front leaf springs on an XJ

[DraVen]

ok i have an 85 cherokee chief and i was thinking of putting leaf on the front... i know i will have to modify the unibody.. but is this practical?

i mean i have built my Samurai and i have made the frame longer on that.. so it should be about the same right?

[HTeK]

Search.

Best post on the subject HERE (http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=27835)

Yes, its practical and I have done it. Its a decent option depending on what your looking for... But a rather unpopular topic around here.

-jm

[twisted_ed]

I have said it before and I will say it again, my dad who is a heavy duty mechanic and welder/fabricator once told me what his University proffessor once said "when you start fabricating and making your own suspension products to then take on the responsibilites and liabilitys of the manufactuer." which means, you can have your ass sued for somthing like this, so be warned.

[JamesD]

Try this. Fairly helpful. http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Leafspring_conversion/leafs.htm

[CRASH]

But a rather unpopular topic around here.

-jm

It's not that it's an unpopular topic, its really a rather amusing one. :spin1:

The debate is always what you are gaining by the front leaf mod. Personally, I think you lose performance in pursuit of simplicity. For some that's a valid trade-off. In the end, I don't think it's any less work to execute than a custom coil suspension, especially if you take the time to do it correctly (I think you've done one of the nicest jobs around, HTek.)

[HTeK]

In the end, I don't think it's any less work to execute than a custom coil suspension, especially if you take the time to do it correctly

Looking back, I agree... I had two reasons for doing leafs: cost and simplicity.

In hindsight, the additional work to do coils would have been minor. And, the Rubicon Express Extreme Duty leafs aren't exactly cheap. So, in the end I did end up saving a little in terms of both cost and simplicity - but really not much.

I dont really regret going the way I did because it was a huge learning experience.


I have said it before and I will say it again, my dad who is a heavy duty mechanic and welder/fabricator once told me what his University proffessor once said "when you start fabricating and making your own suspension products to then take on the responsibilites and liabilitys of the manufactuer." which means, you can have your ass sued for somthing like this, so be warned.


Are you new?

This is the advanced fab forum right? Is there ANYONE here that doesn't have custom suspension?


-jm

[rocklandxjer]

im pretty sure for daily drivers that he is right, if you drive around town with a suspension youve made yourself, its possible that they could sue you, although depending on their lawyer you may or may not lose, theyll have to prove it was your suspension that caused the accident.

at least thats what i would assume

[mattyg]

I have said it before and I will say it again, my dad who is a heavy duty mechanic and welder/fabricator once told me what his University proffessor once said "when you start fabricating and making your own suspension products to then take on the responsibilites and liabilitys of the manufactuer." which means, you can have your ass sued for somthing like this, so be warned.

well what about all the home grown 4links and ford radius cut and paste jobs i see here and else where, seen alot of scary link setups and leaf setups, for critical parts i like a good reliable name aftermarket company like RE. But for bumpers and other stuff like that, out comes the angle grinder and welder

[FarmerMatt]

Anybody can sue anybody for anything. If you don't want to get sued than live in a hole.

[twisted_ed]

yep, lots of custom stuff, for sure, I was only letting him know, if he wasent already aware, that anything custom not build by a company can be bad if there is an accedent

[hadfield4wd]

yep, lots of custom stuff, for sure, I was only letting him know, if he wasent already aware, that anything custom not build by a company can be bad if there is an accedent

Thank you good citizen.

You can still be sued like Farmermatt said. Who's to say he torques the bolts properly and retorgued them per specs. This country is run by lawyers you can get sued for anything anytime.

OK back to the leaf springs.

[ashmanjeepxj]

I did leafs shackle in front, ran good for years till I got 42in tires on beadlocks, it was so soft I went faster and faster, feals fine right... but it killed the leafs. one main leaf bent per trip. Shackle in back would hold up alot better but dosent fit easily on the XJ.

I now have a double triangulated 4 link and 2.5in body 16in coilovers. its $1700 in materials, doing all the work myself (2.5 months) the leafs were free, quick and easy. No way 4 years ago could I have done the front 4link correct, The front has alot of clearance issues for long travel links and big tires.

