Wheeling with a manual transmission...

I've been a proud XJ owner for several years now and have quite a large investment in the thing, although mostly in the drive line. I have had a new engine installed, the AX15 has been rebuilt with heavy duty internals, I've replaced most of the weak points (u-joints, ball joints, etc) with tougher Spicer parts. Pretty much all the the interest of making the thing more reliable. Otherwise I've got a 4 inch lift and Cooper Discoverer STT tires but very little has been done beyond that. This thing has treated me well up to this point, but I am having some issues in regards to which I was hoping you all could give me some advice.

So to the point, as I have attempted somewhat more difficult terrain I find that I have a hard time moving forward slowly when it is required. Some others with whom I have been wheeling suggested that I simply put it in 4 low and let it roll. However it seems eager to stall at the first sign of any major resistance. So I gas it ever so slightly to 'crawl' up the obstacle, and end up either giving it too much or too little gas which causes a bounding effect that makes it very difficult to feather the throttle due to my body being tossed around. When I clutch in I am forced to ride the clutch out to try to prevent rolling backwards, however it seems unavoidable, even dangerous at times. In general this dance with the throttle and clutch takes it's toll both on my confidence, and on my rig. I have found myself (rather embarrassingly at times given the capable appearance of this thing) having to avoid the more difficult trails that nearly stock automatic YJs have been able to traverse rather comfortably due to the ability to just crawl super slowly without stalling. As a result I have begun to regret my decision to get a manual, which is disappointing to say the least given that I have roughly $8000 invested into this thing at this point..

And so to my question; Is there anything I can do short of a automatic transmission swap to improve this experience. I'm guessing a lower final drive ratio would help. Or, is this just an unavoidable fact of life trying to wheel a manual? I have tried nearly every strategy manipulating the clutch and shifter, but nothing seems to really make it any easier or more enjoyable. Please help before I do something drastic lol!

What ratios are you running in the axles?

I've only ever wheeled with a manual trans. most wranglers are manual trans as well. Practice makes perfect. A heavy foot can compensate

Look into hand throttles. Simple setup that keeps you from needing 3 feet. Use a hand throttle and lower gears and you should see a huge difference in driveability offroad

I am extremely bias to this discussion b/c I simply do not like automatics. Every vehicle I own is a manual, and will continue to be until the day I die. Having said that, I will agree with you that it does make wheeling more challenging - especially with higher final drive ratios and without doubled transfer cases, etc...

However, there is always a trade off for either. The automatic will make slow crawls easier with more stock-ish driveline configurations, but beyond that I don't see too many advantages. I prefer the downhill decent control that a manual provides, I also prefer the exhaust notes, the lower power loss from the drivetrain, the ability to move my truck with the starter in emergencies, the better fuel economy, the fact it doesn't need cooling, the ability to absolutely hold gear, lower weight, etc... The list goes on and on and ultimately in more favor of the manual. Those who disagree, usually can't drive a manual that well and are annoyed by the technical effort it takes to wheel with one.

What's the end all? I dunno man, it depends on the person and what you're willing to deal with on the other surfaces you use your truck on and it's other uses. A lot of people will say, "look at the pro's - they're all automatics" but for most cases, that's only within the US.

Keep the manual is my vote, but you probably saw that one coming.

The biggest thing you can do is get a transfer case with low gearing and low gears in your axles. A general rule of thumb is a manual transmission needs a crawl ratio of around 100 to 1 for good off road ability and reliability.

AX-15's have a 3.8:1 1st gear. In stock form, the XJ crawl ratio for a manual transmission isn't very favorable. 2.7:1 transfer case, and 3.07:1 axle ratios.
3.8x2.7x3.07= 31.5:1

Crawl ratio is how many times your engine rotates for each rotation of your tire.

My rig is a manual, and I can start on any hill while in low range with just letting out the clutch, no additional throttle needed. But I have a gearing advantage. 5:1 atlas, 4.88:1 axle ratios, and a NV3550 with a 4.02:1 first gear.
4.02x5.0x4.88= 98:1 crawl ratio.

It is a simple fact that while slipping the clutch can help, it is no replacement for lower gearing.

One other thing that helped me being smooth on the throttle was to wedge my right foot against the transmission tunnel and use that as a support while applying the throttle. Any hopping or bouncing that happens won't affect your right foot since it is being braced against the trans tunnel and floor.

I added a second spring on the throttle body to help.woth the surging issue.
Other than lower gears, you just need to practice clutch control

With 5.13s and a 4:1 case, its pretty much point and shoot.now.


Also, try to buddy up with someone that also wheels.a manual.

While I agree that being smooth has a lot to do with it, as well as a good crawl ratio...
I dissagree that you need 100:1 to make it worth your while and have fun at it.

You don't need a 5:1 case to have fun, you just need to finess things a bit more.
I have seen a AX15, 231(2.72), 8.25 (3.55) equipped XJ (CR around 38), do wonderous things.

I guess it's all in how you dance

IslanderOffRoad said:

What ratios are you running in the axles?

I've only ever wheeled with a manual trans. most wranglers are manual trans as well. Practice makes perfect. A heavy foot can compensate

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I honestly don't know. Other than changing the gear oil, I haven't done anything to the diff. It's the stock Chrystler 8.25, and I'm pretty sure it didn't come with the towing package unless somebody removed it, so I doubt its the 3.73. Im guessing as its the 3.07. Which would explain why it is so eager to stall, this jeep has always felt a bit tall in the gears, I rarely ever get out of 4th gear even at 80mph+.

