BS and 35s I had a little rubbing on the lca until I adjusted the stopper out a little.


http://jeep_n_john.tripod.com/lcaaxlemount1.jpg

[csudman]

the way csud man has the LCA locations drawn, sure makes it look to me as though those locations are gonna cause some tire-rubbage on the lca's at full lock......

how do you guys see it?

Ok, I understand what you are saying, I also wrote. That this wasn't to scale and it was just an idea to get him back on track. I assumed that he would deal w/ placement issues himself beacuse that varies for every single xj. Depending on what wheel backspacing he has will greatly affect the tires rubbing at full lock. And I agree w. normal backspaced wheels that this might ne a problem. But whatever.

I also said that he should ditch the entire setup and do the radius style arm like beezil's.

Good luck man. I hope you get it worked out.

CJ

[vintagespeed]

Nice to see you've learned how to lay a bead......... :)

-jb

heres the reason it came to mind
http://users.rcn.com/beezil/public/Arm8.JPG

[4ward]

Nice to see you've learned how to lay a bead......... :)

-jb

Nice to know that axle has been gone from his jeep for 6 months :rolleyes:

[Gary E]

With all that said. I don't think you even need to triangulate your uppers. W/ the track bar. Trianglulation isn't nessisary. Just run the uppers directly over the loweres. Make one simple braket for each side and go w/ it.
http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/106426/2.jpg
Hope Ive helped some.

The triangulation will do nothing on a radius arm setup, it will only keep the axle from rotating.

Billy, I think in your case I would just run one upper on the pass side. I would also be tempted to just run poly bushings on it also, since thats what you have, I am still not a big fan of heims though. One of Zions UCAs broke on the con, it was a rustys upper set up like a RE longarm. It broke on the the trail so he took it off and drove it home that way, and I think he said it drove the same (you might pm him) and that was with rubber bushings.

I would put the driver lower as close the the center section as possible and match that distance on the other side. I would also make them level with the tube so the lowers did not hang below the tube.

[vintagespeed]

Nice to know that axle has been gone from his jeep for 6 months :rolleyes:

Well I meant since that pic was taken...... :wave1:

[JeepFreak21]

Just to keep my options open... IF I decide to weld to the top of the diff, should I:
A: Tear the whole axle apart, pull the carrier and pull the axle seals out so they don't melt
B: Fill it with fluid and turn it upside down to weld so there's less of a chance of melting seals
C: Just weld on it dry and hope I don't fry anything
D: None of the above (please explain)

Thanks, as always,
Billy

[csudman]

The triangulation will do nothing on a radius arm setup, it will only keep the axle from rotating.

Billy, I think in your case I would just run one upper on the pass side. I would also be tempted to just run poly bushings on it also, since thats what you have, I am still not a big fan of heims though. One of Zions UCAs broke on the con, it was a rustys upper set up like a RE longarm. It broke on the the trail so he took it off and drove it home that way, and I think he said it drove the same (you might pm him) and that was with rubber bushings.

I would put the driver lower as close the the center section as possible and match that distance on the other side. I would also make them level with the tube so the lowers did not hang below the tube.

I think your agreeing w/ me? In not sure, but thats what I was saying.

[Gary E]

I think your agreeing w/ me? In not sure, but thats what I was saying.


I don't think so, I thought you were saying if he moved the uppers in it would cause binding and the triangulation would keep the axle in place that the trackbar would do less or more work. I am saying you could run an uca from the right lower all the way to on top of the pumpkin and it would not do a single thing as far as keeping the axle centered. The trackbar will see the same load.

And for Billys Q I would go for C or A and definatly not B. And Possibly D, Welding to the cast on an 8.8 was pretty easy but welding to the cast on my Dana 30 was nearlly imposible with my limited skills and setup.

