Quick newbie question.

My XJ is mostly stock as far as the drive train is concerned. Stock transfer case, stock differentials, etc. So I was doing a little light offroading this weekend with a friend and just for shits and giggles we were trying to see who could get farther up on a soft sandy embankment. I dropped it into 4 low and started crawling up but didn't get anywhere once the front wheels got into the soft sand they just stopped moving entirely and nothing moved but the rear wheels which did nothing but dig holes in the ground lol. Im pretty sure the 4wd is working as the front wheels definitely pull under normal conditions, just curious as to why I did so horrible on the softer sand. I at least expected the front wheels to spin in the sand but they they did nothing.

This is my first decent 4x4 so please pardon my newbishness lol. I'm sure a locker in the rear would have helped but that doesn't really explain why the front wheels weren't moving. What gives?

Its a 95 Cherokee 2dr. With the 4.0, AX15, and I believe the NP 231, Chrystler 8.25... like I said pretty much stock although its lifted 4.5 inches with 32 inch tires.

sounds like you were in 2wd

4hi is better in the sand, momentum is your friend
Imagine a dune buggy, 2k lbs tops. Rear engine, big paddles.
Now look at your jeep, heavy iron front engine, heavy 4wd front axle, 31s
bit of a difference? Jeeps arent that great in sand, being stickshift justt makes it harder.
what was your buddy driving?
Are you sure the passenger front wasnt spinnining?

He was driving a 2000 4Runner (I think probably with the factory locker). And (for jeepguy) I was def in 4LO. Its possible the passenger wheel may have been spinning but I felt no power from the front whatsoever and didn't see the passenger side tossing up any sand. In any case this obviously wasn't any sort of serious exercise lol but there was no room for any momentum, we were just screwing around going up the side of the wash from a stop.

I'm pretty sure his factory locker had a lot to do with the fact that he was able to get up further, but I definitely noticed his front wheels turning when he was going up. Honestly I could care less about going on the sand, I have no intention of really doing a lot of that kind of terrain. But it just made me what to know/understand if either something is not working correctly, in general how it should work normally, and also what I can do to make it better. I have some experience working on cars so can def follow you if you want to get technical, I just haven't worked with 4x4s and don't fully understand how exactly all the extra stuff works.

Take a friend out to a dirt road, kick him out on the side of the road, put it in 4 low and stomp it. If either side of the front breaks loose its in 4wd and working fine. If only one side peels out its normal because you arent locked up, all the power gets transferred to the "lightest" side of the car, or tire with the least resistance. Hence if you are flexing out your suspension, the one thats in the air spins and not the one on the ground.

If you are in 4wd and it doesnt work as stated above you have a problem and i would start with the linkage. make sure the lever is engaged in the position you are trying to use, like mine does not line up fully with the writing on the bezel because i have a t case drop, and mine is hard to get back in to 2wd because of that. so i use feel to know whether it got into the right selection i was going for... make sense?

So I tested the 4WD by straddling a paved road and the dirt side, with the rear wheels on the dirt and the front on the pavement I put it in 4WD and gassed. If the 4WD wasnt working the rear wheels would have just spun without much traction, however the front obviously had traction on the pavement and pulled me right up without much wheel spin. So I am fairly certain at this point that the 4WD is working.

If it matters at all I have a 95 XJ which as I'm sure you all know has the non-disconnect dana 30 front axle. I know the previous one used a vacuum actuated slide collar that was prone to failure, how exactly does that work in this particular model?

I gather at this point, that my experience is more due to crappy stock equipment and these open differentials. So I guess the question at this point is, what is the first step to getting this thing into proper shape? A rear locker would have no doubt made a difference. Im sure it's not recommended to put a locker in the front for obviously reasons. Is there anything I can do with the transfer case to improve the situation?

Front locker is your friend

You can put a locker in either axle, the front one will only work in 4wd when it has power applied to it. That being said, if you are on a tight trail in 4wd with a front locker your turning radius will be affected and you will have to go from 4 to 2wd to make tight maneuvers, unless you spend the money on a selectable... ected, arb, ox.

The debate on front vs rear will go on forever, and the bottom line really is that either one will improve your capabilities.

For the future, air pressure makes a huge difference, especially in the sand. I remember being out at glamis back when I had my Toyota p/u. At 14psi i did nothing but dig holes. Dropped down to 11psi and made it up with ease.

Even on harder packed dirt and rock trails, airing down to about 20psi will greatly improve your traction and make for a much for comfortable ride.

Know that the bigger your tires are, the lower you can go. Go to low on smaller tires and you ding your rims or throw a bead. And remember to air up as soon as you can once you get back on the street!

Sorry if this is stuff you already know...

Good to know. I have a decent budget for this, def won't be skipping out on critical components. Just want to make sure it's going to the right place, my goal here is just to bulletproof the bottom end as much as possible. So far I've done dana spicer ball joints and u joints, I've replaced the wheel hub assemblies, and a few other bushings and odds and ends with higher quality OE stuff. I also had the transmission rebuilt with a heavy duty input shaft, new clutch, and a few other upgrades.

My focus now is just on the transfer case and axles where needed, I really just don't know enough about what is necessary and what is not with the XJ, and I don't want to take it into a shop and have them try to take advantage of my lack of experience and bull shit me to make an extra buck. I know enough to know when I'm being dicked around and I have yet to find a shop that doesn't try desperately to do so, when I start asking questions on things that I am not totally clear on.

And yea the tire pressure thing was probably a big issue. I didn't air down the tires because we were quite a ways away from anywhere we could air up, and I don't have a compressor.

Thanks guys I appreciate all your input! I didnt mean to turn this into a "what should I buy thread" I just didn't realize how lacking the stock equipment actually was until this little "exercise" lol and I want to learn as much as I can going forward!

A cheap but effective route would be - 29 spline 8.25, direct swap, all day $100-$150. You can lock it up, weld it up, leave it open etc... front, find some upgraded factory shafts with the 760x u joint found in ABS Cherokees or newer models.

This will get you safely running 33's all day. A few members have run larger and I've got a friend that ran 36's with the Dana 30. Its not advised but its been done

Or if you have a "decent budget" source some other axles... Ford 8.8's go for about double the 8.25 around here. Then find a front 44 or better, if your plans are to run larger tires or even just have a bulletproof drivetrain with 33's...

The 8.8 requires a little welding though

I am not opposed to swaps and the like, but this is my daily driver not a dedicated trail rig. When I say "decent budget" I'm talking 3-4k max for drivetrain improvements. Im not going to be doing UROC or anything any time soon, just need something that is tough enough for 3.5/4 rated trails at best to get me to those nice camping spots without breaking anything.

That said, I'm trying to utilize as much "stock" equipment as possible without doing too much custom fabrication. Partially because I don't feel I have enough experience to make the right decisions yet in regards to what I really want/need. But also because once I get another daily driver I plan on doing the Clayton 6.5" 3 link front and rear coil conversion, and I want to avoid any overlapping efforts/upgrades.

The 8.25 29 spline swap doesn't sound like a bad idea if I could actually find one for that cheap! Is it worth the effort?

Also, I asked earlier about the non-disconnect D30... I know the old ones had the slide collar, but how is it working in this one? I've searched around a bit but cant find much of an explanation.

you should not have a disconnect 30, if you have the housing but its blocked off then somebody before you did the conversion, where you get a seal for the disconnect housing and then put in a regular long side shaft from any other cherokee... I wouldnt be worried about it.

The effort of putting in the 29 spline 8.25 replacing the existing 27 spline is this. Jack vehicle up and support the body and droop the axle down, unbolt shocks, driveline, brake union, take e brake cables off, drop axle from springs and reinstall the new one in reverse order with NEW 3" ubolts and nuts... if you planned it out ahead of time you could do it in an hour. i did mine in about an hour and a half but i also had to redo a hard brake line fitting on the jeep and then figure out my install for the ebrake cable with the disc brake swap i did on it. cake.

Also, pick and pulls around here have complete rear axle assemblies for something like $160. but we have an online classified through a news company that has powertrain/ rock crawler sections and they are on there all day for 100-150, in fact there are 3 right now



read this about the dana 30---- http://www.therangerstation.com/tech_library/Dana30.htm

Breezio69 said:

you should not have a disconnect 30, if you have the housing but its blocked off then somebody before you did the conversion, where you get a seal for the disconnect housing and then put in a regular long side shaft from any other cherokee... I wouldnt be worried about it.

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Its definitely a non-disconnect axle. Looks very much like this. I took a picture of it with my camera, but I left the camera at my girlfriends place. According to Jeep Wiki axles up to 92 where vacuum disconnect and 92+ are non-disconnect. Anyhow Im am absolutely sure there is no disconnect housing, that's definitely something that would be easily recognizable.

Breezio69 said:

The effort of putting in the 29 spline 8.25 replacing the existing 27 spline is this. Jack vehicle up and support the body and droop the axle down, unbolt shocks, driveline, brake union, take e brake cables off, drop axle from springs and reinstall the new one in reverse order with NEW 3" ubolts and nuts... if you planned it out ahead of time you could do it in an hour. i did mine in about an hour and a half but i also had to redo a hard brake line fitting on the jeep and then figure out my install for the ebrake cable with the disc brake swap i did on it. cake.

