Border Patrol Agents Vote: - NO CONFIDENCE

[joe_peters]

Apparently even the unionized Border Patrol Agents have gotten fed up with JOHN MORTON, ICE Director for NON-Enforcement, failure to do his job!

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/immigration-enforcement-union-took-a-no-confidence-vote-in-its-leadership-99976699.html

[NW-ZJ-SCOTT]

I was confused. I read that as "Border patrol against vote NO CONFIDENCE"

[joe_peters]

I was confused. I read that as "Border patrol against vote NO CONFIDENCE"

LOL! Typing faster than my brain--Border Patrol Agents Vote NO CONFIDENCE.

[kastein]

copied to my facebook... this info needs to be further spread

[Boatwrench]

Does that title look better? Sometimes being a mod has perks.

[joe_peters]

Does that title look better? Sometimes being a mod has perks.

Thanks!

[tbburg]

The majority of ICE ERO Officers are prohibited from making street arrests or enforcing United States immigration laws outside of the institutional (jail) setting.Ah, so that's why the Feds are so steamed at Arizona.

[WB9YZU]

People will howl loudly if the Police are able to just walk up and ask for your ID, and detain you if you don't have it. It smacks of Nazism. There were certain freedoms our Fathers, Uncles, Friends and Neighbors fought for, one of them is undue search and seizure, right down to the personal level.

But does that apply to non-citizens? And how do you tell the difference between a citizen and a non-citizen?

Given that, even at the local level, there is a lot of pressure being brought to turn a blind eye to illegal immigration.

A few months ago, the Madison City Council wrote up and signed a recommendation to the Dane County Sheriff to have his department stop sending any info to ICE. He stood by his policy. Milwaukee's Sheriff came under the same scrutiny, and his response was the same.

IMO, if you are here on a visa, or a Green card, or simply here illegally; if you break the law, we don't need you here filling up our jails.

Ron

[old_man]

People will howl loudly if the Police are able to just walk up and ask for your ID, and detain you if you don't have it. It smacks of Nazism.

If you would bother to read the law, it clearly states that you have to have been stopped with probable cause for some violation of the law. It states it many times thoughout the legislation. Right now, if you violate the law and can't show identification, they have the right to detain you anyway until they can prove who you are.

[WB9YZU]

Tom, it would be better if you assume that I have read the law, understand it, and am keeping fairly current on the subject.

Ron

[joe_peters]

Tom, it would be better if you assume that I have read the law, understand it, and am keeping fairly current on the subject.

Ron

And what happens when we assume? Makes an A** out of U and ME!

Federal law requires that non-citizens traveling within the borders of the United States of America carry their papers with them at ALL TIMES. That includes legal permanent residents, foreign students, tourists. If you are stopped in AZ for a legal reason, and you can't speak English clearly, or speak English with a foreign accent--including Canadians--then I don't have a problem with the LEO asking about their immigration status.

You can't name one country, other than the U.S., where even the citizens wander all over the place without carrying identification. No, I don't want to HAVE to carry my I.D., even though 90+ percent of the time I do anyway, but LEGAL immigrants living in this country had better get used to it, and ILLEGALS had better get used to the idea of going home.

[XJ=Fun]

Funny how everyone tends to interpret the law accordingly to their own personal beliefs.LoL you guys are funny. subscribed.

[WB9YZU]

And now we get down to it Joe.

Yes, Aliens are supposed to carry their papers. No one else is required to do so. That is the policy here. And aside from not speaking English well, there is no outward appearance that one person is a citizen and one is not.

The Article was NOT about AZ law or LEOs, it was about ICE Policy, and ICE Officers.

Their policy is NOT to do "Street Arrests". Well what IS a "street arrest" anyway? Isn't that where they look for Visa jumpers and Illegal Immigrants? How do they find them? Mind you. Jumping a Visa or coming to this country undocumented is a "crime" only in that if caught we send you back home.

So how do you find someone who is NOT in the system, and who has not been arrested by local law enforcement?