[JeepFreak21]

Just to keep my options open... IF I decide to weld to the top of the diff, should I:
A: Tear the whole axle apart, pull the carrier and pull the axle seals out so they don't melt
B: Fill it with fluid and turn it upside down to weld so there's less of a chance of melting seals
C: Just weld on it dry and hope I don't fry anything
D: None of the above (please explain)

Thanks, as always,
Billy


Thanks Gary...
Guys, I need some more advice on this question please.

[CRASH]

The safest way to add a UCA mount to the drivers side is to build a bridge over the top and attach the mount to that.

Barring that, you need to know what you are doing with a preheat torch and high nickel content rod. Do you have a MIG or a stick welder?

CRASH

[csudman]

I also said that he should ditch the entire setup and do the radius style arm like beezil's. CJ
I realize that Beezils old setup used both side. I was refering more to the bracket design.


I don't think so, I thought you were saying if he moved the uppers in it would cause binding and the triangulation would keep the axle in place that the trackbar would do less or more work. I am saying you could run an uca from the right lower all the way to on top of the pumpkin and it would not do a single thing as far as keeping the axle centered. The trackbar will see the same load.

I completely agree. I've got an RK long arm right now. Works well offroad. Drives like shit. Def. needs a limiting strap.

And I do think that dual triangulated dog arm uppers will add some side to side control. They would have to. Def. not enough to eliminate the T-bar. But some.

[JeepFreak21]

The safest way to add a UCA mount to the drivers side is to build a bridge over the top and attach the mount to that.

Barring that, you need to know what you are doing with a preheat torch and high nickel content rod. Do you have a MIG or a stick welder?

CRASH


The mig is quite a bit more accessable, but I could get to a stick if need be. Even if I built a bridge, there's nothing on the left side to weld to except that friggin' cast perch.
Thanks,
Billy

[CRASH]

The mig is quite a bit more accessable, but I could get to a stick if need be. Even if I built a bridge, there's nothing on the left side to weld to except that friggin' cast perch.
Thanks,
Billy

Go leaf springs or go home.....

CRASH

[CRASH]

Seriously though, you can do this with the MIG, but it takes a bit of effort. Two things you need to know:

1. That bitch needs to be cleaner than a Catholic virgin on confirmation day.

2. The weld is never going to be as strong as welding two pieces of mild steel together.

OK, so to achieve these two things I start by cleaning the area with a knotted wheel or wire brush. Once I get the paint and old petro-chemicals out of the way, I use a wire toothbrush and plenty of brake cleaner. Get it down in the pores of the metal and let it soak. This will free up the gunk, and also evaporate the water that is caught in there. Never use a grinding wheel to clean, as it actually closes the pores and traps the gunk/water inside.

OK, now to critical issue #2. You need to cut your bracket so that it follows the contours of the casting nicely, because you want to have as much welded area as possible. A bracket that was 8 inches long per side would not be excessive for this application. Think surface area. The more the better, because you are relying on it for strength.

OK, got the bracket cut and the area cleaned. Tack the bracket in posistion with your MIG. Now, time to add a bit of heat. A propane torch works just fine for this. We are trying to achieve two things at once with this heat 1) burn out any remaining gunk/water and 2) pre-heat the area so that it doesn't undergo a bunch of thermal shock when the MIG starts buzzing. It's tough to tell you how much heat to add, it's really hard to add too much with a propane powered torch, but 45 seconds to a minute for an 8 inch surface would be about right.

Now, here's where MIG diverges from stick. With a MIG and regular old ER70S-2 wire and CO2/Argon, I lay a bead on the casting right next to the bracket. It is going to provide a more flexible thermal buffer when you lay the final bead to the bracket. Don't be shy with this prep bead. Lay it nice and wide, but keep your gun moving at a pretty good clip. I would say for a typical 175 MIG machine, you want to run this prep bead at the middle heat position, but turn the line speed up 50% or more from the recommended.

OK, now that you've got all the prep beads layed, don't dawdle about. You want to take advantage of the heat that's in the casting. Go ahead and join your part to the prep bead with normal heat and wire feed settings.

