11 Sep 2001

[Mike in NJ]

Damn. I hate this day.

Too many innocent people, too many firefighters murdered.

And around here, every TV station, every radio station, every newspaper, every street corner, every look across the Hudson is a savage reminder of that day.

There's still a war on, and the scum keep murdering innocent folks around the world.

And our troops are still hunting down the evil. Won't be quick, won't be pretty, but this country better not get bored with the ugliness.

Don't want another date on the calendar that brings so much pain to the surface.

Remember, America.

Mike in NJ :patriot:

[Backdraft]

:us: :us: :us:

Mike

[TRNDRVR]

:patriot:

[2offroad]

FDNY
9-11-03
343
still manning the lines


that is a sticker that i have on my service van and XJ.

[Scott Mac.]

Amen

[STRYKER]

Originally posted by Mike in NJ
Damn. I hate this day.

Too many innocent people, too many firefighters murdered.

And around here, every TV station, every radio station, every newspaper, every street corner, every look across the Hudson is a savage reminder of that day.

There's still a war on, and the scum keep murdering innocent folks around the world.

And our troops are still hunting down the evil. Won't be quick, won't be pretty, but this country better not get bored with the ugliness.

Don't want another date on the calendar that brings so much pain to the surface.

Remember, America.

Mike in NJ :patriot:

Amen, Mike...
I don't understand those that don't understand what we're trying to do in Iraq and Afghanistan. Those are two places that A-Q is afraid to stick it's proverbial head out of it's cave.

As we move along in hunting down those responsible, the world will become increasingly smaller for the cowards that remain alive.

I join you in mourning the loss of those Americans who were just being themselves and doing what they did because of who they were.

I also worry that the weak-minded among us will forget the lessons of that attack, and that it will eventually lead to another attack that takes ten times that many because we (as a whole) didn't want to finish the job that Bush started......

[yellowxj]

Never forget.

[Lawn Cher']

I'm somewhat bothered by the blatantly passe nature of many people's patriotism. My Jeeps are some of the few vehicles that still have the Stars & Stripes blazoned on them, and we have a plethora of flags hung in my office. Very few of the people who initially raised a flag on their homes or vehicles 2 years ago still have them, and that disturbs me.

[Lucas]

The war on terrorism does not make the world smaller for terrorist groups and organizations, it only infringes on the rights of suspected people and gives incentive to those who would otherwise be classified as "radical" into bomb detonating terrorists. To curb terrorism we need to inspect WHY we were attacked... OK OK, sure, "they" hate freedom and the American way of life, but there is a reason for that and by not examining and understanding those reasons we cannot truly curb terrorism.

Let me open myself to flames and say that I detest this day. I hate the fact that in a mere two years it has made a transition from a terrible and guilty reminder into a celebration of America's policies on war and diplomacy. Though Cher' may not agree with what I say, I agree with his observation about passe' patriotism. This day has become a "checkpoint" for peoples patriotism, paying dues once a year by sticking up the stars and stripes as a token sign of solidarity.

I would go on but just thinking about today is making my blood boil.

9/11/01, Manhattan. I was there.
-Luke Son

[TC]

I agree with all of the above. My flag flew today (although nobody will see it where I live), and I was disappointed that so few were displayed. :(
People today are used to instant everything and think that in just a few months a war can be won and an entire country can be turned around; amazing.
The fact that election campaigns have begun doesn't help. The BS that the candidates are spewing is unbeliveable! (both figuratively and literally). The USA, Iraq, and the world will be better off due to our going into Iraq. War is not a video game, it's a rough, dirty business.
My heart goes out to all who have suffered on and since Sept. 11. My sincere thanks to all who sacrifice so the majority of us can sit in our comfortable homes and be safer as a result.
We must NEVER forget. TC

[sidriptide]

there he was this morning... standing on the highway overpass.. just his two small kids with him, not a crowd looking to rally behind a cause........... he stood silently, not waving as the occasional supporter honked in approval.... he just stood there holding his flag high and proud above himself and all of us around him.... he wasnt looking to be congatulated... for him i guess it just seemed like the right thing to do today.......

mike

[YELLAHEEP]

As Mike has spoken for the 343 Fire Fighters lost, I'll speak for the 60 Police/Port Authority Officers lost. I hate this day as well.

