TOTM: Rollcages

[crazyjim]

JUNE: Rollcages

This month's dedicated Jeepspeed thread is all about rollcages. With the recent talk on rollcage design, now is as good of a time as any. Let's see what you've built, and what you're going to build. Address anything from triangulation to cage tie-ins.

[Loose_Nuts_Enterprises]

One that is well planned ahead of time will usually be better than one that's been added to 15 times like mine has.
Mine started as the fairly simple rock crawler type cage, which worked well. (Only tested a hard flop once, but nothing
but sheet metal moved.) But it's a tried and true chassis stiffener. Since we got into racing and prerunning, I have
added a lot of tubes. While I feel it's still safe for what I do, it could have been done a lot cleaner and simpler if
I'd have cut it all out and started over...hindsight...

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l221/loosenutdan/shocks.jpg?t=1246901939

-Dan

[chris_amrein]

I believe a rollcage serves 2 functions. First is to protect the occupants in a rollover. Second is to make the race car a single, rigid unit.

I think a good cage is pretty much tied into the body continuosly from bumper to bumper. This makes the car handle better and last longer. A weld-in rollcage kit serves a purpose and increases safety but a properly built race car needs to have the cage attached at the A,B,C pillars, the roof, the floor and so on.

I can't post pics of my current JS build but if someone wants to post them for me I can email them.

Chris

[crazyjim]

shoot 'em my way Chris, my screen name at gmail.com

[Ben_Dyer]

how would you guys add an "exo cage" top for a built in roof rack, to an exsisting interior roll cage? and then eventually to add a complete exco cage with pillar bars to the sliders and rear bumper, etc....

[crazyjim]

how would you guys add an "exo cage" top for a built in roof rack, to an exsisting interior roll cage? and then eventually to add a complete exco cage with pillar bars to the sliders and rear bumper, etc....
We wouldn't... Jeepspeed's don't need exo cages, that's crawler stuff... They're also usually WAY unsafe and underbuilt.

[BajaCurt]

Let's see ... how would I do a JS cage?!?
I think I would start with a nice pre-fabbed T&J weld in cage kit.
Then get grandiose plans about what to do to my XJ (coilovers, engine cage etc) and let it sit for like 3 years while I buy a house, buy an MJ etc etc
Sorry Jim I couldn't resist :D

[Ben_Dyer]

ok then assuming you would want to and since it is still technially a roll cage and would be adding into the interior roll cage that is NOT underfabbed how would a person that wanted to tie an exo into an interior cage do such a thing?

[crazyjim]

ok then assuming you would want to and since it is still technially a roll cage and would be adding into the interior roll cage that is NOT underfabbed how would a person that wanted to tie an exo into an interior cage do such a thing?
This is not a question for the Jeepspeed forum, go ask that question in advanced tech. Adding an exo cage to an already pre-existing interior cage is added weight, and unnecessary.

[crazyjim]

Let's see ... how would I do a JS cage?!?
I think I would start with a nice pre-fabbed T&J weld in cage kit.
Then get grandiose plans about what to do to my XJ (coilovers, engine cage etc) and let it sit for like 3 years while I buy a house, buy an MJ etc etc
Sorry Jim I couldn't resist :D



Oooooh low blow Curt, low blow. But at least I'm still in California where DESERTS EXIST!! :moon::wave:

[xcm]

This is not a question for the Jeepspeed forum, go ask that question in advanced tech. Adding an exo cage to an already pre-existing interior cage is added weight, and unnecessary.

GET EM JIM!

ive got some mspaint requests once this thread dies down a bit.

[Goatman]

ok then assuming you would want to and since it is still technially a roll cage and would be adding into the interior roll cage that is NOT underfabbed how would a person that wanted to tie an exo into an interior cage do such a thing?

Get out the hole saw, cut holes in the roof, run short tubes from the interior cage to the roof rack/roof hoop. I can see a roof hoop/roof rack if you really want a roof rack and want to protect the body, but the rest of the exo is just a bunch of extra weight and ugliness.

If you don't mind doing a search there are a ton of threads about cage design, including combo interior and exo cages. If you search using just my name as poster you'll find a bunch of posts on the subject.

[silverslk]

Here is my friend Kenneths Jeep (more torn down now than Jims). He had this roof rack tied to the interior cage as goatman described above. Notice, it was a minimalist approach to roof rack as well.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/blehi/600_MeyersManxBaja500_001.jpg

[GrimmJeeper]

I've got a bunch of pics saved from teenycar's build thread over on the jeepspeed site, I'd probably need to ask his permission to post em, but would it be OK to just link to the thread? I really like the way certain parts of his setup came together, the dash in particular.