Well, you can't without going around and asking people for their papers.
People would cry "Civil Liberties" from the tallest buildings/

[XJ=Fun]

And now we get down to it Joe.

Yes, Aliens are supposed to carry their papers. No one else is required to do so. That is the policy here. And aside from not speaking English well, there is no outward appearance that one person is a citizen and one is not.

The Article was NOT about AZ law or LEOs, it was about ICE Policy, and ICE Officers.

Their policy is NOT to do "Street Arrests". Well what IS a "street arrest" anyway? Isn't that where they look for Visa jumpers and Illegal Immigrants? How do they find them? Mind you. Jumping a Visa or coming to this country undocumented is a "crime" only in that if caught we send you back home.

So how do you find someone who is NOT in the system, and who has not been arrested by local law enforcement?

Well, you can't without going around and asking people for their papers.
People would cry "Civil Liberties" from the tallest buildings/

Agreed 100%

[XJEEPER]

And now we get down to it Joe.

Yes, Aliens are supposed to carry their papers. No one else is required to do so. That is the policy here. And aside from not speaking English well, there is no outward appearance that one person is a citizen and one is not.

The Article was NOT about AZ law or LEOs, it was about ICE Policy, and ICE Officers.

Their policy is NOT to do "Street Arrests". Well what IS a "street arrest" anyway? Isn't that where they look for Visa jumpers and Illegal Immigrants? How do they find them? Mind you. Jumping a Visa or coming to this country undocumented is a "crime" only in that if caught we send you back home.

So how do you find someone who is NOT in the system, and who has not been arrested by local law enforcement?

Well, you can't without going around and asking people for their papers.
People would cry "Civil Liberties" from the tallest buildings/

Oh NO! Not the cry of "Civil Liberties"!!!! What's next, the PC Waahmbulence?

Don't trample the sovereignty of my county with your desire for Political Correctness.

Overstaying ones Visa or entering the country illegally is a crime. In spite of Obama's bullcrap statement:

“If you are a Hispanic-American in Arizona, your great-grandparents may have been there before Arizona was even a state. But now suddenly, if you don’t have your papers and you took your kid out to get ice cream, you’re gonna be harassed. That’s something that could potentially happen. That’s not the right way to go.”

Got any facts to back this up?? Incidents of detaining US citizens purely based on color or assumed ethenicity??


Oh, the bitter-sweet irony.......

CENTENNIAL, Colo. — An illegal immigrant was convicted Tuesday in a crash that killed three people, including a 3-year-old boy inside an ice cream shop. Jurors found Francis Hernandez, 25, of Guatemala guilty of vehicular homicide and other charges.”

The case sparked calls for immigration reform after Hernandez avoided deportation despite a dozen prior arrests in Colorado. Authorities said he used 12 aliases and two dates of birth to slip under the radar of immigration officials.

Now, for a step in the right direction.....seems so simple too. http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/one-more-step-to-a-national-id-or-protecting-our-borders/question-1122477/

[NW-ZJ-SCOTT]

You can't name one country, other than the U.S., where even the citizens wander all over the place without carrying identification. No, I don't want to HAVE to carry my I.D., even though 90+ percent of the time I do anyway, but LEGAL immigrants living in this country had better get used to it, and ILLEGALS had better get used to the idea of going home.
:worship:

[Darky]

And now we get down to it Joe.

Yes, Aliens are supposed to carry their papers. No one else is required to do so. That is the policy here. And aside from not speaking English well, there is no outward appearance that one person is a citizen and one is not.

The Article was NOT about AZ law or LEOs, it was about ICE Policy, and ICE Officers.

Their policy is NOT to do "Street Arrests". Well what IS a "street arrest" anyway? Isn't that where they look for Visa jumpers and Illegal Immigrants? How do they find them? Mind you. Jumping a Visa or coming to this country undocumented is a "crime" only in that if caught we send you back home.

So how do you find someone who is NOT in the system, and who has not been arrested by local law enforcement?