My idea of ultimate patriotism? A carpet-bombing campaign of the middle east, closure of our borders, and a seek-and-deport mission of all illegals in the U.S.

It's time to clean house..........

[GPRSDLYT]

i was across the river in d.c. that day, was working at the watergate. i ran a crew there. was on the roof when the plane went by. we all just froze......speachless. can imagine what ny was like.:(

[Lucas]

Originally posted by YELLAHEEP
A carpet-bombing campaign of the middle east, closure of our borders, and a seek-and-deport mission of all illegals in the U.S.
It's time to clean house..........

Why?


Not trying to start chit for the sake of it, but do you understand the basic dynamics of the Middle east? Not trying to be resident expert of this thread, but im doing my thesis on certian political systems in Iraq/Jordan and American's propensity for blind "retaliation" is in a word --stupid--.
Perhaps Im too close to the matter and too informed not to be pissed. WTC/serach and rescue/ I was *there*.

[STRYKER]

Originally posted by Lucas
American's propensity for blind "retaliation" is in a word --stupid--.
Perhaps Im too close to the matter and too informed not to be pissed. WTC/serach and rescue/ I was *there*.

While I respect you for having been there....
I have to draw issue with the quote above. Blind?

We know exactly who was responsible, exactly who was financing them, and exactly what they were in the market to purchase from whom. There are a great many people who can and will critisize the current administration's path.... and I look at every one of them and suspect they're probably eating from a spoon offered by the liberal press and those who are sore that Al Gore didn't get to deal with this. (THANK GOD he didn't!)

Our CIC told us that this would be long. It would be hard, and it wasn't going to be over in a year, 3 years or 5 years.....

We ALL need to stay the course, and get behind the hunt for those who are guilty and punish them....severely. That way, any other group contemplating similar course of action will think twice before engaging. To "*****foot" around with it in any less sever manner tells all who would act against us that the consequences of doing so are negligible.

When the Iranians took Russian officials hostage at about the time they took our hostages.... the Russian hostages were killed.
The Russians captured the relatives of those responsible and mailed out a body part to them every week....

To date....NO ONE else ever screwed with the Russians. The message was THAT clear.

Imagine a school yard, where several children begin to harass one child. If he shirks from confrontation with them, it enboldens the others.
But... If he kicks out and snaps one leg, grabs another and loosens teeth, the outcome is altogether different. He can come and go as he pleases thru the halls of that school.... CAUSE nobody wants to attempt to get his attention when they all now know the outcome of such an engagement.

This is the kind of action that enables "peace thru strength" initiatives. Force is demonstrated ....and then withdrawn (but it is made very clear that it will be escalated immediately if our interest are violated.)

It won out in the Cold War...cause the USSR didn't quite know how to take us. They did try to keep up, but never did they try to initiate...or provoke.
When we called them on our discovery of their actions in 1963, THEY backed down, not us.

Vietnam was lost because the liberal agenda kept the conservative one from realizing it's full potential. Had the Republicans been able to deal directly and independently, Vietnam would have taken a year.....and we'd have been victorious.....despite some not liking our tactics.

Just food for thought from a former political science major/ former Saudi security operative.:cool:

[Lucas]

I only have a min so ill be brief. Ill elaborate later.

-People engage in violent terrorists acts towards Russia almost daily.
-Where is a clear connection, financial or otherwise between the WTC attacks and Iraq? I've spoken with Scott Ritter, former USMC commander in Desert storm, CIA guru, and chief UN weapons,inspector in Iraq and he can find no such association.
-Do you really think a playground is an adequately complex analogy to the current situation?
- Despite what it looks like, we WON vietnam. The reconstruction of the country does not serve an adequately prosperous example for other southeast asian countries to adopt communism...THE publically stated goal from the onset.

[STRYKER]

Originally posted by Lucas
I only have a min so ill be brief. Ill elaborate later.

-People engage in violent terrorists acts towards Russia almost daily.
-Where is a clear connection, financial or otherwise between the WTC attacks and Iraq? I've spoken with Scott Ritter, former USMC commander in Desert storm, CIA guru, and chief UN weapons,inspector in Iraq and he can find no such association.
-Do you really think a playground is an adequately complex analogy to the current situation?
- Despite what it looks like, we WON vietnam. The reconstruction of the country does not serve an adequately prosperous example for other southeast asian countries to adopt communism...THE publically stated goal from the onset.