[crazyjim]

Sure Mike!

[GrimmJeeper]

Alright then, here is a link to his build thread.

http://www.jeepspeed.net/smf/index.php?topic=1554.0

I'm hoping my dash will come out half as nice as his did, with some minor modifications. One thing I really liked about that thread is he took pics of every little step along the way, and explained why he did what he did. great read.

skip to page 8 or so to start getting into the cage pics if you can't bother to read the whole thread;)

[ratboy93]

i just picked up my t and j cage from tom and mike at the mdr night race. its a great way to start a int cage. saved me alot of time and well worth the money you pay for it in my opinion.

i agree with alot of the topics here. a cage is the heart of a race car its what makes or breaks the chassis. it will hold your car together in hard impacts esp a jeep.


now im gonna have to do alot more tube work to build it to be where i want it to be. also alot of plate work. but im also in the process of building a racecar not a street driven jeep

[Goatman]

I've got a bunch of pics saved from teenycar's build thread over on the jeepspeed site, I'd probably need to ask his permission to post em, but would it be OK to just link to the thread? I really like the way certain parts of his setup came together, the dash in particular.

Erik builds some sick shit, really nice work. I hadn't seen his Jeepspeed, thanks for the link.

[GrimmJeeper]

Yes, everything he touches comes out awesome... unlike me who ruins everything he touches.. :D

[Ben_Dyer]

apparently my search words did not yield what i was looking or i would not have asked.... so thanks for the help and i will search using goatmans name.

[Goatman]

apparently my search words did not yield what i was looking or i would not have asked.... so thanks for the help and i will search using goatmans name.

Let me know if you don't have any luck. Or, start another thread in mod tech where these go fast guys won't bug us for talking about rock crawling. :D

[Ben_Dyer]

thanks Goatman. and appologies to the others for tolerating me on my way in and out with the wrong tech question.

[DualPurposeXJ]

I plan on getting the T&J cage and was wondering how the guys using the kit strengthen the A pillar where it bends aroud the dash? or what would be a good way to make the door bars to strengthen where it bends?

[crazyjim]

I plan on getting the T&J cage and was wondering how the guys using the kit strengthen the A pillar where it bends aroud the dash? or what would be a good way to make the door bars to strengthen where it bends?
I had this dilemma myself, and while I'm sure the pillar bars the way they are would hold up fine in most roll over situations, and I understand their need for the bend to make it a relatively easy install, I've made the decision to cut off the a-pillars and go down through the dash. I'll also be plating the a-pillar bar to the body of the Jeep as well.

Also, I think b-pillar triangulation is a bit more important, if that holds up, even if the a-pillar collapses, chances are you'll be ok.

[Goatman]

The point of triangulation and nodes is that for one tube to move a bunch of other tubes also have to move, making the whole thing much stronger. Any individual tube doesn't end up carrying much load if the cage is well designed. If the A pillar has a cross bar at the roof line and at the dash, and a couple diagonals from the upper corners back to the B pillar hoop, then a lot of tube has to deform for the A pillar to collapse at a bend around the dash. Basically, most of the stress ends up being either compressing a tube or stretching a tube, which is much harder than bending a tube.

[Mike1331]

Where's the cage pics? I'll have pics of how my cage is coming along on sunday or monday.

[DieselSJ]

A few from our build

http://i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad105/js1717/inside.jpg

http://i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad105/js1717/Racecarbuild010Medium.jpg

http://i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad105/js1717/Racecarbuild011Medium.jpg

http://i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad105/js1717/Racecarbuild013Medium.jpg

[Mike1331]

what about underobdy tie-ins to cage and control arm mounts/drop brackets? Anybody got pics of those?

[DieselSJ]

what about underobdy tie-ins to cage and control arm mounts/drop brackets? Anybody got pics of those?

http://i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad105/js1717/Racecarbuild004Medium.jpg

http://i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad105/js1717/Racecarbuild005Medium.jpg

[Los Lobos]

Great pics! I like the tie in points. In the back seat you have the sheet metal, is there a cut out behind that? My shocks come through the floor around the same spot and
I was thinking of options to isolate the rear. Can you shoot a few more of that area?

[DieselSJ]

Great pics! I like the tie in points. In the back seat you have the sheet metal, is there a cut out behind that? My shocks come through the floor around the same spot and
I was thinking of options to isolate the rear. Can you shoot a few more of that area?

