MY ANGER IS GROWING TO HATRED!

[joe_peters]

These Internationale Progressive Socialist clowns have got to go!

Where in the hell did they get 12 people STUPID enough to convict this guy given the testimony in court?

Twelve people too stupid to know how much federal agents LIE?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/09/09/texas-gun-dealer-gets-prison-sentence-selling-gun-illegal-immigrant-id-illegal/?test=latestnews

[AIbandit]

"The Defendant then instructed Mr. Aviles to hand the firearm back to the straw purchaser because he had 'bought' the firearm"

That should of been the end of the case right there.

[mcantar18c]

That's fawkin ridiculous. How the hell did they come to that verdict?

By their logic... if get t-boned in an intersection by someone running a red, the accident is my fault because I should have known he was gonna run it.

[Darky]

It was a bad call on the dealer's part. Gun sales is not an area to play around in. I used to work for a sporting goods store and was in a position where I could sell guns. If I had even the slightest inkling that something was below the boards, I had to refuse the sale. If I didn't, I would be charged, the manager would be charged, and the company would be fined something like $50,000, per incident. I don't recall if the background check done out here is a federal requirement or a CA requirement, but I'm pretty sure it goes through the DOJ. If it's a federal requirement, the straw man should've been found to be ineligible to purchase.

Sounds to me like the guy screwed up and is paying the consequences.

EDIT: I don;t know how background checks apply at gun shows either, but all the more reason to be extra cautious when making the sale. And the straw man should be prosecuted as it is a crime to purchase a gun for a prohibited person. There's no reason he shouldn't be prosecuted. There should be no prosecutorial discretion in a case like this.

[ECKSJAY]

"Agents witnessed the Defendant (Copeland) negotiate a price for a handgun with Hipolito Aviles, who then handed cash to a second Hispanic male, who then handed Aviles' cash and his own identification to the defendant," the prosecution said in court documents.

Yeah, then there's this part. Long story short was that none of us were there. Get all bent and twisted if it makes you feel better...

[tbburg]

Right or wrong, the seller is serving a jail sentence.

The OUTRAGE is that the buyer and the straw purchaser both committed felonies and didn't get charged. And they won't be deported either.

[AIbandit]

Yeah, then there's this part. Long story short was that none of us were there. Get all bent and twisted if it makes you feel better...

Agreed but I don't think this eliminates "reasonable doubt" I've sold a few cars where other people haggle for the buyer. None have borrowed money from the other though :P.


Is there a law saying you can't borrow money to buy a gun? Maybe the seller wasn't paying attention during the cash transfer. Alot of possibilities but I think him telling the guy to give the weapon back is enough "reasonable doubt" for me.

[AIbandit]

Right or wrong, the seller is serving a jail sentence.

The OUTRAGE is that the buyer and the straw purchaser both committed felonies and didn't get charged. And they won't be deported either.

Are you kidding me you would charge an Illegal? throw dora the explorer in jail? omg

[mcantar18c]

Right or wrong, the seller is serving a jail sentence.

The OUTRAGE is that the buyer and the straw purchaser both committed felonies and didn't get charged. And they won't be deported either.

Uh...


Aviles, the undocumented immigrant, was charged with possession of a firearm by a prohibited person, served a little over six months in prison and was deported on July 8, U.S. Attorney's Office spokesman Daryl Fields said.

[tbburg]

My bad. I read about this from another source that said the buyers weren't charged. 'Guess I was half right.

[mcantar18c]

My bad. I read about this from another source that said the buyers weren't charged. 'Guess I was half right.

The actual buyer ("straw man") hasn't been charged as far as I can tell. IMO if they were gonna pick ONE to charge they should go after him.

[ECKSJAY]

Agreed but I don't think this eliminates "reasonable doubt" I've sold a few cars where other people haggle for the buyer. None have borrowed money from the other though :P.

A car is not a firearm.

Is there a law saying you can't borrow money to buy a gun? Maybe the seller wasn't paying attention during the cash transfer. Alot of possibilities but I think him telling the guy to give the weapon back is enough "reasonable doubt" for me.

Well yeah, there are laws against straw purchasing, which is what was alleged, charged, proven, and convicted. The event was witnessed as testified, the evidence was presented, and a jury of the defendant's peers found it to be enough to convict. It doesn't get any more clear than that. This isn't an 'alleged' act that you typically see shown in the papers where charges were filed and it hasn't even been through the court yet... Given the information in the article and knowing the law, it's obvious he knowingly sold the firearm to someone buying it for another who wasn't eligible. AKA: "straw purchase".

[AIbandit]

Long story short was that none of us were there.

it's obvious he knowingly sold the firearm to someone buying it for another who wasn't eligible.


:D

[ECKSJAY]

:D

Anyone can make the point they want when they take things out of context.

[AIbandit]

I know I've been learning from fox news, can you tell?

[ECKSJAY]

I know I've been learning from fox news, can you tell?

EVERY news outlet does it. I prefer raw AP or Reuters before the fanatic clowns get hold of it.

[AIbandit]

EVERY news outlet does it. I prefer raw AP or Reuters before the fanatic clowns get hold of it.

I know I usually end up on the fox news site though. It drives me insane at a must slower rate than msnbc.

[joe_peters]

Note in the article that MULTIPLE WITNESSES disputed that any money was passed between the "straw" purchaser and the other illegal. THE BATFE AGENTS LIED UNDER OATH--as usual.

Anybody posting here actually been to a gun show with a friend? Thought about buying a gun? You and your friend BOTH looked at it? You BOTH handled it? The charges are absurd.

This is why the people at the gun shows around here are always on the lookout for BATFE agents and will shout out that they found them to the whole crowd. You should see them run for the door--its hilarious!

[ECKSJAY]

Note in the article that MULTIPLE WITNESSES disputed that any money was passed between the "straw" purchaser and the other illegal. THE BATFE AGENTS LIED UNDER OATH--as usual.

Anybody posting here actually been to a gun show with a friend? Thought about buying a gun? You and your friend BOTH looked at it? You BOTH handled it? The charges are absurd.

The seller and the third party negotiated the price, the second party made the straw purchase, and the witnesses had enough to charge and convict the seller for knowingly selling the firearm to a prohibited person. Why is that so hard for you to grasp? They weren't merely LOOKING AT firearms, there was an actual, illegal purchase/sale made here. Money doesn't have to change hands because a straw purchase isn't all monetary, it's about providing a prohibited person with an item they otherwise wouldn't be able to purchase themselves.

This is why the people at the gun shows around here are always on the lookout for BATFE agents and will shout out that they found them to the whole crowd. You should see them run for the door--its hilarious!

No, this doesn't happen and I'm calling "bullshit".

[joe_peters]

http://ramparts360.wordpress.com/2010/01/30/ (scroll down to the APD/AFT ariticle--this "selling to an illegal" scam using "pet" illegals with federally provided false ID is common practice in the border states)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=487901

http://proliberty.com/observer/20050703.htm

http://www.survival-enterprises.com/renogunshow.html


http://beforeitsnews.com/story/161/279/Feds_Convict_Texan_for_Selling_a_Gun_to_Illegal_Al ien_With_Texas_Driver_s_License.html

And yes, it has happened at shows in Medford, OR and in Grants Pass, OR. So, BS right back to you.

[ECKSJAY]

Is that a rebuttal?

[joe_peters]

Is that a rebuttal?

I was hoping it would count as one.

[ECKSJAY]

I was hoping it would count as one.

I wouldn't count on it. Battle of wits; bring ammo next time.

[iceman2001]

Hatred is a really strong word Joe_Peters.