I'd like to know of examples of anyone that ever detained or messed with Russia (pre-Glastnost)... for my own educational purposes. I'm not being a smart azz- I really am interested in knowing.

There was none proven, but there were several A-Q camps discovered in Iraq, as well as some attacks on troops moving thru that were accredited to Al-Queda members. Scott Ritter? The one who flipped his stories like a TV channel directory?

Sorry, that one lost all credibility with us when it became apparent that he was either paid off, or someone threatened his life and scared the hell out of him if he didn't sing a different tune.
Either way, he changed his story in an absolute 180 .... so please don't use him as a shining example of "fact"

Sure. But raise the ages a little if it'll help you comprehend.
We "walked" across Iraq to Bagdad in the fastest taking of an objective in all modern time. You really think that had nothing to do with Syria coughing up info and wanting to negotiate?
Even NK looked around and stopped it's banter for a short while.
(NK is ALL about "posturing"....as you know)

Interesting thoughts about Vietnam..... I'll have to reflect on them today before I actually comment. I'm off for work, but I enjoy the exchange of opinions as long as they are informed....which yours are.

Regards,

Deano

[Jeep Biscuit]

Originally posted by STRYKER



Just food for thought from a former political science major/ former Saudi security operative.:cool:

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:



























Are you still a special agent to the directorate vice president of the special assistance to the Pentagon Joint cheifs ?:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

[Eagle]

Originally posted by YELLAHEEP
My idea of ultimate patriotism? A carpet-bombing campaign of the middle east, closure of our borders, and a seek-and-deport mission of all illegals in the U.S.

I'm not sure I can support the first of these ideas, 'cause I sort of feel that makes us no better than them, but I sure agree with the second and third!

[Eagle]

Originally posted by Lucas
- Despite what it looks like, we WON vietnam. The reconstruction of the country does not serve an adequately prosperous example for other southeast asian countries to adopt communism...THE publically stated goal from the onset.

Sorry, I was there. We absolutely, unequivocably did NOT "win" in Vietnam. We had our a$$es handed to us and we turned tail and ran home. How can you even think of suggesting we "won" when the bad guys (if that's what they were) were so hot on our tail that the last planes out of Saigon were taking fire as they lifted off?

Vietnam was not a victory, it was a debacle.

[Scott Mac.]

I heard a quote recently (in the last few months) that went something like this
"U.S. solders, sailors and airmen didn't lose in Vietnam. The U.S. government lost the Vietnam war."
I don't recall where I heard that, but it stuck in my head for some reason.

[Eagle]

Originally posted by Scott Mac.
I heard a quote recently (in the last few months) that went something like this
"U.S. solders, sailors and airmen didn't lose in Vietnam. The U.S. government lost the Vietnam war."
I don't recall where I heard that, but it stuck in my head for some reason.

Oh, I quite agree. Those of us who were on the ground (and in the air) could have won, if we had been given a green light. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff that went on. One example: I was with the 4th Infantry Division in the central highlands. Division base camp (the size of a medium city in the USA) was hit by mortar fire almost every night. We were not allowed to return fire because the mortars were set up in a rubber plantation owned by Michelin, and the French got upset if we blew up too many of their trees.

I could go on ... but it's depressing so I won't. But it's quite true that the Vietnam "conflict" (it wasn't a war because war was not declared, remember?) was lost for political rather than military reasons.

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

I don't have an answer to any of this shit, but I really feel for the National Guard and other folks that were forced into this conflict by our government. My brother in law is over there and I KNOW he doesn't want to be. Seems to me that national guard is supposed to guard the nation (USA), not travel all over the world doing the administrations dirty work. Actually, I don't think he is actually DOING jack shit over there. They aren't building schools or water plants or anything as far as I know. Jeff

[Kejtar]

but doesn't guarding your nation line have something about "foreign and domestic" in it??

I understand that it's sometimes hard, but then again when one joins up to any of the branches of the military service (and it is Army National Guard after all) one has to expect to be called upon to serve.

My many thanks go out to all that serve.

Remi aka Kejtar

[Eagle]

What I'm going to write will undoubtedly upset some of you. Let me start by reminding you that I am an Army veteran. I served when called, and I love my country. However, as the saying goes, I do fear my government, because it has become a government of professional politicians and wealthy insiders, rather than the government "of the people and by the people" that was intended by the framers of the Constitution.

