waggy 44 front -- turn the knuckles ???

jallen · Nov 3, 2003

i'm about ready to go to the junk yard and pick-up a D44 front out of a waggy for my XJ. before i do, though, i thought that i'd call around and get some pricing information on getting the set-up done (i.e. bracketing and such).

i've talked to a couple different people who are considered quite knowledgable in my area and am getting conflicting reports as to the size of the task.

they all want to take the r.e. tj kit and make a few modifications the r.e. brackets so that it will work on the xj. fine. but the main point of contention is to wheather the knuckles need to be turned to correct the pinion and castor angles or not. one says that if the knuckles aren't turned it will drive like crap and i'll be back in two days to get it fixed. the other says that he's never heard of needing to do this and no one has ever come back or complained when he did this build-up for them.

please advise.

C-ROK · Nov 3, 2003

The waggys have a real flat pinion angle coupled with a low pinion. Depending on your lift height this can be a problem with the yoke binding at full drop unless you turn the axle up to improve the angle. However, you cannot turn the pinion up without turning the knuckles back to maintain the correct caster angle.

I would assume you would want to convert to lock out hubs. If you do, you want have any problems with the pinion angle/u-joint vibe on the street since the driveshaft won't be turning.

There are two ways I could see it "driving like crap":
1. If you didn't use lock out hubs and didn't turn the pinion up, your front drive line vibes could be bad.
2. If you did turn the pinion up but didn't correct the caster your handling could be horrible but have no drive line vibes.

The ideal solution is to turn the knuckles but it obviously makes the project a lot bigger.

Dazz · Nov 3, 2003

Couldn't you just simply adjust the caster angle from the UCA?

BrettM · Nov 3, 2003

Dazz said:
Couldn't you just simply adjust the caster angle from the UCA?

Yes, but:

Originally posted by C-ROK
However, you cannot turn the pinion up without turning the knuckles back to maintain the correct caster angle.
... 2. If you did turn the pinion up but didn't correct the caster your handling could be horrible but have no drive line vibes.

you either get the proper pinion angle or the proper caster, unless you turn the knuckles, then you can get both.

C-ROK · Nov 3, 2003

Dazz said:
Couldn't you just simply adjust the caster angle from the UCA?

Of course, and what would you be doing to your pinion angle at the same time???

Solving any one of the two problems is easy - solving both means turning the knuckles.

BrettM · Nov 3, 2003

C-ROK said:
Of course, and what would you be doing to your pinion angle at the same time???

Solving any one of the two problems is easy - solving both means turning the knuckles.

beat ya to it

jallen · Nov 3, 2003

this was the response from the guy who seems to know the most about this subject:

Popular subject matter today, you are about the 4th guy to contact me with the same question. 44's are a little tricky as the pass upper control arm bracket, we usually use the RE brackets as we don't feel welding to the cast housing is reliable enough to rest your life on. It depends on how clean every thing is, if its all dissasembled and clean then it could run any where from 350-400, plus the brackets. I hear tell that there are no other mods needed for this to be a bolt on but Im not sure I beleive it. Usually the pinion will need to be rotated up to get a good angle and retain some caster. Some of the guys I have talked to this morning tell me Im wrong but I will just have to get one in to see. IF it needs to be changed and my guess is it will for them to drive right it will probably add another 250-300. We do all of this by the hour and each instance is usually different. If the housing is already apart it would probably ony take 4 hrs or so (45$ and hour) we charge 350 to do the whole set up when its all assembled. Do you need gears too? And what kind of locker? What does the wagoneer have in it now, you may be able to use that carrier and put in a Lock right. let me know and I can get you a closer quote on the gears.

this seems to match what you are saying and is consequently correct. this will end up being like $1700 not counting the axle itself. YIKES !!!

Heep · Nov 3, 2003

What would be the best way to turn the knuckles? Would you have to add a flat spot so the could bolt up or could you put in new holes where the knuckle bolts in?

CRASH · Nov 3, 2003

Cut the welds holding the knuckle on, press the knuckles off, turn them the appropriate amount. Reweld.

Pressing them off is usually fun. Not. Heat is usually required, as well as a large puller. And a nice helping of 5 lb mallet.

CRASH

C-ROK · Nov 3, 2003

CRASH said:
Cut the welds holding the knuckle on, press the knuckles off, turn them the appropriate amount. Reweld.

Pressing them off is usually fun. Not. Heat is usually required, as well as a large puller. And a nice helping of 5 lb mallet.

CRASH

Or you can whack 'em in place without actually removing them.