After all the burning is done, you want to find a way to help the part cool as slowly as possible. I use sand as an insulator, but a welding blanket works very well also. If you don't have access to those, it would be good to fire up the propane torch and feed it some heat every five minutes or so to help normalize the welds.

There it is. Takes a bit of time, to be sure, but I've had very good luck with this method, and never had a part break free of the cast piece.

CRASH

[JeepFreak21]

Seriously though, you can do this with the MIG, but it takes a bit of effort. Two things you need to know:

1. That bitch needs to be cleaner than a Catholic virgin on confirmation day.

2. The weld is never going to be as strong as welding two pieces of mild steel together.

OK, so to achieve these two things I start by cleaning the area with a knotted wheel or wire brush. Once I get the paint and old petro-chemicals out of the way, I use a wire toothbrush and plenty of brake cleaner. Get it down in the pores of the metal and let it soak. This will free up the gunk, and also evaporate the water that is caught in there. Never use a grinding wheel to clean, as it actually closes the pores and traps the gunk/water inside.

OK, now to critical issue #2. You need to cut your bracket so that it follows the contours of the casting nicely, because you want to have as much welded area as possible. A bracket that was 8 inches long per side would not be excessive for this application. Think surface area. The more the better, because you are relying on it for strength.

OK, got the bracket cut and the area cleaned. Tack the bracket in posistion with your MIG. Now, time to add a bit of heat. A propane torch works just fine for this. We are trying to achieve two things at once with this heat 1) burn out any remaining gunk/water and 2) pre-heat the area so that it doesn't undergo a bunch of thermal shock when the MIG starts buzzing. It's tough to tell you how much heat to add, it's really hard to add too much with a propane powered torch, but 45 seconds to a minute for an 8 inch surface would be about right.

Now, here's where MIG diverges from stick. With a MIG and regular old ER70S-2 wire and CO2/Argon, I lay a bead on the casting right next to the bracket. It is going to provide a more flexible thermal buffer when you lay the final bead to the bracket. Don't be shy with this prep bead. Lay it nice and wide, but keep your gun moving at a pretty good clip. I would say for a typical 175 MIG machine, you want to run this prep bead at the middle heat position, but turn the line speed up 50% or more from the recommended.

OK, now that you've got all the prep beads layed, don't dawdle about. You want to take advantage of the heat that's in the casting. Go ahead and join your part to the prep bead with normal heat and wire feed settings.

After all the burning is done, you want to find a way to help the part cool as slowly as possible. I use sand as an insulator, but a welding blanket works very well also. If you don't have access to those, it would be good to fire up the propane torch and feed it some heat every five minutes or so to help normalize the welds.

There it is. Takes a bit of time, to be sure, but I've had very good luck with this method, and never had a part break free of the cast piece.

CRASH

Thanks for such a complete answer Crash. Is it safe to assume you're going to tell me to take apart the whole axle, pull the carrier, and pull the seals out first?
Billy

[4ward]

A piece of home insualtion works excellent for the cool down blanky. You could leave the seals in and see what happens to them. It's not like you're going to reuse them. I'd just replace them anyhow unless you just did it a couple months ago.

Sean

[JeepFreak21]

A piece of home insualtion works excellent for the cool down blanky. You could leave the seals in and see what happens to them. It's not like you're going to reuse them. I'd just replace them anyhow unless you just did it a couple months ago.

Sean


I just replaced them 2 weeks ago :(

[CRASH]

A piece of home insualtion works excellent for the cool down blanky. You could leave the seals in and see what happens to them. It's not like you're going to reuse them. I'd just replace them anyhow unless you just did it a couple months ago.

Sean

For some strange reason, young Billy had the axle fully built before welding on the brackets.

You can leave them in for now. Depending on where the bracket is going, the really intense heat may never reach the seals.

Seals can take a couple of hundred degrees without problems.

