limits of a stock XJ?

[docchaynes]

So, I managed to stuff the XJ in the woods over a 30" drop turning sharply uphill in the mud.

After an hour of jacking, shoving in concrete blocks and airing down, it is back in the driveway. Frankly, I went out looking for trouble, er, I mean, the 'limits', so I managed to get out without doubling my vocabulary.

First, I learned that M&S means Muddy (roads) & Snowy (roads). So I figure real off-road tires would have helped. I aired the 235's down from 35 to 25 psi. How low could I go?

Second, what do you call it when the corners are lofted and the open diffs won't connect? I jacked the downside and set blocks under the floating wheels to get a little traction, but: can you jack a stock XJ with Hi-Lifts? I drug a floor jack from the house out into the woods and made it happen. Nobody saw me, but it was bogus.

I am planning an Upcountry lift but that didn't seem to be the trouble. Maybe a sway bar disconnect would have given me a little more articulation. 2 inches? 3 inches? More?

I'm not looking for an 8" rock crawler but would like to retrieve firewood from the woods without embarassing myself. Hey, I got it out and didn't roll it over but I would prefer 'wheeling' to 'recovery.'

[2000XJSPORT]

Sway bar disconnects would be a great addition to your XJ. It will help not put so much stress on the front suspension at that sway bar connection. Also if you want you can lose the rear sway bar all together. The Up County package did not come with one anyway. I have the Up Country springs and I just love them.

[DaveD912]

I wouldn't jack up a stock XJ with a high lift. Nothing but a pinch seam on the side and the bumpers are pretty weak.

Removing the rear swaybar and getting discos for the front will help.

A better tire will make a world of a difference too.

[xjbubba]

And at minimum, a rear locker. No matter what tires you have on your Jeep, if yo lift one wheel, or drop it into a gully, your down to 2-wheel drive, as you have experienced.

[87manche]

locker and tiresw and it will be amazing. I recently upgraded from m+s all seasons to a real tire it's the difference in traction off road is outstanding.
A locker itself will also make a big difference. I wheeled Uwharrie on those very all seasons with a rear detroit and had no poblems.

[safn1949]

Just for fun,another trick is if you have a tire in the air and no locker,step on the brake to bias the torque,saved my bacon one day in my old ramcharger,had the left rear tire a foot off the ground and drove out:rof:

[chelms27]

You could air down to 10 if you wanted, I usually don't go lower than 15 with my 245 MTR's in rocks. I am at 3.5" of lift with no sway bars at all and like it better that way. I would get better tires for sure and then of course lockers would be a very good upgrade. The high lift....probably not unless you have some rock rails. Good luck man.

[Zoro]

I hig-lifted off the rockers once when I was stock, slid down this old dirt road about a half mile in the snow onto the rail-road tracks and got stuck, then I heard a train. Sacrificed my rocker panel but saved the truck.

If you have a trailer hitch you can go off of that, or you can go off the stock bumpers right where the bumper bolts are on the frame brackets...Do it all the time.

http://myspace-400.vo.llnwd.net/00627/00/44/627794400_l.jpg

The bottle jack was tried first

[docchaynes]

Thanks for all the input. I'd like to end up with a reliable fire roed rig with a little trail capability. My Upcountry springs came today ( they're Crown) and the hitch is ready to mount for a rear recovery point.

It bites having a '2-wheel drive' 4x4.

Seems like any kind of diffs would be an expensive upgrade(?)

[old_man]

A lunch box type locker can be had for around $200.

[Zoro]

Thanks for all the input. I'd like to end up with a reliable fire roed rig with a little trail capability. My Upcountry springs came today ( they're Crown) and the hitch is ready to mount for a rear recovery point.

It bites having a '2-wheel drive' 4x4.

Seems like any kind of diffs would be an expensive upgrade(?)

Get some Aussie lockers, $229 each they work out great

[AlohaBra]

http://http://www.dua1.com/AdminFiles/Jeep/97/PA230020.JPGhttp://www.dua1.com/AdminFiles/Jeep/97/PA230020.JPG

2" Lift...Skid plate at Dana 30 and TC...Front hitch recovery...tow hook in back...Goodyears...(extra set of used Mud Terrains)..

http://http://www.dua1.com/AdminFiles/Jeep/97/PA230020.JPGFront sway bar disconnected...Rear sway bar removed. OH yeah...I use a scissors jack and a four by four....but I really don't like mud.

