Cagey Happenings at URF

[CRASH]

Well, after a couple of weeks of noodling, cutting, modding, re-cutting, re-noodling, notching, and welding, we've got the main structure of URF chassis 001 pretty well worked out. Some work remains. Specifically, a tube connecting the tops of the D-pillar, some gussets the base of the D-pillar, and a potential cross tube right above the dash to keep the A-pillars from collapsing. Also, the roof halo needs 4 more tubes of the .088 variety, of which I'm out of stock. These will connect the B and C pillars to the middle of the halo.

Enough babbling, on to the pics.

Here's a wide angle showing the basic structure:

http://home.off-road.com/~xjs/temp/Cage/Fullinterior.jpg

Here's the kickers that attach the A and B pillars to the frame. These attach to the 6 x 2 rocker panel replacement box, and to the angle-iron reinforced frame rail. They catch about 3 inches of the 6 x 2. (more pics of the frame when the camera recharges.):

http://home.off-road.com/~xjs/temp/Cage/Kicker1.jpg

Here's the cool part of this cage. It's a mix of internal and external, forming a ladder structure that spreads suspension loads. Half the ladder is inside, the other half outside. Heres the C and D pillar vertical stanchions poking out of the roof.

http://home.off-road.com/~xjs/temp/Cage/Tubesandroof.jpg

Here's the money shot. This is the roof halo, and you'll note the 8 vertical stanchions poking through. The four tubes will finish the triangulation of the B and C pillars.

http://home.off-road.com/~xjs/temp/Cage/Roofrack.jpg

One more of the interior.

http://home.off-road.com/~xjs/temp/Cage/PassInterior.jpg

I'm sure everyones curious about the A- pillar, and how it snakes around teh dash and through the floor, you'll have to wait for the camera to recharge. :D

Thanks to Jes, Lazy Gary, Sean Reynolds and wifey for the help in prototyping. I have a feeling this design is going to find it's way into more than a couple more WCGIC rigs in the coming months.

CRASH

[Beezil]

when will those fine asshat protectors be available to the public?

isn't it great da pres listed the tariff of foreign steel!?

I don't see any triangular gussets, which are your strongest corporate identifier.....

make sure you wrap the tubes in pool noodles.

wrap the steering wheel in ghetto-wool.

also, will the production cages be welded as carefully as this?:

http://home.off-road.com/~xjs/temp/Cage/Tubesandroof.jpg

[XJJPR]

With all that tubing sure seems to have WAY too much body panels left in place.

Let me introduce you to MR. SAWZALL!

Looks good Lupine, looks like some welding is still needed, or are you going for the Beezil thing, trail welding.

hinkley

[CRASH]

OK, OK, OK.......more pics.

Here's the A-pillar. Note the little stubby vertical stanchion that supports the front part of the roof halo.

http://home.off-road.com/~xjs/temp/Cage/Apillar.jpg

Here's another view. There is no way to get this bend without a cut and sleeve. (edit, there is a way, but the URF crew couldn't fathom making it work with their high blood-alcohol content).

http://home.off-road.com/~xjs/temp/Cage/DCP01230.JPG

Here's teh C-pillar going through the floor. The little tringle is there to stop the floor from tearing under a complete ass-over-teakettle roll. Not welded yet.

http://home.off-road.com/~xjs/temp/Cage/Cpillarfloor.jpg

This is the C-pillar attachment to the frame. It's a nice J-hook that attaches to a triangle that is welded to the frame (not finish welded yet). Momma always told me to triangulate when building a cage.

http://home.off-road.com/~xjs/temp/Cage/Cpillarframe.jpg

OK, the main structure. This is where stiffness of the chassis is made. Heres the A and B pillar kickers welded to the 6 x 2 and teh re-inforced frame. There will be one more kicker in the middle for 6 x 2 reinforcement purposes. They all line up so my 6V - 4AL Titanium skidplate will bolt in.

http://home.off-road.com/~xjs/temp/Cage/Rocker.jpg

CRASH

[CRASH]

Oh yeah, wize azzes, the halo's not welded because the roof still needs to be prepped for paint. Gotta still fill some holes and hit it with the random-orbital. Also got to prime the under side of the halo. There's only a 1/2 inch between the halo and the roof, which makes painting a challenge.

CRASH

[XJJPR]

Dude I think you're gona need some bigger tires!
:D

hinkley

[CRASH]

Yeah, there's a brand new set of turdy-seven inch Maximum Traction - Reinforced radials sitting out back, destined for a buggy project that may never get done.

Tempting.............

CRASH

[Economos]

Damn thats nice work Andy; I really like the "wedges" that tie into the 2x6 rockers. Lots-o ideas to be "borrowed". :D

[Beezil]

like, I kinda thought you were gonna come up with a bolt-awn cage....

that's too much welding.

[Lupine]

like, I kinda thought you were gonna come up with a bolt-awn cage

Uh, yeah that was sort of the original plan. Maybe not bolt on, but less welding than this.

However, I do have measured drawings. Everything can be duplicated.

It IS a lot of welding though.

MIG welding to the roof sucks. Tried it with .023, but the 210 welder can't be turned down that light. I think my 110 TIG is gonna have to finish it.

CRASH

[Beezil]

idea.....

and its not to late.....

don't weld to the roof skin....

weld in a lower and upper plate, with a high-durometer rubber sandwhich(or something) and the plates attac to the tube., obviously

through-bolt the roof with four 5/16-18 stainless (or titanium grade of urf's choice)

you are still tying in the roof skin, just as strong if not stronger, and when someone take a picture of your roof, there will be 16,24, or even up to 32 stainless steel bolt heads glimmering in the sun, making you look like one solid motha'.

I say welding tube to the roof skin makes this entire thread wanna suck.

I'll vote tomorrow.

[XJJPR]

MIG welding to the roof sucks. Tried it with .023, but the 210 welder can't be turned down that light. CRASH


Rookie

Turn it up and get it flowing!

:D

hinkley

[Lupine]

and its not to late.....

Where the tubes go through make it WAAAY too late. They catch half of the roof rack rail, and half of the internal roof support.

It's way stout, but not bolt-on, bark-eater friendly.

CRASH

[XJZ]

That's lookin' sweet....

I'm just hoping you're not going to wheel that thing and expose the URF Racing Showcase Rig to any kind of unnecessary risk. I think it should be used for URF promotional purposes only. :)

Great job!

[Economos]

idea.....
up to 32 stainless steel bolt heads glimmering in the sun, making you look like one solid motha'.


:bling: :laugh:

[RyanSullivan]

I've always thought about tieing in a roof rack to my cage. How would you seal between the roof and bars? I was thinking you could weld it but wont the flex odf the unibody just break something?

[CRASH]

I've always thought about tieing in a roof rack to my cage. How would you seal between the roof and bars? I was thinking you could weld it but wont the flex odf the unibody just break something?

We went around and around on this and decided to weld it. 3M makes a kiler body sealer that is paintable, and I'm sure it would work fine. Since I wanted to weld to the factory roof support brackets (above the trim, hidden by your headliner), I figured why not weld to the roof as well.

I'll TIG the roof to the cage to minimize heat affected area, and I may hit it with some heat to normalize the steel. I need to figure out how to do this with temperature sensitive tape and what not.

CRASH

[Willis]

http://home.off-road.com/~xjs/temp/Cage/Rocker.jpg


I like this one. Very nice execution of rocker replacement and frame tie in.

Steve

[Safari Ary]

I like this one. Very nice execution of rocker replacement and frame tie in.

Steve

Yeah, it's good to finally see some rocker protection on a rig of Andy's, maybe now he'll be able reliably open his doors on a regular basis :laugh3:

Cage looks good and I'm diggin the rocker protection.

Ary

[useless]

So how much tube do you have left for me? :D

I still haven't ordered mine...

Your A-pillars are almost exactly like mine.

[jjvande]

how much extra does all that steel weigh?, rockers, tubes, attachments, and oh yea.. the titanium skidd,,.:)

[MrShoeBoy]

It seems like the A piller for the roll cage has a lot of bends in it where it goes around the dash and then through the floor to the frame. You dont see this as being a potential point in failure? From what I have seen and read, you want the tubes as stright as possable and the whole design to have lots of triangles. I am not trying to pick a fight about whats right or wrong, just wondering why all the bends.

AARON

[XJJPR]

It seems like the A piller for the roll cage has a lot of bends in it where it goes around the dash and then through the f`oor to the frame. You dont see this as being a potential point in failure? From what I have seen and read, you want the tubes as stright as possable and the whole design to have lots of triangles. I am not trying to pick a fight about whats right nr wring, just wondering why all the bends.

AARON

I love this one, sorry but if we were all building race cages it WOULD matter
H~uever with the @`ded steel and structure that is there even with the bends it's going to add substantial help to having the roof fold on to your head. Sometimes there are compromises to all designs and the ease of getting in and out sometimes win out in the XJ cage ddsig.& I would rather beable to get in and out in an emergency situation being with my junk or hdlpiNc someone else than the need for 200 mph protection in my 5 mph jeep. Don't forget the majority of us would drive our jeeps without a cage in it on any freway in the world and we have MUCH more potential for harm then, then in a 5 mph roll over. That extra stdel veth the bend will help save your a$$ for what it is built for.

So there isn't a right or wrong just what YOU want in YOUR cage or Jeep whatever it is. No fight thought of.

HTH

hinkley

[Beezil]

this is an easy mod to fix the problem of we c door opening forms....

http://users.rcn.com/beezil/public/bracket-redo.jpg

this still makes me crack up

[SeanP]

Very nice execution. I really like the rocker tie-ins. Gave me more ideas for when mine gets started (very soon). I want my halo to project out past the rain gutters about 1" so I can get proection there. I definately will use a bolt thru a' la beezils design.

SeanP

[MrShoeBoy]

I love this one, sorry but if we were all building race cages it WOULD matter!
However with the added steel and structure that is there even with the bends it's going to add substantial help to having the roof fold on to your head. Sometimes there are compromises to all designs and the ease of getting in and out sometimes win out in the XJ cage design. I would rather beable to get in and out in an emergency situation being with my junk or helping someone else than the need for 200 mph protection in my 5 mph jeep. Don't forget the majority of us would drive our jeeps without a cage in it on any freway in the world and we have MUCH more potential for harm then, then in a 5 mph roll over. That extra steel with the bend will help save your a$$ for what it is built for.

So there isn't a right or wrong just what YOU want in YOUR cage or Jeep whatever it is. No fight thought of.

HTH

hinkley

I understand. I was just wondering what the justifications are for the bends. And as you put it, theres enough steel there to protuct him in a roll. I would want the cage for the street mainly and then for offroad. I see a road roll more severe than offroad BUT that ALL DEPENDS on the suituation. Enough said.

Beezil, that really helps! SO wheres the Sponge Bob on your vehicle.

Thanks,

AARON

[FarmerMatt]

Oh Man... I was really looking forward to giving you hell about JB welding the roof to the cage, but now... I can't even give you hell about using your rockers / doors on an obsticle anymore. That's alright, we'll always having your driving to make fun of. BTW your wifes welding is looking quite nice.

Matt

[Lupine]

It seems like the A piller for the roll cage has a lot of bends in it where it goes around the dash and then through the floor to the frame. You dont see this as being a potential point in failure? From what I have seen and read, you want the tubes as stright as possable and the whole design to have lots of triangles. I am not trying to pick a fight about whats right or wrong, just wondering why all the bends.

AARON

I understand the concern, and frankly, the WCGIC has gone around this topic around the campfire too many times to count. It all boils down to a compromise. I want my wife and myself to be able to get in and out quickly. We use this vehicle on almost as many hunting trips as 4 wheeling trips. The kind of bird hunting we do requires getting in and out of the vehicle a whole bunch. Access is key.

There is another facet I should mention. This chassis is built with chassis stiffness and longevity as the first and foremost considerations. The roll-over protection is an ancillary benefit. I have never felt unsafe in an XJ, they are designed to meet NHTSA standards for highway travel at high speeds, so a rollover at crawling speeds or even a complete ball-up at desert speed in a cageless XJ does not bother me. The cage only adds to my comfort level, and means I can beat up on the WCGIC when racing back to camp.

After 9 years of building and wheeling XJ's, I have learned one thing very well:

XJ's are disposable vehicles. You build them, you wheel them, they fall apart. If I can get 5 years out of the new chassis, I will be ecstatic. Clean (almost) rust-free XJ's are a dime a dozen out West, so you can always find a "new" chassis dirt cheap. Wish it wasn't this way, but there it is.

CRASH

PS. A close up of the kickers everyone seems to dig. They are 1.5" x 3" x .120" wall, cut at a diagonal, such that the intact wall is on the bottom. To the top is welded a piece of 2" x .188" wall strap, leaving enough room to weld the 1.5" tube nicely. They are about 11" long across the top.

Blurry pic:

http://home.off-road.com/~xjs/temp/Cage/Kickercloseup.jpg

[MrShoeBoy]

Thanks crash, thats all I was wondering about.

AARON

[MountaineerMac]

Looks good so far. Nice to see some new cage/rocker ideas. :)

[SeanP]

Blurry pic:

http://home.off-road.com/~xjs/temp/Cage/Kickercloseup.jpg[/QUOTE]

looks like a nice triangle. I looked at the floor of my 97 and it is anything but a straight edge going from the "frame" out past the rockers. How did you deal with this? Just weld whatever flat spots you could and fill in the gaps with the MIG?

Sean

[CRASH]

Blurry pic:

http://home.off-road.com/~xjs/temp/Cage/Kickercloseup.jpg

looks like a nice triangle. I looked at the floor of my 97 and it is anything but a straight edge going from the "frame" out past the rockers. How did you deal with this? Just weld whatever flat spots you could and fill in the gaps with the MIG?

Sean[/QUOTE]

The floor offers so little structural support it's hardly worth worrying about. We "fixed it" as best we could with a 3 lb sledge, and then ran some stitches. :D

CRASH

[Jes]

SpongeBob approves!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jdrios/sponge.jpg

Jes

[CRASH]

I concur with SB's choice of beverage.

CRASH

[ashmanjeepxj]

I know your only going hunting and stuff, but make some triangulation in your roof rack :D

I know your not done, neither am I (no triangulation yet), but mine will have LOADS of trangles, x-s, and gussets when done.

I also dont like the bend at the bottom of your hops tieing into your frame. You could run a piece of tube from the middle of your bend out to the slider If I can picture you design well.. that should help take stress off that weld and help prevent that bend from further bending and letting that hoop push down in a roll. If It bend down in a roll the weld would rip. A good desing limits the stress on welds and puts the stress on the tube... IF you NEED to have a high stress weld like you have there, then it should be gusseted.

I build cages for a different kinda wheelin so HTH.

[Safari Ary]

I build cages for a different kinda wheelin so HTH.

Dave, I hope your entire post was a joke...:D

Andy may use his Jeep for a hunting truck, but I wouldn't exactly call him a timid or mild wheeler ;)

[Beezil]

triangles are pretty

[CRASH]

I build cages for a different kinda wheelin so HTH.

Really? What kind of wheeling would that be?

CRASH

[CRASH]

You're not picturing my design well. Please re-read this entire thread. Only one tube has a J-hook, the C-pillar. It is welded to plate, which is then welded to the frame rail with 12 inches of bead. There is a triangle on the inside to keep the bend from tearing out the floor in a roll, 10 inches of weld bead. In fact, the tube with a bend actually will help to absorb some impact in a roll, without compromising chassis stiffness. In fact given the relative flexiness of the J-hook compared to a tube with a straight shot, the welds take relatively LESS stress. Think of it as a crumple zone, spreading the impact load over a greater time frame as the pre-bent tube flexes, and eventually bends.

CRASH



I also dont like the bend at the bottom of your hops tieing into your frame. You could run a piece of tube from the middle of your bend out to the slider If I can picture you design well.. that should help take stress off that weld and help prevent that bend from further bending and letting that hoop push down in a roll. If It bend down in a roll the weld would rip. A good desing limits the stress on welds and puts the stress on the tube... IF you NEED to have a high stress weld like you have there, then it should be gusseted.

[XJJPR]

CRASH,

You have used just way too much tubing and have done way too much welding on your junk. You should just cut it all off and go to the mall, because your just a P***y web wheeler! :D

hinkley

[CRASH]

I know your not done, neither am I (no triangulation yet), but mine will have LOADS of trangles, x-s, and gussets when done.

1.5 x .120" tube weighs 1.769 lb./ft. Every bit of tube you add encourages the rollover you are trying to avoid. I'm using 095 wall tube in strategic locations for just this reason.

Every design is a compromise. I fully understand that. I am planning for a family, and this design is built with that, as well as my other interests in mind. It is primarily a cage designed under a theory of the existing chassis acting upon a ladder structure that is very stiff by its nature.

Are there better designs out there from a full rock-racing perspective? Absolutely. I would have lost the roof halo entirely, moved all the tubes inside, and triangulated the piss out of it. Where would that leave me when wifey needed to get to a little munchkin in the back seat?

The biggest problem I have seen in cage design is the tendency to create a jungle gym of tube that only adds marginal amounts of chassis stiffness and rigidity. Super rigidity is great for a strictly rock raced rig, it helps it live longer. Add too much, and the rig becomes a danger on the highway to it's occupants, as the shock loading is transferred directly to the passengers, with no chassis give whatever.

