Nice to see NAXJA got invited...

[Frank Z]

http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=166531

[Frank Z]

I'm sure one of the mods over thre will delete my reply, so here's what I posted.

It was so thoughtful and kind of you val to make sure that those of us on Naxja were invited to participate in placing the Memorial Stone.

It sure was great that we've been "in the loop" so to speak and not left out in the cold.

It was great that we were able to make sure that Seth's Mom and Brothers were able to be there to see it.

Oh wait....


We weren't told a damn thing about it.

Thanks again for your thoughtful and courteous consideration.http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/images/smilies/co4x4/rolleyes.gif

[Apostle]

Personally i would have sent a PM. Sucks there was no invite, but the main thing was the trail was done and plaque placed, and thats what matters.

[jwtrapper]

IMO its not worth the fight. Set up another memorial run, run Indy and pay your respects at that time. It's a great thing that everyone in the Off Road Community has came together to make all of this happen, to take care of one of our own lets not end it in an argument.

[Frank Z]

Lots more history than you're aware of.

[planefixer]

Lots more history than you're aware of.

Considering we (You, myself and Troy and others) were the ones that came up with the whole idea and initiated this whole thing from the beginning, I have to say, I'm a little pissed as well.I guess we're good enough to bust our asses and raise $1400 from this and donate it to COHVCO in Seth's name but we're not good enough to get a heads-up about the placing of the memorial. To hell wih those jerk-offs- they'll never get any more of my time or money again.

[Frank Z]

Amen!

[XJNOOB93]

Wow.. thats some bs right there. We should do a run though over there and get a look see at the plaque.

[eflores]

Wow.. thats some bs right there. We should do a run though over there and get a look see at the plaque.

im down fo sho!

[freerider15]

Glad to see a plaque for Seth...

but...

DAMNIT!

Why the FUKK do people keep feeling they need to make Indy easier!?!?

I've seen plenty of rigs drive the exit...which to me makes it plenty do-able :smsoap:

Seriously...just because 90% of people can't make it does NOT mean we should fukk with it!

Bah sorry but that makes me furious...

[in4aride]

1: sucks ya guys didntknow. I don't k ow the story behi d it but what's done is done so go pay respects and enjoy the memory.

2: for those of you wanting to go look-- I posted a trail run in penrose for Sunday. Check it out. Come hang even if ya just wanna camp or check out the trails.

3: I agree with Justin. I saw two guys drive it a few weekends ago. Without rear steer. Rear steer has nothing to do with it. It looked like the combination of tires, throttle, jäger, and some fhuckit in your system got the job done. Progressively harder trails require progressively better driving/equipment.

[YELLAHEEP]

Yeah, I'm pretty miffed as well. But what REALLY sucks is how dadgum long it took to get that memorial plaque placed at all. COHVCO has been so screwed up with in-fighting and other drama, so much of what they stood for got way lost and muddled up.

Regardless...... I'd do it all again. But I pray every day that I never have to.

Indeed, the important thing is that it's finally done! I just hope the Stanton family - if they were there for the stone placement, weren't wondering why no one from NAXJA was there.......

Here's the plaque and it's placement. Pretty damn cool! :thumbup:

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h164/TBetka/dscn0833.jpg

[ColoradoRaptor]

We got word at the last minute ( the day of ) and I was already in the Springs with my Son! It is frustrating to say the least that NAXJA whom Seth represented was not informed of this important day!!! Still, like jwtrapper said, it is not worth the fight! Let's have a trail run and pay our respects NAXJA style!

[old_man]

Nice post over there Troy.

As far as I am concerned, I just scratched them off my christmas list.

[jdogg4]

That was a great response troy!

If they can't send out an easy email, pm or something to notify NAXJA, and include us in something we all helped out with one way or another sounds like we just need to keep our fundraising internal. Sucks that we try and come together but something like this has to push us apart. Makes me want to buy more of those stickers and cover the XJ with them.

On a side note I know there’s some political issues with just getting the placement stone in place, but I have a HD plasma table at work and I just sent my last sticker to my cad guy to do a mock layout to burn it out of metal. That would be cool to have placed on the trail with that stone or on a trail clean up in his name. After he’s done with the layout side of it I’ll try and post up some pics.

I could try and get the metal donated or even at my cost shouldn't be that much if we went 3/16" or 1/4"

[xj-grin]

Perfectly said (over there), Troy. It blows that NAXJA's Colorado Chapter's role was overlooked, but IMHO that is somewhat typical of the cliquey atmosphere at CO4x4 -- what is most important is that the memorial, with NAXJA effort and funding if not sweat, is in place and will provide a great place of remembrance and honor for Seth's family.

Early-mid June massive Chapter run in Seth's honor? Bring his family along if they'd like?