Well, you can't without going around and asking people for their papers.
People would cry "Civil Liberties" from the tallest buildings/
If the person hasn't been arrested, it would appear that ICE has no means of checking them. So be it. No one is trying to let police or ICE start stopping people on the streets asking for ID. The only time the person gets checked is when they either, a) have committed another crime and been locked up, or b) under the new laws being proposed and enacted by states, when the person has already been detained for a different reason. I'm not seeing where there's a problem.
Tom, it would be better if you assume that I have read the law, understand it, and am keeping fairly current on the subject.

Oh, and Ron, being in this country illegally is a crime whether or not you get caught...

Ron
It would be even better if you gave us reason to believe you had read and understood the law and were keeping current on it. Nowhere is the power granted to just stop someone on the street and ask for their papers.

[WB9YZU]

... No one is trying to let police or ICE start stopping people on the streets asking for ID...

If I read the Union's letter correctly, that is exactly what they want to do.
The letter indicates that it's members are upset because the only way they can check an ID is after the suspect has committed a crime and has been arrested. They want to return to doing "Street Arrests" of Illegal Immigrants. How can you do "Street Arrests" of an Illegal Immigrants without checking IDs? I don't think the Union has a leg to stand on there.

Don't get me wrong here. I am not Pro-Illegal Immigration. I am just stating what the policies are as I understand them.

Ron

Edit: Darky, As for you comment that said I should somehow give you an idea that I understand the issue. I guess that would apply to everyone in these discussions, yourself included. Maybe we should have a little disclaimer at the bottom of the post stating that you have followed and understand the material ;)

[joe_peters]

If I read the Union's letter correctly, that is exactly what they want to do.
The letter indicates that it's members are upset because the only way they can check an ID is after the suspect has committed a crime and has been arrested. They want to return to doing "Street Arrests" of Illegal Immigrants. How can you do "Street Arrests" of an Illegal Immigrants without checking IDs? I don't think the Union has a leg to stand on there.

Don't get me wrong here. I am not Pro-Illegal Immigration. I am just stating what the policies are as I understand them.

Ron

Edit: Darky, As for you comment that said I should somehow give you an idea that I understand the issue. I guess that would apply to everyone in these discussions, yourself included. Maybe we should have a little disclaimer at the bottom of the post stating that you have followed and understand the material ;)

Under FEDERAL LAW, on the books as we discuss this, FEDERAL agents can stop ANYONE THEY WANT TO AND DEMAND TO SEE I.D. AND PROOF OF YOUR IMMIGRATION STATUS, so the Border Agents aren't asking for anything that isn't already there under existing federal law--they just are tired of being prevented from doing their lawful jobs BY ALL THE POLITICIANS THAT WANT AMNESTY AND OPEN BORDERS and have ordered them NOT TO ENFORCE EXISTING LAW.

JOHN MORTON, the famous ICE Director for NON-Enforcement, AG Holder, Obama, and the rest of the Internationale Progressive Socialist Peoples Party comrades, along with way to many RINOs.

[WB9YZU]

Under FEDERAL LAW, on the books as we discuss this, FEDERAL agents can stop ANYONE THEY WANT TO AND DEMAND TO SEE I.D. AND PROOF OF YOUR IMMIGRATION STATUS, so the Border Agents aren't asking for anything that isn't already there under existing federal law--they just are tired of being prevented from doing their lawful jobs BY ALL THE POLITICIANS THAT WANT AMNESTY AND OPEN BORDERS and have ordered them NOT TO ENFORCE EXISTING LAW.

JOHN MORTON, the famous ICE Director for NON-Enforcement, AG Holder, Obama, and the rest of the Internationale Progressive Socialist Peoples Party comrades, along with way to many RINOs.

Joe, you are going to have to find that. I don't believe a Federal, State, County, or City Enforcement Officer can just walk up to anyone and ask for an ID without probable cause. You have protections under the 4th Amendment against Search and Seizure, and that extends to the personal level.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.'

