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Intellect
November 8th, 2017, 07:24
So i have an issue that has gotten worse and worse.

1995 4.0 4wd jeep cherokee 4.0


Present day - if it sits for over a day, it takes multiple trys to get it to stay running. As in, i crank it, it dies, so i flood it with gas, the second i let off gas it dies. I have to force feed it gas for 1-5 minutes, to get it to stay on.

Once this has been done, i can drive it for HOURS in the woods..highway.. etc.

It has done this for ages. But started as, having to prime the key twice.. than having to prime 3-4 times... than it moved to, having to have it turn over twice ( turn key and try to crank, stop, turn key and try to crank again ) .. than turn over 4-5 fimes (same as last parenthesis) . Than present day, its a miracle to get it to stay on. After flooding it with gas and a few times, itll idle beautifully, AND can uncrank and recrank with NO issue.



Im on my way to be ase certified, so i know a bit about vehicles. Ive swapped a few mustang motors, had a foxbody growing up, etc... So this jeep is REALLY a puzzle.


I do NOT have a fuel gauge set, but will rent one if itll help me determine something new, as i already am pretty sure its fuel.


Things ive checked, iat, iac, tps, cps, map(3 different brands)

Fuel pressure regulator (tried 3 different ones, from different companies)

Fuel pump ( 2 offbrands, now a bosch)

Fuel filter (2 times, forget brand)


If the jeep sits for a day, i can take a screw driver to the schrader valve, and get air, and no gas. Maybe a drip.

This leads me to think a fuel issue/fuel bleed off issue/leak.

Ive checked this xj up and down, do not see a gas leak.

The fuel pump and fuel regulator are the only spots that have check valves, both parts ive replaced at LEAST 3 times, thinking "oh maybe bad out of box, or bad brand"

Ive been chasing this issue for a while, but now that it has gotten worse, i NEED to figure it out.


The jeep has 247,000, rebuilt transfer case. Engine runs smooth as butter (when it finally isnt fuel starved) , can tell pevious owner did some top end maintenance. Ive had the jeep last 10k ish.


Random facts, the battery is good, it reads good with my multimeter, its only a few months old as it is.

New alternator, oem spec.

Newer o2 bosch.

Newer cap, plug, wires, etc

Jeep is not a daily, but it isnt a mud bogger, its a weekend grocery getter, that sees an offroad event once a month if that.

Who knows, maybe im nuts, maybe its NOT fuel, maybe i am WAY OFF, this is why im asking in here.


I have had 2 Jeep techs of 20 plus years tell me they are clueless after hearing my story in depth, yall got the short version.

I will be forever grateful to anyone who helps me pinpoint this issue. Its only initial start up, once shes up and running, she is fine. Its the getting her running thats a b&t$h.

Starter is good. Spark is good. Ignition coil is good. Oil pressure is good.

Ive always went with the old... If it walks like a duck, and quaks like a duck... It's probably a duck, saying. Thats why i am led to think it is a check valve, fuel pressure being held, issue.


The only thing NOT new, are injectors, but a bad injector to my know should cause these issues, ive had my fair share of bad injectors, and these seem fine (granted i plan to change them for good measures, if my jeep starts behaving soon)

So i know i sort of rambled some, but i figured the more information the better.

1995 4.0 inline 6, automatic, 4wd, 246-247,000 , 5.5" lift, 35"s, 1 ton steering, and other goodies (if i didnt have so much into it, id just start fresh, but $6k+ later ... Lol)

I am newer to forums so i apologize if i didnt follow proper ediquiete, if your seeing this on fb than ignore the last sentence.

In the end, jeep takes 2-6 cranks, holding the gas peddle to the floor, to get it started, and that use to be it, once started it was fine, but now i have to CONTINUE to hold the gas, at 4krpm constantly for a few minutes, to get it to idle without dieng.


The kicker... INTERMENTANT issue.

Could go out tomorrow and crank it up no issue, or have to play with it for 25 minutes of gas flooding.


Excuse any typos.

Added info, i get no codes. Once a code 13, but that went away.

Also, i never replaced the the fuel pump ASSEMBLY, only the actual pump.

The pump doesnt always whine when i first turn the key to accessory, sometimes it takes a few seconds, sometimes it takes a few key cycles, this is with any pump i put in there... Electrical issue? But once i get the s.o.b running. I can sit there and uncrank and recrank it non stop, as if it was a new jeep.


Im scratching my head so hard over here.

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Intellect
November 8th, 2017, 07:30
So i have an issue that has gotten worse and worse.

1995 4.0 4wd jeep cherokee 4.0


Present day - if it sits for over a day, it takes multiple trys to get it to stay running. As in, i crank it, it dies, so i flood it with gas, the second i let off gas it dies. I have to force feed it gas for 1-5 minutes, to get it to stay on.

Once this has been done, i can drive it for HOURS in the woods..highway.. etc.

It has done this for ages. But started as, having to prime the key twice.. than having to prime 3-4 times... than it moved to, having to have it turn over twice ( turn key and try to crank, stop, turn key and try to crank again ) .. than turn over 4-5 fimes (same as last parenthesis) . Than present day, its a miracle to get it to stay on. After flooding it with gas and a few times, itll idle beautifully, AND can uncrank and recrank with NO issue.



Im on my way to be ase certified, so i know a bit about vehicles. Ive swapped a few mustang motors, had a foxbody growing up, etc... So this jeep is REALLY a puzzle.


I do NOT have a fuel gauge set, but will rent one if itll help me determine something new, as i already am pretty sure its fuel.


Things ive checked, iat, iac, tps, cps, map(3 different brands)

Fuel pressure regulator (tried 3 different ones, from different companies)

Fuel pump ( 2 offbrands, now a bosch)

Fuel filter (2 times, forget brand)


If the jeep sits for a day, i can take a screw driver to the schrader valve, and get air, and no gas. Maybe a drip.

This leads me to think a fuel issue/fuel bleed off issue/leak.

Ive checked this xj up and down, do not see a gas leak.

The fuel pump and fuel regulator are the only spots that have check valves, both parts ive replaced at LEAST 3 times, thinking "oh maybe bad out of box, or bad brand"

Ive been chasing this issue for a while, but now that it has gotten worse, i NEED to figure it out.


The jeep has 247,000, rebuilt transfer case. Engine runs smooth as butter (when it finally isnt fuel starved) , can tell pevious owner did some top end maintenance. Ive had the jeep last 10k ish.


Random facts, the battery is good, it reads good with my multimeter, its only a few months old as it is.

New alternator, oem spec.

Newer o2 bosch.

Newer cap, plug, wires, etc

Jeep is not a daily, but it isnt a mud bogger, its a weekend grocery getter, that sees an offroad event once a month if that.

Who knows, maybe im nuts, maybe its NOT fuel, maybe i am WAY OFF, this is why im asking in here.


I have had 2 Jeep techs of 20 plus years tell me they are clueless after hearing my story in depth, yall got the short version.

I will be forever grateful to anyone who helps me pinpoint this issue. Its only initial start up, once shes up and running, she is fine. Its the getting her running thats a b&t$h.

Starter is good. Spark is good. Ignition coil is good. Oil pressure is good.

Ive always went with the old... If it walks like a duck, and quaks like a duck... It's probably a duck, saying. Thats why i am led to think it is a check valve, fuel pressure being held, issue.


The only thing NOT new, are injectors, but a bad injector to my know should cause these issues, ive had my fair share of bad injectors, and these seem fine (granted i plan to change them for good measures, if my jeep starts behaving soon)

So i know i sort of rambled some, but i figured the more information the better.

1995 4.0 inline 6, automatic, 4wd, 246-247,000 , 5.5" lift, 35"s, 1 ton steering, and other goodies (if i didnt have so much into it, id just start fresh, but $6k+ later ... Lol)

I am newer to forums so i apologize if i didnt follow proper ediquiete, if your seeing this on fb than ignore the last sentence.

In the end, jeep takes 2-6 cranks, holding the gas peddle to the floor, to get it started, and that use to be it, once started it was fine, but now i have to CONTINUE to hold the gas, at 4krpm constantly for a few minutes, to get it to idle without dieng.


The kicker... INTERMENTANT issue.

Could go out tomorrow and crank it up no issue, or have to play with it for 25 minutes of gas flooding.


Excuse any typos.

Added info, i get no codes. Once a code 13, but that went away.

Also, i never replaced the the fuel pump ASSEMBLY, only the actual pump.

The pump doesnt always whine when i first turn the key to accessory, sometimes it takes a few seconds, sometimes it takes a few key cycles, this is with any pump i put in there... Electrical issue? But once i get the s.o.b running. I can sit there and uncrank and recrank it non stop, as if it was a new jeep.


Im scratching my head so hard over here.

Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using TapatalkForgot to add, injectors are oem, think a leaky injector could cause all of this heart ache?

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Anak
November 8th, 2017, 07:55
Leaky injector would be the next thing to pursue. Possibly more than one.

A fuel pressure gauge would certainly be a helpful tool.

The best thing to do at this point is to get a fuel pressure gauge and a pair of needle nose vise-grips. Put on the fuel pressure gauge, get the Jeep running, check the fuel pressure, shut the Jeep down and immediately clamp off the fuel line back by the fuel filter where it is rubber and can be collapsed/shut off by the vice-grips. Now go see what the fuel gauge does.

If the fuel gauge holds steady, and continues to hold steady overnight, then you will know that you are losing you fuel pressure back into the tank.

Hmm...

It occurs to me that you have a return line too. I haven't had to play with one of those yet. You might need two pairs of vice-grips. Hopefully somebody who knows the earlier fuel systems better can chime in on that front.

At any rate, isolate the fuel system components so that you can determine if you are losing fuel to the front (injectors) or rear (fuel pump).

If you are losing fuel to the injectors then you know what your next step is.

If you are losing fuel back into the tank then we need to figure out what is going on to allow that. Perhaps a loose hose inside the tank? Or perhaps a hole in the steel lines in the pump/sending unit assembly?

At this point my bet is going to rest on injectors, but you would be best off putting in some diagnostic efforts first.

Intellect
November 8th, 2017, 10:58
Thank you Anak, i plan to rent a gauge friday, i havethe day off friday. i thought about it today during work and have been wondering injectors myself. Since that is the only part that is oem. (At 247,000 miles).

I do not know these style fuel system that well either, i thought of the clamp before fuel filter a few days ago, but the return style throws me off, i think i have to clamp somewhere else but im not sure where?

I have an offroad event all weekend and it would be cool to solve this before that, no one has injectors in stock locally. BUT i have 4 oem ones from a friends part out free. So if i find an injectors bad, or two, i have spares to get me by.

So what i need to learn, is ....1) how to isolate the check valve (in fuel pump, and pressure regulator) from injector rail

2) if our theory of bleed of at rail is right, how do i diagnose WHICH injector? Undo rail, but keep them pluged in, and prime the system, lay down some paper towels, and see which leaks over the spand of a few hours? usually an hour is all it takes.

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Intellect
November 8th, 2017, 11:20
Anak to add icing on the cake here, my gf and friend who tag along offroad, HAVE mentioned a faint fuel smell when i pop the hood to check fluids. (Probably useless inflrmation, they are car illeterate, but when im in the woods in florida, the pollen has my sniffer out of commision LOL)



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RCP Phx
November 8th, 2017, 11:20
It a bad idea to install any injector that isn't in a "matched" set.

Intellect
November 8th, 2017, 11:35
It a bad idea to install any injector that isn't in a "matched" set.Really? Ivenever heard this. I understand to not put a brand new with a set of used for obvious reasons. But ive never heard they are "sets" matched together. Because anytime you buy them at auto stores they are sold single, not matched in groups of six or 4 or 8 depending vehicle.


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Intellect
November 8th, 2017, 11:35
Leaky injector would be the next thing to pursue. Possibly more than one.

A fuel pressure gauge would certainly be a helpful tool.

The best thing to do at this point is to get a fuel pressure gauge and a pair of needle nose vise-grips. Put on the fuel pressure gauge, get the Jeep running, check the fuel pressure, shut the Jeep down and immediately clamp off the fuel line back by the fuel filter where it is rubber and can be collapsed/shut off by the vice-grips. Now go see what the fuel gauge does.

