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View Full Version : novak shift linkage =dissapiontment


coldcdn
October 28th, 2017, 00:03
so I decided to do away with the stock and huge pain in the a$$ transfere case shifter. I was actually looking forward to the install all straight forward no hassle and get it done sort of job and from what I heard would end up with a great result. Well that was not the case had to get it shipped to Canada so that sucked the price kinda sucked to exchange and customs ect but whatever as long as it worked, well it didn't. the mounts install great no issue there at all the problem is that the cable will not engage 4low which is kinda of a big deal. its a np242j evenm when adjusted fully towards tcase is still about a 1/2 inch short of cable anyone else run into this? I know I can make it work but for the money I paid really figure I shouldn't have to so yep dissapiontment

cruiser54
October 28th, 2017, 05:11
My head hurts when I read that with no punctuation.

md21722
October 28th, 2017, 05:23
My head hurts when I read that with no punctuation.

x 2.

cruiser54
October 28th, 2017, 05:25
Thanks for your post. Please understand that we’re here to help and we enjoy our Jeeps as much as anyone else.

That said, also be aware that we need good solid info on your Jeep so we can provide the most accurate info to you without wasting any more of your time or money in getting to the root of your Jeep’s problem.

Also, please be aware that during an open thread/survey here on Cherokee Forum it was found many members, both new and seasoned, will skip over posts that prove difficult to read. Those kinds of posts include run-on sentences and little or no punctuation.

Please keep these things in mind as you post so that you can reap the most benefit from this forum.

srb531
October 28th, 2017, 07:14
had the same problem installing the novak cable on my 98 w/ a 242, would not engage low range. i had to cut a little half round notch in the bezel & tunnel so lever could come back a extra 3/4 " to fully engage 4 low, it was a pia install. yet recently removed the 424 & put in a 241 rubicon tc & the shifter worked perfectly lever indexed correctly w/ the new bezel. it must have something to do w/ the fulltime mode position making the whole travel distance longer then w/ a non fulltime case ?

RCP Phx
October 28th, 2017, 08:21
I've owned 5 XJ's and never had a issue with the t-case shifter???

Green XJ Jeep
October 28th, 2017, 09:03
I've owned 5 XJ's and never had a issue with the t-case shifter???

Neither have I but I have a Bosstwerks kit sitting on the shelf for the next time I pull the t case or have to work in that area. That whole z bar thing is stupid and over complicated.

Jeep Driver
October 28th, 2017, 09:12
No problem with my Novak.

Stock version sucks.

http://i.imgur.com/kwmUla9h.jpg (https://imgur.com/kwmUla9)

PhotoJared
October 28th, 2017, 13:52
I love my Novak shifter.

Worked perfectly with my LS swap and NP231. Didnt need to worry about fabbing a long linkage.

coldcdn
October 28th, 2017, 16:39
Really wanted it to be a simple install, but that inst the case not to sure why everything is stock. It's a 242j mated to a aw4 and no modification to mounting points so wtf?. Left a msg will hopefully here from them on Monday

srb531
October 29th, 2017, 07:43
Really wanted it to be a simple install, but that inst the case not to sure why everything is stock. It's a 242j mated to a aw4 and no modification to mounting points so wtf?. Left a msg will hopefully here from them on Monday

i called them and spoke w/ a tech when i had the problem, they told me to put tc in 4 low position, put shift lever in 4 low position & hook up cable w/ both adjustment points in the middle of there travel range. when i did that it would not go up into 2 hi . i adjusted it every which way i could, they told me i could return it if i wasnt happy w/ it, not at this point in the pia install . i made it work as i mentioned before.too bad for me the boostwerks unit wasnt being sold yet.

DirtyMJ
October 29th, 2017, 10:38
Both the Boostwerks and Novak shifters are total overpriced garbage and if they work satisfactory it is merely by chance.


Edit, Novak products in general tend to leave a lot to be desired.

PhotoJared
October 29th, 2017, 11:29
Both the Boostwerks and Novak shifters are total overpriced garbage and if they work satisfactory it is merely by chance.


Edit, Novak products in general tend to leave a lot to be desired.

What the hell are you talking about? How is the boostwerks linkage over priced? Its $36. Feel free to develop, market, fabricate, and sell something like that for $36 while still making a profit margin.

I've had both the Boostwerks and Novak linkage and they both work as intended (they shift a transfer case).

I also have multiple Novak products. Each one of them were developed for their specific application and work as intended. While there are some gripes i have regarding some of the novak products (headers could be cleaned up, motor mounts could be developed a bit better) but they're fine.

Jeep Driver
October 29th, 2017, 11:35
Envious.

DirtyMJ
October 29th, 2017, 11:46
What the hell are you talking about? How is the boostwerks linkage over priced? Its $36. Feel free to develop, market, fabricate, and sell something like that for $36 while still making a profit margin.

I've had both the Boostwerks and Novak linkage and they both work as intended (they shift a transfer case).

I also have multiple Novak products. Each one of them were developed for their specific application and work as intended. While there are some gripes i have regarding some of the novak products (headers could be cleaned up, motor mounts could be developed a bit better) but they're fine.

The Boostwerks linkage for a manual trans was designed wrong, with the wrong throw ratios, and would hit everything in sight and likely never work. Maybe they fixed it, but the mistake was so rooky that it was laughable at best, and clearly demonstrated that they had no actual understanding of what they were doing. Mine uses half the parts, and actually works, and would cost the typical person something in the $13 range (it cost me nothing but time as I sourced the rod ends and hardware from an incident involved aircraft).

No cable shifter setup has ever been fully reliable when exposed to severe usage over a long period of time, including OEM setups, and it is an absolutely unneeded complication when every tcase setup ever built could be shifted reliably with a rod/pivot linkage providing you had half a brain to figure out how.

