dana 30 upgrades

[moneypitxj]

i kinda screwed up. i put an arb in a dana 30 and left the stock splined axles. what are some options i can do to strengthen it up and like alloy axles and such? :doh: im in it for the long hual now.

[CheapXJ]

the 30/30 kit IMHO is a waste of money.

I've NEVER seen, heard of or broken a D30 shaft at the splines, it's ALWAYS the u-joints that go, and the ears soon follow.

I've been running stock 297 type shafts with 760 joints in them, full circle clips and I have yet to break them w/ 36" TSLs on my 30. my only saving grace is that I'm not locked up front (hasn't stopped me yet, hafta pull cable or take a strap sometimes, but so what?)

[WI88XJ]

the 30/30 kit IMHO is a waste of money.

I've been running stock 297 type shafts with 760 joints in them, full circle clips and I have yet to break them w/ 36" TSLs on my 30. my only saving grace is that I'm not locked up front (hasn't stopped me yet, hafta pull cable or take a strap sometimes, but so what?)

I believe my '88 has the whimpy 260 joints. If I want to change over to the 297's or better yet, the 760's do I have to change both shafts first?

[XJJPR]

the 30/30 kit IMHO is a waste of money.

I've NEVER seen, heard of or broken a D30 shaft at the splines, it's ALWAYS the u-joints that go, and the ears soon follow.



You need to wheel more!

30/30 is a great upgrade if you are going to do ARB and alloy axles anyhow.

Fisrt I would go full circle or weld 297 joints.
or
Second choice do some fake CTMs, 297 with bushings and full circle clips
or
Third sell the 27 spline stuff an go 30/30 kit w/CTMs.

Third option might invlove robbing a bank or two. :D

mark

[XJoachim]

I'm lucky i finally ditched the D30. I destroyed 2 gear sets this year, a detroit and about a dozen axle shafts (welded in 760s) with my 38.5 SXs. If you go over 35s with an agressive tire like a swamper the D30 is too weak, the housing bends, hubs and ball joints are going and it is no fun to wheel just a "What will break next?"

[cherokee89]

Don't you guys think the CTMs are sweet, but a waste of money? I mean, there has to be a weak link, and I think replacing 20-30 dollar Spicers is better than a few hundred on fawked axle shafts? I might be wrong, but I would rather have the u-joint blow, than the shafts.

By the way, I have heard Moser shafts are better than Superior shafts. I know a guy who sells them, and he said he has seen a number of the Superior's snap because they are too brittle.


Not trying to hijack, but I think it is relavent.

[JnJ]

Don't you guys think the CTMs are sweet, but a waste of money? I mean, there has to be a weak link, and I think replacing 20-30 dollar Spicers is better than a few hundred on fawked axle shafts? I might be wrong, but I would rather have the u-joint blow, than the shafts.

By the way, I have heard Moser shafts are better than Superior shafts. I know a guy who sells them, and he said he has seen a number of the Superior's snap because they are too brittle.


Not trying to hijack, but I think it is relavent.

Well it's been my experience that when the u-joint goes, it takes out the ears on the shaft as well. So, now you have to replace all. I'd get the beefier u-joints. I think I'll be trying these:

http://www.longfieldsuperaxles.com/

[Jes]

760...
http://www.fototime.com/{1014F758-C4EF-4B35-8293-830EE9EA72D2}/picture.JPG
...and a 297...
http://www.fototime.com/{E3A6B6D3-6D86-4918-A8E1-EF7F06FD08A1}/picture.JPG
...both had their caps welded.

Jes

[cherokee89]

Wow! Nice pics. I am not a big time wheeler, because I can't afford to break my junk all the time, even though it always seems to be broken, anyway. I see your piont, and that sways my opinion the other way. Something I never thought about. Thanks.

I love this place!! :)

[mbryson]

or something like this can happen if you need to move your rig at all with a broken shaft.......

http://home.att.net/~mbryson/images/Nice_u-joint--ball_joint2.jpg


http://home.att.net/~mbryson/images/Cherokee-Cruiser--Easy_does_it.jpg
............you too could get pushed around by a 1 ton Cruzah.....

[CheapXJ]

You need to wheel more!