If the fuel gauge holds steady, and continues to hold steady overnight, then you will know that you are losing you fuel pressure back into the tank.

Hmm...

It occurs to me that you have a return line too. I haven't had to play with one of those yet. You might need two pairs of vice-grips. Hopefully somebody who knows the earlier fuel systems better can chime in on that front.

At any rate, isolate the fuel system components so that you can determine if you are losing fuel to the front (injectors) or rear (fuel pump).

If you are losing fuel to the injectors then you know what your next step is.

If you are losing fuel back into the tank then we need to figure out what is going on to allow that. Perhaps a loose hose inside the tank? Or perhaps a hole in the steel lines in the pump/sending unit assembly?

At this point my bet is going to rest on injectors, but you would be best off putting in some diagnostic efforts first.Im new to naxja, relised i replied wrong at first, my mistake, my replies are bellow.




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RCP Phx
November 8th, 2017, 12:59
Really? Ivenever heard this. I understand to not put a brand new with a set of used for obvious reasons. But ive never heard they are "sets" matched together. Because anytime you buy them at auto stores they are sold single, not matched in groups of six or 4 or 8 depending vehicle.


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You could get lucky, but you also might have one cyl not running right (rich/lean). The ECU only sees the injectors as all the same!

Intellect
November 8th, 2017, 13:24
You could get lucky, but you also might have one cyl not running right (rich/lean). The ECU only sees the injectors as all the same!Im not following, if its in working order its working, if its faulty its faulty, how will replacing just the bad injector hurt the others? If they are all within ohm load and spec.

When you buy them new they are single sold not biased into sets of 6

So?

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RCP Phx
November 8th, 2017, 17:28
Im not following, if its in working order its working, if its faulty its faulty, how will replacing just the bad injector hurt the others? If they are all within ohm load and spec.

When you buy them new they are single sold not biased into sets of 6

So?

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No matter what they do to try and replicate the factory results, they can't! Your old injectors are not going to put out the same, PERIOD!

BCKNBLK
November 8th, 2017, 17:48
Drop the fuel tank and give that assembly in there a very good look-over. You are describing the exact problem I had several years ago. Turns out the fuel pump/filter/float assembly had a leak on it. The pump worked fine, but there was a leak on the unit itself and was leaking fuel right back into the tank. Finally discovered this after taking it out again, and priming it off the vehicle. It started pissing fuel back into the tank. Thats where my pressure was going. Dropped in a brand new assembly (brand new), re-installed the tank, etc. Ran like a champ.

Intellect
November 8th, 2017, 17:50
Leaky injector would be the next thing to pursue. Possibly more than one.

A fuel pressure gauge would certainly be a helpful tool.

The best thing to do at this point is to get a fuel pressure gauge and a pair of needle nose vise-grips. Put on the fuel pressure gauge, get the Jeep running, check the fuel pressure, shut the Jeep down and immediately clamp off the fuel line back by the fuel filter where it is rubber and can be collapsed/shut off by the vice-grips. Now go see what the fuel gauge does.

If the fuel gauge holds steady, and continues to hold steady overnight, then you will know that you are losing you fuel pressure back into the tank.

Hmm...

It occurs to me that you have a return line too. I haven't had to play with one of those yet. You might need two pairs of vice-grips. Hopefully somebody who knows the earlier fuel systems better can chime in on that front.

At any rate, isolate the fuel system components so that you can determine if you are losing fuel to the front (injectors) or rear (fuel pump).

If you are losing fuel to the injectors then you know what your next step is.

If you are losing fuel back into the tank then we need to figure out what is going on to allow that. Perhaps a loose hose inside the tank? Or perhaps a hole in the steel lines in the pump/sending unit assembly?

At this point my bet is going to rest on injectors, but you would be best off putting in some diagnostic efforts first.I rented a pressure gauge..

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Intellect
November 8th, 2017, 17:56
Drop the fuel tank and give that assembly in there a very good look-over. You are describing the exact problem I had several years ago. Turns out the fuel pump/filter/float assembly had a leak on it. The pump worked fine, but there was a leak on the unit itself and was leaking fuel right back into the tank. Finally discovered this after taking it out again, and priming it off the vehicle. It started pissing fuel back into the tank. Thats where my pressure was going. Dropped in a brand new assembly (brand new), re-installed the tank, etc. Ran like a champ.I just seen your comment.. thats my next task after i do a gauge test... How do i do that on a return style fuel cherokee?

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Intellect
November 8th, 2017, 18:21
So my fuel pressure is 30psi when its on, and goes to 0 when off, there isnt even enough time for me to clamp anything its so fast...

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four_shot
November 8th, 2017, 18:50
You have a fuel leak. It should hold pressure for hours. Try clamping the return line and running the test again.If it holds, the leak is on the return side. if it drops, its on the pressure side.

Intellect
November 8th, 2017, 18:50
https://youtu.be/VqjuAqeMZWA

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Intellect
November 8th, 2017, 19:04
You have a fuel leak. It should hold pressure for hours. Try clamping the return line and running the test again.If it holds, the leak is on the return side. if it drops, its on the pressure side.So I did as you suggested I clamp the return line and Prime that the system in gauge shot up to 60 because the return line is Vise grip and it slowly bled down to 40 mid-30s but stops right there which is where it should hold anyway so it isn't bleeding off at the rail since it drops from 6230 correct it only drops from 60 to 30 because it is over pressurized correct

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Intellect
November 8th, 2017, 19:06
You have a fuel leak. It should hold pressure for hours. Try clamping the return line and running the test again.If it holds, the leak is on the return side. if it drops, its on the pressure side.WOW.. voice to text butchered that! I clamped it at the return line.. i primed it... It shot to 60 and lowered to 30-40 ish, and stays there. So im wrong for thinking the rail is the culprit correct? It drops 60 to 30-40 because 60 is over pressure ised. Am i thinking logically?


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Anak
November 8th, 2017, 19:07
Leaking down that fast does not sound reasonable for an injector. Or several. If it were injectors your oil should be full of gasoline by now. It should be simple enough to check the oil just with the dipstick. Maybe give it a good sniff too. If still in doubt you could change the oil. Then try to light the drain pan. Well, maybe not... :fuse:

I can't imagine the vehicle would even run well with injectors that didn't shut down.

I think revisiting the tank end of things is the best bet right now. The suggestion of trying to run the pump assembly outside of the tank is a reasonable one, if you can figure out how to do it safely.

Intellect
November 8th, 2017, 19:08
Leaking down that fast does not sound reasonable for an injector. Or several. If it were injectors your oil should be full of gasoline by now. It should be simple enough to check the oil just with the dipstick. Maybe give it a good sniff too. If still in doubt you could change the oil. Then try to light the drain pan. Well, maybe not... :fuse:

I can't imagine the vehicle would even run well with injectors that didn't shut down.

I think revisiting the tank end of things is the best bet right now. The suggestion of trying to run the pump assembly outside of the tank is a reasonable one, if you can figure out how to do it safely.How do i safely do that?

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Anak
November 8th, 2017, 19:18
Ask BCKNBLK how he went about it. Or how he would go about it if he were to do it again.

Intellect
November 8th, 2017, 19:32
Drop the fuel tank and give that assembly in there a very good look-over. You are describing the exact problem I had several years ago. Turns out the fuel pump/filter/float assembly had a leak on it. The pump worked fine, but there was a leak on the unit itself and was leaking fuel right back into the tank. Finally discovered this after taking it out again, and priming it off the vehicle. It started pissing fuel back into the tank. Thats where my pressure was going. Dropped in a brand new assembly (brand new), re-installed the tank, etc. Ran like a champ.How would one go about this? I'm under my jeep with the assembly out and a cup of gas lol...

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four_shot
November 8th, 2017, 19:48
I'm thinking there is an internal leak at the fuel pressure regulator. I just haven't had enough of them apart to know what's missing. He's got both o-rings on the regulator. I thought there was a screen that spaced the small o-ring further into the socket. but that may be on a GM system.

I'm at a loss.





Edit: the screen I was thinking of is found on the Chevy Vortec 4.3's. (so it doesn't apply here)

four_shot
November 8th, 2017, 19:54
How would one go about this? I'm under my jeep with the assembly out and a cup of gas lol...

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I'd try a clean drain pan and enough gas to submerge the filter sock.

Intellect
November 8th, 2017, 20:11
Low and behold i have progress who is still awake!? First a question... What SHOULD the system hold psi wise, and over what time period....instead of losing INSTANT pressure, it went fron 30 to 20 ish when i shut her down, than over the past half hour its down to 15... Now down to 12... I THINK it kight hold 12, ill explain what i found later on, but for now need the pressure answers please... I promise you WILL laugh ..

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Intellect
November 8th, 2017, 20:38
The little rubber hose at the bottom was leaking, i sat the sock filter guy in a cup of gas, ran the pump, and watched as gas trickled out of the bottom of the hose.... I added a better hose clamp and actually used two... It still lighlt lighty leaks just enough to notice its wet, is that normal? The hose and clamps are fine, and it holds 25 psi after shut down fine, than 15, than an hour later drops to 9/10 psi... SOO


, the 30psi during running to 0psi when switched off, was ALL THANKS TO A HOSE CLAMP!


IS IT ok that it SLOWLY bleeds down to 9/10psi or do i have a second issue at hand?

Should i keep buying different hose clamps till one leaks 0%? Lolhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171109/bc18f4ddcd48a5bc520eec7125de05a4.jpg

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Intellect
November 8th, 2017, 20:41
To clarify... Jeep had 30psi cranked, 0psi as soon as it was switched off.


The fuel pump in cup of gas

When cranked would leak, when switched off would leak

I put new hose clamps

Now when cranked it DRIPS ever so barely, and when switched off it leaks ZERO and pressure dies SLOWLY from 25 to 9/10 over an hour of time.

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Intellect
November 8th, 2017, 20:48
Im just being super nervous now that i found out the flowing hose was the issue, this clamps a LOT tighter, im just super anxiety over the fact ANY gas leaks from under hose LOL. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171109/233fff4ffd5e61bd1c5ac4a503e1ffb6.jpg

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Anak
November 8th, 2017, 22:01
The 30 psi is about right.

The leaking down is still not right. But, it is nice to see that you have made progress on that front.

A couple of details regarding that hose. First, make sure it is the correct type of hose. It should be SAE 30R10. If in doubt, you should be able to get that from a Napa auto parts (Linky: http://www.napabeltshose.com/~/media/napa/documents/napa-submersible-hose.pdf?la=en )

Second, get yourself some fuel injection hose clamps. I don't know that they are generally required inside the tank, but given the situation I would not hesitate to spend the $5 or so to get the best clamp possible for the job. FI hose clamps should do a better job.

Once you have things under control at the sending unit/pump assembly, if you still have a leak down situation, then go back to clamping off the fuel line to see if you are losing pressure at the injectors.

You may have more than one issue at play here.

ETA: Thank you for posting up your progress on the problem. All too often solutions are proposed but no follow up ever happens, and thus nothing is learned by the rest of us. And I am sure it is often really simple stuff, like that leaking hose, and no one wants to share something that others might think is stupid. I am certainly not laughing at you for a leaking hose that can't be identified without taking things apart and testing them outside their normal environment. Thank you.

Intellect
November 9th, 2017, 06:58
The 30 psi is about right.

The leaking down is still not right. But, it is nice to see that you have made progress on that front.

A couple of details regarding that hose. First, make sure it is the correct type of hose. It should be SAE 30R10. If in doubt, you should be able to get that from a Napa auto parts (Linky: http://www.napabeltshose.com/~/media/napa/documents/napa-submersible-hose.pdf?la=en )

Second, get yourself some fuel injection hose clamps. I don't know that they are generally required inside the tank, but given the situation I would not hesitate to spend the $5 or so to get the best clamp possible for the job. FI hose clamps should do a better job.

Once you have things under control at the sending unit/pump assembly, if you still have a leak down situation, then go back to clamping off the fuel line to see if you are losing pressure at the injectors.