From an outside observer this really sounds like a case of 'willful blindness'. The firearm dealer, Copeland, had a responsibility to the public to ensure that he only sold firearms to those individuals that met certain state and federal requirements.

Copeland negotiated the purchase with the Aviles (the illegal). Aviles, upon conclusion of the negotiation, provided the cash to Huerta, the stand in. Copeland must have known or should have known that he was actually selling the firearm to Aviles.

Either way, as a firearm dealer, Copeland had a duty to determine which of the two clowns was the purchaser and ascertain his eligibility under state and federal law.

It is interesting that the court although found Copeland guilty, only sentenced him to time served and probation for two years. This suggests that the court felt although it was Copeland's absolute liability, they accepted the possibility of mitigating circumstances.

But for me and the rest of the world looking in to the affairs of the U.S., (I can comment as I have relatives in the U.S. and my wife is also from there), the hatred expressed by the left and the right for each other in the U.S. is self defeating and rather sickening --I don't think that you really wish to lead yourselves to another civil war.

The U.S. citizenry has allowed its corporations to rob and pillage and send you all to the poor-house (1 in 10 of you are in foreclosure, and getting a new job means getting picked up by McDonald's instead of a decent paying manufacturing or professional job) and yet you occupy all of your individual political energy fighting over whether you need less or more government. Whether you should have social programmes or not. Blue or Red.

Joe, spend your energy of getting mad at the real culprits of your system, the people and institutions that are really f*cking over your neighbors and family. Don't let them fool you into thinking this is about the left and the right, that is a sucker's bet.

[bjoehandley]

Well said Iceman!

[kastein]

Agreed but I don't think this eliminates "reasonable doubt" I've sold a few cars where other people haggle for the buyer. None have borrowed money from the other though :P.


Is there a law saying you can't borrow money to buy a gun? Maybe the seller wasn't paying attention during the cash transfer. Alot of possibilities but I think him telling the guy to give the weapon back is enough "reasonable doubt" for me.

A car is not a firearm.
yeah, it's a multi thousand pound wheeled tool of destruction that for some reason we let any yahoo drive while drinking coffee and reading the morning paper or texting their significant other. Truth be told I'd rather everyone in the country had a gun, and fewer people had cars, people wouldn't be using the guns two or three times a day on the same public roads I am on.

But for me and the rest of the world looking in to the affairs of the U.S., (I can comment as I have relatives in the U.S. and my wife is also from there), the hatred expressed by the left and the right for each other in the U.S. is self defeating and rather sickening --I don't think that you really wish to lead yourselves to another civil war.

The U.S. citizenry has allowed its corporations to rob and pillage and send you all to the poor-house (1 in 10 of you are in foreclosure, and getting a new job means getting picked up by McDonald's instead of a decent paying manufacturing or professional job) and yet you occupy all of your individual political energy fighting over whether you need less or more government. Whether you should have social programmes or not. Blue or Red.

Joe, spend your energy of getting mad at the real culprits of your system, the people and institutions that are really f*cking over your neighbors and family. Don't let them fool you into thinking this is about the left and the right, that is a sucker's bet.
1 - a civil war will not happen, the lines between left and right are not easily drawn state by state. When you look at the map, large cities are generally more left leaning while smaller cities and less populated areas are generally more right leaning.

2 - most of the people who are in foreclosure just learned a real hard lesson in "live within your means" because they knowingly borrowed too much, more than they could even afford in a best-case, rose colored glasses world. I'm doing just fine right now... my only debts are student loans, I don't have a credit card, never have, never will, and I have money put away. I could probably get a mortgage for 150k or more and buy a house with it - but I'm not even considering it because I am not sure I want to stay with the company I'm working for, and as such don't consider my financial future solid enough to make that kind of decision. I'm looking at properties that fit my budget instead. Everyone who was foreclosed and will be foreclosed signed the paper that said they would pay back that money, under those terms, and... the reason it's called a mortgage is because it is "an agreement unto death." Look it up.