That panel is required to separate the passengers from the fuel cell. Since this is a racer, the holes around the shocks are open. There is nothing to really isolate the front from the rear.

[xcm]

That panel is required to separate the passengers from the fuel cell. Since this is a racer, the holes around the shocks are open. There is nothing to really isolate the front from the rear.

any specifics on how high it's gotta go? material? seal?

i NEED to do something similar, im running a stock tank, but i need a wall to keep the work tools from falling out of my shock cutouts... Im still trying to figure out my b-pillar back diagonals.

[Loose_Nuts_Enterprises]

Here's a couple of the front cage, firewall rebuild, etc. on mine.

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l221/loosenutdan/XJ%20Prerunner%202010/P1040007.jpg?t=1276019752

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l221/loosenutdan/XJ%20Prerunner%202010/P1040003.jpg?t=1276019752

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l221/loosenutdan/XJ%20Prerunner%202010/P1040002.jpg?t=1276019752

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l221/loosenutdan/XJ%20Prerunner%202010/P1040041.jpg?t=1276019752

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l221/loosenutdan/XJ%20Prerunner%202010/P1040034.jpg?t=1276019989

[Mike L]

I can't post pics of my current JS build but if someone wants to post them for me I can email them.

Here are Chris' pics:

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d57/gotboost562/nj4.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d57/gotboost562/nj6.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d57/gotboost562/nj7.jpg

[DualPurposeXJ]

Also, I think b-pillar triangulation is a bit more important, if that holds up, even if the a-pillar collapses, chances are you'll be ok.

i plan on putting 2 bucket seats in the back of my jeep. is there a good way to get some b-pillar triangulation without making the passengers stare at tubes?

[I Beamed Jeep]

DualPurposeXJ (http://www.naxja.org/forum/member.php?u=57173)
Something like this might be good. Looking threw the red area.

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv202/Pasqally/brakelines-1.jpg

[DualPurposeXJ]

^^^ that could work. what if i put an X or something similar in the C pillar and just gusset the corners of the B pillars? would that be strong enough or should i put the tubes in the B pillar instead of the C pillar?

[GrimmJeeper]

Hey dan, do you have a bead roller over at the shop?

[I Beamed Jeep]

DualPurposeXJ
My .02 My jeep is a 2 seater so I made the A and B pillars as strong as possible if I were to have 4 seats I'd make A B & C strong. I'm all so trying to hall some grocerie's threw some big shit lol but if your more on the pit roads then you might be able to get away with a little less. Remember lots of cage to cab mnts.

Here is my A & B pillar's.
http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv202/Pasqally/doorbarandwes006.jpg
http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv202/Pasqally/frontonjeeppics004.jpg

[Loose_Nuts_Enterprises]

Hey dan, do you have a bead roller over at the shop?

Yeah. I have one at home as well, but it's the harbor freight one. The HF one works good on thinner stuff. You can beef them up to make them work better, but with the one at the shop, I haven't had the need to.

-Dan

[Los Lobos]

Thanks to everyone that posted pictures! There are some great ideas floating around.

[GrimmJeeper]

can we talk materials? without digging up the endless dom vs crew vs hrew debate PLEASE

what would you guys consider a must for tube size and wall thickness? I am planning my cage right now, and would like some advice. I was thinking of going 1.75 for the main parts of the cage itself and the x bars of the b pillar bracing, and using 1.5 for the bracing, engine cage, and bumpers... along with any additional tube that is not a part of the passenger protection.

basically creating a section of 1.75 around the "cockpit" and using smaller tube elsewhere to save weight. What are the advantages/disadvantages of doing something like that?

[tbburg]

...,basically creating a section of 1.75 around the "cockpit" and using smaller tube elsewhere to save weight,...nothing wrong with that. Even the sanctioning bodies don't spec. tube size for the ends of the car. Just the passenger cage structure.
If you're not planning on competition, 1.5 throughout would be OK. Until a rule change a few year ago, 1.5" tube was Score-legal for a Cherokee.

[GrimmJeeper]

nothing wrong with that. Even the sanctioning bodies don't spec. tube size for the ends of the car. Just the passenger cage structure.
If you're not planning on competition, 1.5 throughout would be OK. Until a rule change a few year ago, 1.5" tube was Score-legal for a Cherokee.

good info, thanks!