I went through afew Mainleafs and like the toyota minitruck milwraped main leafs. just wish I did shackel in back.

http://www.wheelingarizona.com/forums/download.php?id=6477
http://www.wheelingarizona.com/forums/files/thumbs/t_front_flex2_124.jpg

http://www.wheelingarizona.com/forums/files/Toyleafs.jpg

[gregmondro]

I have said it before and I will say it again, my dad who is a heavy duty mechanic and welder/fabricator once told me what his University proffessor once said "when you start fabricating and making your own suspension products to then take on the responsibilites and liabilitys of the manufactuer." which means, you can have your ass sued for somthing like this, so be warned.

/que waterboy

"well momma said alligators are honrey cuz they got all them teeth and no toothbrush!"

[twisted_ed]

Thank you good citizen.

You can still be sued like Farmermatt said. Who's to say he torques the bolts properly and retorgued them per specs. This country is run by lawyers you can get sued for anything anytime.

OK back to the leaf springs.

well its alot easier to prove that an accident was the cause of a suspension that is not engineered for that vehicle than to prove one bolt was not torqued tight enought, not exaclty a solid point. Yes lawyers can do anything, but thats what defense lawyers are for, and a defense lawyer will have a far better chance of winning a case if its a stock style suspension or a bolt not torques enough, rather than an obviously all custom suspension build in the home. I had a friend that lost his Jeep, home and life savings becuase in an accident the lawyer proved that it was a coil spacer that caused the proiblem because the lift company said that that spacer was not part of the kit nor engineered to work with the kit, and would therefore not back him up. So all I am doing if trying to help a guy out should it not be a trail rig. If mine wer a trail rig I would swap to leaf springs in a heartbeat.

[Starboard M]

I had a friend that lost his Jeep, home and life savings becuase in an accident the lawyer proved that it was a coil spacer that caused the proiblem because the lift company said that that spacer was not part of the kit nor engineered to work with the kit, and would therefore not back him up. So all I am doing if trying to help a guy out should it not be a trail rig. If mine wer a trail rig I would swap to leaf springs in a heartbeat.
Id like to know how a coil spacer cause an accident.

[twisted_ed]

It doesnt but the plaintiffs lawyer decided to use the fact that it wasent part of the engineered suspention system and it was the overall suspension system not performing as it should which caused the accident which was the defendents fault because he moddified it with coil spacers among other thing if I remember it correctly.

[vetteboy]

If that's really how it went down, that case was lost by a poor defense.

For what it's worth, just because a lift kit is 'bought' vs. fabricated doesn't really mean crap. No aftermarket suspension companies that I know of stand behind their products being used on the road, and I can think of more than a few that have disclaimers all over saying "for off-road use only".

[hadfield4wd]

If that's really how it went down, that case was lost by a poor defense.


I agree. Always hire a rich lawyer.

[CRASH]

The great thing about URF products are that they are designed to work with almost all other mods, at any lift height.

We have a rather extensive liability policy, we'll be right there for you in front of the jury if you ever need us. :D

[twisted_ed]

The great thing about URF products are that they are designed to work with almost all other mods, at any lift height.

We have a rather extensive liability policy, we'll be right there for you in front of the jury if you ever need us. :D

Which is good because the lift company who I won't say, only comment to the case was if I recall the letter said that after getting pictures from the insurance company or whoever sent them in said that their product would not have caused the accident by itself but since the components were moddfied from orginal they would not say that it was the reason or not the reason but that it would not have perfromed as designed (which the prosecution used to say that it was designed as an engineered kit to operate safely within the vehicles capabilites on and off road, which the lift company confirmed) this allowed the prosecution prove without a doubt that the suspesnion was not acting within the guidelines that it was designed and could have contributed to the problem, and since there were no other legitimate, logical reasons for the accident in question it was deemed a moddified suspension, or basically a simple coil spacer. \\

Had the spacer and lift block in the back not been there the lift company would have confimed that the lift was working within engineered specifications and would have backed up their product leaving the prosecution with only driver error for this situation and his insurance would have covered it.

Thats the basic story. Murphys law, what can happen will happen.

[HTeK]

Pretty interesting... and it sucks for that guy.

What the hell was the point of this thread again?

Oh yea... leaf springs. Significant design points of my own front leaf suspension were actually stole from this impressive design:
http://www.ruralmissouri.org/Images/RuralMissouri/Apr05/springs.jpg

[twisted_ed]

Pretty interesting... and it sucks for that guy.