Novak LS motor mounts use some hack**** carriage bolts and a pancake bushing. The last time I used a carriage bolt was to assemble a deck, and even at that I felt dirty doing it. Read through their tech and the bias that is inherent in it, and you'll see that they have no actual creativity, they simply are long established and therefore have a large (but flawed) product lineup and a 'trusted' name and thus are able to maintain market share. Many of their basic adapters are flawed in that they will not adequately seal, or do not offer clocking when they're a multi-piece design, or have been designed to be much longer than needed.

When I pay good money for something, I expect it to be top notch. Novak is not. Boostwerks is not. Their products will not be seen on any of my builds on that basis.

Boostwerks.com
October 29th, 2017, 11:49
Both the Boostwerks and Novak shifters are total overpriced garbage and if they work satisfactory it is merely by chance.


Edit, Novak products in general tend to leave a lot to be desired.

With over 3,000 kit's out there, I have a lot of happy customers. If you aren't one of them, why haven't I heard from you? Feel free to fill me in on how we can make a better product.

Whether it works or not is not at all "chance". It's simply: (a) how it's setup, and (b) making sure you have the correct parts for the application. Our kit does require a basic understanding of geometry however.

1990JEEPXJ
October 29th, 2017, 12:32
I had tried the boostwerks kit after I moved my transfer case up and clocked it for a flat belly. I like it because of it’s simplicity and how well it worked for others. However, it did not work for me due to the new angles I created. Which was not boostwerks fault in any way. I ended up going with Novak and that has worked for me just fine

David_Bricker
October 29th, 2017, 13:36
Call Novak and explain the situation. I have their cable linkage, and when I switched to a 241OR t-case, they quickly sent me the correct link for that case. Later, when I added a doubler, they custom built a longer cable. I had it in two weeks, and it worked perfectly.

When I had an initial problem with the linkage bracket coming loose, a call to them identified the problem in minutes (needed longer bolts as someone had changed things around), and got me on my way.

Pricey? Perhaps. But my experience with their customer service has been excellent.

David Bricker / SYR

Bent
October 29th, 2017, 14:49
There's nothing wrong with carriage bolts as long as the correct grade is used.

As far as cable actuated linkages go, they stretch and need to be adjusted periodically. Depending on length and type of cable used adjustment needs will vary. That aside they have their advantages over rod and pivot linkages in various situations. The trick is being smarter than the problem ahead of time.

Green XJ Jeep
October 29th, 2017, 16:57
The Boostwerks linkage for a manual trans was designed wrong, with the wrong throw ratios, and would hit everything in sight and likely never work. Maybe they fixed it, but the mistake was so rooky that it was laughable at best, and clearly demonstrated that they had no actual understanding of what they were doing.

If I remember correctly the issue with their linkage was people trying to get the automatic trans set to work on the manual trans. Even after they were told of the issues of using an auto shifter on a manual they still tried.

Boostwerks now has a specific manual trans set.

The only issue I have had with Boostwerks is the painfully slow ship times but since its basically a one man show delays are understandable.

If you decide to market them for $13 let me know I will down for a manual one and an auto one.

clydefrog
October 29th, 2017, 22:28
Edit, Novak products in general tend to leave a lot to be desired.
I am running the Novak LS mounts, Radiator and t-case shift linkage. My XJ has prob seen more states, more countries and more national parks all while being extremely reliable. Half of their products do require a bit of knowledge on the installers part, so don't expect plug and play. Please share if you now of a company that sells better motor mounts (with support for when stuff wears out) and a better shift linkage.

I love my Novak shifter.

Worked perfectly with my LS swap and NP231. Didnt need to worry about fabbing a long linkage.
Same here. Super smooth.

moparcyco
October 29th, 2017, 22:51
To the OP I am currently having the exact same problem. My transfer case is a 241 OR however. Thankfully for me Novak is just 20 miles away,I also have a friend that works there. I am dropping off my rig tomorrow so they can maybe r&d the issue. I also want to add a Teraflex 2 low kit so hopefully they can figure it out and fix it or offer more than one cable size.
I will keep this thread updated

srb531
October 30th, 2017, 08:53
To the OP I am currently having the exact same problem. My transfer case is a 241 OR however. Thankfully for me Novak is just 20 miles away,I also have a friend that works there. I am dropping off my rig tomorrow so they can maybe r&d the issue. I also want to add a Teraflex 2 low kit so hopefully they can figure it out and fix it or offer more than one cable size.
I will keep this thread updated

interesting, i just put a 241or in to replace a 242, the old novak cable worked fine. just modded the bracket so it directed the cable upwards for the tc shift lever of the 241, but otherwise fit fine.

gordonganders
October 30th, 2017, 10:18
Bootswerk shift kit for manual trans, NP231, '98 works great for me. going on 4 years now. Some minor adjustment to get it right was required, but that was easy with the threaded linkage.

Cobalt
November 1st, 2017, 08:47
Let's talk shifters, geometry, mounts... and axes to grind for the bonus content. This is not as brief as I had hoped, so hold on, Twitter Generation.

Shifters:
Yes. There is a problem here. We've been in great contact with Moparcyco and coldcdn and these are good guys and with some data are zeroing in on the problems, each of which appear to be anomalies. When mixing an NP241OR into an XJ, the geometry of the throws does not always work out, as shown by Moparcyco's Jeep, which is now on our lift, and under serious scrutiny. It's obviously not a factory combo, but a smart idea, so it deserves debugging. What we know today is that *some* XJ / MJ's had a shorter throw shifter arm but we don't know the pattern yet, if any.

Of note, we installed a 241OR into our MJ a few years ago with this shifter and it checked out then. There may be just enough factory variance in geometry to put one Jeep over the edge where another would fall short.

The 241OR poses a couple of special problems: the factory sector pivot is very difficult to remove in situ or even on the bench with the front yoke in the way, plus the absurd amount of Loctite used on the bolt at NVG. This means that without benching the case, that the pivot can't reasonably be removed to be replaced with a shorter one, nor a hole drilled without difficulty by the installer.