I seek a balance of chassis stiffness, increased occupant safety, and occupant convenience. This balance is not the same for everyone, and in fact, I'm sure it varies widely among users of this BBS. Time will tell if URF 001 achieves this balance for my family's interests.

Andy

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Crash, the cage and rock rail stuff all looks great! I have had a number of these ideas in my head for a long time. One change I would make is to move the A pillar brace to the outside like Richard did and get rid of the internal one. It's probably a bit less strong, but gives much more clearance for entry and exit and will protect the body along the windshield. JMHO. Now for a couple questions. How did you weld the tubing to the frame tie in parts? Doesn't seem like there would be room to get a welder in there. Maybe you held everything in place, tacked the tubing, then lowered the tubing back through the hole in the floor to fully weld the joint and then push it back up into place to weld the support piece to the frame? Also, what are you using to support the Jeep? I see some triangle pieces that appear to be on casters, but I don't see what is keeping them from falling over. Also, what is your shop like? I am thinking of putting up a new building on my property and have been reading posts on PBB about shops. THanks for any input. Jeff

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

One more question: What are you using for a bender? How is it mounted? Is it hydraulic or manual? Anything you would do different? Ok, a few more questions then. :) Jeff

[XJJPR]

CRASH or should I be asking Lupine?

http://home.off-road.com/~xjs/temp/Cage/Kickercloseup.jpg

What's with all the splatter? :D

hinkley

[CRASH]

Maybe you held everything in place, tacked the tubing, then lowered the tubing back through the hole in the floor to fully weld the joint and then push it back up into place to weld the support piece to the frame?

Bingo. Tacked in place, then lowered back down and welded. This pic is of the B-pillar lowered dback down for welding.

http://home.off-road.com/~xjs/temp/Cage/Kicker1.jpg

Shop is WAY to small, just a 2 car garage. Bender is a JD-2, manually operated. The supports are 1.5" x .188 wall box with a big hinking piece of C-channel welded to the top. The casters are welded to the bottom.

I'm building a shop in my next house, and it's not going to be any smaller than 900 sqaure feet.

[CRASH]

That's what happens when you let wifey loose with a high powered MIG gun.

She's much better with the TIG. :D

CRASH

[XJJPR]

That's what happens when you let wifey loose with a high powered MIG gun.

She's much better with the TIG. :D

CRASH

Sure, You blame it on your wifey and B blames his Mom. :rolleyes:

hinkley

[CRASH]

Sure, You blame it on your wifey and B blames his Mom. :rolleyes:

hinkley

Does this make Beezil and Crash related in some way? Sickening if true.

CRASH

[XJJPR]

Does this make Beezil and Crash related in some way? Sickening if true.

CRASH

Lupine?

[CRASH]

Lupine?

No, just the usual jackass, discussing himself in third person.

Are you befuddled yet?

Lupine :wave:

[Beezil]

Hinkley's participation has devalued the thread.

Its on its way to sucking.

[XJJPR]

Hinkley's participation has devalued the thread.

Its on its way to sucking.

Beezil,

Even when you welded on that shc 40 pipe you didn't creat that much splatter!

Lupine/Crash who ever you're dressed as today, you really need to get it straight for yourself before coming out into the real world.

hinkley

And you wonder why I'm so :confused:

[Beezil]

pipe?

what pipe?

I don't know what yer talking about.

yep, as predicted.......this thread SUCKS!

[breadtrk]

I like those rockers too. I have one suggestion. Mine are very similar to yours. Have you though about adding a triangular piece to the leading and trailing edges of the rail supports? Make it big enough to cover the distance from the main frame to the outer edge of the rocker and fore or aft equally as much. This lessens rock busting and allows smoother progress when you would otherwise have to gas it and jerk when the brace gets hung.

I hope that explanation is clear.

[CRASH]

I like those rockers too. I have one suggestion. Mine are very similar to yours. Have you though about adding a triangular piece to the leading and trailing edges of the rail supports? Make it big enough to cover the distance from the main frame to the outer edge of the rocker and fore or aft equally as much. This lessens rock busting and allows smoother progress when you would otherwise have to gas it and jerk when the brace gets hung.

I hope that explanation is clear.

Almost done with that very idea. There is also now a piece of stock that sneaks between the front of the back door, and the back of the front door. It stops the rockers from wanting to rotate up under full impact loads.

CRASH

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Have you got updated pics of your cage work? I really want to see progress. :) Jeff