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Loss of road feel with Hydro Assist

old_man

old_man

NAXJA Forum User
Location
Loveland, Colorado
I am doing a 130 mile round trip commute now and due to problems with my DD, I am doing it with my XJ with hydro assist on 35's with the Stroker. I am running the high output/pressure 2001 WJ pump with a smaller pulley. The road feel has almost completely gone away and I have to concentrate a lot more on keeping in my lane. Has anybody else seen this? I am thinking about dialing back the caster to add a touch more stability.
 
what steering box? i have two friends with PSC kits, one has the 'street' the other the 'extreme.' the street kit has a fair amount of road feel, not quite stock but its there. the extreme kit feels like youre playing a video game. dialing caster back would be a good start i'd think.
 
What is this thing you talk about? You mean you buy parts for your rig instead of building them yourself?

I have probably rebuilt a hundred steering boxes on the side. It is a Renix era box I rebuilt and tapped. I am running a 1.5" ram.
 
I'm just thinking at random here, but could you split the pump output to the ram to include a bypass line and adjustable valve to allow you control of how much pump pressure actually gets to the ram so you can dial back the assist it gives while on pavement but turn it back up while on the trail?

bypass line totally closed = full hydro assist
bypass line partially open = proportional reduction of assist level
bypass line totally open = minimal hydro assist

Probably the bypass line would need to be of smaller diameter than the mains to ensure that the minimum assist level would be non-zero to keep fluid circulating through the ram (I'd assume it's necessary to keep the ram and its seals happy).

Don't know if this is actually workable, but it sounds plausible. If nothing else, it's food for thought.

Rob
 
Why not just put in a pressure adjustment valve and mess around with it until if feels right that way you can just open it back up and run full hydro again on the trails.
 
Rob Mayercik said:
I'm just thinking at random here, but could you split the pump output to the ram to include a bypass line and adjustable valve to allow you control of how much pump pressure actually gets to the ram so you can dial back the assist it gives while on pavement but turn it back up while on the trail?

bypass line totally closed = full hydro assist
bypass line partially open = proportional reduction of assist level
bypass line totally open = minimal hydro assist

Probably the bypass line would need to be of smaller diameter than the mains to ensure that the minimum assist level would be non-zero to keep fluid circulating through the ram (I'd assume it's necessary to keep the ram and its seals happy).

Don't know if this is actually workable, but it sounds plausible. If nothing else, it's food for thought.

Rob
Click to expand...

I thought about a bypass for the dual action cylinder, but there is a big problem with doing that. If the bypass is sealed, you have the balance problem where the side with the rod had proportionately less volume per inch of trave than the other side. This will lead to a pressure buildup on one side or the other.
 
SpencerKemp said:
Why not just put in a pressure adjustment valve and mess around with it until if feels right that way you can just open it back up and run full hydro again on the trails.
Click to expand...

Do you have a source for an adjustable pressure regulator that can handle the flow needed and work at 5,000psi and be reliable enough to trust your life to it? And by the way, it has to cost less than the vehicle.
 
I bet it costs over a thousand for the simple pressure regulator.
 
I know exactly what you mean about the loss of feeling the road, when I was driving mine every day on the road I snagged a set of needle valves from work I was going to put inline to turn the pressure down for the street. I never did install them and it doesn't really see the road anymore. If you think they'd work i'd sell them to you for damn near nothing.

mms_picture.jpg
 
Unbolt that ram. Take the lines off at the box. Cap the fittings at the box. Reinstall when DD is fixed or when offroad trip is planned. Sounds kinda simple to me. Two bolts two caps. Same plan for if a ram or line to your ram fails on the trail.
 
POLAR_JEEP_04 said:
Unbolt that ram. Take the lines off at the box. Cap the fittings at the box. Reinstall when DD is fixed or when offroad trip is planned. Sounds kinda simple to me. Two bolts two caps. Same plan for if a ram or line to your ram fails on the trail.
Click to expand...

And lose quite a bit of fluid every time you attach and detach the lines? Plus bleeding the system every time?
 
X1994J said:
I know exactly what you mean about the loss of feeling the road, when I was driving mine every day on the road I snagged a set of needle valves from work I was going to put inline to turn the pressure down for the street. I never did install them and it doesn't really see the road anymore. If you think they'd work i'd sell them to you for damn near nothing.

mms_picture.jpg
Click to expand...

Who makes these?
 
Just how do you propose to hook up those valves? One on each side of the cylinder?

If so, think about it. If you shut down the flow to the cylinder, you lock the cylinder. If you restrict it, you restrict the movement of the cylinder. Driving with slow reaction in the steering is suicidal.

Yes, I could plug the box and remove the cylinder. I've done it before. It is messy. Burping the system is no big deal, I just don't want to have to pull everything apart all the time.

The biggest problem is that the steering is simply so powerful that the feedback normally felt through the steering is overwhelmed. I have been working on designing a product that will fix this problem.
 
old_man said:
Just how do you propose to hook up those valves? One on each side of the cylinder?
Click to expand...

How about doing that and adding a third valve, between the ram's two inlets, that, when open, allows the fluid in the ram to recirculate, eliminating the restriction.
It would require turning three valves but is a lot cleaner and easier than pulling and capping lines.
 
Maybe I'm to tired too think about it. But cant you just install inline shut-off valves at the Box taps and disconnect the Cylinder from your steering? Wouldn't your steering just run off the box then.



Also.... Old_man.....clean out your inbox....
I never received your gasket in the mail, did you resend it? I'm expecting other packages and I hope theirs not a problem that I dont know about. DO NOT send another one! I need to figure out this problem.....
 
Last edited:
old_man said:
Just how do you propose to hook up those valves? One on each side of the cylinder?

If so, think about it. If you shut down the flow to the cylinder, you lock the cylinder. If you restrict it, you restrict the movement of the cylinder. Driving with slow reaction in the steering is suicidal.

Yes, I could plug the box and remove the cylinder. I've done it before. It is messy. Burping the system is no big deal, I just don't want to have to pull everything apart all the time.

The biggest problem is that the steering is simply so powerful that the feedback normally felt through the steering is overwhelmed. I have been working on designing a product that will fix this problem.
Click to expand...


It would not completely shut down flow to the cylinder, these are adjustable and you could simply turn down the flow, which in my mind would make it less jerky on the road. Maybe I should just install these on mine and give it a shot.

Your best bet would be to install some sort of pin on one side you could disconnect one side of the ram.
 
X1994J said:
It would not completely shut down flow to the cylinder, these are adjustable and you could simply turn down the flow, which in my mind would make it less jerky on the road. Maybe I should just install these on mine and give it a shot.

Your best bet would be to install some sort of pin on one side you could disconnect one side of the ram.
Click to expand...

Cutting down the flow would be tricky. Like I said, if you shut down both sides, the ram is locked. The sensitivity is the problem at low flow situations. Cutting it down enough to help the sensitivity would almost lock up the cylinder. You would have to take 30 seconds to go from lock to lock.

A bypass on the ram does not work either since the volumes are different on the different sides of the ram due to the area displaced by the rod.

You might get away with one on the pressure supply side, but it might be a bit tough on the pump.

Taking off pressure fittings and putting them on a couple of times a week is not an option. They simply would not last, not to mention the hassle.
 
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