30/30 is a great upgrade if you are going to do ARB and alloy axles anyhow.

Fisrt I would go full circle or weld 297 joints.
or
Second choice do some fake CTMs, 297 with bushings and full circle clips
or
Third sell the 27 spline stuff an go 30/30 kit w/CTMs.

Third option might invlove robbing a bank or two. :D

mark
funny... I run 36s on a 30 now, ran 33's before, broke a couple of 260 shafts (at the u-joints) and broke two 297s, have yet to break the 760s (but they only have 3 wheelin trips on 'em)


I lied tho, I have seen d30 shafts broken somewhere other than the u-joint, but these were not wheelin-related... these were frontal-offset crash related, axle tube breaks off, half the axle goes with it. other than that, nothin other that u-joints/yokes broken.

[Goatman]

I've seen plenty of stock D30 shafts break at the splines, even though the u-joint/yoke ears usually go first. Chromo axles are a good investment without CTM's because a broken u-joint normally won't damage the yokes if it's not driven on. Plus, the yokes are much stronger and don't deform so the u-joints will take more abuse. CTM's are worth the money if you don't like to break, and are way cheaper than mutliple replacement axles. If you've been on the trail when someone breaks a knuckle after breaking an axle u-joint, you'll go for the strongest stuff you can afford.

I also think the 30 spline kit is a great way to go if you're building an axle. You would buy a locker and stronger axles anyway, so might as well have 30 splines.

[XJoachim]

But you won't get stronger gears, as i posted before, i destroyed 2 sets of Spicer 4.56 in my front D 30 this year. This was why i finally decided to ditch the 30 and go 60/70

[Jes]

Ya, but you were running 38.5s!

[Beezil]

the best dana 30 upgreade is a dana 44.

[mbryson]

the best dana 30 upgreade is a dana 60.


Sorry, you mistyped.....

[XJJPR]

Cheap,

Funny? What is funny? So you're saying because you wheel it there shouldn't be any options out there for people? Not sure if that is what you mean, maybe you could clarify?

As I said 30/30 is a great option for people who are thinking of building their 30 up. Not everyone wants to change axle housings.

BTW FYI the 5-760=297x with different seals, so what's the point there?

[35xj]

i'm with beezil. mine is in the bed of the truck! and its passenger drop! :)

[Beezil]

ooops!

sorry....hanging around hinkley so much, caused me to misspell "60"....

did I say 44?

[XJJPR]

Beezil why?

You have broken them also!

:D

hinkley

[Beezil]

hopefully that will all change.

I am planning to solve my shaft problems so i can move onto more expensive things to break like t-cases!

"my repair time is severly affecting my seat time"

[basalt51]

i kinda screwed up. i put an arb in a dana 30 and left the stock splined axles. what are some options i can do to strengthen it up and like alloy axles and such? :doh: im in it for the long hual now.


Have you broken anything before? If not don't worry about it. You probably won't start breaking things if you drive smart.

[CheapXJ]

Cheap,

Funny? What is funny? So you're saying because you wheel it there shouldn't be any options out there for people? Not sure if that is what you mean, maybe you could clarify?

As I said 30/30 is a great option for people who are thinking of building their 30 up. Not everyone wants to change axle housings.

BTW FYI the 5-760=297x with different seals, so what's the point there?
the whole "you need to wheel more" thing...

that struck a nerve... my junk's been out of comission for a couple weeks and you have NO IDEA how bad I wanna go wheelin' right now.

I thought that the big difference between the 297 and the 760 was cast vs. forged crosses?

[EricsXJ]

OK while we are talking about polishing a turdie, what do you guys think is the stronger set up:

Super 30 (ARB, 30 spline alloy shafts)

or

Warn chromo shafts (27 spline?) + ARB

?????

[XJoachim]

Ya, but you were running 38.5s!
A buddy did this with 35s, he is a bit heavier on that skinny pedal :D

[XJJPR]

the whole "you need to wheel more" thing...

that struck a nerve... my junk's been out of comission for a couple weeks and you have NO IDEA how bad I wanna go wheelin' right now.

I thought that the big difference between the 297 and the 760 was cast vs. forged crosses?

YA that is a bitch not being able to wheel when you really want to.