Cost: $600 plus tires

[BrettM]

a locker makes an amazing difference. if you have a D35 in back I wouldn't lock it, put a lunchbox locker in the front instead. I jacked many times from my stock XJ bumpers with a high-lift, I just alway did it right under the bumper bracket, and it did mildly deform the bottom side of the bumper.

[badron]

I would be careful about airing down much then putting a big load of wood in her. Then try and do 65 before Ping up.
Tires suited for the job? Always.
This is locker county around here and for good reason. But a lot of people don't like the 35 and locker combo or the 35 in general. Weak axles. (IMO)Depending on your tire size, and how demanding you are on your rig has a lot to do with it holding up or not. Also (IMO)
Note: There is a secret cub called "I love my 35 and locker" out there but few will admit to belonging to it or else the big axles beat them up and take there lunch money.
Remove the rear anti? It's a given around here.
Install front Quick discon? There cheep and helpful. You will very seldom see that combo in the world of off road stuff. Go for it.
LUCK

[docchaynes]

Looks like there are some good simple options to get a little more trail performance without getting in too deep and re-engineering the whole vehicle.

I'll have to search on lockers and study up. I'm not familiar with 'lunchbox' locker. Doing the big axles must be what I thought would get into big $$.

Also, I want to be careful about losing drivability.There are times we'll take Scouts 5 hours away to the white water rivers in the mountains. You don't think I'd miss that rear sway bar with a full load and passengers?

[stewie]

heres my recomendations. tires first. you will be amazed with how much better traction you can get with a good set of tires. if your on a budget like i was, look for a good set of used AT's at local tire shops. i got a set of 4 32" goodyear MT/R's for $35 a piece. the deals are out there, you just have to be patient.

second recomendation is sway bars. i would remove the rear (i was reluctant at first but now i see no difference in on road preformance even loaded and/or pulling a small trailer) and get a set of disconects for the front. i use the ones from JKS and i love the ease of use. it will allow the tires to remain on the ground longer and give you more traction by avoiding a wheelstand.

locker. well thats when things get a little more complicated. if your not familiar with gears, i would get someone to help you. i also would not lock a Dana 35 rear axle. you asked what a "lunchbox locker" was? well its an automatic locker. it relies upon torque from the front drive shaft to lock axle shafts together. the other types of lockers are selectable. you can activate them at will. usualy by compressed air, or electric switch. the lunchbox or auto locker is usualy the cheapest and more than sufficient for a stock rig. i have an Aussie Locker in the front of mine and it took me though stuff in moab that i didnt think i could get through.

i know lockers can be a bit $$ though and a bit intimidating, so in the meantime use the brake advice posted above. if you use both feet-brake and gas at the same time- you even out the resistance on both wheels. with an open diff, power follows the path of least resistance. as you have experienced, the wheel in the air spins and the one with traction dont. the brake method got me though for 8 months without needing to be strapped out of a situation.

a front tow point is also another thing to consider.

sorry for the long post

hth
stewie

[ZacSquatch]

Both my jeeps have no rear sway bars, I drive through the appalachians to and from Western Carolina full loaded, lots of curves and good stuff, never had a problem, front is all you need

[cshontz]

At the very least, disconnect your front swaybar when on the trail. This single action will make your stock Cherokee 100x more capable and comfortable - and its free. It is common practice to do so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDPzbPwP6L8

[docchaynes]

Clicking on that "Motor World" link gave me a window in German that declared, "You've been hacked!"

[docchaynes]

Sure would like to find a stock gas tank skid before my spring bushings come in.

Any one have one they want to get out of the garage?

[KarlVP]

Here is some advice that you wont hear from anyone.

Invest some money in a front winch bumper. (doesn't have to be fancy) and a winch.

Why spend all sorts of money altering your vehicle and making it a pain to work on and maintain, when all you want is a rig you can go out and get some wood with?

I'm sure the dealership could put a winch on it for about $1000.

People who reccomend lifts and tires and lockers right off the bat make me angry. Get a winch. You could winch a honda civic through the woods with a trunk full of firewood ffs.

[docchaynes]

we use 12 psi on our dirt bikes. 25 didn't seem to make a whole lot of difference from the 35 street pressures.

No doubt a winch would have saved me an hour in the woods but I thought that would require about a grand in winch and 300-500 for the bumper?

Once I had the leaning hunk jacked a winch would have stabilized the rig so I didn't wake up in a cold sweat the next morning at 4am seeing an XJ hovering precariously over me . . .

[Boatwrench]

The photo in the avatar is my 00XJ bone stock (except for skids) going down wipeout hill in Moab. Last spring Paul ran his stock XJ right up Top of The World, no problem.

The only limit is what you are willing to try and have the personal ability to do.

Hi-Lift makes an adapter for grabbing bumpers. I haven't used it (yet).

Tom

[Zoro]

Hi-Lift makes an adapter for grabbing bumpers. I haven't used it (yet).

Tom
The strongest parts of the bumper are where it bolts on.

Ever since I've put my lift in I've run some trails I ran nearly bone stock and I always ask myself one thing...HOW? The XJ is very capable but it is like any tool, you gotta know how to use it right.

[docchaynes]

Zoro,

How much lift did you go?

Care to share any insights on putting the stock XJ to task?

[chelms27]

I have a 97 with open diffs, 30'" tires, 2" OME lift(because it rides nice and I get 20 MPG), and no skids. I have made it through some pretty crazy stuff(I usually run with guys who have 33's, lockers, 5+inches of lift, and full skids). If you know how to drive and choose your lines properly you dont need a whole lot to get where you want to go.

[boise49ers]

Here is some advice that you wont hear from anyone.

Invest some money in a front winch bumper. (doesn't have to be fancy) and a winch.

Why spend all sorts of money altering your vehicle and making it a pain to work on and maintain, when all you want is a rig you can go out and get some wood with?

I'm sure the dealership could put a winch on it for about $1000.

People who reccomend lifts and tires and lockers right off the bat make me angry. Get a winch. You could winch a honda civic through the woods with a trunk full of firewood ffs.

Well if you run a locker you know why they recommend it and if you don't then you don't even know the difference. It makes all the difference in the world. I have had a winch for 8 years and have only used it to pull out other people. Why ? Because I have did all the things the others have recommended and I don't get stuck. If you think that I don't do hard trails take a look at the vids on my website and you'll see that is basically all I do.
So get over your anger and let people try and help the guy. It is how we learn to build them. It sounds like that is what he wants to do. Once you start it doesn't stop usually.

[8Mud]

A couple of things I didn't hear. You can actually use the parking brake to bias your rear wheels some. Power goes to the wheel with the least resistance, pull the parking brake and goose it, power is biased to both rear wheels. I have a limited slip in my 35 and still use the parking brake on occasion. You can also work the brake pedal some and do just about the same thing for the fronts. I prefer a limited slip, lockers do strange things on ice and snow around curves and corners.
I keep a 30 yard coil of steel cable, with clamped loops in likely places. A twenty foot length of chain, with appropriate bolts and *washers*, tree padding. I've used my high jack in place of a winch on many occasions. I've jack winched my trailor full of wood, through some really deep mud getting the load back out of the forest. I probably should get a hitch winch.
The coil of cable fits nicely behind the spare (if your carefull not to kink it). I use 5/8" cable, way heavier than necessary.
Working with chains and cables isn't smart for every occurance. But works well to get you through moderate stucks. You have to know when to stop and go find a tractor or something, before things get ugly. A buddy once neglected to put the washers on the bolt, when looping my chain, it tried to go through the windshield when the bolt head slipped through the chain loop.
Heavy straps would probably be a better solution, if you can find some large and long enough.
I rarely get stuck, I've been mudding for a long time, technique and good judgement is 90% of it. Flotation usually doesn't help much in the mud. Inertia (don't stop) and a tire with good cleats (if you can find the bottom) are much more helpfull. In many instances a skinny tire actually works better.

[docchaynes]

Once you start it doesn't stop usually.

ooh, I can this coming for sure. My list has already doubled while I try to keep this mild and have a DEFINATE end point.

'course, that's dreamin', I know.

Thanks to everyone for sharing their insights and experience. With your help I can show up at my first few events without being totally unprepard or dangerous . . .

[KarlVP]

Well if you run a locker you know why they recommend it and if you don't then you don't even know the difference. It makes all the difference in the world. I have had a winch for 8 years and have only used it to pull out other people. Why ? Because I have did all the things the others have recommended and I don't get stuck. If you think that I don't do hard trails take a look at the vids on my website and you'll see that is basically all I do.
So get over your anger and let people try and help the guy. It is how we learn to build them. It sounds like that is what he wants to do. Once you start it doesn't stop usually.


I am trying to help him. I understand that on your wheeling trips you stick to the easy lines and help other guys out. That is okay with me.

I totally disagree with adding traction enhancement to a vehicle first. You should add reliable recoverey gear first. It is the SAFE thing to do.

Why don't people see this? A locker will just get you into more trouble, where a winch saves the day. Lockers don't make you unstoppable. Winches do.

[boise49ers]

I am trying to help him. I understand that on your wheeling trips you stick to the easy lines and help other guys out. That is okay with me.
That line didn't work I'm not bitin !
:gag:

[docchaynes]

The very first thing I've decided to do is add reliable recovery points so you guys can pull me out withouy twisting the flimsey thing in half.

Next , fresh ( Upcountry ) springs, shocks, loose the rear sway bar.

Now, I've run into the 'while it's apart might as well do . . .'

SO, I'm looking at the 2" budget lift from Rocky Road. From what I read this is a +1 1/2" shackle with 1/2" "mini-block, coil spacers and extensions for the shocks. That and discos for the front sway bar. Maybe skids, especially the gastank skid as it bolts up to the hitch I'm using for a rear recovery point.

A radiator and OEM fan clutch will probably have to come before the tires/wheels and locker.

Finally, the frontbumper/winch

Then the Garvin rack, some lights . . . oh, no, I've bled over into a 'modified ' thread on an OEM forum.

Do you guys think the 2" spring lift will sack the new leafs and give me axle wrap on the moderate trails I'm planning for?

[markw]

Throw at least 1 locker into it. If it's a D35, toss a lockrite style in it until you upgrade. :) The're 2-300 and I'd bet while you were digging yourself out you would've given a couple hundred to have not been stuck.

On the "easy" run at Johnson Valley for the Naxja guys a couple weeks ago, the locked guys were were spending quite a bit of time watching the non-locked guys try to get over obstacles they just drove over. Winches were broken out a few times to pull people through. Whatever you do don't invest too much into the D35 though, it's a turd and polishing it will still leave you with a turd. :) At the most I'd consider a lockrite for one with the theory that you could sell the whole axle and lockrite to recover at least some of the cost of the lockrite.

Oh, yeah, recovery points, front tow hooks from Custom 4x4 or factory, and a rear factory hitch. Both obtainable from a junkyard, got mine for $50 total for both.

Again, at least 1 Locker. It'll be cheaper than a winch, especially a lunchbox style which just replaces the spider gears in your stock carrier.

Oh, get some JKS front disconnects, your front swaybar limits your droop.

[Speed_racer]

Also, I want to be careful about losing drivability.There are times we'll take Scouts 5 hours away to the white water rivers in the mountains. You don't think I'd miss that rear sway bar with a full load and passengers?

I only ever saw benefits from no rear sway bar.

I currently have none on my xj, and take 3-4 hour trips with it regularly. Feels very safe, and im at 3" of lift.

I would get a 31" BFG AT OR MT, a locker (front or rear), make some home made dsicos for the front, lose the rear sway bar, and maybe buy the adapter to hook the high lift to your rim, it uses a strap design to hook into your rim, that way you can jack up just the tire, stuff w/e u need under it, and go from there.

a 2 wheel drive 4x4 xj? Well, thats what stock is all aabout!! haha

[kf_chris]

can you get full suspension travel with the 31's? I'm thinkin 30x9.5 should tuck a lot better, that's what I'm going on with our street Jeep.

[Zoro]

can you get full suspension travel with the 31's? I'm thinkin 30x9.5 should tuck a lot better, that's what I'm going on with our street Jeep.

If you run factory rims then yes. You can do it stock but there will be rubbing.

This is a buddy of mine running 31x10.5's on rims with a tad more offset than factory with no lift and sway bars in:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/spf150/100_4751.jpg?t=1164947451

[PDeeXJ]

Learn to drive first stock.

Upgrade / compensate accordingly.

[docchaynes]

Learn to drive first stock.

Upgrade / compensate accordingly.

Hey, now that is good advice.

Although, again, I'd like to develop some capability and competence before showing up on the trail with others.

[Zoro]

Hey, now that is good advice.

Although, again, I'd like to develop some capability and competence before showing up on the trail with others.

The only way to learn is by doing, once you know how your vehicle wheels stock and how to get out of certain situations with a stock rig it will make you that much more of a better wheeler. It sounds kinda funny at first but in time you'll see what I mean.

[boise49ers]

The only way to learn is by doing, once you know how your vehicle wheels stock and how to get out of certain situations with a stock rig it will make you that much more of a better wheeler. It sounds kinda funny at first but in time you'll see what I mean.
Yeah he has that right. The one thing I have learned above all else is that the skinny pedal can cause more problems then it can help. It is hard to get used to
when your first instinct when you can't get over something is to mash down on the gas. This alot of the time ends up causing breakage and getting you in a worse pickle then you started out in. Just a little beginner advise. Also just remember all of the guys on the trail were rookies at one time.
Have fun is the main thing
:laugh3: