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vertrx
September 25th, 2017, 17:59
2001 XJ, motor recently replaced about 9 months ago with a used motor from another 2001 Had about 140,000 on it.

That said, running fine, but now have issues. Its giving codes 0300, 0304,0306, running real rough and interestingly there's white smoke coming out the tailpipe! That may be a red herring though as the coolant is fine, oil has no coolant in it, but I think the motor has that head with the issues.

I've changed plugs with NGK's, and fuel injectors. Cooling system new parts. But the catalytic converters are original, not replaced, so where do i start?

Could it be the catalytic converter? Vacuum leak? Coils? The weird thing is the white smoke since I don't see that come up in a search on those codes...

Tim_MN
September 25th, 2017, 18:26
The codes are there for a reason, troubleshoot based on the codes. If the cats are original, it is likely the O2 sensors are also original, and require replacement. Test the O2 sensors. Test the fuel injectors, and inspect the injector wire harness for damage and failed wire splices. Test the other OBD sensors.

During an engine swap, the wire harnesses get jerked around pretty good, make sure there are no failed wire splices, melted/chafed wire insulation, and that all of the ground points are clean and properly snug.

RCP Phx
September 25th, 2017, 18:34
https://www.quadratec.com/jeep_knowledgebase/article-39.htm

vertrx
September 25th, 2017, 18:40
Will do. I think I'll check the coil first. I think that cylinders 3 and 6 are on the same coil?
Also, I saw a you tube video where a guy tested the injectors. He used a set of tools in a plastic box and attached one of the pieces to the fuel injector? It looked like the plastic ball or tool he used started flashing like an LED inside. What would that tool be called?

That said, why the white smoke?

Alaskan89XJ
September 25th, 2017, 19:17
http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1076299

I would consider a failed head gasket, cracked head, or cracked block.

If the replacement engine was mostly intact when dropped into your vehicle, then all of the above is suspect, but the gasket might be the first place to look into. White vapor out of the tailpipe continuous? Just for a moment, or two after start up? Lots, or little?

From what I remember the years of your head are prone to cracking after an overheating engine condition. The better made head is called a TUPY, (click on above link).

Unless you have all the tools, and diagnostic ones, UV dye/black light as well, check into it. However, if not, then discuss with most shops that do, and see what they can check for you. Probably an hour's worth of labor costs to determine the condition. Go from there.

I have no way to check codes on a RENIX XJ, so am not familiar with that.., but others here do, and will advise you on those code issues you have.

Best wishes.

vertrx
September 25th, 2017, 19:28
Thank you. Its not a Renix, so I think that eliminates one issue. I am worried about the head issue and all its problems since that is why the first motor went south...actually west as it ended its journey in the middle of the winter in Nebraska. Towed it home! And yes, that is the head cracking year.

I was thinking to follow the codes as the first response was saying since those seem to indicate cylinder firing issues.

That white smoke is continuous though, so troubling while the engine is running rough.

Also, that fuel injector tester is called a noid or something. Interesting concept.

Runnin'OnEmpty
September 25th, 2017, 21:25
The P0300 code is a random misfire, the P0304 is
cylinder #4 misfire, and P0306 is cyl. #6 misfire.

I'd take a look at the plugs on number 4 and 6 cylinders,
and see if bubbles show up in the radiator when idleing.

Unfortunately it sounds like a cracked head....

Tim_MN
September 26th, 2017, 04:54
If you suspect head issues, confirm by testing. The 2000-01 0331 head is prone to cracking, but not all 0331 heads will crack. A compression test, cylinder leak down test, a combustion byproduct test kit for the coolant, and an oil sample sent to Blackstone Labs will tell you exactly what you need to know.

ehall
September 26th, 2017, 08:29
Will do. I think I'll check the coil first. I think that cylinders 3 and 6 are on the same coil?
Also, I saw a you tube video where a guy tested the injectors. He used a set of tools in a plastic box and attached one of the pieces to the fuel injector? It looked like the plastic ball or tool he used started flashing like an LED inside. What would that tool be called?
They are called "noid lights", basically they are just lights that connect to the injector wire--when the computer sends an injector pulse, the light takes some of the voltage

trippled
September 26th, 2017, 18:38
Quick test would be pressurize cooling system, let it set for a few minutes, pull the plugs and crank it. Look for coolant coming out. Not always a perfect end all test but if it's that bad it's a quick check that works.

vertrx
September 26th, 2017, 19:55
Ok, so it sounds like it might be a cracked head subject to some further testing. I'll check the plugs if they show any moisture.

I'll check radiator to see if it has bubbles in it? Will they show up before or after thermostat opens...hot or cold?

And I'll try pressurizing the cooling system. I suppose I pressurize it with the pressure equipment in place while I crank the engine? With spark plugs out?

If none of that is determinative, I'll have to go the expensive route that Tim_MN suggested. That will get expensive, so leave that for last. Besides, I'd have to trailer the Jeep to the shop!!

Thank you ehall for the noid light explanation!!

vertrx
September 26th, 2017, 20:18
Carrying the matter forward, say I need a new cylinder head due to a crack, do I buy a rebuilt 0331 which it seems to me would have the same cracking issue or would I look for the TUPY(?) if it fits? A rebuilt one or one out of the junkyard?

Heavyopp
September 26th, 2017, 20:29
A smart man would rebuild any head coming from the junk yard...

Runnin'OnEmpty
September 26th, 2017, 21:19
Ok, so it sounds like it might be a cracked head subject to some further testing. I'll check the plugs if they show any moisture.

I'll check radiator to see if it has bubbles in it? Will they show up before or after thermostat opens...hot or cold?
..........
The plugs might not show signs of moisture, but they will
be discolored compared to plugs on the good cylinders.

The bubbles will show up after warm-up. It might take that
much time for the cracks to open up, if that's the problem.
There will also be sooty residue floating of top of the
coolant in the overflow bottle.

The fact that the problem cylinders aren't adjacent, makes
me think the head is cracked. A headgasket will sometimes
blow between two adjacent cylinders. The only surefire way
to tell if it's a headgasket failure or a cracked head is to
pull the head, since the symptoms are the same...

tn_outside2003
September 27th, 2017, 16:57
I have a 2000 XJ. When this happened to me....it was the head and/or gaskets. I didn't check. I knew what it was and purchased a TUPY head from a newer Wrangler and had the new head reworked at the machine shop and then paid a mechanic to swap the heads for me. Problem solved. I can't promise you that it is the head or gasket. But I can say that I would not pull that head without replacing it with a TUPY head. Too much work. Gasket or head....who cares? You get both when you swap the head for the upgrade.

I did not have a coolant or oil leak either way through my head. Nothing was contaminated or violated. Just misfire codes and obvious misfires when driving. A couple of times the engine got so pissed it entered limp-mode and started flashing the CEL. Had to pull over, turn off engine, use my OBDII reader to clear the codes, restart, resume minor misfires, and continue down the road. Real PITA.

Of course....it may not be the head and/or gasket. But it was for me. And I don't know which one. Probably the head. Quite likely just worn out valves. It was around 165,000 miles or so at the time (205,000ish now). Who knows? But my gut instinct, for the 2000 and 2001 XJ's, when random misfires start up....it's the head/valves/gasket. And again...rebuild a TUPY, not the original.

I could be wrong.

tn_outside2003
September 27th, 2017, 17:09
Not hard to find a TUPY head. Get one off of ANY wrangler made after 2002 with a 4.0. They are ALL TUPY heads. And for my 2000 XJ it was direct swap. No one would guarantee a direct swap for me, but it was exact. Every bolt. Obviously, individual results may vary. My XJ is east coast and it was exact for me.

Don't harass the parts yard guy. He has no idea what a TUPY head is and does not want to go searching heads for casting numbers. Just get a wrangler 4.0 head from after 2002 and have it remanufactured at your local machine/head shop. The bad heads were swapped over around 2001.5 manufacture year. Supposedly ALL of the 2002s were TUPY heads. Go later than 2002 to be safe.

