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brake problems

canadianlaxer

NAXJA Forum User
hi, i have a 98 xj i'm having problems with my rear brakes. i can get fluid to the rear if i use a vacuum bleeder, but i cant get any with the brake pedal. what would cause fluid to not go to the rear? is it my proportioning valve?

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thanks, Mark
 
Booster maybe...what does the pedal feel like? Stock rear drums?

The prop valve shouldn't engage until it reaches it's threshold pressure. When and how did this start? Have you looked at the prop valve internals?
 
No abs, stock drums, its probably been like this since i bought it, I noticed it when i put the lift and tires on. Now that I've vacuum bled it the pedal is firm for the last inch or two of stroke (is that normal for a xj?) I can open the rear bleeders with pressure on the pedal and it doesn't go down at all. I've already replaced the master cylinder (and yes i bench bled it first) the wheel cylinders and shoes, and I undid the rear brake lines and blew them out with compressed air.
 
Did you take a look inside the prop valve?
 
Question from DJ
You stated “I undid the rear brake lines and blew them out with compressed air”
The question is where did you apply the air pressure and where did you release that air pressure?
 
There should be an intitial bit of travel on the pedal then it should firm up. Test it with the engine off. Pedal should move a bit and then get hard. It feels different with the booster operating. It is possible that you still have air in the back lines. Bleed them until you are SURE there is not any air left in the system.

According to the FSM, if fluid enters the prop valve and exits the valve, it is good. Otherwise it fails the simple test and needs to be replaced. In my opinion, using copressed air was not the best idea. I believe you still have air hiding in the system and will need to be aggressively bled out.

Just my .02...
 
Did you take a look inside the prop valve?

Yes I pulled it apart to make sure it wasn't seized and reassembled it. Is there any thing in particular I should be looking for?

Question from DJ
You stated “I undid the rear brake lines and blew them out with compressed air”
The question is where did you apply the air pressure and where did you release that air pressure?

I unscrewed them at both ends and blew them out front to back.

There should be an intitial bit of travel on the pedal then it should firm up. Test it with the engine off. Pedal should move a bit and then get hard. It feels different with the booster operating. It is possible that you still have air in the back lines. Bleed them until you are SURE there is not any air left in the system.

According to the FSM, if fluid enters the prop valve and exits the valve, it is good. Otherwise it fails the simple test and needs to be replaced. In my opinion, using copressed air was not the best idea. I believe you still have air hiding in the system and will need to be aggressively bled out.

Just my .02...

I agree there could still be some air in the lines, but if it's the problem shouldn't something happen when I open the bleeder?

Mark
 
Have the hard and soft lines to the rear been replaced, lately or ever? I've run into different problems through the years because of lines that you THINK are OK, but...

If in doubt, replace them, and let us know what you've found.
 
Yes I pulled it apart to make sure it wasn't seized and reassembled it. Is there any thing in particular I should be looking for?

Mark

Anything that looks wrong and might block the flow. If it looks good, it's probably good.

Start ruling out parts and portions of the system...maybe try disconnecting the soft line at the T on the axel and see if you can get fluid there?
 
Finally got time to work on it today, cracked the lines at the master, no pressure going to the rear so I pulled the master to adjust the pushrod in the booster.

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Is it supposed to be bent like that? and does any one know how long it's should be adjusted?
 
Certainly should not be bent. Both my 95 and 99 FSM make no mention of adjusting this pushrod, and both, in the cutaway diagram, show the screw in all the way with no thread showing. I don't know whether there is supposed to be a fine adjustment here, but my guess is that it got unscrewed or was installed wrong, and bent when the MC bottomed out, or perhaps bent when a previous defective MC broke.

If I were putting this back together, I'd straighten the rod, assuming it can't be replaced, and start with the screw all the way in, and try to adjust it for zero or nearly zero play. If you're lucky it will turn out that it needs no fine adjustment, but if it does, you might be able to do this with depth gauges, measuring the distance from the mounting surface of the booster to the point of the rod, and comparing it to the distance from the MC mounting flange to the bottom of the recess in the piston. It might be possible just to bolt on the MC and feel for play, but I don't know how well you'll be able to distinguish that play from what exists elsewhere in the linkages.

I'd be a little suspicious of that rod, because if it's been bent once it might be susceptible to bending again in a panic stop. It's your call, but I'd be inclined to try to hunt down another booster, or at least another rod, if there's one to be had at the local junkyard.
 
Well last night I straightened my pushrod and reinstalled my master cylinder, and now fluid flows freely to the back when i push the pedal. So I bled the brakes, and the pedal feels great, until I turn the truck on. With the truck on the pedal goes to the floor with no effort and I put it in drive with the rear jacked up and the tires off and there isn't even enough braking to stop the axles spinning. what would cause this?

Mark
 
Well today I re-bled the system and readjusted the shoes and it works. So I took it for a test drive and noticed that it was pulling to the left a little when I braked, so I headed home and took a look at the passenger side and found this

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after a trip to the parts store it now looks like this

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and works great, just in time to go wheeling on the weekend.

Thanks, Mark
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Well, there's your problem...



Also, you should use jack stands...those floor jacks blow seals and drop all the time.
 
Jeeps were recalled for that very problem, back around the year 2000. I remember because we had a '98 ZJ, and I bought my '92 XJ the year before, and they both got treated to new front rotors. The crappy rotors they installed, on both vehicles, were warped in a few months, and were replaced again. My neighbor's '96 XJ did have a rotor break in the same fashion as yours. If you're close to a Chrysler dealer, it may be worth a stop to see if there's anything they can tell you. Their system should be able to tell you if the recall for the composite rotors was ever done.
 
Jeeps were recalled for that very problem, back around the year 2000. I remember because we had a '98 ZJ, and I bought my '92 XJ the year before, and they both got treated to new front rotors. The crappy rotors they installed, on both vehicles, were warped in a few months, and were replaced again. My neighbor's '96 XJ did have a rotor break in the same fashion as yours. If you're close to a Chrysler dealer, it may be worth a stop to see if there's anything they can tell you. Their system should be able to tell you if the recall for the composite rotors was ever done.
Did the recall replace with cast, or with another composite? The one in the picture certainly looks like a composite (rounded corners on the "hat.").
 
My understanding was that they were replacing the OEM composite with cast rotors, at least in the 'rust belt' states. If I recall correctly, the recall even stated that they were focusing on states that received 'significant' snowfall. The broken rotor in the picture certainly looks like a composite, especially in the way it has failed. I'm guessing that British Columbia would qualify as a Snow Belt area, and that Canadian provinces probably use some sort of salt or chloride-based solvent on their roads.
 
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