To srb531 and coldcdn: I think you have a legitimate complaint. But our XJ shifters for the 231 and 242 feature a sector pivot with user-selectable holes to increase or decrease throw as needed - this was added a while ago (possibly after srb531's install) and has been helpful. Make sure you are using one of these three holes closer to the pivot and report to us. My own XJ required this, also.

Therefore, we have just designed an extension cleat to increase the throw of an XJ shift handle that will bolt on. We'll laser and machine this component out today and try it out. It will get set aside for most installations, but useful for these outlier situations.

As to DirtyMJ's complaints about Boostwerk's shifter, they sound as petty and unjustified as his screed about Novak components. It looks like a good kit and they have some time and experience behind them to back it up. Concerning DirtyMJ's statement that their kit "likely wouldn't work" and "hit everything in sight"; is that backed up by a first-hand installation or does "likely" mean that he's guessing that it would not work and feels justified in making more broad and personally untested statements? Come to think of it, DirtyMJ has a lot of sour complaints about a lot of things. Well, not everyone is slated to be the life of the party.

As to the discussion about cable stretch, it is hardly ever a material factor in this application due to relatively low forces and cycles. Control cables are colloquially called "aircraft cables" as that was one of their original uses, articulating the control surfaces of aircraft, so someone thought that even the early models were reliable enough to stake their lives on them. Good cables are sealed from dust and are lined and lubricated to prevent wear. Our cable is far and away the most expensive part of our kit and that build quality has borne out.

Mounts:
No one in this nor any industry calls them "pancake mounts". The basic style and nomenclature is a machine mount and since they have a thick cross-section, "pancake" does not fit the bill, but it's a cute euphemism. The upper mount locks into the lower mount providing shock absorbtion for 360 degrees on all three planes.

As to the use of a carriage bolt, what would you prefer? A plow bolt? Shoulder bolt? No bolts + sparkly glue & magic? The shoulder bolt was a terrific choice because it holds itself rotationally during tightening, allows for user-adjustable tension, allows pivot flexibility when aligning difficult installations and they are wicked strong at 75,000 lbs. of tensile strength and a minimum of 45,000 lbs of shear strength - though the mounts spread that shear to some ridiculous number beyond that. Maybe those numbers will make you feel a little less dirty about your deck installation.

The overall implementation of our XJ and other mounts were inspired by Corvette mounts and designed under the consultation of an impressive PHD engineer friend and Novak coworker of mine. Our mounts prior to these being released in 2007-2008 were fine, but the immediate and sustained compliments and subsequent sales increase we saw in them was rewarding, as have been our installations using them in our own conversion shop here at Novak. The mounts handle misalignments very well, allowing the freedom to tilt the powertrain to fit varying scenarios and try to give the installer maximum control.

Axe to Grind:
I suspect DirtyMJ got bent a few years ago when he read on our website that we weren't fully in love with the AW4 and preferred the GM automatics and he's let that petty issue fester and multiply since.

Not every company is meant for every customer, and vice versa. I love freedom of association.

If someone has a problem with any components purchased from Novak (or any company), and didn't call or write that company to resolve it, then grow a pair and pick up the phone. If you are aping some second hand rant, then consider that user's error in installation or failure to get our very accessible help. We take adapter / gearbox leakage very seriously and we obsess about sealing and other important details. That said, the installer has to make sure they have the right length input gears, or use available seal extensions (now provided by default and not by buyer's choice as previously) in every Novak NVG adapter kit, etc.

I know it makes a guy feel cool to get on a forum and act like the mechanical hotshot and silverback and I know it looks all edgy to be publically dissatisfied with everyone above who you esteem. If a guy has a legitimate bad experience, and wants to stay hysterical about it with no direct attempt at resolution, then he's got some issues to work out in life that go beyond Jeeps and forums. No company is perfect, no matter the crazy hours and efforts and knowledge they apply to their craft and industry. But we at Novak never relent from improving our parts and processes and we respect it when our customers intelligently bring things to light that need to be improved.

There are some adolescent swipes at us and other companies in this discussion with no substantive backing behind them and that needs to be called out, just as companies and individuals all need help and constructive suggestions to improve. Building Jeeps (and parts for 75 years worth of them, in our case) can be a brutally complicated thing. We're doing our best and appreciate the honest people who strive along side us as we do so.

Bent
November 1st, 2017, 08:56
Axe to Grind:
I suspect DirtyMJ got bent a few years ago

I always get dragged into these things.

:D

clydefrog
November 1st, 2017, 09:22
We're doing our best and appreciate the honest people who strive along side us as we do so.
Thanks for the explanation. Its nice to see that a company cares. That's why I used Novak swap parts in my build.

Nimrod
November 1st, 2017, 09:24
If someone has a problem with any components purchased from Novak (or any company), and didn't call or write that company to resolve it, then grow a pair and pick up the phone. . . . If a guy has a legitimate bad experience, and wants to stay hysterical about it with no direct attempt at resolution, then he's got some issues to work out in life that go beyond Jeeps and forums.

Well said!

burntkat
November 1st, 2017, 09:30
Thanks for the explanation. Its nice to see that a company cares. That's why I used Novak swap parts in my build.

They're pricey, but after seeing their response and level of concern, I'll be using them in mine (350V8, 700R5, NP231C) as well.

Anak
November 1st, 2017, 09:31
Let's talk shifters, geometry, mounts... and axes to grind for the bonus content. This is not as brief as I had hoped, so hold on, Twitter Generation.

Shifters:
Yes. There is a problem here. We've been in great contact with Moparcyco and coldcdn and these are good guys and with some data are zeroing in on the problems, each of which appear to be anomalies. When mixing an NP241OR into an XJ, the geometry of the throws does not always work out, as shown by Moparcyco's Jeep, which is now on our lift, and under serious scrutiny. It's obviously not a factory combo, but a smart idea, so it deserves debugging. What we know today is that *some* XJ / MJ's had a shorter throw shifter arm but we don't know the pattern yet, if any.

