I dont know what to do anymore...dead XJ

Some of you may have read my earlier posts about the "Norwegian XJ" that want start anymore. I tried to find out what was wrong by myself with help from friends and family, but we couldnt find anything.
Then i delivered it to the local dealer, and there is has been for 25 days now!!!!!
They cant find the fault either....what should i do? I`m so "down under" right now, I want my car back - running!

The problem seems to be with the anti-theft system. The "key-lamp" is constantly glowing.
Dealer tried to change the computer, as they thought that maybe bad, but that didnt help. They have also tried to change some kind of module that is for the anti-theft system, but that want help either.
They also say that its NOT the CPS that is wrecked..

Starter is turning normally, and everything seems fine, except that i have no electricity in to the coil.

Is there any way to disable the anti-theft system?? My car is a 1998 model. And has the grey ignition key. As the dealer told me, there is the same anti-theft system in US cars.

I`m so tired of this problem that i could just lay down and cry.....

Man that sucks. Sorry your XJ is having so much trouble. Is there another dealer in your area? You'd think they'd be able to bypass the antitheft system.

Maybe another mechanic can help. I don't know how popular Jeeps are in Norway but here in the US sometimes you can find a mechanic who used to work for a dealer who knows more about Jeeps than the guys the dealer has now. Again, sorry for the trouble you're having...

You said your XJ has a grey key. Can you (or the dealer) determine if the Jeep has the optional "Sentry Key" system? This was not standard on all XJs, but it was available as an option.

If you have it, the key uses some kind of microchip embedded in the key to indicate to a receiver in the steering column that the correct key has been inserted. Replacement keys are available, but they are very expensive even in the Unired States (I think a replcement for my 1999 Grand Cherokee was approximately $200.)

Anything that can be installed can be removed. I am leaving now for a doctor appointment, but this evening I'll look at wiring diagrams to try to figure out a way to remove or by-pass the system.

Thanks Eagle!

I think i have the optional system that you describe - but isnt it strange that none of my two keys will work?

It would be great to try another dealer, but the nearest then is kind a long way from where i live.


I havent tried this yet (and i guess the dealer havent):

Will it be possible to put electricity right in to the coil, or does the anti-theft system disable the fuelpump to? And is it any risk by doing this?

Is it possible that CPS failure disables the anti-theft? The dealer say they get no codes on the CPS...so i guess it isnt that.

I had a quick look at the sentry system (schematic/block diagram) for the 2000s.

The sentry seems to communicate with the ECU and the Guage/panel via a digital(multiplexed) bus. It does not use separate wires/signals. If the sentry module has locked the ECU,
I do not think you will be able to bypass it. The sentry presumebly sends some signal to the ECU to tell it not to start.
The ECU may now be doing alot more than just not providing power to the coil.

I think the current dealer is woefully unqualified to deal with this problem. You need to take it to the other dealer. Call them, describe your problem, and get them to give you an overview of how they intend to resolve your problem. If it sounds reasonable, then take it to them.

This you end up buying an new ECU from these guys??

Now they are able to get codes from the ECU? Old or New??

I don't know how similar the "Sentry Key" system in Jeeps is to the Immobilizer system in my VW, but let me toss in a couple thoughts based on my VW experience:

1. With the Immobilizer, if your key isn't recognized by the car, the engine will fire, and then quit within 1-2 seconds. This brief run may be a VW-specific thing.

2. If you acquire a new key, you have to program the Immobilizer (in the car) to recognize the key. This can be done by a dealer, but MUST be done to ALL keys for the vehicle at the same time - you can't program one today and one tomorrow, or today's key won't work after tomorrow.

You said that the dealer has replaced something related to the security system - have they looked at the key-car interface (the receiver thing that Eagle mentioned)? If that's bad, the car won't work with any key.

At this point, I think more needs to be done to isolate the problem to either your keys or the vehicle:

If they're willing to entertain questions/suggestions, see if they'd be willing to program up a new (never before used) key for your vehicle to see if that will start it up. Alternately, perhaps they could try to reprogram your key to match another Jeep (or something set up to mimic a Jeep's security system). (obviously, this would require careful tracking of what is programmed to talk to what at the end of the service).