What the hell was the point of this thread again?

Oh yea... leaf springs. Significant design points of my own front leaf suspension were actually stole from this impressive design:
http://www.ruralmissouri.org/Images/RuralMissouri/Apr05/springs.jpg

Woah... thats like crazy.... thats some crazy new technology, you should get a patent on that asap :)

[xjaddiction]

They can work, and they're easier and cheaper to use when changing out the front axle...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/randysford/wheelin%2012-17-06/HPIM0605.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a147/MJADDICTION/mjtan/summertown/Summertown06194.jpg?t=1166723350

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a147/MJADDICTION/mjtan/summertown/Summertown06193.jpg?t=1166723378

On a XJ they will take some reinforcement of the LCA mount. Up front, better use a stout front bumper set-up, or a fabbed cross-member, and fab up some beefed up frame rails with steering box brace. You'll also need to go with high-steer. Cost for me when I finish with redneck ram, high-steer 1 tons etc, and the lift springs, and front fabwork about $1000. So, if your having it done, will cost more than a bought lift and install. If your swapping out axles and need to weld link brackets and coils will be more. That's why I went this route with the Waggy front D-44.

Drives great on the road, with no sway bars and some Rancho adj shocks. Quiet, compared to all the clinking of the link points vs leaves. I'm using ProComp 4" YJ leaves up front. I'm running 38x14.50 TSL SX's. Ride is soft an confident in the SOA.

[95steel]

I have had different lifts on MJ's and XJ's. Driving on the road and the trail. Tomken 6" to rubicon express. I am running leaf springs now and haven't looked back. Much better ride, much more stable in an emergency situation..... sure a long arm kit will have a little more travel, but I'll sacrifice travel for being able to side hill.

Leaf conversions are simple, easy.... and work. Saying that you could get sued.... yep you could. You could also get sued for having a home made bumper that tore some honda's roof off. My only advice is if you don't know what you are doing, have a proffesional do it.

[vintagespeed]

....Significant design points of my own front leaf suspension were actually stole from this impressive design:
http://www.ruralmissouri.org/Images/RuralMissouri/Apr05/springs.jpg

I'm seriously considering a transverse rear leaf spring for my MJ when/if I tube it out.

[xrayjeeper83]

What advantage would that give you/

Ok I have been debating this for a while and reading this leaf might be how I want to go. I have about 4.5 inch of lift. Would stock grand waggy leafs SOA on a dana 44 give me about the same lift or what should I use?

Andrew

[95steel]

Should be around 7 inches of lift. Waggy springs are not a bad idea. I went with 3.5 wrangler springs from BDS. Mill wrapped, life time waranty... very happy with the results!

[vintagespeed]

What advantage would that give you?...

#1 - less weight
#2 - since I will be tubing the back half of the frame this will allow me not to have overhanging rear shackles and leafs behind the axle
#3 - will maintain the resistance to droop that stock leafs offer (although less), i dont like the way that rear coils/coilovers/airshocks unload so easily. (yes it'll have a 4link to locate the axle)
#4 - better flex than a pair of leafs because your pivot point will be at the center of the axle where there is less axle movement during flex
#5 - maybe a decent ride with the proper spring rate and a good sway bar & stiff shock valving (this is the unknown as there aren't many out there)

it'll be kindof an experiment, if it doesn't work maybe i'll do airbags instead...

[xjaddiction]

I used 4" Procomp YJ leaves, give about 9 to 10"es of lift

[xrayjeeper83]

Ok Im running 33's now and gonig to go up to 35's(reason for axle swap) should I just run stock YJ springs?

Andrew

[vetteboy]

I have had different lifts on MJ's and XJ's. Driving on the road and the trail. Tomken 6" to rubicon express. I am running leaf springs now and haven't looked back. Much better ride, much more stable in an emergency situation..... sure a long arm kit will have a little more travel, but I'll sacrifice travel for being able to side hill.

I guess you've never heard of roll center, then.

[obxtuf]

people stop looking to deep who cares about what you think about laws today. Can this be done ? is there a kit you can buy ? is this guy gonna Have to fab the whole front suspension. that is all he has basically asked thats all, thats it.