You may have more than one issue at play here.

ETA: Thank you for posting up your progress on the problem. All too often solutions are proposed but no follow up ever happens, and thus nothing is learned by the rest of us. And I am sure it is often really simple stuff, like that leaking hose, and no one wants to share something that others might think is stupid. I am certainly not laughing at you for a leaking hose that can't be identified without taking things apart and testing them outside their normal environment. Thank you.I try to keep folks updated, especially when they take the time to help me. Plus i hate when i google a problem and there are countless forums left open ended. Im sure someone else has/will have this issue, and i hope this thread helps.

Do you know the diameter of the hose i need? They have a few options, i might swing by napa on my way home from work today. (I know the type of hose, not size)

This all adds up too, because the old pump and this pump did it, guess what? When i replaced the oreilly pump with the bosch pump i reused the rubber line that came with the oreillys pump. Who knew that 2 minutes saved of time would cause all this heart ache.

Those "fuel injection hose clamps", those are what the bosch pump came with, the oreillys pump had the average kind.

Last night when i found that leak i put the "fuel injection" hose clamp on it, and that helped the immediate pressure drop, but it still slowly dropped from 34 to 0 overnight. But it still slightly slightly SLIGHTLY trickles, but a slight trickle over 10 hours can cause 0psi, atleast i assume. Am i right?


SO hopefully its this stupid rubber hose. The one that came with the bosch is in its brand new zippy bag in my shed still, i bet that would solve this, but i mise well splurge on line at napa just incase.(if i can figure diameter out while being at work)

Thanks again a bunch!

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Anak
November 9th, 2017, 07:22
If there is trickle then that is pressure slipping away. Definitely replace that hose if it isn't sealing up with the right clamps.

I don't know the hose diameter, and I would have to pull mine out of the tank to measure it. SWAG is 5/16", but I would want confirmation.

In theory the piece of hose that came with the pump should be the right stuff. I would at least expect Bosch to get it right. It would not surprise me if whichever chicom low bidder supplied O'Reilly's got it wrong. Given all the time you have into this thus far it would make sense to buy the known right stuff just to try to wrap this up for good.

Intellect
November 9th, 2017, 16:22
My napa was out of line, i am going to swap the rubber line withthe one that came with the bosch, and make sure i have "fuel injector" style hose clamps on top and bottom.

Im doing this tonight, i highly believe its this pesky hose causing these issues,

Lets say its not, if all else fails, im jimmy rigging a check valve in line, just foe the weekend, is this safe? Ive heard it is and isnt... Mine is return style so i think it should be. Any good write ups? Im just asking incase it comes down to worse case. Id need diameter and parts to buy and who sells it retail wise.


Thank you so much guys!!

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Intellect
November 9th, 2017, 17:29
Well i found somewhere with the rubber line... Tried two times (the rubber line), and 4 different fuel injector clamps, no matter what i do itll still weep ever so slightly... Fixing to put an inline check valve and call it a dang day. Im uploading a video as im sure i sound uneducated over discussing a hose clamp and hose, but maybe it IS suppose to weap some? I imqgine not but no clue why it does no matter what. Any type of gas safe sealant I could use? https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171110/04c062f5a344b043a96bdc6abc547230.jpg

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Intellect
November 9th, 2017, 17:33
Here is a video, it is "unlisted" so you have to click my link to see it... Maybe im overlooking the obvious?

https://youtu.be/o2t-cCKskJs

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Intellect
November 9th, 2017, 17:35
Skip to the end of this video to see the initial leak, it is a lot better but not 100%

https://youtu.be/D0KpcYT_m7E

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Intellect
November 9th, 2017, 17:45
Should this hole be plugged with something? Circled spot. That's how bosch pump came. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171110/f2621afa1afee4725aa5fde8f8407e96.jpg

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Intellect
November 9th, 2017, 19:08
If there is trickle then that is pressure slipping away. Definitely replace that hose if it isn't sealing up with the right clamps.

I don't know the hose diameter, and I would have to pull mine out of the tank to measure it. SWAG is 5/16", but I would want confirmation.

In theory the piece of hose that came with the pump should be the right stuff. I would at least expect Bosch to get it right. It would not surprise me if whichever chicom low bidder supplied O'Reilly's got it wrong. Given all the time you have into this thus far it would make sense to buy the known right stuff just to try to wrap this up for good.Sorry to spam, so to go along with my bad luck, the hose had an inner slit, i went and got more hose and the hose doesnt weap anymore.. talk about bad luck! Lmao

So it builds to 30 cranked, kind of bounces between 29-30

Than when off goes to 34, its dropped to like 32 over ten minutes... Lets see what it does overnight. If it reads 0 in the morning, in line valve it is!

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Anak
November 9th, 2017, 19:48
I think you must have collected just about every failure mode possible with that little piece of hose.

Glad you finally seem to have the piece sorted out.

I doubt you will have 0 psi in the morning. If you are in the 20s I would say good enough. At this point I am betting your starting problem will be solved.

Intellect
November 10th, 2017, 09:33
Is there way to "add friends" on here Anak? Youve been a big help.

Update on fuel issue... I went to the junkyard for an electrical piece today, and noticed that the fuel pressure regulator bracket looked different than mine... I snagged it and just got home, swapped it with mine, and low and behold at idle i went from 30psi to 50psi.... probably still have a bleed off issue knowing my luck this week.

But unless you had the two brackets side by side you would not notice mine was bent... So that was another issue solved.


So far, leaky hose was fixed on pump, and this fuel pressure regulator bracket lol. Oh lord.


My xj had the original owner 1995-2015 (older lady who drive it to Publix and home for 240,000 ish miles) , than a kid who shouldnt touch cars had it 2015-2016, than late 2016 to now ive had it... Its in good shape besides stuff the kid touched lol. The original owner never even used the 4wd, had to rebuild the t-caze but otherwise was a good xj

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Intellect
November 10th, 2017, 09:35
My bracket left, new one on right. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171110/27025ce869b5bdf2587482cf99d6192e.jpg

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Anak
November 10th, 2017, 09:50
Update on fuel issue... I went to the junkyard for an electrical piece today, and noticed that the fuel pressure regulator bracket looked different than mine... I snagged it and just got home, swapped it with mine, and low and behold at idle i went from 30psi to 50psi.... probably still have a bleed off issue knowing my luck this week.



Umm...

30 psi is closer to where a '95 should be. Unless you have the vacuum disconnected, and then it should be 39.

50 psi is more in the range of where my '96 and later models are supposed to be.

:dunno:

Intellect
November 10th, 2017, 12:41
Umm...

30 psi is closer to where a '95 should be. Unless you have the vacuum disconnected, and then it should be 39.

50 psi is more in the range of where my '96 and later models are supposed to be.

:dunno:To add to the mystery, if i undo the vacuum line on the regulator it holds 30 when off...

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Anak
November 10th, 2017, 13:59
I got nuffin...

Intellect
November 10th, 2017, 14:29
Omg i have developed piston slap... https://youtu.be/3ze5arrv0f4

Im saying f it and hoping for the best this weekend. Curious if this related to the fuel pressure issue.

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Intellect
November 10th, 2017, 23:52
I got nuffin...Gosh darn cherokee lol. Well ive decided whats the worse that can happen? Ill cycle the key a bunch and hope for the best. Once on its perfectly fine. Now something i noticed. Sometimes the second i turn the key on i get the whuuuuur. Sometimes it takes up to 15, seconds. But that shouldnt have to do with it HOLDING fuel, correct?

If that is correct than after my event, if my jeeps behaving good, im giving her new injectors and if that fails, the bmw inline check valve. (Return style fuel system) so should be ok. Plus *nock on wood* i carry a fire extinguisher.




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Intellect
November 13th, 2017, 13:35
I got nuffin...Not to beat a dead horse, but back at the fuel issue. It drove fine this weekends 400 mile round trip. With plenty of offroad fun. Only gave me an issue when it sat overnight. I got a nice fuel pressure set (returned the cheapo to autozone).

It dawned on me, i have a return style fuel set up, i was told to clamp the return line. But neverthe feed line. When i clamped the return line i had the fuel bleed off still, but i didnt know if it was a leak in feed line/pressure reg/or injectors.

Today as i cleaned the dust off her i ran a few pressure tests. But this time i clamped the supply AND return line. It drops 10psi within 30 minutes like clockwork. Ive tried countless pressure regulators so i doubt thats it. So im ordering new injectors. (As much as i hate the "throw parts at a problem" method) , because with both lines clamped. It is 100% isolated to the rail alone (i would think). Only thing that gets me is how when i removed the rail and laid it on paper towels, i didnt SEE any gas leakage? Maybe its so minoot that a human eye cant see it? Or internally in the injectors?


Aure your tired of this thread as long as everyone else here..


But a lot of food for thought.


I ordered some motocraft ev1 4 hole upgrades from a guy online. Whatever the 91-95 injector styles are called, i forget. But there motorcraft or bosch i forget, but he rebuilds them and gives them lifetime warrantys. And even threw in a free extra for my trail bag. So lets see if these solve the issue... (Knowing my luck, probably not)

I plan to keep this thread alive till i resolve the issue.. i never give up!

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four_shot
November 13th, 2017, 17:25
It's a start.

Leak down with both lines clamped pretty much points to injectors. Especially if there is no sign of external leakage. Make sure to clean the injector holes in the intake with a bore brush of some sort, and use a small coating of engine oil or bearing grease on the o-rings when installing. (Dont use silicone based greases or sprays due to oxygen sensor damage.)

Intellect
November 17th, 2017, 11:08
It's a start.

Leak down with both lines clamped pretty much points to injectors. Especially if there is no sign of external leakage. Make sure to clean the injector holes in the intake with a bore brush of some sort, and use a small coating of engine oil or bearing grease on the o-rings when installing. (Dont use silicone based greases or sprays due to oxygen sensor damage.)New injectors... She DOES idle better, and seems to have more umf in her step. But as soon as i key off the ignition she drops to 30 psi, than ten minutes later is now at 20psi... Ill keep you updated but this Jeeps driving me nuts. Remember i isolated it to the rail... So new injectors, countless new pressure regs, and still bleed off! Ive inspected up and down and no leaks ANYWHERE.... Im going crazy over here.

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Intellect
November 17th, 2017, 11:08
Did the ford 4 hole upgraded ones btw. #motorcraft

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Ecomike
November 17th, 2017, 17:33
A slow pressure down to 20 psi is OK, and even something like 10 over night IIRC. -Pressure can change with fluid temperature, and very very slow check valve leak seems to be OK. But If it dropped under 10 psi in 24 hours I would look for a remaining issue. IIRC you want it be at least 20-22 psi after about 20-30 minutes of being off IIRC.

Is the original problem gone????


I had a defective brand new vacuum hose like your bad fuel hose you found. It was not round inside.

Intellect
November 17th, 2017, 18:23
A slow pressure down to 20 psi is OK, and even something like 10 over night IIRC. -Pressure can change with fluid temperature, and very very slow check valve leak seems to be OK. But If it dropped under 10 psi in 24 hours I would look for a remaining issue. IIRC you want it be at least 20-22 psi after about 20-30 minutes of being off IIRC.

Is the original problem gone????


I had a defective brand new vacuum hose like your bad fuel hose you found. It was not round inside.Well 4 hours later it started first try. So lets see what it does after sitting overnight. Will report back. Thank you. Was mislead. Was told it shouldnt drop no where near 10psi.

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Ecomike
November 17th, 2017, 19:00
Not so much miss led.

95-96 was when the operating fuel pressure and plumbing changed, from 30/39 range to 49 psi, and the return line was deleted. Which reminds me, the FPR on the older rigs with the vacuum line can leak fuel into the vacuum line too!!! I think yours has the vacuum line at the FPR???

But you have a new FPR now, so that is no longer an issue. I was diagnosing an endless gremlin on mine where I monitored the FP for days about 3-4 months ago, and IIRC a group of us finally decided that the Factory FSM FPR test was only in the 10-30 minute range after shut down, and did not say what the pressure should be 6 hours later or overnight. I think mine stopped at 20 psi in 30-60 minutes and as low as 10-15 overnight. I forget, it may have been lower, but it was not a problem, and not my problem.