There are three levels of military service currently available: The regular services (Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines -- and Coast Guard in time of war); the active reserves; and the national guard. Since Vietnam, the "gummint" has made a decision to reduce the overall size of the regular (full-time) forces. While this would appear to be in accordance with the ideals of the Founding Fathers (who did not think the government should have any standing army at all), it is a sham.

Why? Because Washington still wants to have the "benefits" of a standing army, without having a standing army. Read the recruiting information from any branch of the services, and all you'll see is a lot of fluff about how they'll give you an education, they'll teach you valable skills, yada yada. They all bend over backwards to avoid any discussion of the fact that enlistees are soldiers, who may at any moment be sent to some unlikely place to get shot at.

There have actually been a small number of desertions and AWOLS by service personnel who felt they had been deceived by the military when they enlisted. And there are huge numbers of National Guard who feel that they should not be where they are. They are probably correct. The National Guard is supposed to be the third and lowest tier in the hierarchy. Except in time of war or emergency, the National Guard belongs to the individual states. It seemingly makes no sense at all that we have federalized National Guard units and sent them to Mesopotamia when there are active reserve units still in this country. The reason is that the reserve units aren't the type of units they need in Mesopotamia, so they reached out to the Guard units to take up the slack.

What this means is that (a) the regular services and active reserves are under strength for the purposes the gummint needs ("wants") them for, and (b) there's nobody here at home guarding home base.

No matter how one looks at it, it isn't right, and it isn't smart -- but it is political.

Fire when ready, Gridley.

[STRYKER]

Originally posted by Jeep Biscuit
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Are you still a special agent to the directorate vice president of the special assistance to the Pentagon Joint cheifs ?:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

Not sure what your point is.....
Never worked for the JCS....

I did work on a security team at the Saudi Embassy in Washington DC from October 14, 1989 to July 17, 1992. I was called to accept an opening on Prince Bandar bin Sultan's team on July 2 of the same year. In late 1993, I worked for the Residence of the Qatar Ambassador to the US, and in 1994, I worked for Salmon Rushdie at a secure safehouse location on his visit to the United States.

I am very informed on the politics of the region, and was briefed daily on the possibilities that we might encounter. I have continued to follow the events in the region ever since my retirement from that arena.

If you have a valid or direct point regarding the topic of this thread, please toss it in here to be discussed in a civil manner.

[STRYKER]

Originally posted by Eagle
What I'm going to write will undoubtedly upset some of you. Let me start by reminding you that I am an Army veteran. I served when called, and I love my country. However, as the saying goes, I do fear my government, because it has become a government of professional politicians and wealthy insiders, rather than the government "of the people and by the people" that was intended by the framers of the Constitution.

There are three levels of military service currently available: The regular services (Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines -- and Coast Guard in time of war); the active reserves; and the national guard. Since Vietnam, the "gummint" has made a decision to reduce the overall size of the regular (full-time) forces. While this would appear to be in accordance with the ideals of the Founding Fathers (who did not think the government should have any standing army at all), it is a sham.

Why? Because Washington still wants to have the "benefits" of a standing army, without having a standing army. Read the recruiting information from any branch of the services, and all you'll see is a lot of fluff about how they'll give you an education, they'll teach you valable skills, yada yada. They all bend over backwards to avoid any discussion of the fact that enlistees are soldiers, who may at any moment be sent to some unlikely place to get shot at.

There have actually been a small number of desertions and AWOLS by service personnel who felt they had been deceived by the military when they enlisted. And there are huge numbers of National Guard who feel that they should not be where they are. They are probably correct. The National Guard is supposed to be the third and lowest tier in the hierarchy. Except in time of war or emergency, the National Guard belongs to the individual states. It seemingly makes no sense at all that we have federalized National Guard units and sent them to Mesopotamia when there are active reserve units still in this country. The reason is that the reserve units aren't the type of units they need in Mesopotamia, so they reached out to the Guard units to take up the slack.

What this means is that (a) the regular services and active reserves are under strength for the purposes the gummint needs ("wants") them for, and (b) there's nobody here at home guarding home base.

No matter how one looks at it, it isn't right, and it isn't smart -- but it is political.