I'm just some guy with a jeep. I could be wrong.

ehall
September 27th, 2017, 18:43
Around here the junkyard TUPY heads are outrageous expensive, cheaper to buy a new Clearwater Cylinder Head than to buy a TUPY and also pay to have it machined.

vertrx
September 27th, 2017, 19:49
I'm wondering if I go to the picknpull, I'll have to do the job twice, actually removing the head twice and installing once. There are several vehicles with the TUPY head from what I recollect. Looks like the SOHC with or without cam is $49.95 with $10 core charge.

Just not sure I want to work at this in this heat and humidity.

Of course then I'll have to have it rebuilt as well as was stated above. Then there's that Jeep salvage yard in Ohio that would have them. I'll have to do the comparative shopping.

I do thank you all for the advice and help that you've given me in this quest.

One thing on my mind is that with this event, I'm not sure if I shouldn't part out the vehicle. I paid $3500 for it a couple of years ago. Its approaching 200,000 miles on the body and about 140,000 on the motor for which I paid $1200 including installation. I don't think the Jeep will make that back running ok so if its the head, I'll be upside down in it.

Green XJ Jeep
September 28th, 2017, 13:15
I paid $3500 for it a couple of years ago. Its approaching 200,000 miles on the body and about 140,000 on the motor for which I paid $1200 including installation. I don't think the Jeep will make that back running ok so if its the head, I'll be upside down in it.
Welcome to the automotive hobby. Seldomly do you get back what you put into them

tn_outside2003
September 28th, 2017, 15:52
A good XJ sells for $10,000 and the prices are going UP, not down. Just saying.....

BTW: I mean a GOOD XJ. Mine is a 2000. Leather front seats. A/C. Cruise. Aftermarket bluetooth radio. Roof Rack. No dents (has minor dings). Good carpets. No damage to interior. Minor rust (mostly under the bumper end on the passenger side, rear. OME lift, transfer case output shaft mod with good double cardan rear drive shaft, new calipers and brake cylinders, front disconnects, Wrangler tires, ready to go. For a jeep like mine....you will pay. People ask me if it is for sell and I tell them to start at 10 grand and go UP. It would cost me $45,000 to get a vehicle as good as the XJ I have. And even then it is debatable. The XJ market has flipped, like a lot of classic car markets. They are increasing in value if they are not rusted out. Recent barn find with 4,500 original miles is about to list at $15,000 and honestly....I have been thinking about buying it. A brand new XJ, smells new inside, for $15,000........... Where can you get MORE vehicle for the same price?

Just saying.

tn_outside2003
September 28th, 2017, 15:53
If you want to part it....contact me. I might pay you cash for it.

As for purchasing a head: Use the interwebs to get junkyard telephone numbers and start calling. Have it shipped. This will cost you more than $600 in parts and rebuild. Plus the cost of swapping out heads if you pay someone. Cars have a body, a tranny, and an engine. Rebuilding any of the three is pricey...but usually worth it if you want to keep the vehicle.

vertrx
September 28th, 2017, 19:08
Yes, I hear what is being said. Mine is a very nice unit. Previous owner put in a three inch lift. I don't know about the SYE, doesn't have the front sway bar disconnects, but has Rubicon wheels and custom rear bumper, front JCR. Leather, etc. So too nice to part out I think. Besides wouldn't get enough for it...thinking out loud. Close to 190,000 on the odometer. Not worth a whole lot in that regard I think. With a Wrangler LJ and a Liberty diesel, I need to thin the herd I think.

OK, so, called Clearwater Cylinder. They carry another rebuilt 0331 that they guarantee for life. They said they build these to avoid the issue and the TUPY would give me the same issues. (Only repeating what he said, I don't have any facts on that last statement). Stated that the head would be $455 need gaskets and head bolts. So he said they sell that could do it for $620 shipped. (So $600 not far off)

So, I just received my compression tester and will so a search on how to do the compression test unless someone offers up a quick how to :)