Mine was a distributor gear with a role bin breaking that held the gear in place, and it was changing the location of the rotor as it stuck in different spots. It finally got so bad it took WOT to hold 500 rpm while it shook and backfired. Then finally it was a never will start anymore. I was about to pull the head, when I checked the dizzy guts one last time. At that point I could rotate the rotor by hand 360 degrees :scared:

The rig now runs better than it ever did in 13 years since I bought it, 297,000 miles on her now. Never gave the fuel pressure another thought. But it got a hard look and discussion as I searched for gremlins to blame.

Well 4 hours later it started first try. So lets see what it does after sitting overnight. Will report back. Thank you. Was mislead. Was told it shouldnt drop no where near 10psi.

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Intellect
November 18th, 2017, 09:10
Not so much miss led.

95-96 was when the operating fuel pressure and plumbing changed, from 30/39 range to 49 psi, and the return line was deleted. Which reminds me, the FPR on the older rigs with the vacuum line can leak fuel into the vacuum line too!!! I think yours has the vacuum line at the FPR???

But you have a new FPR now, so that is no longer an issue. I was diagnosing an endless gremlin on mine where I monitored the FP for days about 3-4 months ago, and IIRC a group of us finally decided that the Factory FSM FPR test was only in the 10-30 minute range after shut down, and did not say what the pressure should be 6 hours later or overnight. I think mine stopped at 20 psi in 30-60 minutes and as low as 10-15 overnight. I forget, it may have been lower, but it was not a problem, and not my problem.

Mine was a distributor gear with a role bin breaking that held the gear in place, and it was changing the location of the rotor as it stuck in different spots. It finally got so bad it took WOT to hold 500 rpm while it shook and backfired. Then finally it was a never will start anymore. I was about to pull the head, when I checked the dizzy guts one last time. At that point I could rotate the rotor by hand 360 degrees :scared:

The rig now runs better than it ever did in 13 years since I bought it, 297,000 miles on her now. Never gave the fuel pressure another thought. But it got a hard look and discussion as I searched for gremlins to blame.




So i let it sit overnight... Issue is still there. BUT a tidbit of information...

The first key turn to accessory doesnt always make the pump whuuuur. Itll take EITHER multiple half turns of the key. OR i can half turn the key and wait 30seconds - 2minutes. That leads me to wonder... Two issues here? Or maybe it was an electrical grimlin ALL ALONG.

(Its NOT a bad fuel pump, ive put 2 offbrands in and 2 bosches before starting this mess. ALSO 3 DIFFERENT new fuel pressure regulators, 2 relays, new injectors, fuel filter, new injector hose clamps on pump lines. I did attempt the usuals. Also ran many pressure tests.. it bleeds off overnight still)

But what im wondering.. is , is the internal check valve maybe electrically driven? (Built into pump on my 95) , What im asking, is when the pump is suppose to hold pressure ...is it an ELECTRIC internal check valve that has a very low low current draw?

If so than maybe the pump loses electric current and cant hold the gas.


If it has nothing to do with electrical current ignore that theory, im just thinking of anything possible at this point.


Another side note...

When it takes the pump a minute to "wake up" the check engine light also takes a minute to "warm up" BUT the abs light comes on first key turn no problem.

Im Just giving as much info as i can.. maybe itll lead to an electrical conclusion?

So to paint a picture.. SOMETIMES after sitting, i half turn key, and pump takes ages to turn on, but when it does as soon as i hear whuuuuur, the check engine light illuminates, BUT the abs light/radio/ turn on instantly.

(Abs is on cause i swapped to a beefier rear axle and clipped the abs dana 35 lines, dont need them, and check engine is on for code 12 because i disconnected my battery within last 50 cranks, plus the check engine light always flashes on any car when you first half turn the key)

Intellect
November 18th, 2017, 09:11
I do not believe my 95 has a ballast resistor, nor would a resistor cause bleed off i wouldnt think. By the way.

Ecomike
November 18th, 2017, 14:32
You need to get a helper, one turn the key, one under the hood checking spots for voltage when the key is turned to run (1/2 turn as you have called it). There is no electrical-fuel check valve.

Your ignition switch (not the key lock part, but the electrical start-run acc slide switch buried deep under the dash on top of column may be going bad, and the wires/contacts attached to from over heating over 2 decades....

Or it may be a dirty weak electrical connection anywhere between the battery, the computer and certain relays. But it sounds like the computer is getting a rand late pre start signal voltage that makes me suspect the ignition switch first. The fact that turning it to run and it taking 1-120 seconds to power up the timed 3 second power to prime the pump must be a low wandering voltage signal to the computer that powers and times the fuel pump relay. It would not fuel pump or fuel pump relay wiring as the late power up means the computer is sending fuel on signal late!!!! So it has to be the ECU or power to the ECU like the ignition switch. Also check for any loose corroded fuses!!! Check the ignition switch first or just replace it, they are cheap. Also make sure there is power to the ECU at the fuse when you turn the ign-switch!!! To both sides of the fuse, when the fuel pump does not run right away!!! You need to low or missing voltage in the path to the computer at times when the fuel pump fails to cycle on right away. When you do you will know what path has a bad connection to the ECU, or the Ign-switch, or you will know of the Ign-switch or ECU is bad.

If it was me I would buy an Ign-switch and swap it, after testing the fuses and contacts in the fuse boxes that power the ECU. The ECU is what times and powers the prime!!!! Since the timing is variable, it is a power at the ECU issue (wiring, corroded contacts, intermittent contacts) or the Ign switch IMHO.

Nothing after the ECU could change or delay the fuel pump prime on start cycle, and it never restarts a prime cycle till you turn the ign switch off!!!

Any remaining bleed off, if it is even an issue, is not related to your prime power to the pump problem!!!

It is possible the prime timer chip, wiring, electronics in the ECU is going bad, But I'd bet on it being dying, burned, corroded contacts in the ignition switch that powers the ECU, before any thing else.

Intellect
November 18th, 2017, 14:38
You need to get a helper, one turn the key, one under the hood checking spots for voltage when the key is turned to run (1/2 turn as you have called it). There is no electrical-fuel check valve.

Your ignition switch (not the key lock part, but the electrical start-run acc slide switch buried deep under the dash on top of column may be going bad, and the wires/contacts attached to from over heating over 2 decades....

Or it may be a dirty weak electrical connection anywhere between the battery, the computer and certain relays. But it sounds like the computer is getting a rand late pre start signal voltage that makes me suspect the ignition switch first. The fact that turning it to run and it taking 1-120 seconds to power up the timed 3 second power to prime the pump must be a low wandering voltage signal to the computer that powers and times the fuel pump relay. It would not fuel pump or fuel pump relay wiring as the late power up means the computer is sending fuel on signal late!!!! So it has to be the ECU or power to the ECU like the ignition switch. Also check for any loose corroded fuses!!! Check the ignition switch first or just replace it, they are cheap. Also make sure there is power to the ECU at the fuse when you turn the ign-switch!!! To both sides of the fuse, when the fuel pump does not run right away!!! You need to low or missing voltage in the path to the computer at times when the fuel pump fails to cycle on right away. When you do you will know what path has a bad connection to the ECU, or the Ign-switch, or you will know of the Ign-switch or ECU is bad.

If it was me I would buy an Ign-switch and swap it, after testing the fuses and contacts in the fuse boxes that power the ECU. The ECU is what times and powers the prime!!!! Since the timing is variable, it is a power at the ECU issue (wiring, corroded contacts, intermittent contacts) or the Ign switch IMHO.

Nothing after the ECU could change or delay the fuel pump prime on start cycle, and it never restarts a prime cycle till you turn the ign switch off!!!

Any remaining bleed off, if it is even an issue, is not related to your prime power to the pump problem!!!

It is possible the prime timer chip, wiring, electronics in the ECU is going bad, But I'd bet on it being dying, burned, corroded contacts in the ignition switch that powers the ECU, before any thing else.
WOW that was informative, i did a quick read, but ill sit down and digest it later. But the gist is i more than likely have two issues at hand. Which is good..ish? To here LOL.

The pump taking a minute to turn on happens VERY VERY rarely. So ill adress the bleed off issue for now. Im putting an inline check valve in and reporting back.

I ran another test, with a fancy gauge set I bought. Right after the fuel filter. And BAM bleed off. Im guessing faulty pump, which im tired of replacing, so check valve it is!

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Ecomike
November 18th, 2017, 16:03
I hear OEM (if it exists) and Bosch are the only fuel pumps worth a damn for our jeeps. How bad is the bleed off? There is a reason the ECU cycles the pump on for 3 seconds during the start up/pre start process. It is to restore fuel pressure as some bleed down from say 30 to 20 in about 20-30 minutes is normal. If it ain't broke don't fix it. But it does need to hold some pressure to avoid vapor lock on hot restarts, and gas vapor in the injector feeds....

I had issues with my saturn recently, the FPR is in the external inline filter on them, LOL. Mine would drop to zero in under 10 seconds when the power went off when I found the problem. And the operating pressure was about 7 psi below spec while running. May have been that way for 10 years, LOL. It got bad enough to finally throw a lean code this year which was the second clue that sent me hunting, the first clue was bad gas mpgs this year... The FPR in the filter was bad.

WOW that was informative, i did a quick read, but ill sit down and digest it later. But the gist is i more than likely have two issues at hand. Which is good..ish? To here LOL.

The pump taking a minute to turn on happens VERY VERY rarely. So ill adress the bleed off issue for now. Im putting an inline check valve in and reporting back.

I ran another test, with a fancy gauge set I bought. Right after the fuel filter. And BAM bleed off. Im guessing faulty pump, which im tired of replacing, so check valve it is!

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Intellect
November 18th, 2017, 16:13
I hear OEM (if it exists) and Bosch are the only fuel pumps worth a damn for our jeeps. How bad is the bleed off? There is a reason the ECU cycles the pump on for 3 seconds during the start up/pre start process. It is to restore fuel pressure as some bleed down from say 30 to 20 in about 20-30 minutes is normal. If it ain't broke don't fix it. But it does need to hold some pressure to avoid vapor lock on hot restarts, and gas vapor in the injector feeds....

I had issues with my saturn recently, the FPR is in the external inline filter on them, LOL. Mine would drop to zero in under 10 seconds when the power went off when I found the problem. And the operating pressure was about 7 psi below spec while running. May have been that way for 10 years, LOL. It got bad enough to finally throw a lean code this year which was the second clue that sent me hunting, the first clue was bad gas mpgs this year... The FPR in the filter was bad.Its bad bleed down. Its instant 30 to 20 as soon as i key it off. Than within 30 minutes 10psi, than 0psi withinan hour.


It is a bosch pump. I had this issue 3 months into owning my jeep. put an oreillys pump, solved the issue for a few months, than it shit out and made the issue happen again, i warrantied it, week later same issue, warrantied it, week later same issue, said f it, went bosch, and same issue.

So i either have extremely bad luck, or its not the pump.

But its bad bleed off for sure. I tried isolating it to rail or not rail but found out i have the hard plastic lines under the rubber outside, so the vice grip method wasnt accurate, if you seen the above post, it was faulty. Psi was still bleeding through. Reason being, Which explained why the bleed down was super super slow with lines clamped. (Gauge is at rail, fuel at rail, lines clamped, but not perfectly since hard plastic, fuel seeeped past clamped lines superrrrrr slow, leading me to think bleed off at rail, new injectors, and 3 new fuel pressure regs, before realizing its not at rail)


Earlier today i confirmed this by attaching my fuel gauge right after the engine side of the fuel filter. And priming it. The bleed off acted identical. So either my gauge attachment wasnt fastened perfect, or its on the filter/pump end for sure.


This fuel thing has had me double check so many things its unreal.


Ive had my fair share of vehicles. And worked on my fair shair. 04 mustang, 01 mustang, 05 calorado, 92 f150 ,89 mustang.. engine swaps, semi restores. Pumps, injectors, top end rebuilds, you name it.