I'm not planning on fitting into a class or racing, but i do like to go fast and am getting old enough that I am starting to think about being safe while I do it ;)

[chris_amrein]

A couple years ago I bent a 1.5 OD tube for the B pillar hoop of a Cherokee cage and I scrapped it because it looked too small. I have seen a Jeepspeed or 2 that are built of 1.5 OD but I think 1.75 is the standard.

Fwiw my central 4 point cage is 1.75 OD as are the winshield tube and harness bar. My "X" brace above and behind the seats are 1.5 OD. Door bars and engine cage are 1.25"

[Goatman]

I wouldn't worry about doing it in 1.5 .120 if it's not going to race. My buggy is built out of 1.5 and it's been over a number of times, once pretty hard, though never at speed. Many rock buggies are 1.5, though with KOH there is a trend to go with 1.75 in the main passenger areas to meet race sanctioning body rules. The XJ already has a body, so you're adding to that existing structure which helps. I think using DOM over HREW would add more strength than going 1.75 over 1.5. As you know, design and triangulation mean more than tube diameter. I'd use 1.5 DOM over 1.75 HREW. Straight bars won't collapse, so it's a matter of a tube bending in and causing deflection of the tube around it.

The only way you'll really know is to build two of them and then go crash them hard and compare. :D

[chris_amrein]

I agree with what Goatman is saying. A poorly designed 2" OD chromoly cage can fail where a properly designed 1.5" OD mild steel cage won't.

I generally tell people if you are building Jeepspeed-type vehicle/cage to use 1.75" OD tube in case you someday want to race SCORE or you sell your car and the new buyer wants to race SCORE.

[Larrythedog]

I agree with what Goatman is saying. A poorly designed 2" OD chromoly cage can fail where a properly designed 1.5" OD mild steel cage won't.

I generally tell people if you are building Jeepspeed-type vehicle/cage to use 1.75" OD tube in case you someday want to race SCORE or you sell your car and the new buyer wants to race SCORE.

X2.

If your racing I would not go smaller then 1 3/4" .120 DOM tubing. But like stated above, a well designed cage is key no matter what size bubing you use.

[GrimmJeeper]

I'm planning on DOM, leaning towards 1.5 now. It should come out pretty well built, the guy building my setup used to build CORR chassis for a living. maybe I'll still do the A pillars and the B hoop in 1.75 just for some added beef. Now I just need to sell off some things i won't be able to use on the new build and start spending every dollar I've got on metal, haha. Not worried about fitting into a class at any later time, I have no interest in racing. I think planning the cage will take more time than the build anyway.

Thanks for the advice guys!

[ratboy93]

what parts are you trying to get rid of?

[GrimmJeeper]

what parts are you trying to get rid of?

pm sent to keep clutter out of the thread

[Goatman]

Like we've talked about before, make sure you have plenty of head room.

[GrimmJeeper]

Like we've talked about before, make sure you have plenty of head room.

first on the list, my head has enough lumps in it already :gee:

[tbburg]

I have seen a Jeepspeed or 2 that are built of 1.5 OD but I think 1.75 is the standard.Jeepspeed follows the SCORE rule book. A couple years ago(more like 3 or 4), SCORE upped the min. tube size to 1.75, but all the cars built before the rule change were grandfathered in. The Jeepspeeds you see with the 1.5 cages are older cars built before the current regs. were introduced.

[FatCity Ryan]

Jeepspeed follows the SCORE rule book. A couple years ago(more like 3 or 4), SCORE upped the min. tube size to 1.75, but all the cars built before the rule change were grandfathered in. .

Cars that raced SCORE and where SCORE tagged where grandfathered. I think the new rule is 1.75 chromolly.

[Loose_Nuts_Enterprises]

Doesn't need to be chro-mo...DOM mild works too, as far as I know.

[FatCity Ryan]

Doesn't need to be chro-mo...DOM mild works too, as far as I know.



Maybe it was the 2" if over 4000lbs rule.

[xcm]

Like we've talked about before, make sure you have plenty of head room.

this never really sank in untill i saw this: http://yfrog.com/1nla48f8a9d25084000951204j warning: blood.

[ratboy93]

dude wtf.. wow im curious as to how this happen? super tall guy? no belts on? because the cage wasnt smashed..

[xcm]

bad rollover with stock belts, if i remember correctly. it was from the carnage thread on DR

[DualPurposeXJ]

does any one have pictures of how they tied there seats into there cage when they used the T&J cage?

[FatCity Ryan]

does any one have pictures of how they tied there seats into there cage when they used the T&J cage?


The basic idea

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b392/FatCity1/stobaugh.jpg