The rest of the people in foreclosure due to this mess viewed their homes as an investment, instead of property, and now that it's a losing investment ("under water") they are selfishly trying to dump it instead of carrying through on their part of the agreement. Real estate is a long, long term investment generally... if they were thinking properly, they would hold onto it until the value goes back up again, as long as they can make the payments. But then again, that would have required careful planning and saving money, something Americans are no longer good at.

[bigalpha]

yeah, it's a multi thousand pound wheeled tool of destruction that for some reason we let any yahoo drive while drinking coffee and reading the morning paper or texting their significant other.

This, for sure.

[Darky]

A car is not a firearm.



Well yeah, there are laws against straw purchasing, which is what was alleged, charged, proven, and convicted. The event was witnessed as testified, the evidence was presented, and a jury of the defendant's peers found it to be enough to convict. It doesn't get any more clear than that. This isn't an 'alleged' act that you typically see shown in the papers where charges were filed and it hasn't even been through the court yet... Given the information in the article and knowing the law, it's obvious he knowingly sold the firearm to someone buying it for another who wasn't eligible. AKA: "straw purchase".

^This. The onus is on the seller to ensure the buyer is legally allowed to buy a firearm. If there was any doubt (which to me, if the guy is talking to someone else who speaks no English about the gun and having him check it out, I'd have doubts) he has the responsibility to either deny the sale or take extra steps to be absolutely certain.

[iceman2001]

..1 - a civil war will not happen, the lines between left and right are not easily drawn state by state. When you look at the map, large cities are generally more left leaning while smaller cities and less populated areas are generally more right leaning.
..

Not all civil wars are east-west, north-south. Look at Sri Lanka, El Salvador, Bosnia, Yugoslavia, Guatemala.. My concern, shared by many, is that the attitudes of hatred and contempt by U.S. citizens toward fellow citizens and elected representatives simply because of differences in philosophy on how best to provide to the entire citizenry can only lead to violence. Do you really seek harm to your neighbor simply because he votes Democrat or Republican?

To wish such is absurd. Your political system is a two party system operating under the theory that a balance between the ideologies would serve the general population effectively, to have hatred for the other party suggests that you somehow believe that a one party system would be preferable, yet you have an even stronger stated hatred for the one party communist systems.

2 - most of the people who are in foreclosure just learned a real hard lesson in "live within your means" because they knowingly borrowed too much, more than they could even afford in a best-case, rose colored glasses world. .. .. Everyone who was foreclosed and will be foreclosed signed the paper that said they would pay back that money .. .. they are selfishly trying to dump it instead of carrying through on their part of the agreement..

All readers are sure to be happy that you are doing well and living within your means, but please have some compassion and understanding for those that were pulled down by your country's economic downturn.

They are not "selfishly trying to dump" their properties. They cannot get new financing! Their mortgage holder has called their notes because the amount owed exceeds the resale value of the property. They are faced with huge lump sum payment demands. If their $300,000 property was financed at 75% and is now worth only $200,000, their mortgage holder is demanding they pay pay down $75,000.

[kastein]

I don't hate anyone for what they voted, heck some of my best friends voted for Obama. But that's got nothing to do with the topic this thread was originally started on.

Hadn't realized that banks were demanding that people pay the difference, from what I've seen, being underwater just means that IF you sell it right now, you take the loss, while if you stay put and keep paying your agreed mortgage payments, you keep the house. If it is as you say, I fully agree, that's a pretty crappy position to be in.

[AIbandit]

yeah, it's a multi thousand pound wheeled tool of destruction that for some reason we let any yahoo drive while drinking coffee and reading the morning paper or texting their significant other. Truth be told I'd rather everyone in the country had a gun, and fewer people had cars, people wouldn't be using the guns two or three times a day on the same public roads I am on.

My point wasn't about the vehicle at all it was about transactions and people haggling for others that just don't have the skill.