This jeep is possessed 🤣.

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Ecomike
November 18th, 2017, 16:32
LOL, I named them Cloaked Jeep Gremlins, similar to cloaked Klingons (birds of Prey, leaving you praying they will vanish and not return), LOL, they just appear and then when you look for them they vanish.:shiver:

Good luck and have fun.

Are you 100% sure it is not still the hose/clamp issue? You could pressure test the pump and hose outside of the tank, next time, if there is one, before installing the assy.

Intellect
November 18th, 2017, 16:58
LOL, I named them Cloaked Jeep Gremlins, similar to cloaked Klingons (birds of Prey, leaving you praying they will vanish and not return), LOL, they just appear and then when you look for them they vanish.:shiver:

Good luck and have fun.

Are you 100% sure it is not still the hose/clamp issue? You could pressure test the pump and hose outside of the tank, next time, if there is one, before installing the assy.I didnt test them outside the jeep but today i tested after the filter. Put my gauge there with a makeshift of 2 atachments that where in my kit and some hose clamps. Same issue.

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Intellect
November 19th, 2017, 10:37
I swear my neighbors think im crazy... Just installed a one way check valve and the second i key the ignition on it hit 49psi ish (good!) I key the ignition off BAM needle runs faster than a fat kid to mcdonalds, down to 11psi. AND within a handful of minutes itll climb to 9psi i am so fed up with Jeep/chrystler.

4 NEW PUMPS, 3 NEW PRESSURE REGULATORS, 2 FUEL FILTERS, INJECTORS, NO LINES ARE BROKEN, EVEN TRIED THE CHECK VALVE JIMMY RIG!


Any last ideas before i burn this p.o.s to the ground just for personal amusement. I am beyond crazed here lol.

I just did this 10 minutes ago, so ill see if it atleast holds that 9psi.


Many will say "ah give it up take it to a shop"

Well 4 reputable shops couldnt find the issue either. (I have a lot of mechanic shop friends).

I would give my LEFT LEG to find this issue

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Intellect
November 19th, 2017, 10:38
Picturehttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171119/8d9255483162bb558520f2a0003693e5.jpg

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Intellect
November 19th, 2017, 10:39
Update, its still dropping.

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Intellect
November 19th, 2017, 11:01
Well i took the inline check valve out and it doesnt work anymore so... Maybe try a different brand check valve?

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Intellect
November 19th, 2017, 11:25
If the pump internal check valve was bad(as i assume it is maybe? Losing my mind here) it would leak fuel back, how would i watch this, since the pump sucks the gas through the sock/filter. So it would leka it back into that correct?


Im thinking about maybe calling bosch...

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Intellect
November 19th, 2017, 12:12
Welp i took off the sock/filter sucker upper. And made the pump suck gas strait from a cup, and watched it as soon as the key was cycled and turned off. The fluid did NOT drain from pictured hole, back into cup, so not bleeding off THERE. Boy have i ran in circles with this issue... Maybe ill buy a new fuel rail and waste money there next? https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171119/9b71d51a12e6c81962322d52e98edee1.jpg

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Intellect
November 19th, 2017, 13:02
I went with a 5/16 fuel injection hose from a different auto store... At the fuel pump, and it doesnt ibstantly drop to 15psi... Hmmm, i tried the oreillys fuel injection hose, the one with the bosch, and now autozones, now it has only bled 50psi to 42 psi in 8 minutes. Before in 8 minutes it wouldve been 0-10psi... Ill report back after it sits a long time, but if this was all hose issue, boy do i have bad luck!! (But lets not put our ducks in a row just yet) i wont set off the fireworks until i report back.

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Ecomike
November 19th, 2017, 13:07
Did you install the check valve backwards?

Did adding the check valve double the back pressure while running, as IIRC 39 is the top OEM fuel pressure for 1995???? It is 39 psi if it has a return fuel line.

The added check valve may raised the pressure enough to damage a hose seal, or damage the fuel pump CV or the FPR-check valve since you saw it reach at least 49 psi!!!!

You need to start from scratch looking for leaks from the pump to the injectors to the FPR itself. You pull the rail from the intake, make sure the injector clips are still holding the injectors to the fuel rail, then cycle the switch to see if any fuel at all leaves the end of the injectors.

Are you sure you got that fuel hose at the pump sealed 100%????

Now, one time, "if it ain't broke don't fix it!!!!"

Does it start right up all the time now????

Does it have proper fuel pressure when running???

Pretty sure mine bleeds down to 20 psi quickly with the engine turned off, and goes to zero over night, if not sooner. It runs and starts fine!!!

Lastly, is there a filter in the line!!!!! ???

You could have trash in the fuel line that is coming loose and sticking in the new FPR-check valve, or injectors, or from drain backwards into the fuel pump from decaying hose in the fuel lines!!!!

Did you just confirm the fuel pump check valve is holding pressure? You can dead end the pump to a pressure gauge, and cycle it on for barley 1 second (do not run it too long, as it might damage the pump, over pressure it??) and see if it holds pressure.

Intellect
November 19th, 2017, 13:21
Did you install the check valve backwards?

Did adding the check valve double the back pressure while running, as IIRC 39 is the top OEM fuel pressure for 1995???? It is 39 psi if it has a return fuel line.

The added check valve may raised the pressure enough to damage a hose seal, or damage the fuel pump CV or the FPR-check valve since you saw it reach at least 49 psi!!!!

You need to start from scratch looking for leaks from the pump to the injectors to the FPR itself. You pull the rail from the intake, make sure the injector clips are still holding the injectors to the fuel rail, then cycle the switch to see if any fuel at all leaves the end of the injectors.

Are you sure you got that fuel hose at the pump sealed 100%????

Now, one time, "if it ain't broke don't fix it!!!!"

Does it start right up all the time now????

Does it have proper fuel pressure when running???

Pretty sure mine bleeds down to 20 psi quickly with the engine turned off, and goes to zero over night, if not sooner. It runs and starts fine!!!

Lastly, is there a filter in the line!!!!! ???

You could have trash in the fuel line that is coming loose and sticking in the new FPR-check valve, or injectors, or from drain backwards into the fuel pump from decaying hose in the fuel lines!!!!

Did you just confirm the fuel pump check valve is holding pressure? You can dead end the pump to a pressure gauge, and cycle it on for barley 1 second (do not run it too long, as it might damage the pump, over pressure it??) and see if it holds pressure.Ill answer all the questions in a moment... But my jeeps always had 49psi when running..

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Intellect
November 19th, 2017, 14:06
I did not install the check valve backwards. 100% positive. It was $12 amazon special... Guy said it worked on his 77 camaro on a review but another review said it blew first use like mine. Go figure, shouldnt of cheaped out.


My fuel preasure has always been around 49 psi. Was told somewhere in 95 SOME return styles had 49 right before the switch to returnless. At one point the fuel rail where the pressure reg sits, was slightly bent, thats why it was lower psi on an old thread of mine. But once i bent where the pressure reg sits back "strait" (compared to friends 95 cherokees) it sealed nicely and started reading 49psi ish from that point on. The pressure reg sat fully seated from that point on.


The inline check valve was in there for literally 1 minute of run time total. I doubt it damaged anything. I took it out and put everything back oem under there.

I am 100% the line at the pump is sealed NOW, as i put a tighter hose on there and tighter hose clamps. It is SUPER snug. Plus pressure doesnt bleed off instantly (fingers crossed maybe this solved it) in the last hour it dropped to 29psi, usually in 1 minute it dropped to 9psi.


Until this fuel issue "if it aint broke dont fix it" was my motto for any vehicle ive ever owned. Ive been chasing this issue for so long its unreal. I did injectors as a last resort, plus i always wanted to do the 4 hole upgrade, so hey, 2 birds right?


When running fuel pressure pings around 49psi, it runs fine. (247,000 miles) but fine. Real good for a car with those miles. I literally run it 6 hours strait offroad. Knock on wood. And im fine. It is literally a bleed off WHEN IT SITS issue. I can drive it 200 miles on the interstate. Offroad it 6 hours. Drive 200 miles home. And no misfire. No hesitation. No starving for fuel. (Ive had a mustang that was garbage on the interstate with fuel issues, a bad pump, so i know how it would feel/act)


I didnt worry about fuel pressure until i had the issue of it not starting after sitting over night. If it cranked first try i wouldnt be here. Its not my daily. I dont need my 22 year old jeep to oem spec lol. Im not nit picking. I just want a first start, settle for second start lmao.


I do have a fuel filter. (Also new!)
And i doubt theres stuff in the lines causing this, it is for sure a bleed off issue, if i had stuff randomly clogging lines id have problems on the interstate and offroading and in the woods. But nope. Its fine. I put it to the test recently. Went 200 miles up north. Offroaded 5 hours. Camped over night. Next morning took playing with key cycling to get it going, offroaded 6 ish hours, came 200 miles home.



And yes i did just verify the pump check valved good (i think) i sat under the jeep. And had someone cycle the key, pump sucks fuel in. And it doesnt release it (atleast for the 5 minutes i sat under the jeep starring at it)




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Intellect
November 19th, 2017, 14:49
2 hours later 20psi, fingers crossed! Im going to have it sit overnight and see if i get a healthy first time crank in the am

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Intellect
November 19th, 2017, 16:16
I AM GOING NUTS. IT ONLY DROPPED TO 14 PSI IN 3 AND A HALF HOURS. so i figured, "oh great, didnt hit 0 psi!" But nope, go to crank it and no fuel, foot to floor.. POP POP OH BOOHOO IM A JEEP AND IM NOT GETTING SUFFICIENT GAS IMA THROW A FIT, oh wait you cycled the key a few times? Fine, now ill act like a good little jeep!


I AM SO FREAKING DONE.

Any downs to just putting the pump on a damn switch that i can flick on for a few seconds to the pump before i crank the jeep? A "system prime" switch?

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Intellect
November 19th, 2017, 16:56
Ill see if it bleeds to 0 overnight... If it does, back to square 1. If it only bleeds to 15 ill consider the bleed off FINALLY fixed, and move onto the sometimes pump not turning on first or second key cycle issue.

Relays new.

Wouldnt surprise me if i had an issue at the under hood fuse box, when i did my ac the relay position from relay to battery was bad coming from the box, and had to run a new one... Maybe something in the fuse box/relay for fuel pump is half loostened so thats why itll only present itself half the time?


Before we go chasing electrical grimlens ill report back for the psi overnight... If psi is fine than id much chase electrical ANY DAY. Much easier. Can always run your own wiring for 75% of wiring issues.

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Intellect
November 19th, 2017, 17:08
Minds got 100 things going through it, fingers crossed the bleed off doesnt happen overnight.

Onto the electrical issue. Before just slapping an ign switch in it. How can i see if its around the relay/underhood box. I did a visual inspection. But i just have a hunch its around that area, because of what i went through with my ac. The jeep ac never worked. I put new compressor, evap, drier, r134, condensor, etc. Had a multimeter everywhere and it wouldnt kick on. Low and behold a lot of diagnosing later... The relay under the hood, the female end in fuse box, had a bad relay to battery wire.

Maybe the fuel pump relay female end in box is similar? Ill have to see.


LORD DO I HOPE I HAVE PRESSURE IN MORNING

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Intellect
November 19th, 2017, 18:09
Okay now this is interesting. I forgot to mention. I get code 13 once in a blue moon. Which if you google it means something to do with map sensor not reading different pressure during start up or something.


* The PCM reads atmospheric air pressure from the manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensorand calculates the basic fuel strategy.

So this pcm shitting on me thing might make a little more sence.

Google code 13 to see what i mean.

110% not a bad map sensor, sensors are childs play.

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Intellect
November 19th, 2017, 18:12
Unless the code 13 is a puzzle piece to ignore. Ive only got it twice after those long crappy cold starts where its begging for fuel. So it could be faulty and something to ignore. Could be caused by the other issue(s) so sorry to blabber on, just so much thinking on this matter lately. I will refrain from posting till the morning and hope at LEAST 15psi is maintained overnight.