[planefixer]

I wasn't going to post over there but after reading Val's post to Frank I had to reply.:gonnablow

I propose that from now on any fundraising, trail maintenance or anything else related, that we do, does not include even a mention on CO4x4.

[.40CalPatriot]

Wow! I have never been a fan of CO4x4, and really never thought of joining, and now I certainly will not.

Anyways, I am very impressed with the repsonses from Frank, Troy, and Jeff. Thank you for representing NAXJA with great respectful responses, while also giving all involved a good kick in the ass! :thumbup:

[time2getdirty]

Am I seeing things? Have Troy's, Frank's, and Jeff's postings been deleted? It might just be this stupid school computer but I am not seeing them.

I am very disappointed...

[kastein]

Yep. All posts relating to their posts have also been deleted, from what I'm seeing.

[.40CalPatriot]

:rattle::rattle::rattle::rattle:

[time2getdirty]

No joke.
wow

[xj-grin]

totally typical of CO4x4 -- we get accused of being mod nazi's at NAXJA, but they are out of hand over there, and its not based on rules enforcement, its based on personalities and opinion. Frank and I were already steamed, in that they immediately deleted the thread I posted for my wife's Avon Walk for Breast Cancer Fund-raising, and they did the same when Frank posted up for Daniel's school trip to Atlanta for robotics -- god forbid anyone should raise any money for a charity that is not 4x4 related :thumbdn:

COHVA does some good work, and it seems to me that Val legitimately could have lost sight of her responsibilities to keeping NAXJA in the loop - her bad, but we could forgive her. CO4x4 continues to tick me off though, and aside from taking advantage of their productive for-sale boards, I'll be skipping even participating with my free membership, let alone paying them for one. :gonnablow

[Jawa]

Did they go and delete all of your posts over there? I tried to go see them and I can't find them... :dunno:

EDIT: Wow, lots of posts in the time it took me to post this response. Never mind!

[planefixer]

Yep, they deleted our posts- no PMs from the mods as to why they were delelted or anything.



What a bunch of chickenshits!!!!

[jdogg4]

COHVA does some good work, and it seems to me that Val legitimately could have lost sight of her responsibilities to keeping NAXJA in the loop one.

Puts into question how much work is really done "BY" them vs other orgs like NAXJA and other clubs groups do stuff and donate money from there efforts to have COHVA take credit for.

[xj-grin]

true enough.

[YELLAHEEP]

Yeah, deleting our replies to that thread - very chickenshit.

Someone else from NAXJA sent a very professional PM to Val simply asking as to why NAXJA was left out...... I'm thoroughly disappointed and angered by her response. Proof positive that they (both CO4x4 and COHVCO) have their own personal agendas. Donating people/organizations apparently mean nothing to them.

From Val as to why NAXJA wasn't kept in the loop:

"No because I cannot heard cats, and trying to get everyone on the same page is like hearding cats. Sorry feelings were hurt but I had an obligation to the FAMILY not and I took care of that responsiblity.
FWIW the trail maintenence on Indy was in the Trails section on this board."

Apparently sending an e-mail or PM (she's registered on NAXJA) is too difficult and like herding cats....... :rolleyes:

I'm gonna chew on this a while, but I'm likely to get with the heads at COHVCO and voice my disappointment.

[jrsxj98]

Not surprising!!!

[jrsxj98]

Now we all have a lack of class!!!! Whats sad is they wouldnt have even known who
Seth was if it wasnt for NAXJA!!!

[time2getdirty]

I'm gonna chew on this a while, but I'm likely to get with the heads at COHVCO and voice my disappointment.

When you speak to them, please tell them that you are not alone in your feelings.

[XJNOOB93]

Complete Bull... I am not and will never be a part of CO4x4. What a bunch of douche mongers.

[Frank Z]

My PM reply to Eric, Steve, and Camp:

You have got to be shitting me!!!
val made no effort what so ever to involve anyone from NAXJA. No time to send a single PM? Get ****ing real!!!:mad:
She planely stated that she had "The Rock" in the back of her car for god knows how long and in all that time she couldn't send a PM to myself, Planefixer, or Yellaheep. She's a registered user on NAXJA as well.
The Memorial was not her idea, and keeping the placement of said stone a secret shows a distinct lack of class and elevates her to Attention Whore Status like none other!
Contrary to what any of you may think, this isn't about NAXJA or me getting our collective feelings hurt. This is about being left out in the cold after we as a group contacted, consoled, and wept with Anna, her boys, and her entire extended family. This was a deeeply personal matter for more than just a slect handfull.
We gave birth to the memorial idea and Val used it as her own little step stool so she could stand up and make people notice her and her good deed.
I was not wrong in any way shape or form. She damn well needed to be called out for her stunt....because thats all it was.
Feel free to ban me, but be sure to delete all of the posts I've ever made on this forum.

