XJ's in Competition! a new thread!

serious replies only......

Grant and Ed, here you are.....


I'm out.

Starting from the point of failure, a post from Ed Stevens:


Location:
Posts: 456
This may help
New to Rally?

This may help with an understanding of the Rally classes. The stock rules (& SUV rules, linked) are fairly specific. The local series in your area may (will) have different rules for classes outside the national classes.

I understood the initial intent of Jeepspeed included possible entry into the SUV class, but the SCCA rules disallow many of the modifications. This is why there have been no Jeepspeed entrants in the California Rally Series lately.

A 4-banger XJ could make a fun rally toy, but fitting into a class where you are not up against faster Sub's may be difficult. These courses are fast graded dirt roads, not off-road race conditions.

Damn, I would rather have this thread back on the proper forum. Are you/we willing to begin a new thread in the proper forum (and let Mark delete this out of his domain)?


__________________
Lifetime Member

Happy Trails!
Ed A. Stevens

Thank you much Beez!

I was gonna get around to posting again, but thats aloooot of work.


I didnt even know you came in here, and now your HELPING street XJs? Welcome to the darkside












BTW: No arguing in this thread, I get enough of that in my hippie college soc classes...

What are the rules,ect? I think it would be fun. Not sure if there are any circuits in SD,WY,MT areas though.

This is the link to information on Performance Rally Competition.

Grant had good info as well, on other SCCA competition classes.

Aren't the production classes and group 2 limited to 2.56L displacement. That would meen running a 2.5L 4wd in production GT and a 2wd 2.5L in production. You could run a 2wd 4.0L in Group 5. The 4wd and 4.0L combo couldn't be used in anything but the open class. I think kreature rallies his xj, maybe he will chime in.

The 2.5L limit is not that bad when you realize the competition is also limited to the same displacement. The later model 2.5L XJ has MPFI and considerable power from the powerplant. Used 2.5L XJ's are also cheap. Most people scorn the 2.5L, but it fits the class structure of established racing organizations much better that the 4.0L. A 2.5L with a NV242 and trash-loc could (has) made a fairly good Rally platform.

Racing the 4.0L against 5L V8's is not really a good class to fit in with much chance of being competitive.

I don't really understand what this thread is all about but here's my take on it.

There was a guiy who raced an MJ in the SCCA Pro Rally series for many years. I have not been able to find any information on his truck or his name but I was told he was a Michigan native. I do know that he raced in the 4wd category with a 4.0L and from there I don't know. I saw his truck a couple years ago in town but I never saw it parked anywhere so i could look at it.

I do understad that he was pretty successful with it and I know it looked badass. There is currently a guy running a SC Chevy 350 in an s-10 with 4wd and he was kickin ass so to compete with him you will need some power.

Ajax auto races a stock XJ in desert races, you do not need all the fancy long arm kits. The XJ works the best offraod with 10 inches of travel. If you check out the larger lift kits like the skyjacked they have big bumpstop spacers so you do not gain any travel.

Copied from JU Speedfreaks forum:


by: Kreature



Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Westchester, NY
Sorry I'm a little late to the discussion.
Actually the Jeep holds it's own quite well on the rally course and in my opinion the XJ is an excellent starter vehicle for off-road racing due to it's strength and low cost to maintain. Understanding both how to drive it and how to build it makes the difference between competitive times and a potential disaster. I race my Jeep XJ in the SCCA and it is officially approved for competition in the RallyCross and ClubRally competitions (assuming it meets race regulations). I can get more details for anyone who is interested.

I'm not going to mix words, racing is not about what's cool and popular, it's about engineering, physics and proven techniques. The pro-rally guys have been doing this for decades and have my undying respect.

The classic rally turn:
It's all about managing the transfer of weight to the four corners of the vehicle. In short you should be able to come down a straight at 60-mph and slide the vehicle around a tight 90% turn without ever touching the gas or brake peddles and still carry significant momentum exiting the turn. It took me about 6 months to understand how to do this and I'm far from mastering the classic rally turn but it's truly an amazing feat when executed properly.

Setting up the vehicle:
It is nothing like a rock crawler. I run a 101" wheelbase XJ and keep the ride height around stock (maybe 1"-1.5" over). A shorter wheelbase like a Wrangler should probably be lowered. Sway-bars, spring rates and shock valving are absolutely essential. The faster the average speeds the greater the spring rates and sway-bar loads, shock valving follow the spring rates. Oh and last but not least TIRES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm averaging 40-60 mph and require progressive spring rates around 300/160 front, 255/135 rear, heavy duty front sway-bar. Check my mods page for details on the setup including a diagram of front axle travel.