(Thinking the damn hose in the tank mightve been this pesky pressure issue)

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Ecomike
November 19th, 2017, 18:57
Bad ignition switches are common on our jeeps. On the 87-90 they would go bad on the AC blower, AC power, Wind shield wiper, turn signal, electric window power through the ignition switch, with out causing starting or running issues. Did you not mention AC issues? Yes? But you fixed it already?

Also, the 87-90 was notorious for sloppy, noisy ground connections causing all sorts of issues. Like fuel power, sensor data issues to the ECU.

Lastly, are you aware that at WOT when starting, the ECU shuts off power to the fuel injectors, thus it cuts fuel going into the engine!!!! Your 2-3 comments about WOT "starting" and "flooding" etc make me wonder if think WOT is feeding fuel when in fact it cuts off power to the injectors so they can not deliver fuel (unless one is leaking???) ??? It actually is a trick when cranking to rapidly dry out a flooded fuel injected computer controlled engine!!!

Okay now this is interesting. I forgot to mention. I get code 13 once in a blue moon. Which if you google it means something to do with map sensor not reading different pressure during start up or something.

* The PCM reads atmospheric air pressure from the manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensorand calculates the basic fuel strategy.

So this pcm shitting on me thing might make a little more sence.

Google code 13 to see what i mean.

110% not a bad map sensor, sensors are childs play.

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Unless the code 13 is a puzzle piece to ignore. Ive only got it twice after those long crappy cold starts where its begging for fuel. So it could be faulty and something to ignore.

I have never seem a bad MAP sensor, or read of 2 found here in 10 years. Super rare. That said, the vacuum hose to the MAP sensor is a common bad part!!! Mine was acting OK this year, most of the time, but it turned out it had a hidden dry rot, loose sloppy connection on the bottom side of the rubber-plastic tube connection, not visible unless you removed it and turned it 180 degrees!!! Mine is renix, your is HO, so IIRC yours is short and hidden, and know to develop an issue on the bottom side of the rubber from the intake throttle body to the MAP sensor.

I doubt it is your current problem.

Intellect
November 19th, 2017, 19:02
So much food for though.. guess ill see where psi is at in morning and go from there. If psi is good ill start diagnosing the ecm, relay female on the box, ign switch.

Mines a 1995 btw. And yes i did mention ac issues (fixed) issue was at relay on fuse box under hood.

I did have my blinker switch go out, i replaced it months ago.

My blower motor does go out sometimes, nothing a good wack on the dash doesnt fix LOL.

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Intellect
November 19th, 2017, 19:14
And maybe i was using the wrong words, whenever i have the cold start issue, i give it constant gas until it has a steady stream (from the bleed down) or gas issues in general.

In depth.

Crank. Nothing. Crank. Nothing. Engine wants to turn but no fuel.

Mr pump , oh hey guys im late to the party, whuuuuuuuuur, *check engine light comes on same time*

Crank, starts and dies, or starts and i hold gas.

Crank, feed it gas for a minute, drive it 6 hours just fine.

OR i could have turn the key 20 times.


Not those steps to the t everytime, but you get the picture.


I hope i painted a picture sort of. I have in my own head. It was two issues. Fuel psi, plus this electrical. Cause a bleed off issue (super common amongst old cars) you can just prime it 2-4 times. But since it wouldnt prime right away each turn, it was a electrical and bleed off combined

Normal car with bleed of youd... Half turn, prime 10-15psi ish? (Bullcrapping psi #s here),

Second Half turn. 30-40 psi

Third half turn, 40-50psi

Crank and fine.


BUT MINE. Bleed off

First half turn... Mr pump wake up

Second half turn... Wake up mr pump

Third half turn whuuur 10-15 psi

Fourth half turn.. wake back up (bleed off issue has drained back already)

Fifth turn, whuuur 10-15 psi again


So thats why it took much more playing to diagnose my bleed off.


I hope all that babbling made some sort of sence...


Whats weird is when the car has recently been running the pump always turns right on... I know its electrical... But never seen an ELECTRICAL issue that is only persistant on a COLD engine. .. florida... "Cold".....




Once again before we jump any guns im making sure it holds 15psi overnight.


But this bleed off wouldnt even of ever been a big issue if the pump had turned on everytime i cycled the key, cause i couldve just done the old poor mans prime...



I reread above post you made other day, can you help me diagnose to see if ecm/ign switch/relay box? (If psi is held in morning, but weve established psi issue and electrical issue are obviously seperate at this point)

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Intellect
November 19th, 2017, 19:17
Threads so long now, reinerate. 1995. Cherokee. 4.0 auto. Inline6 ho. 247k miles.

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Ecomike
November 19th, 2017, 19:31
So much food for though.. guess ill see where psi is at in morning and go from there. If psi is good ill start diagnosing the ecm, relay female on the box, ign switch.

Mines a 1995 btw. And yes i did mention ac issues (fixed) issue was at relay on fuse box under hood.

I did have my blinker switch go out, i replaced it months ago.

My blower motor does go out sometimes, nothing a good wack on the dash doesn't fix LOL.

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LOL, yep, that too is another early sign of a sick XJ ignition switch. Ever smell burning insulation when the AC blower is on Max? Plastic insulation, contacts and phenolic board parts get roasted by undersized headlight and AC Blower contacts on the Ignition switch. Over time they get loose, and make poor contact, resulting in iffy connections. A good whack only works for just so long.

May not be your only problem. But will get worse!!! The switch is only about $20. The bad contacts on the Ign switch, accelerate the failure of head light, and AC Blower switches, etc.

On the 1995 year, sounds like yours has the 1996 fuel pressure, in a 1995 OBD-I rig for new readers.

Ecomike
November 19th, 2017, 19:44
Long? LOL, :laugh3: you should read some of my old threads, like the RenX Files, LOL.

" I know its electrical... But never seen an ELECTRICAL issue that is only persistant on a COLD engine. .. florida... "Cold"....."

Electrical issues can often be temp sensitive, as the materials in the connections shrink and grow from temp swings.

Change the Ign Switch :laugh3:, LOL. Or heat up first every day :laugh3:

Jeeps from 1984 to at least 1995 are known to frequently have the ign switch crap out, not on the cranking circuit, but on other power paths. You have multiple signs of one that is on its last legs. It is possible it is causing the power to the ECU and thus to the fuel pump on start up to fail when cold.

Also " i give it constant gas until it has a steady stream (from the bleed down) or gas issues in general. "

How are you doing this, as the ECU ignores the TPS sensor location during cranking except at WOT, and then it cuts off the fuel 100%. All you are doing at partial throttle is giving it excess air. If you have low fuel pressure, which you had, then you have poor atomization, and can flood it I guess from repeated no starts? I always us zero gas peddle for starting. If it fails to start and floods, I use WOT while cranking tell it starts, or tryies to.

Intellect
November 19th, 2017, 20:29
Glad you dont consider my threads super long. Was making sure i wasnt annoying. Im taking every bit of knowledge in.

So im hearing throw money at an ingition switch? Eh my ignition and driver door key dont match , so i guess it would be cool to get a door/ignition set up. (Replaced drivers door, old door was scrapped before i got a chance to swap cylinders)

And my bad, guess i learned something new about electrical issues and weather.

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Intellect
November 19th, 2017, 20:43
And my peddle to the metal to get it to crank after sitting... Bleedoff +electrical issue... I guess i never knew that. I had a different mindset. I know it isnt the same logic as carbed (boy do i wish this jeep was carbed lately) but i just had the mindset... Jeep wants to crank and has no fuel, so ill give it fuel.

Maybe this explains why it would "backfire?" pop like a gunshot through exhaust if i tried cranking it after a long sitting cold start, before i learned 20 key cycles would help it crank, or if i was in a rush, id turn the car over and hold the gas down and rpm would 0-8k spike and it would run like utter dog poo for 3 ish minutes. Than popping and spiking would stop and i knew jeep was ready to behave for the day. Or usually id have that backfire mess for a minute. Let off gas. Jeep turn off. THAN try again. And in hein site, it worked, cause , at that point the fuel pressure was up, and the electrical grimlens where warm.


Hard to describe... But i learned, to avoid neighbors thinking im shooting off a gun at 10pm, or 7am, just to cycle my key a crap tone, while also waiting for my fuel pump to whuuuuur, was a lot easier.

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Intellect
November 19th, 2017, 20:47
Question... I know you were kidding.... But hypothetically... I could wait a day, than take a blowdryer to my ignition switch. As a diagnostic?


Im really against/done throwing parts at it. Link to a good ign switch? Or a brand. Ive learned cherokees are temperamental with the brand of parts.... I like my pony, buy motorcraft and call it a day LOL.

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Intellect
November 19th, 2017, 20:52
Another bit of random info

When i half cycle the key, then uncycle it. Not to run, or acc, but off off. Theres a eeeer. Noise. Im 90% sure in the column. Ill try to get it on video.

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Ecomike
November 19th, 2017, 21:25
Yes buy and install an ignition switch.

It is not the lock and key mechanism.

It is way under the dash on top of the column half way to the firewall. It is a slide switch operated by a rod that is moved by the lock-key mechanism. Costs about $20 at local parts houses. I use cheap Chine parts. And try to replace just the bad part, LOL.:laugh3:

There are old threads and you tube videos on replacing it.


So im hearing throw money at an ingition switch? Eh my ignition and driver door key dont match , so i guess it would be cool to get a door/ignition set up. (Replaced drivers door, old door was scrapped before i got a chance to swap cylinders)



It works as a diagnostic for testing ICM-HV coils and CPS sensors, as does hot or ice water on the CPS. Doubt it is useful on the Ign switch.


Question... I know you were kidding.... But hypothetically... I could wait a day, than take a blowdryer to my ignition switch. As a diagnostic?


Im really against/done throwing parts at it. Link to a good ign switch? Or a brand. Ive learned cherokees are temperamental with the brand of parts.... I like my pony, buy motorcraft and call it a day LOL.



Another bit of random info

When i half cycle the key, then uncycle it. Not to run, or acc, but off off. Theres a eeeer. Noise. Im 90% sure in the column. Ill try to get it on video.


Sound like arcing, hissing at the ign switch? Or a vacuum leak in the AC Vacuum lines?

Backfiring is usually caused by loss of the MAP vacuum in my experience, or a distributor not indexed right or going bad.

Intellect
November 19th, 2017, 21:34
Granted i made the video before i received pur latest reply.. figure it may help? Or have no impact lol. Anyway..

https://youtu.be/gJXzelDrZHE

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Intellect
November 19th, 2017, 21:49
It's not a vacuum noise. May not even be related to this entire issue. But figured a video would help.

I'll look into the ignition switch. I researched it. For $30 and some torx screw 30 minutes job it's worth it.

As you see at start of video, first key cycle when the pump/check engine light takes a minute, the abs/ebrake/radio is on just fine. Idk if that means anything.



Im also back to 0 psi after 4 hours.


Cycling the keys starting to seem better and better each day...for the bleed off... Heck when the gauge tool is hooked up and the pump is electrically behaving, 2-3 cycles has me way over 49 psi. If pump aleays electrically behaved im thinking id never worried about the pressure, cause a single prime might be all she needs.

If i didnt have $7k+ into her id just get another at this point LOL. What's sad is if it would learn to behave, i planned to surprise it with a rebuilt motor next year. But boy are those plans cancelled. Im putting my efforts elsewhere, the ungrateful turd LMAO

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Intellect
November 19th, 2017, 21:54
Im writing off the pressure as a leaky pressure regulator, the o ring. Since the rail had to be masaged back strait where it sits.

WHO KNOWS


Like i said earlier, maybe the pressure has always bled off and i just didn't know cause the pump was electrically fine and primed it right up.



If ign switch doesn't fix it, hotwire a switch to pump as a primer switch? Lmao

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Intellect
November 19th, 2017, 22:06
Im reading a lot of ignition switch forums... To clear up earliers terms I used...

When i turn key half and the pump delays and check engine light delays, i can still attempt to crank vehicle. (Starter works, flex plate spins etc) it just has no gas because... Well mr pump is late to the party.