Recent scientific analysis has shown that using a 5 lb sledge, each good whack will result in approximately 1/4 - 1/3 of a degree per whack. Bigger whacks can result in a larger "per whack" degree movement while smaller whacks can actually produce no movement at all if the minimum whack threshold is not met.

However, always remember, as Elmer Fud would say;
"twying to whack it wall wat once is not the white way."

Assuming a 1/3 degree per whack standard, the exact number of whacks to turn the knuckles 6 degrees would be 18.

Armed with this new knowledge feel free to whack away.

rockwerks · Nov 3, 2003

Armed with this new knowledge feel free to whack away

UMMMMM jsut don't whack it off:roflmao:

This is actually how i narrowed my axle from the Knuckles in, I used ny porta band to cut the welds @ the Knuckle, being verrrry verrry careful not to cut the tube, just through the weld...then whacked off....(SNICKER) the knuckles cut the tubes down , cleaned up the tubes and whacked on the knuckles.....(WHACK ON< WHACK OFF)......(SNICKER), tack welded then took it to a shop who finished the welds with a 480 V Esab tig unit

jallen · Nov 4, 2003

if keeping the origional HP D30 then, at what point (i.e. because of how much lift) does knuckle rotation be necessary?

CRASH · Nov 4, 2003

Depends if you have hubs or not. Most people run 6 inches of lift on an HP 30 with no problems.

HP axles are going to have much fewer bind issues than an LP axle.

In short, I wouldn't worry about it.

CRASH

Jeff 98XJ WI · Nov 4, 2003

It is my opinion that if one were to go through the trouble of turning the knuckles, one would be better off to do a high pinion D44 as the amount of work is equal and the end product is better. One could follow along with my D44 build on www.madxj.com if they would like to see a home built unit detailed. Jeff

Dazz · Nov 4, 2003

That why it helps to have your own tools (welder, angle grinder, etc..).
One could do this themselves at a fraction of what the shops are asking for labor!

BrettM · Nov 5, 2003

Jeff 98XJ WI said:
It is my opinion that if one were to go through the trouble of turning the knuckles, one would be better off to do a high pinion D44 as the amount of work is equal and the end product is better. One could follow along with my D44 build on www.madxj.com if they would like to see a home built unit detailed. Jeff

you would be right except that I can do it myself for a couple dollars worth of grinding wheels and MIG wire, and a HP 44 housing would cost a couple hundred.

even if you have a shop do it, then there is the issue of narrowing it (assuming you want near stock width) and finding Waggy shafts, so you'll still end up paying more.

C-ROK · Nov 5, 2003

I agree completely.

I ran a low pinion front 44 for years with never a problem. Of course that was long before I discovered the internet and found out how horrible they are

Jeff 98XJ WI · Nov 6, 2003

I'm not saying they are horrible, but if you are going to cut the welds and move the knuckes, you could spend a bit more cash for sure to get a HP D44, but then you simply do the same amount of work as far as cutting the welds for the knuckles, hammering them into position, checking caster, building suspension mounting brackets, etc. and when you are done, you have a better product. The only extra costs would be a High Pinion D44 blank housing. I think I paid $50 for mine. I used the Waggy outers and shafts from the waggy axle I had. I did get Chevy flat top knuckles, high steer arms, gears and a locker, but that would be needed with the low pinion axle too. It just seems to me that for the same amount of work, one can fab up a HP 44 compared to rotating the knuckles and adding suspension mounts on a low pinion D44 with minimal extra cost. I like the high pinion axle because it makes for a much better driveshaft angle, the shaft is up out of the terrain better, and the gears are running in the proper orientation for increased strength compared to a low pinion front axle. Jeff

C-ROK · Nov 6, 2003

And I think all your points are valid but I do believe the internet has dramatically over-emphasized the benefits of a front HP 44.

Chevy front 44s and Jeep were all LP as far as I know. I ran a 10" lift, 38" tires, 5.13 gears, 100:1 final crawl ratio and a 250hp SB 350 and never broke the gears or had driveline angle problems.

Getting a front Ford housing for $50 is a very good deal and one that I think would be hard to reproduce for everyone.

I think if you already have the housing, there's better places to put your money and time than into trying to improve on something that IMO is perfectly fine to begin with.

BrettM · Nov 6, 2003

If I found a HP44 housing for $50 and found a good deal on HP44 gears, I would swap my Waggy stuff over for sure. But that hasn't been happening for me, and I'm not worried about it.

yes I would prefer a HP, but it would probably cost around $300 to do that for me, which just isn't worth it. If I could do it for $100, I would.

waggy 44 front -- turn the knuckles ???

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