If a new key allows the engine to start, I'd bet that there's something wrong with your key(s) - have you dropped them a lot onto hard surfaces/put them through the laundry?

If a new key doesn't start your car, but your key WILL work successfully with another vehicle, I'd say that another look at the Sentry-Key system in your rig is in order.

Of course, this all hinges on the assumption that (like my VW) any Jeep can be programmed to accept any key - can someone with this system confirm/deny this?

HTH,

Rob

1. There's GOTTA be a Jeep TSB on this problem!

2. If a Jeep dealer can't get past this thing, maybe an auto Security System Installer can puzzle thru it.

Best of luck.
-Rick

The sentry radio chip key was not an option until the 1999 model

jma said:

Is it possible that CPS failure disables the anti-theft? The dealer say they get no codes on the CPS...so i guess it isnt that.

Click to expand...

When I unplug the CPS it throws NO I reapeat NONE WHATSOEVER codes..... If they have a spare cps to try, I'd say that'd be the best/easiest test to run.

In regards to the SEntry key, I know that it was available in January of 98 as that was one of the options that I could have gotten

I don't know what to suggest. The system sounds like Sentry Key, and the description of the light glowing fits what my 2000 FSM says about the Sentry Key system ... but then Ivan says that system was not available until 1999. I do not have access to a 1998 Factory Service Manual, so I can't comment.

The 2000 FSM has a brief, 5 page chapter on the system (plus wiring diagrams, which I have not looked at yet). One possibility is that it refers to a fuse in the fuse block. It does not say if this is in the fuse block under the hood, or the fuse block behind the kick plate in the front passenger footwell. Have you checked the fuses yet?

The 2000 FSM says diagnosis must be performed using the DRB scanner. I assume the dealer used this, but it is always dangerous to assume anything. So ... if the fus is good, the next question is "Did the dealer follow the diagnosis procedure in the Factory Service Manual"?

The FSM says the following:

From 2000 FSM
If the SKIS indicator lamp comes on and stays on after the bulb test, it indicates that the SKIM has detected a system malfunction and/or that the SKIS has become inoperative

Click to expand...

SKIS = Sentry Key Immobilizer System

SKIM = Sentry Key Immobilizer Module

That's not very helpful. When the vehicle won't start, you can pretty well guess that the system isn't working. The problem is diagnosing why.

jma -- If it will help, I can photocopy the 5 pages from the FSM for you. They will be in English, of course, but maybe it will help for you to have a description of the diagnosis procedure to discuss with the dealer. I do not have a scanner, but you can send me a PM (private message) with either a postal mail address or a fax number. If you want me to fax it, I know I need to dial 011 for international access, then a country code for Norway -- I will need to know the city code and the telephone (fax) number to enter after the country code.

Kejtar said:

...In regards to the SEntry key, I know that it was available in January of 98 as that was one of the options that I could have gotten

Click to expand...

Kejtar....

Check again... I believe that an Alarm System may have been available for '98s as an option, but not the Sentry Key system. I've looked in my '98 owners manual and my '98 FSM, and neither makes any mention of it. I do have a '99 Cherokee Sales Brochure, and it does mention the Sentry Key system as an option in it.

I remember at the time I bought my '98 in January of '99 (with '99s sitting on the lot), that the Sentry Key system would have been cool, but for the discounted price of a '98, it really wasn't worth it....

Ivan

It might not be relevant. But my 87 mj went through a similar problem of no spark. I replaced all of the possible culprits and finally the ECM. I thought there would be no reson for it to have failed, but it did. A dealer should be able to diagnose this or test it.

If the Jeep is using a SKIM set up it will start but only run for 4-6 seconds, and then shut if self down. It will only do this 3 times after that it compleatly disables the system and will not fire the engin for an hour. Your local repair shop must use a DRBIII (dcx scantool) this is the only thing that will comunicate with your vehicles VTSS system. This computer can disable the vehicles theft system or program the sentury key. I have run in to this problem when people try to start there cars with out programing there new keys.