Andy

[JeepFreak21]

For some strange reason, young Billy had the axle fully built before welding on the brackets.

You can leave them in for now. Depending on where the bracket is going, the really intense heat may never reach the seals.

Seals can take a couple of hundred degrees without problems.

Andy


Yes, young Billy still insists on assembling/disassembling everything 6 times just to get the full effect of the install.
Billy :wierd:

[JeepFreak21]

OK, I got some 3" wide, 1/4" thick flat stock steel and I'm going to try to come up with some sort of bridge. I'll run a piece of steel perpendicular to the bridge and gusset every corner to give it some strength. On the driver's side, I'll tie it into the coil bucket and lower control arm mount. I think I'll also try to make it tie in to the diff cover (ie. use the diff cover bolt holes). We'll see how that goes :-\
Billy

[Root Moose]

Seriously though, you can do this with the MIG, but it takes a bit of effort. Two things you need to know:

1. That bitch needs to be cleaner than a Catholic virgin on confirmation day.

2. The weld is never going to be as strong as welding two pieces of mild steel together.

OK, so to achieve these two things I start by cleaning the area with a knotted wheel or wire brush. Once I get the paint and old petro-chemicals out of the way, I use a wire toothbrush and plenty of brake cleaner. Get it down in the pores of the metal and let it soak. This will free up the gunk, and also evaporate the water that is caught in there. Never use a grinding wheel to clean, as it actually closes the pores and traps the gunk/water inside.

OK, now to critical issue #2. You need to cut your bracket so that it follows the contours of the casting nicely, because you want to have as much welded area as possible. A bracket that was 8 inches long per side would not be excessive for this application. Think surface area. The more the better, because you are relying on it for strength.

OK, got the bracket cut and the area cleaned. Tack the bracket in posistion with your MIG. Now, time to add a bit of heat. A propane torch works just fine for this. We are trying to achieve two things at once with this heat 1) burn out any remaining gunk/water and 2) pre-heat the area so that it doesn't undergo a bunch of thermal shock when the MIG starts buzzing. It's tough to tell you how much heat to add, it's really hard to add too much with a propane powered torch, but 45 seconds to a minute for an 8 inch surface would be about right.

Now, here's where MIG diverges from stick. With a MIG and regular old ER70S-2 wire and CO2/Argon, I lay a bead on the casting right next to the bracket. It is going to provide a more flexible thermal buffer when you lay the final bead to the bracket. Don't be shy with this prep bead. Lay it nice and wide, but keep your gun moving at a pretty good clip. I would say for a typical 175 MIG machine, you want to run this prep bead at the middle heat position, but turn the line speed up 50% or more from the recommended.

OK, now that you've got all the prep beads layed, don't dawdle about. You want to take advantage of the heat that's in the casting. Go ahead and join your part to the prep bead with normal heat and wire feed settings.

After all the burning is done, you want to find a way to help the part cool as slowly as possible. I use sand as an insulator, but a welding blanket works very well also. If you don't have access to those, it would be good to fire up the propane torch and feed it some heat every five minutes or so to help normalize the welds.

There it is. Takes a bit of time, to be sure, but I've had very good luck with this method, and never had a part break free of the cast piece.

CRASH
I'm about to attempt this to weld a truss to the HP 30 housing (Diff housing stiffening thread (http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=65946)).

Do I need to "stress" about bending the housing using this method?

My thought was that having this much heat applied to one side of the housing may cause "beaming" or bending front to back.

Originally the thought was to to do .5" to 1.0" of bead at a time but then I remembered this is a cast peice.

Should I just go for it? Change this method? It's only a $50 housing but I've got lots of hours of prep into it now so I'd really rather not fubar.

[CRASH]

Assuming you don't have a jig to keep everything straight, which is what I would want, you should try and do small sections. I would burn all the junk out of the housing first, get everything really clean, and then preheat and burn 1" sections at a time.

[Root Moose]

Thanks Crash, much appreciated. :)