Oh by the way, I race in Pennsylvania at Rally Park NorthEast. It's overseen by the SCCA and part of Rausch Creek.
http://www.rallyparknortheast.com



XJguy

Hey all,
Yes the SCCA officially permitted the XJ as of last summer (ya!)
2003 has been a great learning experience and JeepSpeed East is gearing up for it's first full season in '04. Currently we have only raced at the Rally Park NorthEast in PA but I don't see any reason that we couldn't start competing at other courses around the country.

First off I can't begin to tell you how much fun this is! Not just blasting around this old gravel quarry and catching air on the straight's but the people you compete with are so cool and even the most seasoned racing pro's are very generous sharing racing tricks.

Some of the JeepSpeed East rules are still being worked out as it's a compromise between the original JeepSpeed and the SCCA. Anyone who's thinking about getting involved should know there is two classes (kinda) for rallying. There's the full cage and full sponsorship of JeepSpeed East which permits us to compete in the SCCA ClubRally and then there's the ability to just run with the SCCA under the entry level RallyCross events that is designed to limit top speeds for vehicles without cages.

As this is all fairly new we are looking to get more Jeeps in the competition. I'd be happy to answer any questions I can and whatever I don't know I'll point you in the direction of someone who does.

More info on the SCCA ClubRally and RallyCross:
http://www.scca.org/amateur/performance_rally/index.html

kreature said:

Hey all,
Yes the SCCA officially permitted the XJ as of last summer (ya!)
2003 has been a great learning experience and JeepSpeed East is gearing up for it's first full season in '04. Currently we have only raced at the Rally Park NorthEast in PA but I don't see any reason that we couldn't start competing at other courses around the country.

First off I can't begin to tell you how much fun this is! Not just blasting around this old gravel quarry and catching air on the straight's but the people you compete with are so cool and even the most seasoned racing pro's are very generous sharing racing tricks.

Some of the JeepSpeed East rules are still being worked out as it's a compromise between the original JeepSpeed and the SCCA. Anyone who's thinking about getting involved should know there is two classes (kinda) for rallying. There's the full cage and full sponsorship of JeepSpeed East which permits us to compete in the SCCA ClubRally and then there's the ability to just run with the SCCA under the entry level RallyCross events that is designed to limit top speeds for vehicles without cages.

As this is all fairly new we are looking to get more Jeeps in the competition. I'd be happy to answer any questions I can and whatever I don't know I'll point you in the direction of someone who does.

More info on the SCCA ClubRally and RallyCross:
http://www.scca.org/amateur/performance_rally/index.html

Click to expand...

Good to hear..(edited because I dont want my lynch mob to ruin this thread again)

XJguy

Weasel said:

With the 4.0 you could stroke it and run the open class, right? I think you could be conpetetive but you would need $$.

Click to expand...

In an effort to keep costs down, increasing the displacement on the 4.0L is not permitted and to be quite honest not very necessary. Before I ran for the first time I was thinking the exact same thing but maintaining traction even on a stock engine with over 150k mi. is a challenge. Fine tuning the suspension is the most important first step then you can get into gearing, lockers and the rest.

So who here is thinking about competing? What were you thinking of running?

kreature said:

In an effort to keep costs down, increasing the displacement on the 4.0L is not permitted and to be quite honest not very necessary. Before I ran for the first time I was thinking the exact same thing but maintaining traction even on a stock engine with over 150k mi. is a challenge. Fine tuning the suspension is the most important first step then you can get into gearing, lockers and the rest.

So who here is thinking about competing? What were you thinking of running?

Click to expand...

I was thinking about running an 2wd mj with a 2.5L in rally cross, but there aren't many rally crosses around here so I may have to step up to club rally probably Coefficient 1

CW said:

I was thinking about running an 2wd mj with a 2.5L in rally cross, but there aren't many rally crosses around here so I may have to step up to club rally probably Coefficient 1

Click to expand...

You're out in Idaho, yeah not as many rally races in the west, it's mostly and east coast thing but there are still some if you look around.

MJ that's the pickup version of the XJ right? That should do good, I see allot mini pickups run, nissan toyota S-10's... Maybe just try to get some more weight over the rear. Personally I like 4wd but I started out in rear wheel only, it really helps to slide the rear around until you understand the controlled slide.
Check out the forums on SpecialStage.com, most of the die-hard rally racers are always on there and know a hell of a lot more than me! I'm sure you can find something out your way.

So what is that an auto or 5-speed? Also how much does it weigh.

kreature said:

You're out in Idaho, yeah not as many rally races in the west, it's mostly and east coast thing but there are still some if you look around.

MJ that's the pickup version of the XJ right? That should do good, I see allot mini pickups run, nissan toyota S-10's... Maybe just try to get some more weight over the rear. Personally I like 4wd but I started out in rear wheel only, it really helps to slide the rear around until you understand the controlled slide.
Check out the forums on SpecialStage.com, most of the die-hard rally racers are always on there and know a hell of a lot more than me! I'm sure you can find something out your way.