I only mention this because the ignition switch posts are all saying people had no crank situations where not even the starter would engage, basiclaly a bad ignition immitates a dead battery, which isnt my case. The plate gets spun, the system just has no fuel.


Id hate to throw money at an ecm/pcm, and radioshack died so i cant just replace caps.

Why oh why mr jeep

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Ecomike
November 19th, 2017, 22:51
Every jeep ignition switch I replaced, and many others on this forum, was due to stuff other than the crank starter not running. Usually stuff like dead blower and dead windshield wipers was the part of the Ign switch that died. I have seen them so fried and loose and sloppy, etc, that I have no reason not to believe that it is a contact in the switch or wire that goes to power the ECU that then powers the fuel pump that can be your intermittent problem. You already know the HVAC blower power is dropping out at times.

Warning folks, ignor the first 6 minutes of his video, unless your bored stiff with nothing to do, LOL, the noise finally happens near the end of it. Sounds like a noisy buzzer in the dash, no idea what it is.

Ecomike
November 19th, 2017, 22:53
There are better online electronic parts sources.

Im reading a lot of ignition switch forums... To clear up earliers terms I used...

When i turn key half and the pump delays and check engine light delays, i can still attempt to crank vehicle. (Starter works, flex plate spins etc) it just has no gas because... Well mr pump is late to the party.

I only mention this because the ignition switch posts are all saying people had no crank situations where not even the starter would engage, basiclaly a bad ignition immitates a dead battery, which isnt my case. The plate gets spun, the system just has no fuel.


Id hate to throw money at an ecm/pcm, and radioshack died so i cant just replace caps.

Why oh why mr jeep

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Intellect
November 20th, 2017, 06:36
Every jeep ignition switch I replaced, and many others on this forum, was due to stuff other than the crank starter not running. Usually stuff like dead blower and dead windshield wipers was the part of the Ign switch that died. I have seen them so fried and loose and sloppy, etc, that I have no reason not to believe that it is a contact in the switch or wire that goes to power the ECU that then powers the fuel pump that can be your intermittent problem. You already know the HVAC blower power is dropping out at times.

Warning folks, ignor the first 6 minutes of his video, unless your bored stiff with nothing to do, LOL, the noise finally happens near the end of it. Sounds like a noisy buzzer in the dash, no idea what it is.Hmm you only had to say wipers 3 times for me to remember my wipers only work on high.

Or thats a seperate issue, it never bothered me, just MORE food for thought.


Im buying an ignition switch and going from there i guess. Psi keeps dropping to 0 overnight. But if the pump kicked on normally i dont think the psi would be an issue.

A problem thats always been there but gradually has gotten worse over the span of a year sounds electrical. Ah i remember when it was just a double crank. Turn engine over a few seconds. Let off. Try again, vroom! ... Boy do i miss those days about now.

Thank you for all of your help, its been most useful, folks had me chasing cps/tps/iac/map/ etc. Lets just say, all my sensors are in working order. I knew from that point it was fuel related. Than a purchased a gauge kit. And chased the entire fuel bleed off. Never looking back to realise the pump/check engine light thing till 2 ish weeks ago. (I always thought i had crappy lemon pumps, until i just happened to be starring at the check engine area as i cranked cold one day)

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Ecomike
November 20th, 2017, 09:14
Wipers, there is solid state timer delay black box right under the kick panel of the dash near the steering column shaft, and of course the column selector multi switch as well. But lets see what all a new switch does first.
While under there inspect all the wiring for any burned or melted connections, connectors. Don't frget to check that rubber vac hose between the MAP and the throttle body. If it is on its last legs, it could cause the code 13.

comanche91
November 20th, 2017, 10:22
Do this:

With engine up to temp with fuel pressure gauge connected. Find the return fuel line where it is rubber and is accessible to clamp with flat blade pliers. Start engine, read gauge, clamp return line. Pressure should jump up to 70>90 psi, turn engine off with line still clamped. If pressure drops fast it will indicate fuel pump check valve. If it stays up or drops a small amount it will indicate regulator or injector leak, if it steadily drops it will be injector.

Intellect
November 20th, 2017, 10:35
Wipers, there is solid state timer delay black box right under the kick panel of the dash near the steering column shaft, and of course the column selector multi switch as well. But lets see what all a new switch does first.
While under there inspect all the wiring for any burned or melted connections, connectors. Don't frget to check that rubber vac hose between the MAP and the throttle body. If it is on its last legs, it could cause the code 13.



Ive been under this dash a few times recently. Everythings good. Nothing melted or out of ordinary.


UNRELATED: One time the headlight delay module white wire with black stripe, the rubber got rubbed off the wire and the copper touched metal.. little smoke and check engine light stopped working that entire abs/brake/cel section. BUT. All i did there was run a new wire from delay module to fuse under dash and that fixed it no problem. This wire controls all of the power to that area. Had a tech help walk me through it.


Im doing an ignition switch today and reporting back. $30 autozone with lifetime warranty. So why not.

Intellect
November 20th, 2017, 10:38
Do this:

With engine up to temp with fuel pressure gauge connected. Find the return fuel line where it is rubber and is accessible to clamp with flat blade pliers. Start engine, read gauge, clamp return line. Pressure should jump up to 70>90 psi, turn engine off with line still clamped. If pressure drops fast it will indicate fuel pump check valve. If it stays up or drops a small amount it will indicate regulator or injector leak, if it steadily drops it will be injector.

Ill try this, but im at my wits end for the pressure issue. No matter what it hits 0psi eventually. After 4-5 hours.

I figured ill chase the electrical grimlen instead because ahen the pump DOES turn on just fine, and i have my gauge hooked up, a single half turn or two gets it to pressure. So ideally if i solve electrical or whatever makes the pump delay. All ill have to do is half turn the key, wait 3 seconds. Than crank er over. Which is what i do with ALL my vehicles anyway, maybe im crazy but even a healthy system sill last longer if your gentle with her, let the pressure build. Same logic as i let them sit if cold. :dunno:

Intellect
November 20th, 2017, 10:42
Do this:

With engine up to temp with fuel pressure gauge connected. Find the return fuel line where it is rubber and is accessible to clamp with flat blade pliers. Start engine, read gauge, clamp return line. Pressure should jump up to 70>90 psi, turn engine off with line still clamped. If pressure drops fast it will indicate fuel pump check valve. If it stays up or drops a small amount it will indicate regulator or injector leak, if it steadily drops it will be injector.

Ps - even where the return lines "rubber" it is hard plastic underneath. I HAVE clamped off the return line and it still loses pressure. Somewhat slower. But does happen. Probably the rail where the pressure reg sits, BUT once again, its such a sloooow bleed that a single prime gets her where she needs to be. Maybe 2 primes.

Intellect
November 20th, 2017, 10:47
Do this:

With engine up to temp with fuel pressure gauge connected. Find the return fuel line where it is rubber and is accessible to clamp with flat blade pliers. Start engine, read gauge, clamp return line. Pressure should jump up to 70>90 psi, turn engine off with line still clamped. If pressure drops fast it will indicate fuel pump check valve. If it stays up or drops a small amount it will indicate regulator or injector leak, if it steadily drops it will be injector.

To recap. 3 new fuel pressure regulators (different brands, even tried 2 junkyard oems), 2 offbrand pumps, a bwd pump and a bosch, 6 injectors, tried a one way check valve (which blew first use). All lines are solid not broken. I got the bleed of minimilized to not hitting zero for 4.5 hours.

Bledd off is inevitable :gee:

comanche91
November 20th, 2017, 10:56
I have a stroker and am using the 96-99 Mopar 53030778 injectors with an adjustable FPR and run around the same fuel pressures as you do, 49 w/o vac, 39 w. vac. On the MJs there is a section of rubber fuel hose on the right side of the rear axle just before the supply and return lines connect to the hard front lines. I clamp the return line there for pressure tests. Maybe the XJ fuel lines run differently, but there has to be a rubber to hard line transition back there somewhere you can clamp.

My fast pressure drop turned out to be the fuel pump check valve, and the aftermarket inline check valve did the trick. Once my fuel pump dies and gets replaced, I'll ditch the inline check valve. Until then, it's doing fine.

Intellect
November 20th, 2017, 11:20
Ill try clamping there... Im circling back to the bleed off once i figure electrical. I dont mind waiting for the prime before i start. Mine isnt the pump check valve, i tested it out of the tank.

Ecomike
November 20th, 2017, 16:18
That is what I recall too, I think mine bleeds off to zero overnight, or after 4-5 hours...but I could not find where I made any notes.

Mine was a 50% pressure drop in 20 minutes earlier this year, cruiser54 said that was good to go,

so I moved on and found the real problem after way too much grief, it was shear pin in the Dizzy drive gear going bad screwing with the timing, very rare and hard to locate unless you knew what to look for. It was not obvious until the pin completely failed.

To recap. 3 new fuel pressure regulators (different brands, even tried 2 junkyard oems), 2 offbrand pumps, a bwd pump and a bosch, 6 injectors, tried a one way check valve (which blew first use). All lines are solid not broken. I got the bleed of minimilized to not hitting zero for 4.5 hours.

Bledd off is inevitable :gee:

Intellect
November 20th, 2017, 17:02
That is what I recall too, I think mine bleeds off to zero overnight, or after 4-5 hours...but I could not find where I made any notes.

Mine was a 50% pressure drop in 20 minutes earlier this year, cruiser54 said that was good to go,

so I moved on and found the real problem after way too much grief, it was shear pin in the Dizzy drive gear going bad screwing with the timing, very rare and hard to locate unless you knew what to look for. It was not obvious until the pin completely failed.


That makes me feel better about my bleed off. Maybe i fixed it than. If you could find that note i appreciate it ..

Also, new ignition switch... Pump delay is still there, i just finished up. Thinking of putting my old one back in and putting that $35 elsewhere.

Intellect
November 20th, 2017, 17:09
Pump delay with check engine light delay still there.. everything in column looks clean. No burn. No melt. No funky smells. Connectors all look great.

So wheres this leave me? How do i diagnose if its ecm/pcm or relay box under hood. (Like i said earlier, the ac relay spot in the box under hood crapped out and i had to jimmy rig something, so with the pumpy relay being beside it i wouldnt be surprised if that relay spot was funky too) (what was bas about ac relay spot was the wire position on the relay that went from relay to battery was bad.) Maybe similar situation for pump relay spot? Idk why it would delay... and not.. just not work at all.

Intellect
November 20th, 2017, 17:22
Using tap a talk so excuse me if images are big. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171121/06fa6377ed52f7a156e1a0b82752fa80.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171121/dae9342ebeceedec5ab8de5b26e0dcc5.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171121/115cde980568423de8572ba0b63690df.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171121/1e5e6bd4b196d2fe596f7c2b907d4908.jpg

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Intellect
November 20th, 2017, 17:30
First 42 seconds shows the issue again (with new switch) ignore the rest unless you want to see an overview of my burnt free column.

https://youtu.be/6neEPmSL42I

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Intellect
November 20th, 2017, 17:42
Ok i should of made a video. 110% not a pressure issue. Wow i wasted a lot of money and time on that. With sitting pressure at 49 psi it still took playing with to get it cranked. I never thought to force prime it with cycling, make sure gauge is at 49psi and than crank. Even after i got the delay to catch up, it still took playing with, giving it gas and such. I imagine the pump has problem getting power when cold but when it gets warm power/electrical issue dissapears... So... Dang...odd....

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Intellect
November 20th, 2017, 17:50
Well doubt its the relay, jumping 30 and 87 makes the pump come on just fine.

Whatever it is controls the fuel pump AND check engine lights, AND tells the computer the pumps working. Cause like i said, when cold, even at 49 psi, it doesnt crank.


The plot thickens......

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Intellect
November 20th, 2017, 17:55
And before we circle to the cps i tested that many times with a multimeter via bleepin jeeps tutorial. Its good.

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Intellect
November 20th, 2017, 20:33
Side note, can i use a 2wd ecm in my 4wd? Local has a 94 ecm, figured i can diagnose with it.

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Ecomike
November 22nd, 2017, 12:20
Post 107 photos show severe overheating of the red and purple wire insulation that has turned dark brown the last 2 or so inches. Have you tried wiggling them in run to see if the pump wakes up?

First 42 seconds shows the issue again (with new switch) ignore the rest unless you want to see an overview of my burnt free column.

https://youtu.be/6neEPmSL42I

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Intellect
November 22nd, 2017, 12:30
Post 107 photos show severe overheating of the red and purple wire insulation that has turned dark brown the last 2 or so inches. Have you tried wiggling them in run to see if the pump wakes up?Just tried that, no difference. I plan to buy a used ecm and see if thats it. (If so ill splurge on a new one). But ive had a guy on another forum walking me through a lot of multimeter tests. Nothings unusual, says everything points to ecm?

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Ecomike
November 22nd, 2017, 12:31
When did the no cranking issue start?

Other than you getting cranky LOL.:laugh3:

Your Fuel pump time delay on/off issue, and not cranking are two different problems. Give us a the details on this new(???) no cranking issue!!!

New starter switch .... wire issue, as the wires/connector got moved????

Not sure about the Chrysler column, mine are GM 85-89 columns, but on mine there is a hair trigger location issue of the ign switch that needs fine tuning when you tighten the mounting hardware. It is the apx 12" long rod between the key hardware and the actual ignition switch. If it is not set in the sweet spot when you bolt it down, you get a no crank. Also the rod from the shifter does not allow the shifter to move properly if it gets out of sync, and then you have the NSS, Neutral Safety Switch. The NSS can get old, dirty internal contacts and cause a no crank, thinking the jeep in is gear. Needs to be in Park or Neutral to crank.

EDIT: Did you check the ECM fuse? maybe you blew it working in the Ign switch swap???

Intellect
November 22nd, 2017, 12:32
When did the no cranking issue start?

Other than you getting cranky LOL.:laugh3:

Your Fuel pump time delay on/off issue, and not cranking are two different problems. Give us a the details on this new(???) no cranking issue!!!

New starter switch .... wire issue, as the wires/connector got moved????Not a starting issue persay. In getting all these posts mixed up here lol, in the end, when i say starting i mean the fuel pump/ecm issue ive had since i first posted.

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Ecomike
November 22nd, 2017, 12:49
Well doubt its the relay, jumping 30 and 87 makes the pump come on just fine.

Whatever it is controls the fuel pump AND check engine lights, AND tells the computer the pumps working. Cause like i said, when cold, even at 49 psi, it doesnt crank.


The plot thickens......

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LOL, word choices do matter, this is what got me all CRANKED up, LOL.

That said, when it does not start and has fuel, I would check the CPS during the cranking cycle for a signal (If that is possible?). Or check for a spark!!!! If there is fuel pressure and no spark, it may be the CPS going bad. I have been told the 91 and newer CPS test does not prove the CPS is good!!!! Ask Old_man

Use a hair dryer to heat the CPS, then other suspect parts, HV coil, ICM to see which one is not working cold?

Also I had no starts when cold ages ago with a bad Intake Temp sensor on my 87 Renix.

Intellect
November 22nd, 2017, 18:46
Tried the cps trick. No luck. Nlow dryer broke though, #myluck lately... so didnt get to heat ecm......

BUT i read guys online that had the computer issue would turn the key to acc, wait 5-15 minutes, than come back and crank her up, well guess what, i turned it to acc waited 30 secs to hear pump whuuur,than primed 2 times to guerentee pump was well primed. Than i left the key in acc spot for 5 minutes on the dot. Came back, and cranked a LOT easier... The plot thickens. So leaving the key in acc helped whatevers up with this Jeep. Money on ecm?

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Ecomike
November 22nd, 2017, 19:36
Once again, cranking is cranking, starting and running is starting and running, they are not the same thing, One follows the other, one must crank it to start it, but starting is not cranking.

You say you had it in the Acc position? Do you mean in the Run position or the Acc position? The too are not the same. The Acc position on the ignition switch does not to my knowledge power up the ECU at all. Thus it would have no effect on powering the fuel pump or the ECU, etc. It powers things like the radio...

I would track down power from the ignition switch to the ECU, test the wires at the ECU for power. Also be sure to consider the ASD relay mentioned on your new thread it too is notorious for no starts!!!

Intellect
November 22nd, 2017, 19:41
Once again, cranking is cranking, starting and running is starting and running, they are not the same thing, One follows the other, one must crank it to start it, but starting is not cranking.

You say you had it in the Acc position? Do you mean in the Run position or the Acc position? The too are not the same. The Acc position on the ignition switch does not to my knowledge power up the ECU at all. Thus it would have no effect on powering the fuel pump or the ECU, etc. It powers things like the radio...

I would track down power from the ignition switch to the ECU, test the wires at the ECU for power. Also be sure to consider the ASD relay mentioned on your new thread it too is notorious for no starts!!!Ill go back to my laymens terms than, my apologys. I put the key in the half turn position, half turned clockwise right before fully turning it clockwise.

Better? Lol

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Intellect
November 22nd, 2017, 19:42
Ill go back to my laymens terms than, my apologys. I put the key in the half turn position, half turned clockwise right before fully turning it clockwise.

Better? Lol

Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using TapatalkI did not mean the only counter clock wise option, that only turns radio etc on. Axcuse my incorrect terminology

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Ecomike
November 22nd, 2017, 20:00
:clap:

Ill go back to my laymens terms than, my apologys. I put the key in the half turn position, half turned clockwise right before fully turning it clockwise.

Better? Lol

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Intellect
November 22nd, 2017, 20:08
So i pulled the asd relay, looks good, nothing looks burnt up or out of ordinary. BUT it is right besides the ac relay, which had an issue. The ac relays issue was the top wire of the relay, want to say 30? That runs from the box to the battery. My jimmy rig? Ran a new wire from that prong to battery with an inline fuse.


Wonder if asd relay spot has similar issue, not sure why letting it sit for 5 minutes helps than though, im leaning ecm, pulled asd relay and tried to crank, (obviously no start) but to see how a bad asd would feel, and symptoms where different than my issue.

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Intellect
November 23rd, 2017, 08:27
Its Thanksgiving, and lets just say, i let me jeep key sit half turned for 5 minutes, and it started RIGHT UP again, like i did last night, im so happy and THANKFUL i think i know the issue (ecm) lol

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Ecomike
November 23rd, 2017, 12:00
I'd be setting up the volt meter to test for low, changing voltage one location at a time just before you start those 5 minute tests to see where the low voltage drop starts at.

Start at the battery to the ignition switch, then the run to the ECM, then from the ECM to the fuel pump relay, then from the battery to the fuel pump relay, then from the FPrelay to the fuel pump.

Then do the same for the ground wires!!!!!!Current running through bad connections can heat the connections and suddenly clean then and or make better contact, on the hot wires and at the grounds.

I would make sure it is not a connection, or contact before I risk damaging a second ECU!!!!

Also have you tried simply swapping the relays???? How do you know the fuel pump relay is not going bad on the internal contacts and causing the delay??? While I doubt it is the FP relay, I would swap in a known good one anyway. I always leave the ECU for last. I have never had a bad vehicle ECU, ever. But I some in 91-95 era have been reported to have gone bad. But IIRC it was usually fuel injector firing that was fried. Same for the Renix ECU, only know of three ever reported to have a bad ECU, and it was a fried fuel inj firing transistor.

I would still suspect low voltage to the ECU!!!!! Before I suspected the ECU. There should be wiring lay outs on line here and elsewhere of the wire color on the harness going to the ECU.

Have you checked the voltage going to the fuel pump, live during the entire 5 minute delay???? Does it slowly ramp up, or just suddenly turn on???

Intellect
November 26th, 2017, 14:32
**UPDATE**

I wanted to wait a few days before counting my ducks. I got a used ecm and BAM so many issues where FIXED! So folks, if your check engine light/pump delay TOGETHER, I would suggest looking at your ecm.

UPDATE ON MY JEEP...

I do have to prime the system twice sometimes if it sits overnight but that is a completely unrelated issue, and for a Jeep with 246,000 miles that is an offroad/weekend toy, the ocassional two key cycles before starting is NOT a big deal to me. When i cycle the key the pump kicks right now, the check engine illuminates, and the injectors even sound like they have more "umf" to them. It felt so nice to drive 3 places and my Jeep start right up!

Now i know it is NOT suggested to get a used ecm, BUT i figured id try a used before throwing down $300+ on a remanned one. Can anyone suggest a good source for new/remanned oned with a warranty?

This used working ecm came from my buddys 200,000mile+ cherokee. 1994 2wd. Mines it a 1995 4wd. The years are interchangable. But i have no clue the miles on the ecm because my buddy said he thinks the guy he got his jeep from said that he had replaced the ecm. I believe it because it looks to have junkyard markings on it. (Can anyone figure out the mumble jumble, ill post pictures). Also his is a 1994 so the ecm should be a 94/93 but it says 1995. My 1995 ecm said 1994, but that bish was BAD. It is the best holiday gift figuring this entire threads solution at last!! BAD ECM. BAD MOFO ECM.



Now a tidbit to tickle your funny bone.

To add to my bad luck.. my fuel level gauge STOPPED WORKING. Well today i did lawnwork and moved my jeep sideways at the end of my driveway at a good slant. I go to move it after... Thing acts like it doesnt want to crank (crank start w.e the term you want to hear is), i cycle the key and hear the pump/injectors/everythings normal. I decide to jump the pump relay and it works but sounds weird. I YANK THE WIRE OUT, sounds empty is why! I get the jeep to nuetral and push a 5.5" on 35s jeep as i steer to level surface. Get her gas, and low and behold the fuel gauge didnt move! So that "quarter tank" has not been a "quarter tank" these past few days LOL. ohhhhh my luck with this Jeep. Not sure if its the ecm, or if its from removing the pump 20+ times lately, maybe i messed the floater up or it went in flipped if that makes sence.

Should i try to fix it or say f it? Votes? Lol, i probably will get bored and seenif its simple like the floater flipped or caught or bent. Floater was fine for my 600 mile excursine few weekends ago. (Trip counter never worked or i would just depend on that)


Anywho, thanks for everyones patience, it wasn A BAD ECM. BAD ECM!!!! Never been so happy to say those words.

Heck the having to prime it twice last night and this morning was probably it struggling for gas LMAO.


Ohhhhh Jeeps.....

Intellect
November 26th, 2017, 14:47
Eh was tired of messing with it, but took pump out and fiddles with assembly, floater works again.

Ecomike
November 26th, 2017, 16:05
New ECM???? "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!" is my motto. I prefer a used working one, to one that needed remaning when it comes to electronics.

Besides jeeps have no problem finding others uses for those dollars. LOL:D

Intellect
December 1st, 2017, 16:41
CASE CLOSED. FUTURE READERS. WAS THE ECM ENTIRE TIME.

It might have had a slow bleed off issue also, that i fixed during the process.

But i let the Jeep sit Nov 25th until today Dec 1st. Sat for 6 days. Started FIRST TRY, on a cold start.

So folks, everyone overlooks the ecm, if you google everyone says ecm is probably not it. Its worth your time to check it out.

Atleast mr Jeep got a lot new upgrades during the process LOL 4 hole injectors, bosch pump, various new hoses, various new clamps.

And i know various parts are good such as tps,cps,iac, cause i either tested them or purchased a new, installed it, didnt fix it, and put oem back in.

So farewell folks! Thank you for the help! Till next time!

Ecomike
December 2nd, 2017, 10:37
LOL, its a jeep, the case is never closed. :-)

Till next time my friend.

Congrats on the fix. FWIW, the OBD-I ECUs of all the Jeep ECU/PCMs have had the most failures reported here. But even on OBD-I Jeeps it is way less than 1% of the causes of issues. So it is always the last thing to be considered...in 11 years on Naxja I have only ween 3 reports of a bad Renix ECU, they seem to be almost bullet proof. I think 3 of them were found to have a fired Injector switching transistor, and 2 were repaired and documented here.

With all those new parts you have now, you should see a along stretch with few if any issues.