Also, pick and pulls around here have complete rear axle assemblies for something like $160. but we have an online classified through a news company that has powertrain/ rock crawler sections and they are on there all day for 100-150, in fact there are 3 right now

Click to expand...

Seems easy enough, the "pick and pulls" around here are pretty much picked though and I haven't had much luck finding Cherokee stuff in the past when I was looking for other small pieces. But I am keeping my eyes open, maybe ill get lucky! I think it might also be worth keeping an eye open for a D44 from an '87-'90. From what I am reading thats a direct swap for the most part correct? Anyhow, thanks for the info!

ZenDragon said:

Its definitely a non-disconnect axle. Looks very much like this. I took a picture of it with my camera, but I left the camera at my girlfriends place. According to Jeep Wiki axles up to 92 where vacuum disconnect and 92+ are non-disconnect. Anyhow Im am absolutely sure there is no disconnect housing, that's definitely something that would be easily recognizable.



Seems easy enough, the "pick and pulls" around here are pretty much picked though and I haven't had much luck finding Cherokee stuff in the past when I was looking for other small pieces. But I am keeping my eyes open, maybe ill get lucky! I think it might also be worth keeping an eye open for a D44 from an '87-'90. From what I am reading thats a direct swap for the most part correct? Anyhow, thanks for the info!

Click to expand...

The Cherokee 44 is the same swap as the c 8.25 essentially. The 44 will have a ton a aftermarket support which is nice. But, there is tradeoffs of both, the 44 has smaller tubes, not much bigger ring gear, and by the time you find one it will be double to.triple the cost of the 29 spline 8.25. The downside of the 8.25 is gearing stops at 4.88 and aftermarket support has started to.come around a little bit... but its usually more expensive because only a few company's offer things for it. Some stuff I've priced out in the past seems to.be about 20% more than say a Dana 30/35/44 part

ZenDragon said:

Also, I asked earlier about the non-disconnect D30... I know the old ones had the slide collar, but how is it working in this one? I've searched around a bit but cant find much of an explanation.

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it doesn't. The non disconect D30 is always engaged. The pinion and driveshaft always turn.

A 29 spline 8.25 is good to 35's.
A d30 is Also good to 35's if you don't wheel like an idiot.

All of this is a pretty moot point if your future plans include a 6.5" lift, as you'll be throwing gears at the axles anyway.

If it were mine, I'd lunchbox lock it, then wait for lift to do any major upgrades, because you'll be regearing, and that's the time to spend money and put selectable lockers in upgraded axles, with upgraded steering and brakes.

I test 4WD by easing up to an immovable object such as a concrete foundation (not a power pole) with enough dirt around it to accommodate the vehicle, engaging 4WD and giving it enough gas to spin tires. Without lockers, you should see at least one front and one rear tires digging holes. I live out in the country and there are farms around where you can find big concrete foundations for well pump engines where you can get to them. I don't recommend a post or other narrow item because you don't want to damage your bumper.

I've got a used Aussie locker for a 29 spline 8.25 you could pm me about if you want to go that route.

87manche said:

it doesn't. The non disconect D30 is always engaged. The pinion and driveshaft always turn.

A 29 spline 8.25 is good to 35's.
A d30 is Also good to 35's if you don't wheel like an idiot.

All of this is a pretty moot point if your future plans include a 6.5" lift, as you'll be throwing gears at the axles anyway.

If it were mine, I'd lunchbox lock it, then wait for lift to do any major upgrades, because you'll be regearing, and that's the time to spend money and put selectable lockers in upgraded axles, with upgraded steering and brakes.

Click to expand...

That's kind of where I'm stuck right now. I mean, the open diffs obviously aren't cutting it. Even for the easy to moderate wheeling that I do. I don't plan on going any bigger than 33's as that is the max size Clayton recommends for the 6.5" without rubbing. That's probably a year out at least anyway. So if I am understanding you all, I think right now my best bet for the rear is probably to source a 8.25 29-spline locally somewhere and add a locker. That should give me a reasonably beefy rear and that should be usable later on. Yea? For the front, you you all recommend just sticking with the D30 and just add a locker? What do you all think about these RCV axles? What about the transfer case? Anything worth doing there right now? From what I'm reading the NP231 holds it's own pretty well, although I'm sure a slip yoke elimination is in order at some point.

Pardon my ignorance, but I'm still unclear as to how the non-disconnect works. You say its always engaged. So where/how is it disconnected from the driveline rotation? In the transfer case I'm assuming? That's guess that's the only place that makes sense.