Ron

[kastein]

Joe, you are going to have to find that. I don't believe a Federal, State, County, or City Enforcement Officer can just walk up to anyone and ask for an ID without probable cause. You have protections under the 4th Amendment against Search and Seizure, and that extends to the personal level.


Ron
I fully agree. I would not be surprised if the feds can break this currently (just how many unconstitutional laws do we have? a lot, I'm sure) but they should not be able to. I do not believe it is constitutional to be able to pull the nazi-like "your papers please" without someone first committing a crime that justifies a search of some sort.

[Darky]

I fully agree. I would not be surprised if the feds can break this currently (just how many unconstitutional laws do we have? a lot, I'm sure) but they should not be able to. I do not believe it is constitutional to be able to pull the nazi-like "your papers please" without someone first committing a crime that justifies a search of some sort.
The only way I could see it happening and not being a major problem (note I said major, it would still be a minor problem) would be at an immigration protest or the like, where the people are protesting against anti-illegal immigration laws.

[Capt. Nemo]

Meh, I guess I'll reply...

ARS 11-1051 (SB 1070), which was pretty much axed, picks up after a lawful stop has been made. This seems to be fairly obvious to most here, but not to those who are against it. This law changed nothing as to how an officer goes about making a lawful stop or detention.

Once the stop has been made, an officer "when practicable" would then go about asking about immigration status. Problem here is that the only way that this state law could have been enforced is with federal help. There are a few ways that this was going to happen:

1) An officer would contact ICE. Our agency ran a test run prior to the law being put into effect and ICE was literally hanging up on us. Either that or the phone would continually ring. They basically gave us the middle finger.

2) An officer could contact a federally certified 287G officer employed by our department. Well, there's only a couple and good luck if you work third shift. We could have more officers become 287G certified, however, those classes are several weeks long and are only offered by the federal government as scheduled by our Secretary of Homeland Security, Janet Napolitano. We were told there are no classes being made available at this time (imagine that).

3) An officer can kinda cheat and try to contact the 287G officers at the county jail, but they are swamped as it is and are not obligated to answer the phone.

4) Contact Homeland Security. Most likely will result in having to leave a message. They will get back to us in 24 to 36 hours we were told. Since a normal "reasonable" detention is at most 20 minutes, not a very good option.

5) Have the person detained for an arrestable offense and immigration status won't matter since they will be screened by ICE at the county jail automatically. By far the best option and the one that has been in effect for several years.

Border Patrol told us they are not responding for any pick-ups north of Tuscon. If we do happen to get a hold of ICE and the person is found to have civil federal charges against them, we are not allowed to automatically transport them to ICE. They have to accept our free ride to ICE. If they have criminal federal charges, then we can transport to ICE.

Bottom line is that even had this law gone into effect, not much would have changed without the feds help. They've made it clear they do not plan on helping. More documentation on our end which ends up being forwarded to ICE, but what they end up doing with the reports is anyones guess.

I'm off to work :)

[Crawler]

Here's a recent article from azcentral.com -


Feds to drop deportation of thousands of illegal immigrants
Migrants with chance of legal residency would be able to stay
Aug. 28, 2010 12:00 AM

WASHINGTON - The Obama administration is moving to throw out deportation cases against thousands of illegal immigrants if the immigrants have a potential path to legal residency.

The move could affect as many as 17,000 immigrants who entered the country illegally or overstayed their visas, including some who are currently being detained and could be released from detention facilities as part of the move, according to Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials.


It comes amid a push by ICE to focus on illegal immigrants who have committed crimes, rather than seek to deport all illegal immigrants.

Officials say the shift is needed to reduce massive clogs in the nation's Immigration Courts, where detainees can wait for months or years before their cases are decided, and to use deportation as a tool for public safety.

"ICE is dedicating unprecedented resources to the removal of criminal aliens," said Richard Rocha, deputy press secretary at the immigration-enforcement agency. "The focus now is clearly on criminal aliens. ... We want to ensure convicted criminal aliens are not only removed from the community but from the country as well."

Rocha said the deportation of criminals accounts for about half of all removals, an all-time high.

If the immigrants who are released under the new policy have their applications for legalization rejected, ICE will resume removal proceedings.

While immigration advocates applauded the move and said it reflects a more humane approach to illegal immigrants in detention, Republican lawmakers and groups that favor stricter limits on immigration denounced it as a form of amnesty.

The number of immigrants being detained in the United States has doubled in the past decade, to 369,000 annually.

There are now about 248,000 cases awaiting review in backlogged Immigration Courts, according to Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse at Syracuse University, which tracks immigration statistics.

In Arizona, there are 8,343 cases awaiting review in Immigration Courts as of June 21, up from 6,868 at the end of September 2009, the end of the past fiscal year, according to the Syracuse University analysis.

A majority of the cases, 6,169, are pending in the Phoenix Immigration Court.

Some of those cases have been scheduled for final hearings as far out as 2015 because the backlog is so long, said Gerald Burns, a Chandler immigration lawyer.

The increases have triggered huge logistical problems and exposed successive administrations to charges that those who are in the country illegally, a violation of civil statutes, are being exposed to unnecessarily harsh conditions.

Simultaneously, ICE officials maintain, clogged Immigration Courts divert officials from identifying, tracking down and deporting illegal immigrants who have committed violent crimes and other offenses.

In a memo dated Aug. 20, ICE Director John Morton wrote that as many as 17,000 illegal immigrants have pending applications for legal status with the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, ICE's sister agency within the Department of Homeland Security.

Illegal immigrants who might be eligible for legal status can wait for years, and sometimes a decade or longer, for visas to become available because of long backlogs and caps on the number of visas issued per year per country.

Morton's memo did not specify how many of the 17,000 illegal immigrants are currently in detention and how many are not.

As those applications are being reviewed, immigrants in detention who do not have criminal backgrounds may be eligible for release, Morton said.

Local ICE officials have discretion in releasing detainees, he added, and will take into consideration a number of factors, including "national security and public safety."

Mark Krikorian, executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies, which supports tighter controls on immigration, warned that the move would demoralize agents working for ICE and would also send the wrong message.

Krikorian acknowledged that the government has to set immigration-enforcement priorities but said the shortfall in resources stems partly from the Obama administration's not seeking sufficient means to expedite the review of cases and the deportation of detainees.

"Simply letting them go sends a harmful message to immigration agents and to illegal immigrants," he said. "(Immigration agents feel) their work is not valued. The message sent to the illegals is that even if you are put into deportation proceedings, we will let you go."

The Washington Post and Republic reporter Daniel Gonzalez contributed to this article.

[Fullsizexj]

Joe, you are going to have to find that. I don't believe a Federal, State, County, or City Enforcement Officer can just walk up to anyone and ask for an ID without probable cause. You have protections under the 4th Amendment against Search and Seizure, and that extends to the personal level

I beleive that only applies to legal U.S. citizens, if you are an illigal alein, you do not have 4th ammendment rights

[joe_peters]

Joe, you are going to have to find that. I don't believe a Federal, State, County, or City Enforcement Officer can just walk up to anyone and ask for an ID without probable cause. You have protections under the 4th Amendment against Search and Seizure, and that extends to the personal level

I beleive that only applies to legal U.S. citizens, if you are an illigal alein, you do not have 4th ammendment rights

I'm looking for the precedent. It was established that federal agents can ask you your immigration status when you are detained by them--the case in point was a woman was asked her immigration status during the execution of a search warrant on a residence for drugs. The woman was not in custody, nor had she been arrested. The court held that when a federal agent asks you a question you are in fact "detained", and therefore the question was legal.

In case you don't think you are "detained" when an LEO asks you a question, try running away from them and see what happens.

And if you think things couldn't get worse: recent court decision that LEOs can sneak onto your property and plant a GPS tracking device on your vehicles without a warrant. The court's reasoning--you have no expectation of privacy on your own property because the neighborhood kids and delivery persons can enter upon your property, therefore you have no rights.

Today your Constitutional Rights extend about as far as a round from your weapon will travel.