Of note, we installed a 241OR into our MJ a few years ago with this shifter and it checked out then. There may be just enough factory variance in geometry to put one Jeep over the edge where another would fall short.

The 241OR poses a couple of special problems: the factory sector pivot is very difficult to remove in situ or even on the bench with the front yoke in the way, plus the absurd amount of Loctite used on the bolt at NVG. This means that without benching the case, that the pivot can't reasonably be removed to be replaced with a shorter one, nor a hole drilled without difficulty by the installer.

To srb531 and coldcdn: I think you have a legitimate complaint. But our XJ shifters for the 231 and 242 feature a sector pivot with user-selectable holes to increase or decrease throw as needed - this was added a while ago (possibly after srb531's install) and has been helpful. Make sure you are using one of these three holes closer to the pivot and report to us. My own XJ required this, also.

Therefore, we have just designed an extension cleat to increase the throw of an XJ shift handle that will bolt on. We'll laser and machine this component out today and try it out. It will get set aside for most installations, but useful for these outlier situations.

As to DirtyMJ's complaints about Boostwerk's shifter, they sound as petty and unjustified as his screed about Novak components. It looks like a good kit and they have some time and experience behind them to back it up. Concerning DirtyMJ's statement that their kit "likely wouldn't work" and "hit everything in sight"; is that backed up by a first-hand installation or does "likely" mean that he's guessing that it would not work and feels justified in making more broad and personally untested statements? Come to think of it, DirtyMJ has a lot of sour complaints about a lot of things. Well, not everyone is slated to be the life of the party.

As to the discussion about cable stretch, it is hardly ever a material factor in this application due to relatively low forces and cycles. Control cables are colloquially called "aircraft cables" as that was one of their original uses, articulating the control surfaces of aircraft, so someone thought that even the early models were reliable enough to stake their lives on them. Good cables are sealed from dust and are lined and lubricated to prevent wear. Our cable is far and away the most expensive part of our kit and that build quality has borne out.

Mounts:
No one in this nor any industry calls them "pancake mounts". The basic style and nomenclature is a machine mount and since they have a thick cross-section, "pancake" does not fit the bill, but it's a cute euphemism. The upper mount locks into the lower mount providing shock absorbtion for 360 degrees on all three planes.

As to the use of a carriage bolt, what would you prefer? A plow bolt? Shoulder bolt? No bolts + sparkly glue & magic? The shoulder bolt was a terrific choice because it holds itself rotationally during tightening, allows for user-adjustable tension, allows pivot flexibility when aligning difficult installations and they are wicked strong at 75,000 lbs. of tensile strength and a minimum of 45,000 lbs of shear strength - though the mounts spread that shear to some ridiculous number beyond that. Maybe those numbers will make you feel a little less dirty about your deck installation.

The overall implementation of our XJ and other mounts were inspired by Corvette mounts and designed under the consultation of an impressive PHD engineer friend and Novak coworker of mine. Our mounts prior to these being released in 2007-2008 were fine, but the immediate and sustained compliments and subsequent sales increase we saw in them was rewarding, as have been our installations using them in our own conversion shop here at Novak. The mounts handle misalignments very well, allowing the freedom to tilt the powertrain to fit varying scenarios and try to give the installer maximum control.

Axe to Grind:
I suspect DirtyMJ got bent a few years ago when he read on our website that we weren't fully in love with the AW4 and preferred the GM automatics and he's let that petty issue fester and multiply since.

Not every company is meant for every customer, and vice versa. I love freedom of association.

If someone has a problem with any components purchased from Novak (or any company), and didn't call or write that company to resolve it, then grow a pair and pick up the phone. If you are aping some second hand rant, then consider that user's error in installation or failure to get our very accessible help. We take adapter / gearbox leakage very seriously and we obsess about sealing and other important details. That said, the installer has to make sure they have the right length input gears, or use available seal extensions (now provided by default and not by buyer's choice as previously) in every Novak NVG adapter kit, etc.

I know it makes a guy feel cool to get on a forum and act like the mechanical hotshot and silverback and I know it looks all edgy to be publically dissatisfied with everyone above who you esteem. If a guy has a legitimate bad experience, and wants to stay hysterical about it with no direct attempt at resolution, then he's got some issues to work out in life that go beyond Jeeps and forums. No company is perfect, no matter the crazy hours and efforts and knowledge they apply to their craft and industry. But we at Novak never relent from improving our parts and processes and we respect it when our customers intelligently bring things to light that need to be improved.

There are some adolescent swipes at us and other companies in this discussion with no substantive backing behind them and that needs to be called out, just as companies and individuals all need help and constructive suggestions to improve. Building Jeeps (and parts for 75 years worth of them, in our case) can be a brutally complicated thing. We're doing our best and appreciate the honest people who strive along side us as we do so.


I like a company that is willing to stand up for themselves and explain things.

The cherry on the top is showing respect for a competitor as well.

Thank you.

Boostwerks.com
November 1st, 2017, 09:50
Let's talk shifters, geometry, mounts... and axes to grind for the bonus content. This is not as brief as I had hoped, so hold on, Twitter Generation.

Shifters:
Yes. There is a problem here. We've been in great contact with Moparcyco and coldcdn and these are good guys and with some data are zeroing in on the problems, each of which appear to be anomalies. When mixing an NP241OR into an XJ, the geometry of the throws does not always work out, as shown by Moparcyco's Jeep, which is now on our lift, and under serious scrutiny. It's obviously not a factory combo, but a smart idea, so it deserves debugging. What we know today is that *some* XJ / MJ's had a shorter throw shifter arm but we don't know the pattern yet, if any.

Of note, we installed a 241OR into our MJ a few years ago with this shifter and it checked out then. There may be just enough factory variance in geometry to put one Jeep over the edge where another would fall short.