[planefixer]

IMO I think we should find another, more worthy organization to send our donations to. Screw COHVCO and their tactics they don't deserve another penny of my money also, screw CO4x4- that board is a joke.If you're not part of their "clique" the you just don't matter.The mods over there are very good at selective censorship.

[Frank Z]

As far as Steve getting banned from this site:
IIRC, users are dropped/deleted if they don't post in a specified period of time.

[jrsxj98]

Thats what I told him to. Here is his response via PM. I told him I would post it up.

from Steve at CO4x4:
Look, I can actually understand why they might be upset. Really, I do. The problem is that for some bizarre reason they think this board has something to do with it. It doesn't. Val chose to post here, but that was purely her decision. The bigger problem is that they want to hijack a thread here to argue and bitch about it. Val's a member of NAXJA, PM her there about it, or PM her here about it. Don't hijack a thread here to do it.

I lost a very close friend in Iraq. He was a member here. I know his mom very well. I know she'd be appalled if people here were arguing about who got credit for placing a plaque somewhere to honor him. I don't know if Seth's parents look at NAXJA, but I've got to think that the thread there about this wouldn't make them very happy.

The bottom line is that this is a matter between a few members on NAXJA (not the entire NAXJA board) and Val and/or COHVCO (not the entire CO4x4.org board). It should be handled that way.

and

I was going to post up there to remind everyone that this board is not a club, there are no officers, there is no organization, and that this board doesn't arrange, endorse, or approve of anything, it's simply a chat board. Period. This board had NOTHING to do with the trail cleanup and the plaque for Seth. If there's any anger, it should be directed at Val and/or COHVCO, not at this board or its moderators. Guess I won't do that since I'm banned now.

[Frank Z]

As I've stated to both Steve and Camp, this isn't about me or anyone else from NAXJA not getting credit for anything....but the fact the Val decided not to share the information with anyone from NAXJA certainly does piss me off to no end.

Credit? Really?!?!

This is what it's really about.
Three people (No names needed here) spent a huge amount of time, some of there own funds, and more tears than you can imagine for a truely worthwhile cause, Seth and his family. Yes we posted pics, had a trail run, attended the funeral. It wasn't done for any sort of credit. It was done was done out of respect, honor, and love. No more, no less. A mass trailrun to mark the day the stone was laid was never on the agenda, quite the opposite actually. A small presence from NAXJA and the Stanton Family was the plan then.

Credit.

No, we simply wanted to be there....
To hug a mother
Talk to the younger brothers.
Weep.
And celebrate.

Val's comments regarding the burden of keeping the stone in her car simply highlight her calous Me Me Me attitude.

I'd gladly carry that rock friends.

Yeah, I'm all about taking credit.

[jrsxj98]

I agree. Here is my response to Steve and Camp:

I think it was a little over board deleteing the post, and kinda childish. I think the reason those guys are upset is cause they put a lot of effort into the Stanton memorial effort, raise money that was donated to COHVCO in Seths name, etc.

Whats sad is the people who are taking credit for this, who if it wasnt for those guys at NAXJA, had no idea who Seth was or would have even cared. Ask them how many were at his funeral and joined the long convoy of Jeeps for his funeral, or got his jeep running for the family.

[old_man]

This whole incedent has me very disappointed. For the record, here is my email to COHVCO.


The handling of this event has seriously put in jeopardy any future support of your organization.

Seth was a member of our club and our members are the ones who came up with the idea, not to mention raised considerable funds towards it and have supported the family through their grief. Failure to notify of this was unacceptable and was a breach of the most basic common courtesy.

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?p=244903125#post244903125

Tom Houston
NAXJA Colorado Chapter President
former NAXJA National President


As far as I am concerned, they can go pound sand.

[planefixer]

As I've stated to both Steve and Camp, this isn't about me or anyone else from NAXJA not getting credit for anything....but the fact the Val decided not to share the information with anyone from NAXJA certainly does piss me off to no end.

Credit? Really?!?!

This is what it's really about.
Three people (No names needed here) spent a huge amount of time, some of there own funds, and more tears than you can imagine for a truely worthwhile cause, Seth and his family. Yes we posted pics, had a trail run, attended the funeral. It wasn't done for any sort of credit. It was done was done out of respect, honor, and love. No more, no less. A mass trailrun to mark the day the stone was laid was never on the agenda, quite the opposite actually. A small presence from NAXJA and the Stanton Family was the plan then.

Credit.

No, we simply wanted to be there....
To hug a mother
Talk to the younger brothers.
Weep.
And celebrate.

You hit it right on the head- this isn't about "credit" its about being there for a family.Too bad those guys on the other board couldn't figure that out and deleted our posts.I ,for one, didn't personally attack Val.My post was deleted because she's good friends with Steve and Camp and they saw their Princess Diva having negative (negative comments/questions and personal attacks are 2 different things) posts directed at her so they deleted them.