The 760 thing is a Internet myth!

mark

[XJJPR]

OK while we are talking about polishing a turdie, what do you guys think is the stronger set up:

Super 30 (ARB, 30 spline alloy shafts)

or

Warn chromo shafts (27 spline?) + ARB

?????

30/30 kit

The shafts are basically the same alloy to alloy (yes people have their mfg preferences) so bigger shafts is the way to go.

mark

[fasty]

Question.. Is it easy find Dana 44 front axle for 96 XJ because I am thinking want buy a set of 35" tires. I was told that I can not use 4.88 gear for Dana 30. I tried look around to find Dana 44 axle for front swap. It seems hard find one. Let me know thanks.

[MrShoeBoy]

If the joints keep breaking on the Dana 30 why is going to a Dana 44 any better? Does the Dana 44 not use a 760x joint also?

I understand that the Dana 44 is stronger because of the bigger ring gear and housing but dont see the point in swaping one in if it has the same size joints as the Dana 30. If your going to go through the trouble of swaping axles why not go with a 60 and get bigger and stronger everything?

AARON

[XJoachim]

Yep, xou get a stronger differential, stronger gears and stronger shafts but you rely on the same u-joint size.

Sure you can put a CTM in there but you also have to go for chromoly axles. At this price (axle, chromoly shafts) you nearly can get a D60 to put in. A 60 is just a few $$$s more than a 44 but gives a lot more beef to rely on. :D

[XJJPR]

If the joints keep breaking on the Dana 30 why is going to a Dana 44 any better? Does the Dana 44 not use a 760x joint also?

I understand that the Dana 44 is stronger because of the bigger ring gear and housing but dont see the point in swaping one in if it has the same size joints as the Dana 30. If your going to go through the trouble of swaping axles why not go with a 60 and get bigger and stronger everything?

AARON

You're saying something I haven't brought up. This is correct. The 44s use the same size joint 5-760s/297x. The larger ring gear is the real key here between the two. If you want to go anything lower geared than 4.88s than a 44 change is they way to go. However, what I believe is why not use the parts you have already and build them if you're not looking for bigger joints or bigger ringer for the point of lower gears, than 4.88.

mark

[Beezil]

going to a 44 has nothing to do with the joints....

depending on which 44 yer going with:

thicker tubes
stronger housing
bigger balljoints
stouter knuckles
bolt-on true hi-steer
hubs
serviceable bearings
ability to run numerically high gear ratios
stronger gear sets


nuff said

[XJoachim]

Yep, and as i said you keep the weak link, the u-joint. Also the ears of the axles are comparable to the D30 ears so an upgrade to chromoly shafts is essential. And this is where it comes to determine the benefit of going big. This is why i decided to skip the 44 and put in a 60. I get 35 spline all around, much stronger knuckles (maybe king pin knuckles) and ball joints and a real huge piece of metal called u-joint. :D

What is the difference in a D44 to a D60 in cost? 1000$ ? :)

[fasty]

That's why I am not rich afford buy a dana 60 axle. I am sure Dana 60 axle is very strong. I just wanted buck bang affordable using Dana 44 that allow me use 4.88 gear run properly with 35" tires on my XJ jeep. You mean Dana 44's shaft and joint are weak. I thought there have aftermarket upgrade that makes very strong and hardened joint/shaft?

Correct me if i am wrong, Is Rubbicon TJ jeep uses Dana 44 front axle? The Rubbicon TJ jeep axle that i saw my friend has Rubbicon. It looks awesome very beef and strong can ability do rock crawling. His Rubbicon TJ jeep also uses 35" tires.

What is your recommend swap the front axle and which vehicle's front axle that can upgrade on Dana 30 on the XJ jeep with little modification or zero. I never have that experience with swap front axle.

[XJJPR]

going to a 44 has nothing to do with the joints....

depending on which 44 yer going with:

thicker tubes
stronger housing
bigger balljoints
stouter knuckles
bolt-on true hi-steer
hubs
serviceable bearings
ability to run numerically high gear ratios
stronger gear sets


nuff said

thicker tubes SLEEVE THE 30
stronger housing OK
bigger balljoints WHAT?
stouter knuckles NO
bolt-on true hi-steer YES
hubs ADD THEM
serviceable bearings ADD THEM
ability to run numerically high gear ratios TRUE BUT 4.56 IS GOOD ENOUGH
stronger gear sets BIGGER YES, SO!

:D

hinkley

[vintagespeed]

My old D30 was plenty stout & I wheeled the hell out of it. But if I had it to do over again it would've been cheaper to buy a HPD44 & just install some gears & a locker.

Warn Hub Conversion $850
Machined Rotors & new studs $200
Warn inners $700
Hi-steer $200
4.56 gears $200
Lincoln Locker $free

I was running 35s on this axle & never broke anything in it.

Mark, a 1/2 ton D44 doesn't have bigger balljoints than a D30? I know that my 3/4 ton D44 does have bigger ones, it's the same knuckles out as a D60.

[XJJPR]

Not if I want to give B some crapola!

hinkley

[CheapXJ]

so let's say this:

you want to run 4.88 gears in a trussed/sleeved D30 with D44 inner and outer knuckles, alloy shafts CTMs etc.

for shaft failure (other than u-joints) is it torque loading or deflection of the housing that's MORE associated to making a shaft fail?

what will the weak point be now? (let's say there's a detroit in there for the sake of discussion)

[MrShoeBoy]

going to a 44 has nothing to do with the joints....

depending on which 44 yer going with:

thicker tubes
stronger housing
bigger balljoints
stouter knuckles
bolt-on true hi-steer
hubs
serviceable bearings
ability to run numerically high gear ratios
stronger gear sets
nuff said

Why is going with a 44 have nothing to do with joints? It should have everything to do with the joints. If you are breaking the joints on your 30 you will break the joints on the 44. Both axles use the same 760x joint. Now you can upgrade to alloy shafts and CTMs but why would you need to upgrade to CTMs if the 44 is so strong? :laugh3:

BUT if you are breaking the gears, shafts, knuckles, or housing then a 44 is a worth while upgrade. Going with lower gearing is a plus too. I just dont see what all the hype is about a 44 vs a 30, it still uses the same essential component. A weak u-joint :moon:

AARON

[Beezil]

hinkley....

yes, you just wanted to mess with me at the cost of embarrasing yourself....

there's not one once of spobi in my list of 44-pros....

ya jackass!

:laugh:

[Beezil]

aaron, try running 37's with 5.38 gears on a dana turdie.

a dana 60 up front would be excellent!

[Goatman]

Sort of back to the original question. A D30 can be upgraded to pretty damn strong in every area other than the housing and ring and pinion. The first upgrade to a D30 is to get 760x u-joints and snap ring them. This will work very well if you don't run real hard stuff with 33" or even 35" tires if you have a very light foot and easy driving style. The next upgrade is to go with alloy shafts (stock size...1.16" diameter 27 spline), which hold up pretty well with snap ringed 760's up to 35" tires. Warn makes chromo inner shafts, and Superior makes both inner and outer chromo shafts. Going to CTM's with alloy shafts is a damn strong axle combination, and a 30 spline kit (1.31" diameter, same as a D44) for the inners is even stronger.

A weak point on the D30 is the stock stub shafts (27 spline 1.16" dia), so going alloy and going bigger is a good thing. Superior makes a chromo stub shaft, and Warn makes a chromo stub shaft that comes with their 5 on 4.5" hub kit. The strongest setup is a Warn 5 on 5.5" hub kit that comes with a chromo 30 spline stub shaft. This chromo 1.31" diameter 30 spline stub is the same size, but stronger material, than a stock D60 stub shaft (1.31" dia 30 spline). So, the strongest D30 would be the Superior 30 spline inners with 30 spline Warn 5 on 5.5" kit stubs. This would be a stronger axle combination than a D44.

Since the axles breaking is the number one weak point, the D30 can be built very strong in this area. D44 inner shafts are 1.31" dia 30 spline, and stub shafts are 19 spline and 1.24" dia (correct me if I slightly missed the stub shaft dia). So, even with Warn chromo shafts for the D44, the 30 spline (1.31" dia) Warn D30 hub kit shafts are stronger than the 19 spline D44 stub shafts. Additionally, the HPD30 ring and pinion have proven to be pretty strong, although they can be broken. With as much abuse as many D30's are given, with strong axle combinations, a surprisingly small number of ring and pinions have been broken.