The 241OR poses a couple of special problems: the factory sector pivot is very difficult to remove in situ or even on the bench with the front yoke in the way, plus the absurd amount of Loctite used on the bolt at NVG. This means that without benching the case, that the pivot can't reasonably be removed to be replaced with a shorter one, nor a hole drilled without difficulty by the installer.

To srb531 and coldcdn: I think you have a legitimate complaint. But our XJ shifters for the 231 and 242 feature a sector pivot with user-selectable holes to increase or decrease throw as needed - this was added a while ago (possibly after srb531's install) and has been helpful. Make sure you are using one of these three holes closer to the pivot and report to us. My own XJ required this, also.

Therefore, we have just designed an extension cleat to increase the throw of an XJ shift handle that will bolt on. We'll laser and machine this component out today and try it out. It will get set aside for most installations, but useful for these outlier situations.

As to DirtyMJ's complaints about Boostwerk's shifter, they sound as petty and unjustified as his screed about Novak components. It looks like a good kit and they have some time and experience behind them to back it up. Concerning DirtyMJ's statement that their kit "likely wouldn't work" and "hit everything in sight"; is that backed up by a first-hand installation or does "likely" mean that he's guessing that it would not work and feels justified in making more broad and personally untested statements? Come to think of it, DirtyMJ has a lot of sour complaints about a lot of things. Well, not everyone is slated to be the life of the party.

As to the discussion about cable stretch, it is hardly ever a material factor in this application due to relatively low forces and cycles. Control cables are colloquially called "aircraft cables" as that was one of their original uses, articulating the control surfaces of aircraft, so someone thought that even the early models were reliable enough to stake their lives on them. Good cables are sealed from dust and are lined and lubricated to prevent wear. Our cable is far and away the most expensive part of our kit and that build quality has borne out.

Mounts:
No one in this nor any industry calls them "pancake mounts". The basic style and nomenclature is a machine mount and since they have a thick cross-section, "pancake" does not fit the bill, but it's a cute euphemism. The upper mount locks into the lower mount providing shock absorbtion for 360 degrees on all three planes.

As to the use of a carriage bolt, what would you prefer? A plow bolt? Shoulder bolt? No bolts + sparkly glue & magic? The shoulder bolt was a terrific choice because it holds itself rotationally during tightening, allows for user-adjustable tension, allows pivot flexibility when aligning difficult installations and they are wicked strong at 75,000 lbs. of tensile strength and a minimum of 45,000 lbs of shear strength - though the mounts spread that shear to some ridiculous number beyond that. Maybe those numbers will make you feel a little less dirty about your deck installation.

The overall implementation of our XJ and other mounts were inspired by Corvette mounts and designed under the consultation of an impressive PHD engineer friend and Novak coworker of mine. Our mounts prior to these being released in 2007-2008 were fine, but the immediate and sustained compliments and subsequent sales increase we saw in them was rewarding, as have been our installations using them in our own conversion shop here at Novak. The mounts handle misalignments very well, allowing the freedom to tilt the powertrain to fit varying scenarios and try to give the installer maximum control.

Axe to Grind:
I suspect DirtyMJ got bent a few years ago when he read on our website that we weren't fully in love with the AW4 and preferred the GM automatics and he's let that petty issue fester and multiply since.

Not every company is meant for every customer, and vice versa. I love freedom of association.

If someone has a problem with any components purchased from Novak (or any company), and didn't call or write that company to resolve it, then grow a pair and pick up the phone. If you are aping some second hand rant, then consider that user's error in installation or failure to get our very accessible help. We take adapter / gearbox leakage very seriously and we obsess about sealing and other important details. That said, the installer has to make sure they have the right length input gears, or use available seal extensions (now provided by default and not by buyer's choice as previously) in every Novak NVG adapter kit, etc.

I know it makes a guy feel cool to get on a forum and act like the mechanical hotshot and silverback and I know it looks all edgy to be publically dissatisfied with everyone above who you esteem. If a guy has a legitimate bad experience, and wants to stay hysterical about it with no direct attempt at resolution, then he's got some issues to work out in life that go beyond Jeeps and forums. No company is perfect, no matter the crazy hours and efforts and knowledge they apply to their craft and industry. But we at Novak never relent from improving our parts and processes and we respect it when our customers intelligently bring things to light that need to be improved.

There are some adolescent swipes at us and other companies in this discussion with no substantive backing behind them and that needs to be called out, just as companies and individuals all need help and constructive suggestions to improve. Building Jeeps (and parts for 75 years worth of them, in our case) can be a brutally complicated thing. We're doing our best and appreciate the honest people who strive along side us as we do so.

Well said! :thumbup:

:cheers:

PhotoJared
November 1st, 2017, 11:10
If someone has a problem with any components purchased from Novak (or any company), and didn't call or write that company to resolve it, then grow a pair and pick up the phone.

My only (minor) gripe is that one bolt on the middle of the passenger side mount. How the hell do you tighten it?? lol:roflmao:

techno1154
November 1st, 2017, 14:22
I like a company that is willing to stand up for themselves and explain things.

The cherry on the top is showing respect for a competitor as well.

Thank you.

Anak, I 3rd that, and 4th that! OH! WAIT,...I missed 2nd.

Am I allowed to show several hands?

cruiser54
November 1st, 2017, 15:03
I am impressed by Novak's response.

Why folks choose to post on a forum their problems with a product, real or perceived, and go all frickin Jerry Springer before contacting the vendor is beyond me...........

There will always be folks who can mess up an anvil with a rubber mallet or bend a digging bar in a sandpile though.

Jeep Driver
November 1st, 2017, 16:49
Let's talk shifters, geometry, mounts... and axes to grind for the bonus content. This is not as brief as I had hoped, so hold on, Twitter Generation.

Shifters:
Yes. There is a problem here. We've been in great contact with Moparcyco and coldcdn and these are good guys and with some data are zeroing in on the problems, each of which appear to be anomalies. When mixing an NP241OR into an XJ, the geometry of the throws does not always work out, as shown by Moparcyco's Jeep, which is now on our lift, and under serious scrutiny. It's obviously not a factory combo, but a smart idea, so it deserves debugging. What we know today is that *some* XJ / MJ's had a shorter throw shifter arm but we don't know the pattern yet, if any.

Of note, we installed a 241OR into our MJ a few years ago with this shifter and it checked out then. There may be just enough factory variance in geometry to put one Jeep over the edge where another would fall short.

The 241OR poses a couple of special problems: the factory sector pivot is very difficult to remove in situ or even on the bench with the front yoke in the way, plus the absurd amount of Loctite used on the bolt at NVG. This means that without benching the case, that the pivot can't reasonably be removed to be replaced with a shorter one, nor a hole drilled without difficulty by the installer.

To srb531 and coldcdn: I think you have a legitimate complaint. But our XJ shifters for the 231 and 242 feature a sector pivot with user-selectable holes to increase or decrease throw as needed - this was added a while ago (possibly after srb531's install) and has been helpful. Make sure you are using one of these three holes closer to the pivot and report to us. My own XJ required this, also.

Therefore, we have just designed an extension cleat to increase the throw of an XJ shift handle that will bolt on. We'll laser and machine this component out today and try it out. It will get set aside for most installations, but useful for these outlier situations.

As to DirtyMJ's complaints about Boostwerk's shifter, they sound as petty and unjustified as his screed about Novak components. It looks like a good kit and they have some time and experience behind them to back it up. Concerning DirtyMJ's statement that their kit "likely wouldn't work" and "hit everything in sight"; is that backed up by a first-hand installation or does "likely" mean that he's guessing that it would not work and feels justified in making more broad and personally untested statements? Come to think of it, DirtyMJ has a lot of sour complaints about a lot of things. Well, not everyone is slated to be the life of the party.

As to the discussion about cable stretch, it is hardly ever a material factor in this application due to relatively low forces and cycles. Control cables are colloquially called "aircraft cables" as that was one of their original uses, articulating the control surfaces of aircraft, so someone thought that even the early models were reliable enough to stake their lives on them. Good cables are sealed from dust and are lined and lubricated to prevent wear. Our cable is far and away the most expensive part of our kit and that build quality has borne out.

Mounts:
No one in this nor any industry calls them "pancake mounts". The basic style and nomenclature is a machine mount and since they have a thick cross-section, "pancake" does not fit the bill, but it's a cute euphemism. The upper mount locks into the lower mount providing shock absorbtion for 360 degrees on all three planes.

As to the use of a carriage bolt, what would you prefer? A plow bolt? Shoulder bolt? No bolts + sparkly glue & magic? The shoulder bolt was a terrific choice because it holds itself rotationally during tightening, allows for user-adjustable tension, allows pivot flexibility when aligning difficult installations and they are wicked strong at 75,000 lbs. of tensile strength and a minimum of 45,000 lbs of shear strength - though the mounts spread that shear to some ridiculous number beyond that. Maybe those numbers will make you feel a little less dirty about your deck installation.

The overall implementation of our XJ and other mounts were inspired by Corvette mounts and designed under the consultation of an impressive PHD engineer friend and Novak coworker of mine. Our mounts prior to these being released in 2007-2008 were fine, but the immediate and sustained compliments and subsequent sales increase we saw in them was rewarding, as have been our installations using them in our own conversion shop here at Novak. The mounts handle misalignments very well, allowing the freedom to tilt the powertrain to fit varying scenarios and try to give the installer maximum control.

Axe to Grind:
I suspect DirtyMJ got bent a few years ago when he read on our website that we weren't fully in love with the AW4 and preferred the GM automatics and he's let that petty issue fester and multiply since.

Not every company is meant for every customer, and vice versa. I love freedom of association.

If someone has a problem with any components purchased from Novak (or any company), and didn't call or write that company to resolve it, then grow a pair and pick up the phone. If you are aping some second hand rant, then consider that user's error in installation or failure to get our very accessible help. We take adapter / gearbox leakage very seriously and we obsess about sealing and other important details. That said, the installer has to make sure they have the right length input gears, or use available seal extensions (now provided by default and not by buyer's choice as previously) in every Novak NVG adapter kit, etc.

I know it makes a guy feel cool to get on a forum and act like the mechanical hotshot and silverback and I know it looks all edgy to be publically dissatisfied with everyone above who you esteem. If a guy has a legitimate bad experience, and wants to stay hysterical about it with no direct attempt at resolution, then he's got some issues to work out in life that go beyond Jeeps and forums. No company is perfect, no matter the crazy hours and efforts and knowledge they apply to their craft and industry. But we at Novak never relent from improving our parts and processes and we respect it when our customers intelligently bring things to light that need to be improved.

There are some adolescent swipes at us and other companies in this discussion with no substantive backing behind them and that needs to be called out, just as companies and individuals all need help and constructive suggestions to improve. Building Jeeps (and parts for 75 years worth of them, in our case) can be a brutally complicated thing. We're doing our best and appreciate the honest people who strive along side us as we do so.

Good show!


What you have on this site are a bunch of goddamned know-it-alls that rarely if ever back up there mouths will photos of their work (not all, but enough of them).
Hacks.

Novak, I'll be doing more business with you for my V8 conversion.

Green XJ Jeep
November 1st, 2017, 17:37
Good show!


What you have on this site are a bunch of goddamned know-it-alls that rarely if ever back up there mouths will photos of their work (not all, but enough of them).
Hacks.

Novak, I'll be doing more business with you for my V8 conversion.
Maybe because the majority of us have less in our jeeps than you have into your front and rear brakes and dont feel the need to post pics of everyday rides.
For some that includes the purchase price of the jeep.
Dont get me wrong you have an incredibly nice MJ but you incessant need to flame folks that obviously dont have your dissposable income is getting old.