Val's comments regarding the burden of keeping the stone in her car simply highlight her calous Me Me Me attitude.
And Camp calls our classiness into question- what a joke.


I'd gladly carry that rock friends.


Yeah, I'm all about taking credit.

[YELLAHEEP]

Check my post in the motion thread for more on my take of this issue.

Bottom line though........ the good deed was done. Seth's memorial is in place, the trail has it's BLM designation and will be MUCH harder to fall victim to closure. It serves as an excellent example of how to get things done.

COHVCO dropped the ball and this isn't the first time. They're organization is a mess. I'm surprised it's still functioning. They went through some 'restructuring' a while back and better people volunteered to get things back on track, so the delay in the placement of the plaque is somewhat understandable. Unfortunately, Val and others dropped the ball in keeping everyone in the loop.

Let's not get hateful with CO4x4 - it's not an organization with a BOD. It's just a forum. It sucks that they moderate more than they should, but it is what it is. The folks over there just need reminded that all things aren't and can't always be roses and sunshine.

[Frank Z]

I just got back from a service call and read Val's parting shot. Nice to see fair and balanced moderation over there.

[Apostle]

Not registered over there, but that last post by this Val girl...

Being a smart ass and then saying let it drop, who does she think she is? Good thing i never reg'd, that childish type is something i stopped dealing with about 10 years ago. hate people like that.

[ColoradoRaptor]

I am totally dumbfounded by this whole thing!!! I do not know this Val and from the looks of it I will never want to!!!! I like you all would have wanted to be there! I am at a loss for words................. well any good ones that is!! I love this sport and I love my Country, something Seth paid the ultimate price for! For the record I will no longer financially support CO4X4 anymore........... TOTALY UPSET HERE!!

[Sound_Man]

If an email list, PM list or some other form of list for people that want to be contacted about a M&G, trail run or gathering at the memorial exists I would like to be added to it.

I feel as though COHVCO and the BLM dropped the ball on letting people know that this was going to happen. They should have been on top of it and let the wheeling community and the family know that this was going to happen. CO4X4 had no part in any of this. Anyone can post there about anything and that is where a post was made that let everyone know that the memorial stone was put in place. I had been watching the posts in the staging area on CO4X4 about the Indy cleanup and never saw anything that would have led me to believe that the memorial stone was going to be put up. I couldn't make it for the cleanup so I would have missed it anyway. The responsibility for getting the information out lies with COHVCO, not with CO4X4. There is nothing on http://www.cohvco.org/ about it at all, not even after the fact.

It has been a long standing rule on CO4X4 that personal attacks or derogatory comments and any aftermath from them get deleted. I know that I wouldn't have wanted Seth's family or close friends to see the things that were posted there yesterday.

I am really pleased that COHVCO and the BLM, people here at NAXJA and people like myself from CO4X4 have been able to make this memorial to Seth possible. I would hope that this is something that could continue for others in our sport and community and something that would make us a closer group not tear it apart.

[Frank Z]

I'll let ya know.

[ColoradoRaptor]

[QUOTE=Sound_Man;244904785]I feel as though COHVCO and the BLM dropped the ball on letting people know that this was going to happen. They should have been on top of it and let the wheeling community and the family know that this was going to happen. [QUOTE]

X2

[Kiefer316]

Holy crap. I really hate to hear stuff like this happen. Bull shit if you ask me. The least Val coulda done was send a pm with a link and an explination of what was going to happen and when. Not that difficult.

[in4aride]

Ya know. As a yahoo user I had to pay to join co4x4. And as they keep editi g and deleting my posts it's really starting to piss me off. I told em to man up and tell me why they are doi g it as nothing I post is in violation of board rules or to give me my cash back. What a bunch of spineless XXXXXXs over there to edit shit and shoulder it to avoid any type of confrontation. Arrrgggggg.

[XJNOOB93]

Good thing we aren't co4x4.. or what you just said Mike would have been deleted :laugh3:

[Hypoid]

Ya know. As a yahoo user I had to pay to join co4x4. I thought about setting up an email through my ISP, closest I got to joining that board.

[Frank Z]

FWIW,
Time to move on I think, can't change it now.

[planefixer]

FWIW,
Time to move on I think, can't change it now.

This!!




:cheers:

[old_man]

Just for the record, here is the reply I got from COHVCO about the Seth Stanton Memorial.


Tom, here is what I found out from Corey, and it pretty much confirms the remarks to you contained in my reply of Saturday, May 31st.