[xjaddiction]

No kit, fab the front, use the rear LCA mounts to bolt up YJ leaves. Will need to reinforce the XJ LCA's, MJ's already reinforced.
When you fab, you can use a fabbed crossmember, or if you have an aftermarket bumper, you can add some mounts for the shackles and front springs. I used Confer lift shackles for a YJ. Really help it flex. We used a YJ main leaf eye cut off with about 3"es of the spring attatched. This is welded and bolted to the fabbed bumper.

I used a Waggoneer Front D-44, which has a trac bar. We used the MJ trac bar, shortened and sleeved it to fit. The steering is an altered Waggy set-up.
We also bumped the front axle up about 2"es (my MJ is a 121" WB), so I ended up lengthenning the front D-shaft, and used an internal sleeve press fit, then welded. Stock MJ front d-shaft was used.


Excuse the steering for now. It works, but am about to do the high steer. I have some bump steer right now, and some play inbetween steering left to right. Not too bad, but after driving my friend's with the Drag OTK, ready to get the steering done right. With the 38's, you'll put some major stress on the steering. My frame is boxed on the driver's side, and the steering box is bolted on with grade 8's. I'll add a box brace soon too. I sheered the factory bolts (all three), and put a small crack in the rail on the trip before reinforcing.

I can't take any credit for this set-up, other than being there and lending a hand during the build. My friend came up with this idea, and has it down to a science. He is an experienced wheeler, welder, and a factory Jeep mechanic. Definately get someone to do this that has experience.

The ride with leaves is fantastic. And, I've driven my 'ol now sold XJ with a high dollar Tereflex, Rubicon (with DB's) lift for many years before the MJ. I Love the MJ better than i did the XJ!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/randysford/wheelin%2012-17-06/HPIM0607.jpg

[yellowxj]

2.5" yj springs let my 36's rub so if your going to run 35's go ahead and put the 4" yj springs on. I took my 4" springs off to try the 2.5" but wound up putting the 4" back on.

I didnt reinforce my lca mounts...drilled through them about 1.5" behind the lca mount hole IIRC...went through 2 layers of metal...never had a problem with fatigue that I saw. Used a tractor 3rd link for a quick disconnect track bar...helped the steering on the street.

we used stock waggy springs on a mj later...it cleared 35's and flexxed nicely.

[xrayjeeper83]

xjadd. did you have to move the spring mounts on the axle its self. Looks like they were left alone.

Andrew

[xjaddiction]

I had to move them. Not much, but removed old mounts, and welded new on. My friend bolted everything together before welding spring perches, literally drove the Jeep straight forward, and back a couple of times, and welded the perches. The pinion angles are perfect. Even with the front hubs locked in, with a lengthened unbalanced d-shaft, and a lock-rite, the front is pretty smooth. With the hubs locked out, smooth as silk. No drive-line vibes.

we also had to make a shock mount for the axle. I used quarter angle, drilled two holes to bolt the u-bolt for the springs, bolted it up. Drilled hole to mount shock with bushings and a bolt.

[95steel]

I guess you've never heard of roll center, then.


Yes I have. This is not my first jeep, not my first leaf sprung jeep either. I had a tj with a long arm kit (home made)... believe me I have spent hours on the four link calculator. I am talking lift kits bolted in with factory R&D compared to what I have now. My rig is twice a stable with leaf springs.

People will always argue about what is better.... I know what works for me, that is the only thing I care about. Do what works for you.

[ashmanjeepxj]

Id like to see some one do a frame notch like I did for my upper links, but use it for Shackle in back leaf spring setup..

If I was shackle in back I probably would still be running leafs.

http://www.wheelingarizona.com/forums/files/thumbs/t_000_0003_610.jpg

http://www.wheelingarizona.com/forums/files/thumbs/t_000_0003_186.jpg

[yellowxj]

thats pretty neat ashman

[DirtyMJ]

Id like to see some one do a frame notch like I did for my upper links, but use it for Shackle in back leaf spring setup..



Okay, where were you two months ago when I did my front leafs? I thought about doing that, but didn't... I was having a hard enough time finding any quality pictures of people's rear hangers as it was. It could solve a lot of problems though. Right now the truck sits about 3" too tall, and the spring angle is kinda weird. If I link the rear I'll definatly take the time to notch it out like that.


Then I won't have bloody 8" of lift with 37s.


It's that or I just buck the cab off the unibody and fix it the way I wanted too...