Jeep Driver
November 1st, 2017, 20:23
Maybe because the majority of us have less in our jeeps than you have into your front and rear brakes and dont feel the need to post pics of everyday rides.
For some that includes the purchase price of the jeep.
Dont get me wrong you have an incredibly nice MJ but you incessant need to flame folks that obviously dont have your dissposable income is getting old.

No, that's not at all the point I'm making.

This guy here that criticized Novak and Booswerks, claimed his is better from junk airplane parts.......why did he not post up a pic of his creation???

RCP criticizes me for my wiring, yet not a pic of his wiring........no, where the **** is his work??? Notta.


If you are going to mouth-up, ****ing put-up! Or ****ing shut-up.

No, most of these guys own clapped out pieces of shit.


And then there is the 'spring rubbing' thread......exactly what I expect, hackery.

Green XJ Jeep
November 1st, 2017, 21:54
No, that's not at all the point I'm making.

This guy here that criticized Novak and Booswerks, claimed his is better from junk airplane parts.......why did he not post up a pic of his creation???

RCP criticizes me for my wiring, yet not a pic of his wiring........no, where the **** is his work??? Notta.


If you are going to mouth-up, ****ing put-up! Or ****ing shut-up.

No, most of these guys own clapped out pieces of shit.


And then there is the 'spring rubbing' thread......exactly what I expect, hackery.

I understand your opinion to a point but the generalality of the statement was pretty all inclusive.

As for the guy with the spring rub. He bought that way (probably on impulse) and came here for advice on how to fix. I could see your angst towards that kind of butchery so instead of snide comments how about sharing some of that knowledge and try to help the guy out.

I wouldn't say most folks own clapped out pos's. I imagine most are like me with a well maintained high mileage (I have 350k) daily drivers. While nice rigs not really noteworthy and look like every other mildly lifted stockish xj's

Kind of like how there are very few pics of your red xj

burntkat
November 2nd, 2017, 07:35
Maybe because the majority of us have less in our jeeps than you have into your front and rear brakes and dont feel the need to post pics of everyday rides.
For some that includes the purchase price of the jeep.
Dont get me wrong you have an incredibly nice MJ but you incessant need to flame folks that obviously dont have your dissposable income is getting old.

Agreed! My jeep is nothing special, and most of the pics I do have are locked up in the PB shenanigan, which I haven't been bothered to find time to address yet.

RCP Phx
November 2nd, 2017, 13:58
What you have on this site are a bunch of goddamned know-it-alls that rarely if ever back up there mouths will photos of their work (not all, but enough of them).
Hacks.

Almost everything I've done to my XJ's over the last 20yrs is posted here, with photo's. What do you want to see(in your own thread)!

Bent
November 2nd, 2017, 16:30
JD you sound like a 17 year old wanna be that's been taking pictures of you daddy's rig.

Jeep Driver
November 2nd, 2017, 17:21
JD you sound like a 17 year old wanna be that's been taking pictures of you daddy's rig.

Get bent.

Jeep Driver
November 2nd, 2017, 17:22
Almost everything I've done to my XJ's over the last 20yrs is posted here, with photo's. What do you want to see(in your own thread)!

What's the point?

Alright, let's see your engine bay.

coldcdn
November 2nd, 2017, 18:37
Just an update,have been in contact with Novak am very impressed with the level of customer support to resolve the issue. it's nice when a company seems genuinely interested in making sure you're happy with the product and that it works for you. Still in the process of figuring out what exactly is the problem, but just glad they're not blowing me off and pretending it's an installation error.

burntkat
November 2nd, 2017, 19:33
I'm going to enjoy watching the feasting upon crow.

1990JEEPXJ
November 2nd, 2017, 23:30
Get bent.

He's already Bent....:dunce:

Porch Puppy
November 2nd, 2017, 23:48
What a bunch of fuuck fuuck fuuck...

cruiser54
November 3rd, 2017, 06:32
Just an update,have been in contact with Novak am very impressed with the level of customer support to resolve the issue. it's nice when a company seems genuinely interested in making sure you're happy with the product and that it works for you. Still in the process of figuring out what exactly is the problem, but just glad they're not blowing me off and pretending it's an installation error.

That's what you shoulda done in the first place.................

Bent
November 3rd, 2017, 06:51
That's what you shoulda done in the first place.................
This. So much this.

cruiser54
November 3rd, 2017, 06:55
This. So much this.

The only good thing to come out of this thread was Novak's excellent response.

The rest of it was a total waste of everyone's time.

I swear there is an overabundance of female hormones in our food supply anymore.............

coldcdn
November 3rd, 2017, 16:15
That's what you shoulda done in the first place.................


Really genius and how would I have done that on Friday night after they were closed?. so yes I posted on here to vent my frustration and hopefully see if anyone had info that would help me when I did talk to them on Monday morning. In the future unless you have a helpful comment maybe you shouldn't troll discussion forums.

Jes
November 3rd, 2017, 16:19
What a bunch of fuuck fuuck fuuck...

Agreed.


The Novak shifter on my Rubicon TJ works just fine. There was no way in hell that the stock linkage would have ever worked with the flat belly.

And you want to know how not use some stupid cable shifter? Get a real transfer case like I dunno... an AtlasII!

cruiser54
November 3rd, 2017, 22:54
Really genius and how would I have done that on Friday night after they were closed?. so yes I posted on here to vent my frustration and hopefully see if anyone had info that would help me when I did talk to them on Monday morning. In the future unless you have a helpful comment maybe you shouldn't troll discussion forums.

Don't matter. No need to go drama queen Jerry Springer in the meantime.

No excuses. You took he wrong route.

My helpful comment is contact the vendor before posting a rant like a little girl whining like a little baby.

Man up, or woman up, whichever it is, and quit all the drama queen bullshit.