The arrangement between COHVCO and Val Douglas, representing the 4WD community was that COHVCO would provide a memorial stone in appreciation of the donations received by the Seth Stanton Memorial Fund (at least $3365.00 to COHVCO in late 2006 and early 2007). Corey Corbett took care of getting the Stone engraved and turned it over to Val back in what appears to have been March 2008 based on the date on a photo of the stone that Corey took. Val would then coordinate with the Colorado Chapter of the North American XJ Assn to get it mounted somewhere up in the mountains along side some 4x4 Route in Colorado.

That is the last involvement that COHVCO had until last week when Val left Corey a phone message saying that he (Corey) would hear some flack about the fact that she had installed the Memorial stone without checking with the NAXJA and "they can kiss my butt" as nobody would do anything about it and she got stuck with the stone, so she went ahead and put it up last Saturday. She said she could not get a hold of them as she has "been banned from their site" and it WAS posted to Colorado 4x4... or something to that effect.

The quotes are, according to Corey, verbatim, and I will say again that Val Douglas is currently not an official spokesperson or representative for
COHVCO. However, I believe that she did serve COHVCO in some capacity in 2006 or earlier.

I am disappointed that the tribute to Seth did not happen as his friends would have preferred, but as I indicated in my response to your email, having provided a monument in acknowledgment of the donations to COHVCO, we felt it would be more appropriate for those friends in the 4WD community that knew Seth to complete the arrangements for any memorial service that they would want to provide. On that basis, COHVCO stepped back from any further involvement. Also, I don't believe that, at that time, there was any active member of the Colorado Association of Four Wheel Drive Clubs on COHVCO's Board of Directors. Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions or would like additional information.


Glenn Graham
President & Chairman of the Board
Colorado Off-Highway Vehicle Coalition

[Frank Z]

Speechless.....

[.40CalPatriot]

That email made my head hurt. I had to read it three times.:wierd:

[xj-grin]

Thanks for the confirmation of what we all thought was going on, Tom. Understanding that they had some issues and seated a new bunch of directors, it is sad that COHVCO let someone no longer associated with them offend much of the 4x4 community in their name... That said, I can't wait to get down there with you fellas and toast (proverbially of course) Seth and his family.

[ColoradoRaptor]

Speechless.....

X1,000,000........................................ ..................

[NW-ZJ-SCOTT]

Someone needs to make another memorial stone.. This one should be for Val.

[Hypoid]

"kiss my butt"

Now thats-a-way to make new friends and influence people! I feel influenced anyway.

[SurfXJSnow]

"Killed in the line of duty"? what happened? Was he a police officer, or did he die wheeling? The way the plaque reads, it almost sounds like he died wheeling. No disrespect, just trying to get the story straight.

[xj-grin]

here ya go, Surf. PFC Stanton has his own FORUM, at NAXJA.:peace:

http://www.naxja.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=173

and: http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=900909&highlight=stanton (not sure I can read it again)

and: http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=928207&highlight=stanton

[Apostle]

"Killed in the line of duty"? what happened? Was he a police officer, or did he die wheeling? The way the plaque reads, it almost sounds like he died wheeling. No disrespect, just trying to get the story straight.

Military

[SurfXJSnow]

speechless...

this is why I am honored to know you guys... big tires, big hearts :us:

[freerider15]

I'm sorry this post isn't exactly related to Seth's plaque...but...

Have any of you SEEN what the exit to Patriot on Indy looks like now!?!?!

SO unbelievably furious as to the utter HACK JOB on the exit...with exposed rebar...and a rediculous stacking job :smsoap:

Can I adopt the trail to help keep it the way it WAS!

So much for keeping hard trails...HARD!!!

[Frank Z]

From what I understand the exit was damn near impossible for even extremely overbuilt rigs and was getting worse.

[in4aride]

Well yes and no frank. Saw plenty or guys drive out it. And now even with it stacked saw so e buggies on 42's struggling. Appears that if ya suck at driving havin a built ass rig won't help ya out the exit. From what I saw. If you can drive out bunker hill you can drive out the exit. Bunker hill looked harder than the exit. I'm with denard on this one. I think they destroyed it and itneeds to be re repaired. But that's just me.

[ColoradoRaptor]

From what I understand the exit was damn near impossible for even extremely overbuilt rigs and was getting worse.

That is correct Frank, it was becoming impossibe even for the over built buggies! I have to agree with the repair work that was done as the exit is still fairly difficult. I do however think that a better job could have been done!! I have lived with Indy in my backyard for a long time! I was here when it was opened and I can say that the exit has without a doubt gotten really bad!

[freerider15]

From what I understand the exit was damn near impossible for even extremely overbuilt rigs and was getting worse.

Well yes and no frank. Saw plenty or guys drive out it. And now even with it stacked saw so e buggies on 42's struggling. Appears that if ya suck at driving havin a built ass rig won't help ya out the exit. From what I saw. If you can drive out bunker hill you can drive out the exit. Bunker hill looked harder than the exit. I'm with denard on this one. I think they destroyed it and itneeds to be re repaired. But that's just me.

That is correct Frank, it was becoming impossibe even for the over built buggies! I have to agree with the repair work that was done as the exit is still fairly difficult. I do however think that a better job could have been done!! I have lived with Indy in my backyard for a long time! I was here when it was opened and I can say that the exit has without a doubt gotten really bad!

I don't think the exit was THAT bad. I've been on trails with exits FAR worse than Indy's, but they keep it that way for a reason. As Mike said...I've seen rigs drive out it before. Its not meant to be driven by a midly XJ on 35's (though I got mine about 3/4 the way out), its mean for a pretty well built rig, with someone behind the wheel with driving skill and some balls willing to risk rolling...its the nature of our sport.

I saw a Twisted Customs buggy drive out it like it was absolutely nothing, on 37's to boot. I've known guys who've run the whole trail in less than 5 minutes...

Sorry but to me there are some things that should just be left alone...this was one of them :dunno:

[YELLAHEEP]

Part of the problem is the huge catch-22 that trail maintenance creates......

If you let it get that difficult to get OUT...... rigs break, fluids spill, the trail becomes polluted and arguements are made to close it.

Make it easier, it's easier to keep it open, more folks get to enjoy it...... but more use creates more litter, more wear and tear....... and more trail maintenance.

Did they ever add a good winch point at the top of the exit anywhere? The two times I've run it, we were using an old stump for a winch point. If a good winch point existed before the "repair" then I think they should have left the exit as it was.

When I saw those repair pics, I assumed the rocks secured with rebar were foundation rocks...... I figured they'd be putting rocks OVER the rebar, not leaving it exposed.

Wonder how long it'll be before someone with a portable torch or a grinder removes that rebar....... :rolleyes:

Regardless......... I still wanna get down there and give it a try. :thumbup:

[ColoradoRaptor]

I don't think the exit was THAT bad. I've been on trails with exits FAR worse than Indy's, but they keep it that way for a reason. As Mike said...I've seen rigs drive out it before. Its not meant to be driven by a midly XJ on 35's (though I got mine about 3/4 the way out), its mean for a pretty well built rig, with someone behind the wheel with driving skill and some balls willing to risk rolling...its the nature of our sport.

I saw a Twisted Customs buggy drive out it like it was absolutely nothing, on 37's to boot. I've known guys who've run the whole trail in less than 5 minutes...

Sorry but to me there are some things that should just be left alone...this was one of them :dunno:

Ok.......... some us or I should say most of us do not have the Super Duper Pooper Scooper Extra Fabulous Wonferful Buggy that can climb the Empire State Building idling in 5th gear! I am glad Mr. COOL in the Twisted Customs drove out the exit like it was not even there........ Impressed I am not. The trail would not exist if it were not for a group of dedicated people that accepted responsibility for it! Politics are a pain in the butt to deal with and some times compromises have to be made! Some may say that Indy in no longer difficult....... I call BS! For most of the offroad community it is plenty hard. For those that build these super buggy things.... stop the whining and enjoy the fact that the trail is open for you to use! Better yet build a mild vehicle and enjoy pushing it's limits!

[in4aride]

Troy I agree. A super hard exit makes it likely to break big rigs. But let's be real. Compared to the exit the rest of the trail wasn't that bad. Now guys will see the exit and try to take smaller rigs thro patriot. Breaking more often. And now you have Joe shmoe and all his trash and fluids spilling over the trail. I'm waiti g for people to go 'fix' the cactus trails. Or start repairing Moab trails cuz it's too hard. I think they can piss off withthe 'fixes'. Cleanin up trash and debris is a great idea for the trails. Leaving a bunch of potentially dangerous rebar exposed for high horsepower big tire rigs to drive on is the most half assed thing I think I've ever seen. I mean we might as well pave trails now. They did it to slaughterhouse basically. It's just plain obnoxious.

[in4aride]

And on another note. A hard trail should not be paved so dingleberry smith can take his yj on 32's and open/open thro it. He should stick to the trails his drivi g and rig can handle. Can't run patriot? Good. Stay the eff off of it. Do t ruin it for the guys tryi g to go bigger and harder. That's like making a drag strip down hil. With a wind at your back sothe slow cars can go faster. It's stupid. Pointless. Half ass. And annoying.

[xj-grin]

You're right, Mike, but I think Troy's point is that ENTRY obstacles serve the purpose of keeping the stupid and underequipped off of trails like Patriot, while EXIT obstacles encourage them to get stuck on the trail and get it closed for everyone... Maybe NAXJA should try and get some authorization to construct a wicked entry obstacle (and fix the naked rebar issues - which is just plain dangerous -- on the exit)...