Just trying to establish reasonable doubt which is all our "Justice" system needs to throw a not guilty verdict.
Or atleast that's how it should be but jurors emotions/idiocy tend to get in the way.

[Darky]

I don't hate anyone for what they voted, heck some of my best friends voted for Obama. But that's got nothing to do with the topic this thread was originally started on.

Hadn't realized that banks were demanding that people pay the difference, from what I've seen, being underwater just means that IF you sell it right now, you take the loss, while if you stay put and keep paying your agreed mortgage payments, you keep the house. If it is as you say, I fully agree, that's a pretty crappy position to be in.

I know of a couple people who have lost their homes out here and it's been largely because they just didn't want to pay anymore. They could afford it but didn't want to stop buying a bunch of other stuff.

[bigalpha]

I know of a couple people who have lost their homes out here and it's been largely because they just didn't want to pay anymore. They could afford it but didn't want to stop buying a bunch of other stuff.

:thumbdn:

[tbburg]

Haven't heard of anybody forced out of their home because of a "lump sum" owed due to depreciation. Most of them are getting hurt because they were in adjustable rate mortgages, with low introductory rates. They weren't planning on keeping the AR mortgages. They planned to re-finance well before the adjustment kicked in, but found that they couldn't get a new mortgage after the real estate down-turn that would pay off their existing mortgage and/or give them a 20K bonus due to appreciation. Now they either can't afford the higher rate, or don't want to pay it(Too much new crap to buy).
Either that, or they lost their job.

[mcantar18c]

Not all civil wars are east-west, north-south. Look at Sri Lanka, El Salvador, Bosnia, Yugoslavia, Guatemala.. My concern, shared by many, is that the attitudes of hatred and contempt by U.S. citizens toward fellow citizens and elected representatives simply because of differences in philosophy on how best to provide to the entire citizenry can only lead to violence. Do you really seek harm to your neighbor simply because he votes Democrat or Republican?

To wish such is absurd. Your political system is a two party system operating under the theory that a balance between the ideologies would serve the general population effectively, to have hatred for the other party suggests that you somehow believe that a one party system would be preferable, yet you have an even stronger stated hatred for the one party communist systems.

All readers are sure to be happy that you are doing well and living within your means, but please have some compassion and understanding for those that were pulled down by your country's economic downturn.

They are not "selfishly trying to dump" their properties. They cannot get new financing! Their mortgage holder has called their notes because the amount owed exceeds the resale value of the property. They are faced with huge lump sum payment demands. If their $300,000 property was financed at 75% and is now worth only $200,000, their mortgage holder is demanding they pay pay down $75,000.

Could be worse, Ice... I mean think about it, we could be Canadian.

[iceman2001]

Could be worse, Ice... I mean think about it, we could be Canadian.

I'll preface this post with warning that I know I'll piss several of you off, and you will retort with everything from "Go stick your head in a snow drift" to "Up yours you commie pinko socialist", just figured I would post anyway on the off chance some readers might be interested.


I gotta tell you guy, the Canadian economy is pretty good, the heath care is great and covered primarily through general taxation so it's not a hardship for our lower income citizens.

Stories about needing bureaucratic approval for treatment are just B.S., I go see my doctor (his name is Gervais, I've known him for about 10 years), we discuss my cholesterol and his squash game and he prescribes me 10 mg of Lipitor. My wife broke her ankle doing aerobics about 2 years ago and everything was covered except I paid extra (i think $80) for a walking cast, the plaster cast would have been $0. My 80 year old mother has had cataract surgery in both eyes, they replaced her lenses with artificial ones and she can see great now. My brother's wife had some complications giving birth to my new niece two years ago and required an emergency C-section, all covered and never once has any doctor needed to consult with anyone except other doctors if they need specialist advice.