Cobalt
November 4th, 2017, 13:38
It's all good, Fellas. Coldcdn has been just great to work with and yes, it's tough on a weekend to want to install something and run into a roadblock, and sometimes forum folks do have answers.

Don't forget that Jeep guys have far more in common than we have differences. With the range of whacked out people on this planet, we're practically a tribe.

We'll get this figured out now with some data on hand and I'll post the results. If we solve it to satisfaction, maybe I'll cajole the OP to mod the title of the thread to, I dunno, Novak Shifter, Difficulty -> Solution -> Nirvana. ;)

Jeep Driver
November 4th, 2017, 14:03
It's all good, Fellas. Coldcdn has been just great to work with and yes, it's tough on a weekend to want to install something and run into a roadblock, and sometimes forum folks do have answers.

Don't forget that Jeep guys have far more in common than we have differences. With the range of whacked out people on this planet, we're practically a tribe.

We'll get this figured out now with some data on hand and I'll post the results. If we solve it to satisfaction, maybe I'll cajole the OP to mod the title of the thread to, I dunno, Novak Shifter, Difficulty -> Solution -> Nirvana. ;)

I'll tell you what I would like to see you do, regarding this.

I'd like to see an aftermarket shifter to replace the stock one. One with longer throw, adjustable throw, set up for aftermarket (Hurst) levers.

#S194
November 4th, 2017, 16:02
I'll tell you what I would like to see you do, regarding this.

I'd like to see an aftermarket shifter to replace the stock one. One with longer throw, adjustable throw, set up for aftermarket (Hurst) levers.

Why? Waste of time and engineering.

Jeep Driver
November 4th, 2017, 16:37
Why? Waste of time and engineering.

No, actually, it's not a waste of time or engineering.

I currently have a Hurst short-throw on the AX5 and a matching Hust stick on the TC.
It's nice, it's also nice to have the TC right there next to the shifter, at reach.



If throw is a problem, if Novak cable has a problem reaching both ends, 2H and 4L, a longer throw would solve that problem.

The pivot can be removed from the existing bucket and replaced, with a longer/adjustable throw and a new mount for the stick.

When I go to the AX15 I'm getting another Hurst shifter and I'm going to do exactly what I described here with my TC shifter. I'll weld a tab on the barrel of the pivot to get the stick down further into the gate and I will alter to gate to accommodate the stick. I'll probably go to a longer stick.


The stock lever/gate/linkage sucks, it just simply sucks.

Jeep Driver
November 4th, 2017, 16:40
I don't have a pic specific to the stick........but you can see it here.

http://i.imgur.com/mVCZKGAh.jpg (https://imgur.com/mVCZKGA)

Cobalt
November 4th, 2017, 20:07
Nice MJ! I need another one of these. The heat padding is smart. My XJ wants to bake me out a couple of months each summer.

It's not a bad idea. Our original NP2xx shifter kit was the #SK2X and is still popular. It is purely mechanical (levers w/o cable) and more of a builder's kit. I still love working with it. The next generation was the cable version and it came about because of the many people who asked to retain the factory handle.

That gets into the topic of the many Jeepers who love a factory look but better-than-factory feel / performance. We have been up against this with gauges vis a vis engine conversions. Some are crazy about aftermarket gauges but most want that factory sleeper look.

As to the factory handles, I like to remove the gate. That is probably what irritates you the most. The detents in the transfer case transmit well enough to the handle and we're all big boys now and don't need the dumbed down guidance of it.

Whatever the case, we're more than open to ideas and foresee a few new shifters coming down the pike. Tell us what you need and we'll let that help set some priorities.

Jeep Driver
November 4th, 2017, 20:33
Nice MJ! I need another one of these. The heat padding is smart. My XJ wants to bake me out a couple of months each summer.

It's not a bad idea. Our original NP2xx shifter kit was the #SK2X and is still popular. It is purely mechanical (levers w/o cable) and more of a builder's kit. I still love working with it. The next generation was the cable version and it came about because of the many people who asked to retain the factory handle.

That gets into the topic of the many Jeepers who love a factory look but better-than-factory feel / performance. We have been up against this with gauges vis a vis engine conversions. Some are crazy about aftermarket gauges but most want that factory sleeper look.

As to the factory handles, I like to remove the gate. That is probably what irritates you the most. The detents in the transfer case transmit well enough to the handle and we're all big boys now and don't need the dumbed down guidance of it.

Whatever the case, we're more than open to ideas and foresee a few new shifters coming down the pike. Tell us what you need and we'll let that help set some priorities.

Interesting that you bring up gauges. I'm about to send in my deposit to NVU for a custom 6 gauge cluster, 2017 gauges in a 30 year old package.
Mine will be the first, far as I know.

No, I'm not beholden to factory anything.


Good idea about the gate, may solve half my problem, I'll try it.

Northbound
November 5th, 2017, 08:37
.



I swear there is an overabundance of female hormones in our food supply anymore.............


Bruh the truth would overwhelm you

cdn_xj
November 7th, 2017, 14:13
When I pay good money for something, I expect it to be top notch. Novak is not. Boostwerks is not. Their products will not be seen on any of my builds on that basis.

I've just installed the Boostwerks into my XJ. No disrespect to Novak; from everything that I have read while researching what option *I* wanted to employ, Novak makes a quality product. I just decided to go with Boostwerks because the price point worked for me and I prefer linkage rather than cable in this application.

The install was quick, easy, and not what I would call challenging. For a (relatively) run-of-the-mill XJ that is still straight with the OEM drivetrain, I can't see where the product is inferior. I've had worse experiences trying to re&re 15 year old O2 sensors.

And if as much care is taken with the rest of their products (and I have no reason to think otherwise) then I can't see how anyone could claim any of their products "...clearly demonstrated that they had no actual understanding of what they were doing." I would be more inclined to think that there was something out of the ordinary with the application.