[in4aride]

I think entry obsticles sound like a kick ass idea. That first hill isn't a breeze but it's not impossible either. The rebar situation defi itely needs to be handled. Without a doubt

[.40CalPatriot]

And on another note. A hard trail should not be paved so dingleberry smith can take his yj on 32's and open/open thro it. He should stick to the trails his drivi g and rig can handle. Can't run patriot? Good. Stay the eff off of it. Do t ruin it for the guys tryi g to go bigger and harder. That's like making a drag strip down hil. With a wind at your back sothe slow cars can go faster. It's stupid. Pointless. Half ass. And annoying.

Hey now! That better be a dig at YJ people and not people like myself with 32's and open diffs!:banghead:

[ColoradoRaptor]

And on another note. A hard trail should not be paved so dingleberry smith can take his yj on 32's and open/open thro it. He should stick to the trails his drivi g and rig can handle. Can't run patriot? Good. Stay the eff off of it. Do t ruin it for the guys tryi g to go bigger and harder. That's like making a drag strip down hil. With a wind at your back sothe slow cars can go faster. It's stupid. Pointless. Half ass. And annoying.

If Dingleberry wants to attemp the trail then let him! I have seen it first hand..... funny to say the least! It is the overkill buggies that have jacked the trail up, not mr dingleberry! The buggies dug it out and moved rocks that were there in the first place! The exit was only restored to what it was like in the beginning with the rebar holding it fast. I agree that they should have covered it or done it different! This whole paving the trails thing is funny.......... Indy is not paved w/ the repair! If you want to complain about paving have a look at what used to be the V-Notch on Chinamans.......... SAD!!!!!!

[in4aride]

The v notch on chinamans is another perfect example. Numnuts couldn't make it so they 'fixed' the situation.

[Rockken]

The v notch is still there, your not forced to take that line because that rock moved. However, you can still take that line if you wish. Also did someone move that rock or did it fall from people running into it?

[in4aride]

If I remember right it was moved to the side I tentionally

[freerider15]

Ok.......... some us or I should say most of us do not have the Super Duper Pooper Scooper Extra Fabulous Wonferful Buggy that can climb the Empire State Building idling in 5th gear! I am glad Mr. COOL in the Twisted Customs drove out the exit like it was not even there........ Impressed I am not. The trail would not exist if it were not for a group of dedicated people that accepted responsibility for it! Politics are a pain in the butt to deal with and some times compromises have to be made! Some may say that Indy in no longer difficult....... I call BS! For most of the offroad community it is plenty hard. For those that build these super buggy things.... stop the whining and enjoy the fact that the trail is open for you to use! Better yet build a mild vehicle and enjoy pushing it's limits!

If Dingleberry wants to attemp the trail then let him! I have seen it first hand..... funny to say the least! It is the overkill buggies that have jacked the trail up, not mr dingleberry! The buggies dug it out and moved rocks that were there in the first place! The exit was only restored to what it was like in the beginning with the rebar holding it fast. I agree that they should have covered it or done it different! This whole paving the trails thing is funny.......... Indy is not paved w/ the repair! If you want to complain about paving have a look at what used to be the V-Notch on Chinamans.......... SAD!!!!!!

I'm sorry but you and I live in two COMPLETELY different worlds of four wheeling. Super duper buggy? Maybe, i don't see it like that. Some people ENJOY building super dooper pooper scooper rigs, and them PUSHING THEM. Its easy for someone like you to say that, since thats NOT your realm of wheeling.

You saying that about Indy, to me is NO different than someone filling in the V-notch on Chinamans, or filling in any other point on that trail for that matter. There is a REASON Indy is/was rated a 10...it was meant to be fukking HARD. Sorry but your posts to me seem totally hypocritical about trail "maintenance." From your reasoning it seems that every trail in Colorado should be passable by a mildly built rig on 35's :rolleyes:

How would you feel if Chinamans was made passable, and I mean every optional line of it,
by a rig on 31's?

Take a look at Little Sluice on the Rubicon. It used to be passable on a friggin' Ford Model-T...now its a boulder field requiring a rather well built rig to pass. I guarantee if you decided to do on Little Sluice what has been done to Indy...people would be out for blood, seriously.

I agree with Troy about breaking and stuff happening, but to me at the same time its part of the sport. Can't make it and break? Rig then needs to evolve to meet the trail, not the trail evolve to meet the rig.

[in4aride]

Rig then needs to evolve to meet the trail, not the trail evolve to meet the rig.




Amen to that!!!!!! Can't be said any better!!!

[Apostle]

would build a super dooper pooper scooper rig, if i had the money. as it stands my rig is my DD, so while you all are going over rocks, ill take the road more traveled :)



with mike going first so he can winch me out if i get stuck again

[in4aride]

Mine is a dd too......