Thanks for the help!
I will now check with my dealer if they have checked the SKIS/SKIM and other related things to the anti-theft...

Update: I just called the dealer. And the works manager had some (maybe) usefull information.
They can not get any contact with the ECU, even if they try a brand new one! The anti-theft system is also giving codes that says it has no communication with ECU (no power). And, they do NOT get any codes from the ECU (as they cannot reach it).
They have (as i told) tried to change the ECU and the module that operates the anti-theft system.
They had also get a guy from the Jeep importer to look at it..but he couldnt say something right away. But he had heard about ONE similar problem on a -98 model XJ....and he bear in mind that it was a bad grounding, but he had to check it up. And then get back with the solution.
And all wires between ECU and ignition/anti-theft has been checked.
He also said that they had ground on all wires that was supposed to have that, but one wire can maybe fail because of bad contact on the grounding surface when the systems get voltage.

I`m not any expert on this area (thats why i ask you guys), and maybe the works manager is just making something up to have an excuse for not finding the problem?

Anyway, i really think that the dealer should be able to find out of this by themselfs...but no...!

jma said:

Thanks for the help!
.....But he had heard about ONE similar problem on a -98 model XJ....and he bear in mind that it was a bad grounding, but he had to check it up. And then get back with the solution.
And all wires between ECU and ignition/anti-theft has been checked.
He also said that they had ground on all wires that was supposed to have that, but one wire can maybe fail because of bad contact on the grounding surface when the systems get voltage.

Click to expand...

A similar poblem was recently threaded on the Pontiac Grand Am Owners Club Board, but I can't locate the exact thread right now. www.gaownersclub.com
Lots of trials, faliures, Yada yada.

The entire result being a bad ground connection of the ECU to the body panel.

The owner remade the ground, and all was well again.

There are prolly major engineering differences between a GM security system and a DC/Jeep system (unless the engineers all get together for beers and figure out similar ways to sabotage our vehicles ).

It's worth a try to remake the ECU ground, since the XJ is notorious for grounding problems as the unibody ages and rust/debris developes between the body seams, spot welds, etc.

Good luck.
-Rick

Hmpf....now its enough!!
My XJ is still dead as a stone...and i really WANT IT BACK.
Do you understand me? I have a new Warn X8000I winch, a new Warn front bumper, 3,5" Rubicon Express lift kit, Hi-lift....etc etc....all new parts just waiting to be mounted, used (and abused), and my car is dead.....
I`m so tired of this that i consider to swap in a Toyota engine. It shouldnt be possible that things like this can happen on such a new car.

http://www.offroad.no/images/rigs/1205.jpg

Don't wanna sound like a Smart...but find a locksmith that handles the particular style key..................or maybe a professional car thief?

Hi jma, Just wondering if your jeep is up and running, becuase i am having similar problems. I have a 99XJ with the Sentry key, and i have been having the same problems, i will get in my jeep start it up, and seconds later it will turn off, i brought it to the dealership and they thought it was the SKIM module, so they replaced it and cut me a new key, but the problem is still there, so they put another SKIM module in and cut ANOTHER key, but the problem is STILL there. SO they replaced the whole PCM(main computer) but guess what....the problem has not gone away. So like you im very upset that i cant get my new jeep off road. I just put a 3" BDS lift in, 31" BFGoodrich MTS, warn front bumper, warn m8000 winch and other goodies. So if you have any info PLEASE let me know.

Thanks for your time

TIM

Have been offline for a long time..sorry.
But my car is still DEAD! And has been for 4 months now. Car is still at the dealer. And for some reason they have contact with factory and it has high importance. Anyway, is it really so hard to find this problem that the guys who build these cars cant find a solution - THIS IS WEIRD!!!!!
This is a real Jeep-nightmare

Ok, I found my 98 FSM and there is no mention of ANY security system in the 98, nada, nothing. What I find curious is that I just replaced my 98's idiot light panel with a 97 gauge panel and the gauge panel has a 'security' idiot light in the upper left corner, reversed from my 98's 'low washer fluid' light. So they either planned awful far ahead for that security outline or I'm missing a supplement to my 98's service manual that describes the security systems...