Fire when ready, Gridley.

Now, Eagle....
You know I have the utmost respect for you. That above all else, will never change. You've added a wealth of information to my base.....to say the least... (The vietnam rubber trees was the latest example)

But....
You could see in George Bush's face his unrehearsed, unbridled determination on Sept. 12..... SOMEBODY WAS GOING TO PAY.

There is no political agenda on this administrations docket....only preservation of all of us. You take the fight to the '"hood"....not wait for it to meet you on YOUR front step where YOUR family could be injured in the fight that will ensue.

I'm glad that there's someone in there to show the world that we're nor conquerers, but it's best not to @#$ with us when there's a remote chance that we might find out who was responsible....

I agree with you about the generalization....But I also think you're painting ALL politicians with a broad brush.

[Ronbo]

Originally posted by Jeff 98XJ WI
(SNIP) but I really feel for the National Guard and other folks that were forced into this conflict by our government. My brother in law is over there and I KNOW he doesn't want to be. Seems to me that national guard is supposed to guard the nation (USA), not travel all over the world doing the administrations dirty work.

No offense, but your Brother-in-Law was not paying attention very well when he volunteered to serve in the National Guard. He agreed to deploy on demand, as required. No one forced him into conflict.
I agree, a true domestic 'National' guard would be a good thing. Overseas deployment is the main reason I never continued service into the Guard. I did my time overseas, served my war, my time ended.
Any review of recent military activity outlines the mission of the Guard. They get tough duty too, just as active military personnel do.

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Ok, I can't speak directly for him, but it was MY understanding that National Guard is for our Nation and not generally shipped off to WAR. I understood and pretty much agree with Eagle's note above. I guess I simply have a problem with WAR. I don't like it and would never want to be sent to a different country to kill or be killed. I think the Leaders should get together and shoot it out. Let the common folk be. I know this is much too simplistic, and I don't have any answers, but I still think that the armed forces should be made up of volunteers that want to do the bidding of their politicians and policy makers. If one doesn't think what he is doing is right, he isn't allowed to simply say NO in the armed forces (as far as this generally uninformed idiot knows anyway.) I'll go back to lurk mode again. Jeff

[Jeep Biscuit]

Originally posted by Eagle
However, as the saying goes, I do fear my government, because it has become a government of professional politicians and wealthy insiders, rather than the government "of the people and by the people" that was intended by the framers of the Constitution.



Correct 100%

[Boatwrench]

Eagle,
It's a common mis-conception that the CG is not a military service, except in times of war. Congress authorizes the Coast Guard's transfer into the Department of the Navy in time of war. This has only occurred once, WWII. With the exception of the War for Independence, the Coast Guard has participated in every armed conflict this nation has been in and only during WWII was part of the Navy.

The Coast Guard is the smallest of the military services with just over 42K personnel including reservists. Coast Guardsmen are subject to the UCMJ and carry Armed Forces ID cards. The mistaken belief is because Coasties are under the Dept of Homeland Security and not DoD. The reason for this is because the Coast Guard's roots date back to 1790 with the formation of the Revenue Cutter Service under the Department of the Treasury to enforce smuggling laws. In able to enforce laws on the high seas without being an act of war the CG has been given broad law enforcement powers and that keeps us out of the DoD.

On March 19th, 2003 in the opening moments of the current gulf war, six armed Coast Guard boats (25' Boston Whalers) crewed by reservists navigated across the arabian gulf over seventy miles in the dark to support a US special forces operation, the capture of Iraqi offshore oil platforms. Within two weeks these same boats and crews escorted the first humanitarian aide shipment into the port of Um Kasar.

The unit responsible for the above was Port Security Unit 311 from Los Angeles, CA. They are home now but there are still Coasties serving in the Persian Gulf area alongside the other miltary services and I hope they all come home safely soon.

I just started my 3rd year on active recall, having been given four release dates since 9-17-2001. I understand the Guardsmen's frustrations being d*ck*d around also, and as a reservist and county employee I have more re-employment rights and job security protections than our nations National Guard members.

Back to the original posting message, may the families of all those lost in the attacks on 9-11 and defending Freedom find some kind of solace.

see you in Moab, drive safely from CT,
Tom

[sidriptide]

thanks for clearing that up tom.... if you didnt i was going to...
mike