Our political system is a constitutional monarchy which operates like a cross between a representational democratic republic like the U.S. has and the parliamentary monarchy that the U.K. has. We have two main parties, the Conservatives and the Liberals and then several smaller parties, The NDP, The Green, The Block. I understand we have a two Communist parties that manage to get a couple of dozen votes each but disagree with each other of some fundamental issues, way to split the lost-cause vote guys :)

We have a greater separation of church and state then the U.S. has in so much that religious prerogatives do not enter political discussion and debate, our political infrastructure is there to administer our country, not dictate our manner of living and beliefs, that is the individual's business thank you.

Down sides.. our cell phones cost too much and so do our Internet connections. Some of our government levels don't have a clue on how to not waste cash. We managed to spend a billion f*cking dollars for security on the G8 and G20 international economic conferences this summer and still managed to have a police car start on fire, and I heard that the City of Toronto just spent $100,000 on an aluminum palm tree. What the hell for, I have no idea, but I'm sure the reason is just as absurd as the price.

But the number one great thing.. have you tried our beer? :canada:

[5-90]

Joe, bear the following in mind...

"In a jury trial, your fate will now depend on twelve people who are too stupid to get out of Jury Duty."

[hubs97xj]

But the number one great thing.. have you tried our beer? :canada:

Yeah, the beer is decent, but your bacon is ****.

[mcantar18c]

I gotta tell you guy, the Canadian economy is pretty good, the heath care is great and covered primarily through general taxation so it's not a hardship for our lower income citizens.

I'd rather have a healthcare system that *I* have to pay for only when *I* need it, than have to pay for it in taxes my entire life and only really use it once every few years. On that note, if I break my arm and can't afford a hospital bill, I'll make myself a splint and wear that until it heals rather than ask everybody else to pay for my a$$.
Also, for what its worth, I have free health care. As do everybody else in the military. Funny thing about that... almost all of the military people I know, including myself, have private doctors that we pay for out of pocket and prefer to use them rather than use the military's health care system for most things.

Now, that doesn't mean I'm a heartless prick... if little Johnny down the street has cancer or something and his parents can't afford the treatment, I'll gladly help out any way that I can. But I'll help out how I choose to and because I want to, not cause the government is forcing me to via taxes.


Stories about needing bureaucratic approval for treatment are just B.S., I go see my doctor (his name is Gervais, I've known him for about 10 years), we discuss my cholesterol and his squash game and he prescribes me 10 mg of Lipitor. My wife broke her ankle doing aerobics about 2 years ago and everything was covered except I paid extra (i think $80) for a walking cast, the plaster cast would have been $0. My 80 year old mother has had cataract surgery in both eyes, they replaced her lenses with artificial ones and she can see great now. My brother's wife had some complications giving birth to my new niece two years ago and required an emergency C-section, all covered and never once has any doctor needed to consult with anyone except other doctors if they need specialist advice.

Great, glad your system works for you. YOU CAN KEEP IT. And if anybody in my country agrees with you, more power to em... they can go move to Canada, nobody's trying to stop them.


Our political system is a constitutional monarchy which operates like a cross between a representational democratic republic like the U.S. has and the parliamentary monarchy that the U.K. has.

Uh... yeah... us Americans have this thing, we really don't like being under the rule of a monarchy.


We have two main parties, the Conservatives and the Liberals and then several smaller parties

So uh, what were you saying about our party disagreements being bad for us?


We have a greater separation of church and state then the U.S. has in so much that religious prerogatives do not enter political discussion and debate, our political infrastructure is there to administer our country, not dictate our manner of living and beliefs, that is the individual's business thank you.

That's debatable.


Down sides.. our cell phones cost too much and so do our Internet connections. Some of our government levels don't have a clue on how to not waste cash. We managed to spend a billion f*cking dollars for security on the G8 and G20 international economic conferences this summer and still managed to have a police car start on fire,

Ya know, you've been talking like you're so much better than us, but it doesn't sound to me like you're all that different.


the City of Toronto just spent $100,000 on an aluminum palm tree. What the hell for, I have no idea, but I'm sure the reason is just as absurd as the price.

Easy... cause its Toronto. Its your guys' version of California, nothing but a bunch of nutjobs for the most part. Trust me I know, my entire dad's side is there.


But the number one great thing.. have you tried our beer? :canada:

I visit my dad's side of the family every few years... mainly to drink beer and stock up on Cadbury's, Aero Bars, insanely large amounts of Smarties, ketchup chips, and maple syrup :D

[ECKSJAY]

But the number one great thing.. have you tried our beer? :canada:

As a fellow of Czech descent, I will politely bow out of this debate since I won't be able to say anything nice. :)

[Darky]

We have a greater separation of church and state then the U.S. has in so much that religious prerogatives do not enter political discussion and debate, our political infrastructure is there to administer our country, not dictate our manner of living and beliefs, that is the individual's business thank you.
To what you are referring, I don't know, our "state" has no say in religious matters. The "state" has made no laws or proclamations declaring any particular religion supreme. While you're politicians may or may not mention religious beliefs, you can be sure they play into politics. A person's inner-most beliefs play a large role in deciding their actions.

[kastein]

Blah blah blah blah CANADA CANADA :worship::worship:


Dude... not sure you realized this... but this thread was about guns n shit till you showed up and immediately compared the USA to Canada on several other grounds ;). I tried to get it back on track a bit but it didn't work :roflmao:

[AIbandit]

Yeah, the beer is decent, but your bacon is ****.

Lol

[iceman2001]

Dude... not sure you realized this... but this thread was about guns n shit till you showed up and immediately compared the USA to Canada on several other grounds ;). I tried to get it back on track a bit but it didn't work :roflmao:

Yeah, didn't mean to, was originally just chastising the OP for the hatred part and the name of the thread.

As for the Canadian bacon, we're not sure how the rest of the world figures back bacon is Canadian bacon. On Sunday mornings I have the same bacon that you do with a couple of eggs. Back bacon.. I had a sandwich once with it and some hot mustard.

The beer is great, but Ecksjay is right, Czech beer is awesome, have had some from Pilsen ..way good :thumbup:

As for forced funding of healthcare.. we voted it in I think in '65.

Under rule of a monarchy.. yeah, we're not really.. she shows up every now and then wearing a silly hat and carries a rather large purse. If her idiot son ever becomes king.. I guess never too late for a revolt :)

I was never saying Party disagreements are bad for you, the expressed hatred is bad for you, if nothing else, raises your blood pressure.

Never said we were better.. and individuals here are much like individuals there, my monologue was in reply to:

Could be worse, Ice... I mean think about it, we could be Canadian.

Back to the original thread..

The U.S. court system works very well, and the principal that an accused is innocent until proven guilty is outstanding. The jury in this case heard the evidence and testimony and determined that Copeland was guilty.

However, like the OP I don't dismiss the possibility that law enforcement agent have been known to lie on the stand. If Copeland only discussed the sale with the straw purchaser then he should have been found innocent, but if the discussion went on like the ATF said, then I side with the jury.

[kastein]

agreed with that. And regardless, the straw purchaser should have gone to trial as well. Apparently he was used as a witness and as a result he wasn't charged with anything...? should have still been deported.

I don't dismiss the possibility of LEOs lying on the stand either, hell, I was called an idiot, ripped a new arsehole, and given a ticket for running a non-existent stop sign (got it thrown out in court but still had to pay the court fee :smsoap:) but their explanation makes a fair bit of sense in this case. Really, they should have had a hidden microphone or camera and microphone if they were going to go for something like this, it keeps the questions to a minimum.

[IslanderOffRoad]

Yeah, the beer is decent, but your bacon is ****.

I liked their Bacon when I was up in Montreal last summer. The beer on the other hand was too light for my tastes.