ZenDragon said:

I honestly don't know. Other than changing the gear oil, I haven't done anything to the diff. It's the stock Chrystler 8.25, and I'm pretty sure it didn't come with the towing package unless somebody removed it, so I doubt its the 3.73. I read somewhere that the 6cyl manual without the tow package came with a 3.07. Does that sound right? Which would explain why it is so eager to stall, this jeep has always felt a bit tall in the gears, I rarely ever get out of 4th gear even at 80mph+.

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What size tires you running

WB9YZU said:

I have seen a AX15, 231(2.72), 8.25 (3.55) equipped XJ (CR around 38), do wondrous things.

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I have the exact same setup on 33's and it's worked well for me too. Although it would be nice to have something a little shorter.

ZenDragon said:

I honestly don't know. Other than changing the gear oil, I haven't done anything to the diff. It's the stock Chrystler 8.25, and I'm pretty sure it didn't come with the towing package unless somebody removed it, so I doubt its the 3.73. Im guessing as its the 3.07. Which would explain why it is so eager to stall, this jeep has always felt a bit tall in the gears, I rarely ever get out of 4th gear even at 80mph+.

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Sounds like 3.07's to me...

So it seems to me that maybe something 4.10 or 4.56 ratio should probably solve most most of my woes. Does that seem reasonable?

It's not my daily driver but I do often have to drive on the freeway several hours out to a trail so it still needs to be somewhat road friendly. Until I now I didn't realize the stock gear ratio on the 6cyl manual was so low! 3.07?!? Wtf?! lol

ROBZ95Xj said:

What size tires you running

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31x10, not large by any means.

Ford 8.8s can be readily found with 4.10s in.the junkyard

The 4cyl dana 30s less so

I ran 3.07s for years until.I stepped up to 4.10s big difference
5.13s are better yet, but way overkill.for what youre doing

ZenDragon said:

31x10, not large by any means.

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ok, so let me tell you my experience.

3.55s and 30's is stock ratio.
31's and 3.73s is stock ratio.

34's and 3.73s sucks.
35's and 4.56 is fawesome.

So, do you plan on going to 33's or something in the future? you've got the suspension to fit them.
If so, go immediately to 4.56's, deal with the highway RPMs until you move to 33's/35's.
If not, do 4.10s and you'll be quite happy with a setup that's just a touch deeper than stock, which is really where you want to be as they were undergeared.
How you get there is all up to you, but gears is what you need.

Wheeling a manual can be very enjoyable, But its a little more complicated to make it enjoyable.. Gearing is everything.. You'll likely end up with 33s at some point, I advise going straight to 4.88s (lowest you can go in a HP30) that should help alot

Deeper T-case gearing will really be the cats Meow tho.. I know a few guys that really enjoy(ed) the Teraflex 4.1 low.. Or the 241OR Rubicon T-case, Or an Atlas 2 or 4 speed..

It's all on how much money you want to spend.. 5 years ago, I was a die-hard manual trans guy.. but I hated it offroad, Here I am 5 years later putting an atlas 4speed with 5.38 axle gearing for 37s behind an automatic.... If I ever rig-swap down the road.. I'll be looking for a 5 speed XJ

I've seen too many 4.88 D30s blown up to trust it.
I'd stick with 4.56s simply to get the stronger gear set.

87manche said:

I've seen too many 4.88 D30s blown up to trust it.
I'd stick with 4.56s simply to get the stronger gear set.

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True.. But I've blown up 3 HP30/4.56 setups.. so I finally just figured it really depends on the driver :dunce:

NW-ZJ-SCOTT said:

True.. But I've blown up 3 HP30/4.56 setups.. so I finally just figured it really depends on the driver :dunce:

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my 4.56 one was pretty solid. I only ever broke it wheeling cause it had spare shafts in it with 260 sized joints.

a 260 joint will break climbing a 4 inch ledge with 35's.:dunce:

87manche said:

ok, so let me tell you my experience.

3.55s and 30's is stock ratio.
31's and 3.73s is stock ratio.

34's and 3.73s sucks.
35's and 4.56 is fawesome.

So, do you plan on going to 33's or something in the future? you've got the suspension to fit them.
If so, go immediately to 4.56's, deal with the highway RPMs until you move to 33's/35's.
If not, do 4.10s and you'll be quite happy with a setup that's just a touch deeper than stock, which is really where you want to be as they were undergeared.
How you get there is all up to you, but gears is what you need.

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33s... I dunno maybe at some point not in the very near future though. The lift I got said max size was 31 but I believe that was with the stock fenders, I later had the fenders trimmed up (cut and fold in the back) so I'm sure I could fit 33s now without a problem. Anyhow I've already got spares in 31s so I'll probably be sticking with this at least until this set wears out. That said, let me ask you this: if I went 4.10, would that be too low if or when I move to 33s? Otherwise I don't mind too much dealing with the 4.56 highway RPMs.

87manche said:

my 4.56 one was pretty solid. I only ever broke it wheeling cause it had spare shafts in it with 260 sized joints.

a 260 joint will break climbing a 4 inch ledge with 35's.:dunce:

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lol.. Alloys with welded caps moves your weak link to the pinion:eye: