Diesel Pusher

Hi Guys,

I haven't been on here much since NWFest because I'm busily getting ready for the next one. We're looking to buy an older diesel pusher so I can change diapers, haul beer and Jeeps in style. I seriously want to bring the Fam to these events but I'm not bring a Baby and a 6 month old to camp in a tent, it just doesn't sound like a good time. We're in the market for an older non-slide diesel pusher and we're completely sold on the old Beaver Marquis 1987-1992 because they fall in our price range and they are VERY well built. I'm intersted in models with the CAT 3208 or 3116.

There's quite a few for sale in Washington, Oregon, and Idaho and we couldn't be more excited about getting a motorhome. I would appreciate any advice you guys have regarding purchasing an older motorhome. Keep in mind I grew up RV-ing with my parents so I'm not a complete newb. I would however appreciate input on how to negotiate. Honestly I tend to fall in love with things and this negatively impacts my negotiating habits. Seriously, If I find a good rig I seem to forget it's a buyers market and this negatively impacts my negotiating skills. We're going to look at a 87 Beaver this weekend and I could use some advice. I'm an ex aircraft mechanic so I have excellent inspection and systems skills so I can find tons of defects with the motorhomes we have recently been evaluating. How do I effectively use these defects as negotiating points? How do I talk someone down?
This is not a sob story but my dad was an excellent negotiator, therefore he seemed to do all the negotiating for our family. Needless to say he died when I was 18 (I'm 30 now) and before I had a chance to learn his art. I'm not completely lost but I could use some advice.

My negotiating strategy? They're starting high. I start with a ridiculous low-ball offer.... and end up somewhere in the middle.

I've found that the most powerful negotiating tool you have is education, indifference and willingness to walk away from the deal. Whether you walk away for 5 minutes, 5 days, 5 weeks or 5 months, it sends a clear message that you know what the item is worth to you, there will be something better for less if you are patient, and you aren't emotionally attached to the item. Once you start to show enthusiasm for the item, you're in trouble. Focus on what is wrong with the item, how it barely fits your needs and how much risk you are taking. Try to get them to name a price 1st and if it's outrageous let them know you think so. When you walk away from the deal, leave them your contact information so they can call you back when they are ready to deal.

All of that said, I'm not that good at following my own advice if it's something that's not really common and I find what I want. I also don't spend a lot of time negotiating on small ticket items. If the price is fair, I pay it, if not, I don't even waste my time.

With one car, the salesman talked so much BS, that when he gave me the price of the trade-in, and the new car...

I asked him, "That is your best offer?"
I then laughed and walked out.

In the past I have heard that Asians get lower prices on cars than everyone else, because...
If the dealership does not give them a low enough price the first time, they will walk and not come back.

One of the last cars I purchased...
I told him "I just don't need this. It's only a toy.", until they brought it down to my price. I was driving my wife and a friend that went along nuts. They couldn't believe held out for so long.

Good luck
Jason

Biggest thing i recommend is know what your willing to spend and like said before, be willing to walk away. i walked out four times when i bought my dune hauler and they would wait a week and not hear from me. then they would call and i would swing in and walk out when it wasn't to my liking. they came down 12k. doesn't always work out but i didn't spend more than i wanted to.

I am also in the market for a motor home of about the same vintage. What motor is in it? I was looking at the old pushers but for the money, lack of fuel mileage and lack of power of modern day diesels I have been looking at gassers.

I have never worked on one. But was told by my wifes uncle that owns a 92 Safari not to get one with a 8.2l Detroit. He claims he got 8mpg from here to Florida and back bobtail. He also claims they seem to have a lot of problems.

Dave

Diesel pushers are designed to run for millions of miles pushing and towing huge loads and get VERY decent gas milage considering what they are capable of. A gasser will get pathetic milage and then gets MUCH worse when you pull a trailer.

When I get another motorhome it also will be a Diesel pusher of similar vintage to the Monaco's you are talking about. Country Coach wouldn't be bad to consider on your list also. Both typically run CAT Diesels which are great engines. Some of there smaller units may have Cummins in also.

Negotiating. This is a full semester class!!
1. Know what the item is worth to you (with research and understanding).
2. Know what it is worth at current market (KBB, other comperable units, etc)
3. Know what is wrong with it, what it would cost to fix (retail) and come to a compromise on a price that is fair based on how they advertised the item. Consider having a professional buyers inspection done ($100) and then you can use the 3rd party to negotiate a lower price than you feel comfortable with "the mechanic said it needed this and it will cost X and It isn't worth more than this". This may make you feel more comfortable making a lower offer.
4. The worst anyone can do is say NO and provide a counter offer. If it is a buyers market you should be able to provide a "low ball offer" that is reasonable and be willing to walk away to think about it.
5. ALWAYS come prepared with cash in hand, financing, etc so that it is easier for the seller. There is significant value to a seller when it is easy to work with a buyer. I would often give something away when they come and pick the item up on my terms and are there on time, than sell something for $50 and have 3 no shows or who are late.

Just a few basics.
Michael

2xtreme said:

Negotiating. This is a full semester class!!
1. Know what the item is worth to you (with research and understanding).
2. Know what it is worth at current market (KBB, other comperable units, etc)
3. Know what is wrong with it, what it would cost to fix (retail) and come to a compromise on a price that is fair based on how they advertised the item. Consider having a professional buyers inspection done ($100) and then you can use the 3rd party to negotiate a lower price than you feel comfortable with "the mechanic said it needed this and it will cost X and It isn't worth more than this". This may make you feel more comfortable making a lower offer.
4. The worst anyone can do is say NO and provide a counter offer. If it is a buyers market you should be able to provide a "low ball offer" that is reasonable and be willing to walk away to think about it.
5. ALWAYS come prepared with cash in hand, financing, etc so that it is easier for the seller. There is significant value to a seller when it is easy to work with a buyer. I would often give something away when they come and pick the item up on my terms and are there on time, than sell something for $50 and have 3 no shows or who are late.

Just a few basics.
Michael

Click to expand...

Very well Said..

I still suck at Low balling tho. I always feel as if i am going to Insult them, So i offer to much and end up walking away wondering how much lower i could of gone:shiver:

Thanks a lot for the input guys. All this discussion is getting me in a better negotiating mind-set and I really appreciate it. So far the low-balling seems to be working, although its not really low-balling. My offers are educated and mostly based on the NADA values. Basically I tell them I am pre-qualified (I am) and I'm ready to buy now if we can start negotiations within the NADA specified values which are used by my lender.

I've done my research like 2xtreme and cwstnsko mentioned. Via the internet I have made several out of state offers approximately 40-60% of the asking price based on NADA values, out of 5 offers three have come back. One guy was asking 39,900, I offered 15k and he came back at 21,500. Another started at 29K, I offered 15k and he came back at 20k. All these offers are obviously contingent upon my inpection and an engine evaluation by CAT. CAT charges $120 for a full evaluation including oil analysis. It seems $120 is a small price to pay; according to CAT it costs 20k to replace some of these diesel pusher motors because oftentimes the coach is built around the motor.

Were going looking again this weekend so Ill let you know how it goes. Thanks again for all the valuable input.

1 other thing I didn't think about originally to mention.

About 1989? the width of axles used on many motohomes changed and got significantly wider. Many of these upper end motorhomes were probably not affected by this change because I believe most of these already had the wider axles, but it is a significant thing to keep in mind if any of them are affected, the driving performance of the newer/wider axles is pretty significant.

Michael

WWW.skoolie.net
I bought an international dt466 with an alison for under 2k.......and it came with a school bus!
They are cheap, fun to build, and if I had a family in tow, safety would be my priority. Motorhomes are plastic death coffins. I have never seen a motor home with tounge and grove cedar floor to ceiling and a wood stove. My bus on the other hand, does. Not to mention it doesn't have the stain of bein
g lived in by previous occupants. Some things, suffice it to say, can't be washed out.

2xtreme said:

1 other thing I didn't think about originally to mention.

About 1989? the width of axles used on many motohomes changed and got significantly wider. Many of these upper end motorhomes were probably not affected by this change because I believe most of these already had the wider axles, but it is a significant thing to keep in mind if any of them are affected, the driving performance of the newer/wider axles is pretty significant.

Michael

Click to expand...

Really, I'm intrigued. Is it apparent from the outside of the coach? I have seen some old coaches where the axle is visibly narrow and very unattractive from a structural point of view (through the eyes of an engineer).

SUA SPONTE said:

WWW.skoolie.net
I bought an international dt466 with an alison for under 2k.......and it came with a school bus!
They are cheap, fun to build, and if I had a family in tow, safety would be my priority. Motorhomes are plastic death coffins. I have never seen a motor home with tounge and grove cedar floor to ceiling and a wood stove. My bus on the other hand, does. Not to mention it doesn't have the stain of bein
g lived in by previous occupants. Some things, suffice it to say, can't be washed out.

Click to expand...

I agree with you and considered going this route: http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/diesel/1973-Mci-Bus-16777.htm. My wife then asked me if I also liked being single :sure:.

Sideshow said:

Really, I'm intrigued. Is it apparent from the outside of the coach? I have seen some old coaches where the axle is visibly narrow and very unattractive from a structural point of view (through the eyes of an engineer).

Click to expand...

Yes, Older motorhomes there seems to be a large gap between the outside of the body skin and the outside of the wheel (wheels/tires are rather inset in the wheel well). As I said, I believe it was about 1989 this change happened, however, it might have only been lower end (gas or Diesel pullers) that this was affected on. Most bus or custom coaches like you are talking about might have already had the wider axles to start with?

Michael

records, be shure to ask when the last "seal tec" was done. this will be the only way to really be shure that the unit is not leaking watter.

Bronze.

2xtreme said:

Yes, Older motorhomes there seems to be a large gap between the outside of the body skin and the outside of the wheel (wheels/tires are rather inset in the wheel well). As I said, I believe it was about 1989 this change happened, however, it might have only been lower end (gas or Diesel pullers) that this was affected on. Most bus or custom coaches like you are talking about might have already had the wider axles to start with?

Michael

Click to expand...

I never really noticed but see what your talking about now. My buddy just got a late 80's Winnebago and after I reading this I can really see it now.

About me looking at gas over diesels is because my next motor home is only going to be a stepping stone to what I really want. If I get a diesel I am going to have to get an older late 80's. If I get a gas I can get a newer one that is fuel injected and will get close to the mileage as the older diesel. Plus the cost of the motor home will be cheaper so I can spend a little more on fuel. The way I see it, It will work out about the same at the end. My plan it to retire with a nice Cummins ISM 500 powered motor home with a trailer toad and mobile shop to house my jeeps.

Dave

Sideshow said:

Really, I'm intrigued. Is it apparent from the outside of the coach? I have seen some old coaches where the axle is visibly narrow and very unattractive from a structural point of view (through the eyes of an engineer).



I agree with you and considered going this route: http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/diesel/1973-Mci-Bus-16777.htm. My wife then asked me if I also liked being single :sure:.

Click to expand...

Have you bought one yet? post up pics.

Dave

99Redxjbuilder said:

Have you bought one yet? post up pics.

Dave

Click to expand...

This may be too soon as I haven't actually purchased it yet but I'm heading South to buy this one on Saturday, if it checks out. Its a 1988 36ft Beaver Marquis with a 250hp 3208 CAT. I had the engine checked out by CAT in Eugene and it passed with flying colors. The only unknown is the tranny but Ill check it out as best I can on Saturday. From what I've read the four speed Allison's are fairly bulletproof with good maintenance. The engine has been maintained so I hope the transmission is similar.

http://s341.photobucket.com/albums/o399/richandjenmoore/Beaver Marquis/?albumview=slideshow

It's a big thing, bigger than I ever thought I would want. Although what I have found is you need to buy a class A workhorse chassis, diesel pusher, or a Super C if you intend on hauling anything over 5K lbs legally.

Sideshow said:

This may be too soon as I haven't actually purchased it yet but I'm heading South to buy this one on Saturday, if it checks out. Its a 1988 36ft Beaver Marquis with a 250hp 3208 CAT. I had the engine checked out by CAT in Eugene and it passed with flying colors. The only unknown is the tranny but Ill check it out as best I can on Saturday. From what I've read the four speed Allison's are fairly bulletproof with good maintenance. The engine has been maintained so I hope the transmission is similar.

http://s341.photobucket.com/albums/o399/richandjenmoore/Beaver Marquis/?albumview=slideshow

It's a big thing, bigger than I ever thought I would want. Although what I have found is you need to buy a class A workhorse chassis, diesel pusher, or a Super C if you intend on hauling anything over 5K lbs legally.

Click to expand...

Yep them transmissions are about bullet proof. I have had to replace a few in yard trucks but that was from abuse. Towing 60.000lb trailers and slamming from forward to reverse 24 hours a day. I wouldn't much worry about it just check the fluid do the old smell test should smell kinda sweet not burned. They are real easy to service to. The only other issue are leaks but you can get them out of motor homes pretty easy to replace a front pump seal. I don't know much about the 3208 though. I have been told they are very good motors buy the older techs I use to work with, Most cat's are good motors anyway.

Also never thought about legality of towing with a motor home. That is food for thought now. Wonder how that works with a trailer toad? I may have to check into this. Hear is a link to the toad I talk about. www.trailertoad.com

Dave

99Redxjbuilder said:

Yep them transmissions are about bullet proof. I have had to replace a few in yard trucks but that was from abuse. Towing 60.000lb trailers and slamming from forward to reverse 24 hours a day. I wouldn't much worry about it just check the fluid do the old smell test should smell kinda sweet not burned. They are real easy to service to. The only other issue are leaks but you can get them out of motor homes pretty easy to replace a front pump seal. I don't know much about the 3208 though. I have been told they are very good motors buy the older techs I use to work with, Most cat's are good motors anyway.

Also never thought about legality of towing with a motor home. That is food for thought now. Wonder how that works with a trailer toad? I may have to check into this. Hear is a link to the toad I talk about. www.trailertoad.com

Dave

Click to expand...

That's good to know these are easy to work on. The RV shop rate is higher than an Aviation repair shop rate so I will be fixing everything I can. Although I have already been told not to even try removing one of the 22.5 wheels by myself.

From what CAT said the 3208 is the old mechanical engine found in most of the older dozers and medium duty construction equipment.

Here it is in the driveway with the back of the XJ in sight for reference:


And this is why I chose to look at the 1986-93 Beaver models exclusively:

It's wired like an airplane with circuit breakers and cannon plugs. The only fuses I can find are associated with afterthoughts like the radios, CB and brake controller. I went into buying an RV knowing that generally they are all poorly made maintenance nightmares and this old Beaver is no exception. From what I can tell this is the highest quality RV I have ever seen as compared to the high end stuff like Prevost, Marathon, and Newmar, purely because of the wiring and aluminum coach structure and solid wood cabinets. I got a full set of service manuals with the coach which include wiring diagrams and individually labeled wires and cannon plug pin locations. As far as RV's go, in my opinion this one is a joy to work on. I can run air-tools too :yelclap:

Looks good! If you really want to take the wheels off. You just need to buy a 3/4 drive impact wrench and 1/2 hose with fittings to install on that tank. Lug nuts go back on at 450 to 500 ft lbs. You must be an aviation tech?

Dave