So what is that an auto or 5-speed? Also how much does it weigh.

Click to expand...

Yeah MJ = Comanche. As for the weight issue, I don't know how much they weigh. But thats why I was thinking of a 2.5L instead of a 4.0L, I wan't to keep the front light. I have a line on an MJ with a blown tranny, so I can go with either the auto of 5 speed, I'll probably go with an AX-15

Nice, I bet it's balanced pretty good. Some of the other drivers may look at you funny when they see you have solid front and rear axles but the additional wheel travel REALLY helps in the rough sections.

I started out with the auto but keeping the revs up in the turns (so it wouldn't up-shift) and the extra play in the drivetrain became a real pain on the track so now my 2nd XJ is the 5-speed AX-15.

One guy took me for a hell ride in a late model Subaru RS (non turbo). He had full DMS suspension and for performance just a lightweight flywheel. Aside from skid plates and gravel rally tires it was stock but man could that thing MOVE!!! I was impressed by the quick shifts thanks to the light weight flywheel.

I think I'm going to do the same thing and focus on getting quick shifts, after all what good is power if you cant get it to the ground. I'm currently looking for a lightweight flywheel that will fit (if you hear of one let me know). Also I hate the long throw of stock clutch so I was looking into a Wilwood clutch MC/pedal assembly. If you're converting over to the 5-speed from an auto you might consider it but I just started searching so there might be something better.

http://www.wilwood.com/products/pedal_assem/clutch/index.asp

___________________________________
Now dead '91 XJ (donor vehicle) --> Mods
Coming soon '97 XJ, I-6, 5-speed, 4WD
JeepSpeed East / SCCA RallyCross
The race course

Kreature explain to me how you rally race and drive through corners without touching the gas or the brake? The way I learned it is to use minimal braking into the corner, then use the weight of the vehicle to get it sideways then hammer the gas through the corner.


This works damn well for me and it's the only way I know how to do it. Maybe I just read you wrong?


Maybe I will see you in a couple years. I am building a CRX Si right now for auto cross and rally racing.

FatXJ,
I know the MJ you were talking about the guy lives in Houghton, MI in the UP. I went to school there (Michigan Tech) and he drove that thing for his daily driver. It was pretty sweet. It was a 92 and I believe he had a cage in it, racing buckets with 5-points, and 4.0L with 5-speed. Right before I graduated last May, I saw that he was selling it at one of the dealerships. He wanted a little over $6K but he had taken the cage and the buckets out of it. I think he used to work at Goodwin Motors.....

Brent

FatXJ said:

Kreature explain to me how you rally race and drive through corners without touching the gas or the brake? The way I learned it is to use minimal braking into the corner, then use the weight of the vehicle to get it sideways then hammer the gas through the corner.


This works damn well for me and it's the only way I know how to do it. Maybe I just read you wrong?


Maybe I will see you in a couple years. I am building a CRX Si right now for auto cross and rally racing.

Click to expand...

Oh I was just trying to emphasize a point. Actually I usually LFB (left foot brake) and dance between the brake and gas to maintain the balance of the slide. The dirt rally slide is nothing like an asphalt turn. First, do NOT touch the brake entering a turn or you'll do a nose dive into the trees. Also hitting the gas in a rear wheel drive will kick out the rear but I can take a turn almost twice as fast with the "rally slide".

Ok, lets say you're taking a fast left turn. Basically you turn the wheel to the right JUST before the turn (really more of a jab than a turn). Once you feel the weight of the vehicle start to shift to the outside (right), turn hard into the turn (left). This will toss the vehicle into a slide. This is called "setting it up" for the turn.

Primarily you are doing this to transfer the weight as it's the weight transfer that will steer the vehicle threw the turn, not the steering (ideally the front wheels are straight). Once you set it up, transferring the weight to the rear (more gas) will cause it to straighten out. Transferring the weight to the front (brake or lifting on the gas) will cause it to turn in. Remember if you apply the gas it's not to kick out the tires, just to transfer weight.

Sniped from a thread off a SpecialStage.com forum:
"Keep in mind that although basic car-control principles always apply, the basic laws of physics are different for dynamic (rally) and static (track) friction. Initiating, controlling, and ending a slide in rally is all about weight transfer, and with AWD while sliding a little lift on the throttle will cause turn in and a little press on the throttle will cause you to straighten out. Although weight transfer is an important principle on track too, the scope and scale are much smaller."

I know this is a confusing concept if you don't physically do it (kinda like riding a bike for the first time) but it is SOOOO00000oooooo cool when you do it right!
Let me know if this makes sense.

P.S. If you do try to test this you need a tire with a VERY strong sidewall but a minimum of 35psi on standard tires will start to give you a proper idea of this technique.