The problem with building a real strong D30 is the cost, which is about the same (or more) as building a strong D44. A 30/30 kit and Warn 5 on 5.5" hub kit are $2000, plus the cost of a ring and pinion and gear setup which is $300-500, plus the CTM's which are $350, plus a good steering setup, plus a WJ knuckle conversion if you want to have bigger brakes and hy-steer like you would get on a D44. If you did all that, you'd have an axle that compares vary favorably with a D44 (if you trussed/sleeved the D30), with stronger stub shafts but a weaker ring and pinion, and more ground clearance. The cost would be roughly $3200+-.

A similar D44, with Warn chromo axles, CTM's, hy-steer, and Warn premium hubs, would be around $2700+- including the housing, if you built the mounts and narrowed it yourself. Buying one set up this way from an axle builder would be much more. You can get the 30 spline chromo Warn stubs to work on the D44 if you use D30 knuckles, either CJ, TJ or WJ. You'd loose the bigger brakes with TJ knuckles, and you'd loose hy-steer with either TJ or CJ knuckles, but the WJ knuckles would give you both hy-steer and bigger brakes......but of course the price goes up with the cost of the Warn 5 on 5.5" hub kit, although you'd deduct the $320 cost for the Warn stubs and premium hubs.

A D60 is really only an option if you're going to very large tires. It is very heavy and has lousy ground clearance unless the bottom is shaved. The passenger side pumpkin GM/Dodge D60's can be upgraded to 35 spline (1.5" dia) stubs using D70 parts, but the 35 spline parts won't work on a Ford drivers side pumpkin HPD60, so you're stuck with 30 spline outers. Of course, you can get 35 spline outers if you have a HPD60 custom built, but then you're talking about some serious cash. So, without the huge cost of a custom built D60, you are either talking about a pass side, low pinion D60 with 35 spline stubs or a drivers side HPD60 with 30 spline stubs. With the new alloy axles that are offered for D60's, it may be possible to upgrade the Ford stubs to 35 spline, but I haven't researched that.

As usual, which is best comes down to the preferences of the builder. What type of wheeling, driving style, and size of tires, plus the degree of importance of ground clearance and light weight.

[XJJPR]

hinkley....

yes, you just wanted to mess with me at the cost of embarrasing yourself....

there's not one once of spobi in my list of 44-pros....

ya jackass!

:laugh:


:party: :greensmok :skull1: ;) :wow: :angel:

[chassellbandit]

holy friggin hannah richard. i've been following this post wisth some interest, as i'm contemplating going to 35's in the near future. but in all of the mags, news forums, lists i ahve been on, this is the single most comprehensive post i have ever read. i thank you for posting it and taking the time to write it, i just learned a hell of alot.

[XJoachim]

Good point on the axles, but you forgot one thing, the passenger side GM D60 can be switched to the drivers side and the only downside now is a minor ground clearance until you shave it but you get a lot of goodies like king pin knuckles, strong housing and gears, no ball joints, hi-steer, 35 spline outers (possible), servicable hubs and real strong brakes.

The only downside then is that you have to grind your calipers to run 15" rims and you get a different bolt pattern too but that's the same if you build a D30 or a 44 you will have to get new rims anyway. :wave1:

http://www.jeepcherokee.de/albums/XJoachim_Achsen/aap.jpg

[moneypitxj]

:) thanx goatman that was the answer i was lookin for out of this 4 page thread very discriptive. you should go work for JP magazine they could use someone like you over there. thanx again

[XJWheelie]

I'm still kinda new to 4 wheeling and I'm not trying to change the topic, but when someone breaks an axle how do you get them out of the woods? For that matter how do you get them and their Jeep home?

Robert

[JnJ]

I'm still kinda new to 4 wheeling and I'm not trying to change the topic, but when someone breaks an axle how do you get them out of the woods? For that matter how do you get them and their Jeep home?

Robert
If ya got spares, you tear it down and replace it. If not, it depends on the type of axle your talking about. With a front D30, I pulled the inner shaft, left the stub shaft in the hub assembly (you don't want to remove the stub shaft) and drove home.