RCP Phx
September 29th, 2017, 06:39
I bought mine new from CCH! 510$ w/ free shipping.
https://www.amazon.com/BRAND-CHEROKEE-LAREDO-CYLINDER-HEAD/dp/B014E3RN9Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1505748960&sr=8-1&keywords=clearwater+cylinder+head+for+jeep+4.0

tn_outside2003
September 29th, 2017, 15:40
I would not fool with a 0331 head. They are defective. Shaving it and doing a valve job does not address the inherent weakness of the head. And the TUPY head WILL NOT give you the same problem. The TUPY head was recast with thicker walls between the trouble cylinders specifically so it WOULD NOT give the same problems. They just want to sell you a head. Lifetime warranty means they will ship you another rebuilt head if the one you have fails. Plus, they want the failed head back, at your $100 shipping expense, before they ship you ANOTHER 0331 head that will likely fail. And then, when you get your "free" replacement, you have to do all the work or pay someone else to. And the warranty does not include the head gasket, which is also expensive. Replacing a head is a hassle. I would not want to replace one twice on the same vehicle...even if the replacement IS free. I would put on a good one the first time around. That means getting a TUPY head. I have never heard of a TUPY head failing due to cracks. Valves wear out. Head gaskets can fail. But heads should not EVER fail. Unless they are poorly made....like ALL of the 0331 heads were.

I understand that you can get a head, ready to go, from Clearwater. But shortcuts will not really be shortcuts in this instance (IMO). I would go the long route by getting a used head, paying to have it remanufactured, and then swapping them out.

Just my opinion. I'm just some guy with an XJ. Individual results may vary.

ehall
September 29th, 2017, 18:03
OK, so, called Clearwater Cylinder. They carry another rebuilt 0331 that they guarantee for life. They said they build these to avoid the issue and the TUPY would give me the same issues. (Only repeating what he said, I don't have any facts on that last statement). Stated that the head would be $455 need gaskets and head bolts. So he said they sell that could do it for $620 shipped. (So $600 not far off)
That's about what my buddy here paid for it. One thing is the warranty is only good if you get it installed by an ASE certified mechanic (need a receipt), and they won't honor the warranty if you do it yourself.

TUPY is a corrective casting and will not have the same problem; if you can find one for a couple hundred go for it and get a machine shop to work on it.

I would be comfortable doing either one. Whichever is cheaper. You should replace the head bolts either way.

So, I just received my compression tester and will so a search on how to do the compression test unless someone offers up a quick how to :)
Remove the spark plugs, screw the gauge into cylinder #1, crank the starter a few times (enough for ~3 full rotations), and then read the gauge to see the compression on that cylinder. Reset the gauge and move it to the next cylinder, repeat as needed.

vertrx
September 29th, 2017, 22:01
So even though Clearwater was a recommendation per one poster, it seems that when you drill down into the facts and look at what other's experiences are, its not a good way to go.

I specifically asked about the 0331 heads they use and they stated the heads were strengthened. Nothing about having them installed by a professional mechanic to protect the warranty. Sounds like a deal made with hidden requirements.

Guess I'll find a TUPY head at the yard.

Thank you for providing the procedure for the compression test. That was definitely needed and much appreciated!!

RCP Phx
September 29th, 2017, 23:16
I bought mine new from CCH! 510$ w/ free shipping.
https://www.amazon.com/BRAND-CHEROKEE-LAREDO-CYLINDER-HEAD/dp/B014E3RN9Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1505748960&sr=8-1&keywords=clearwater+cylinder+head+for+jeep+4.0

These are another vendors casting of the TUPY head and have a great reputation!

ehall
September 30th, 2017, 05:50
Remove the spark plugs, screw the gauge into cylinder #1, crank the starter a few times (enough for ~3 full rotations), and then read the gauge to see the compression on that cylinder. Reset the gauge and move it to the next cylinder, repeat as needed.
BTW you should pull the fuel pump relay too

vertrx
September 30th, 2017, 12:22
Fuel pump relay! Check!

Also, that amazon reference is for a 0331 head by Clearwater Cylinder, the company that we have been talking about. Not sure, based on what I've been reading here, that the 0331 head is for me since I've been through one already...actually two by now since the first motor had that issue and I had to pick up my son in Nebraska with the trailer after that one gave up the ghost. Best part: January! What a fun trip that was! :)

Ralf