[MrShoeBoy]

If ya got spares, you tear it down and replace it. If not, it depends on the type of axle your talking about. With a front D30, I pulled the inner shaft, left the stub shaft in the hub assembly (you don't want to remove the stub shaft) and drove home.


Why cant you remove the stub shaft? The axle shaft carries no weight and does not hold anything together. Other than a really large and really tight nut holding the stub shaft, why cant you?

AARON

[Beezil]

on a dana 30, you MUST keep the outer stub shaft in place as it holds the hub bearing assy togther.

the hub-bearing, CANNOT withstand a side load, and it will seperate.

[XJJPR]

Why cant you remove the stub shaft? The axle shaft carries no weight and does not hold anything together. Other than a really large and really tight nut holding the stub shaft, why cant you?

AARON

The stub shaft holds the bearing together!

If it is not there the wheel WILL come off!

mark

[MrShoeBoy]

I had thought that the sealed bearing unit hub was self contained but apparently not. Thanks for the info.

AARON

[JnJ]

Why cant you remove the stub shaft? The axle shaft carries no weight and does not hold anything together. Other than a really large and really tight nut holding the stub shaft, why cant you?

AARON
The only thing holding the unibearing together is the stub shaft. If you run without the stub shaft, your wheel and tire will fall off.

[JnJ]

wow, lots of quick replies to that one. :)

[Beezil]

I had thought that the sealed bearing unit hub was self contained but apparently not. Thanks for the info.

it is self contained, and unserviceable......

but it still needs the outter shaft bolted to it to keep it from seperating.

[Goatman]

Yeah, it's a pressed together fit, and will hold for awhile, but without the stub shaft bolted through the hub it will eventually come apart and the wheel will fall off. Some around this board have found this out the hard way.

[XJWheelie]

I've looked through both my Haynes and my Chiltons shop manuals and I can't find a good exploded view of the front differential. Does anyone know where I can get one? I'm trying to follow this thread, but I'm not quite sure what is meant by the "outer shaft", "inner shaft", and "stub shaft." Could someone please explain this to me!

Thanks,
Robert

[BillR]

Yeah, it's a pressed together fit, and will hold for awhile, but without the stub shaft bolted through the hub it will eventually come apart and the wheel will fall off. Some around this board have found this out the hard way.
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt... :scared: :tears:

[mbryson]

I've looked through both my Haynes and my Chiltons shop manuals and I can't find a good exploded view of the front differential. Does anyone know where I can get one? I'm trying to follow this thread, but I'm not quite sure what is meant by the "outer shaft", "inner shaft", and "stub shaft." Could someone please explain this to me!

Thanks,
Robert

The 'outer' and 'stub' are the same thing.....

[What Rd]

I've looked through both my Haynes and my Chiltons shop manuals and I can't find a good exploded view of the front differential. Does anyone know where I can get one? I'm trying to follow this thread, but I'm not quite sure what is meant by the "outer shaft", "inner shaft", and "stub shaft." Could someone please explain this to me!

Thanks,
Robert

Hey Robert -
Try the 4WD Hardware catalogs. They have exploded view diagrams in them that can help in visualizing something. I don't recall having seen those diagrams on their website, though, only in their catalogs. http://www.4wd.com/

Anyway, to try to help out here . . .
The front axle shafts are two pieces - held together by the u-joint. The U-joint is the cross-shaped joint that permits the driven axle to turn a steered wheel. The inner axle shafts run from the differential out to the U-joint. The outer (or stub) shafts run from the U-joint out through the unitbearing hub. Our XJs have the pumpkin on the driver's side. So the inner axle shaft on the driver's side is significantly shorter than the inner shaft on the passenger side. These are sometimes referred to as long and short side inners.
Does that help?

[XJWheelie]

Thanks, that makes sense. I was trying to figure out where 3 different axles were! (stub, inner, and outer) :D

[JnJ]

Thanks, that makes sense. I was trying to figure out where 3 different axles were! (stub, inner, and outer) :D
Well to confuse you again, some XJs have a vacuum disconnect passengerside shaft. So you have the stub shaft, then an intermediate shaft, then the inner shaft. :confused1