[YELLAHEEP]

I agree with Troy about breaking and stuff happening, but to me at the same time its part of the sport. Can't make it and break? Rig then needs to evolve to meet the trail, not the trail evolve to meet the rig.


Just to clear things up, I'm not agreeing with the "compromise" of fixing a trail to help eliminate breakage and trail damage. I was just offering that up as the compromise that our sport and the BLM requires us all to make in order to keep the greenies happy.

My personal feeling about trails like Indy, Cactus, Carnage and the like is absolutely leave them alone as they evolve. They're all such a microscopic bits of land that I truely don't see how our sport is contributing to eco-damage on any significant scale. I've never seen any real proof that's shown any one trail that's killed fish, scared off the wildlife, killed a forrest of trees, or poluted a river...... That's my feeling about Moab as well. If you do one of those satellite images of the area of Moab, then zoom out to be able to see the entire united states..... how much land is being destroyed in the entire scope of things. The logging industry has caused more damage in one area of a rain forest larger than the damage caused in 100 square miles of Moab trails....... :rolleyes:

But I digress........ :D

[ColoradoRaptor]

I'm sorry but you and I live in two COMPLETELY different worlds of four wheeling. Super duper buggy? Maybe, i don't see it like that. Some people ENJOY building super dooper pooper scooper rigs, and them PUSHING THEM. Its easy for someone like you to say that, since thats NOT your realm of wheeling.

You saying that about Indy, to me is NO different than someone filling in the V-notch on Chinamans, or filling in any other point on that trail for that matter. There is a REASON Indy is/was rated a 10...it was meant to be fukking HARD. Sorry but your posts to me seem totally hypocritical about trail "maintenance." From your reasoning it seems that every trail in Colorado should be passable by a mildly built rig on 35's :rolleyes:

How would you feel if Chinamans was made passable, and I mean every optional line of it,
by a rig on 31's?

Take a look at Little Sluice on the Rubicon. It used to be passable on a friggin' Ford Model-T...now its a boulder field requiring a rather well built rig to pass. I guarantee if you decided to do on Little Sluice what has been done to Indy...people would be out for blood, seriously.

I agree with Troy about breaking and stuff happening, but to me at the same time its part of the sport. Can't make it and break? Rig then needs to evolve to meet the trail, not the trail evolve to meet the rig.


You are right, we are in two different realms of wheeling! You prefer to take the challenge out of most trail systems in the world by building a vehicle that has little problem navigating them. In the process your super built rig destroys the trails for us old school wheelers by digging them out! Indy was a 10 in the beginning and before the fix it was all but impassable lest you have a billion dollar rig! I for one get tired of the overbuilt tube things destroying stuff I used to find enjoyable and challenging in a well built daily driver! I appaud you for what you are doing, it is some awesome work but your idea of trail evolution is selfish! I can now drive Indy, a 10 and actually make the exit again because that is the way it was and should be! The V-notch on Chinamans was just the opposite of the Indy exit as they moved a rock that had been there from the beginning! This is a tragedy because they took the vertical slab, moved it filled in the notch turning it into a dirt road...............:cry:

[YELLAHEEP]

Ok, brace yourselves....... I kinda agree with 'Raptor to a degree..... :eek:

:D

I have to admit..... as cool as the $70K wicked tube, 700 hp, Rockwell axle'd, on 42's buggy can be..... watching them throw those rigs at the hardcore obstacles using nothing but brute force and throttle throwing debris and parts everywhere....... does indeed defeat the purpose.

However, I know Justin and he's not building his rig to tear anything up. I know he's building a rig that will handle the most challenging of technical crawls. Justin likes to think into his approach, hates tire spin.... and broken parts. But he certainly loves a challenge..... as do the majority of us in the hardcore realm. So, yeah, it's kinda unfair to say Justin's building a trail-destroying buggy. Ain't nuthin' further from the truth. I imagine he's looking to build something that'll damn-near defy gravity and make everyone's jaw drop in disbelief as they say "I can't believe that thing got up that...."

Am I right Waterboy? :D

To be perfectly honest...... I'd have to give serious consideration in supporting legislation that limits the horsepower/torque of off road rigs. Under the right considerations and limitations of course, but it'd kinda make sense to me........ Enforcing that would be a total nightmare though..... :rolleyes:

[JJacobs]

I haven't seen the recent 'damage' to Indy up close and personal.

I can assure you, though, at the trail's inception it was passable by an XJ on 35's. Is it now? Probably not.

[freerider15]

You are right, we are in two different realms of wheeling!

Well...at least you're correct here

You prefer to take the challenge out of most trail systems in the world by building a vehicle that has little problem navigating them.

Sorry you assume that, and there are PLENTY of trails in this nation that will still easily deny mine once its done...I prefer to wheel and not break, as I build my rig to be able to handle the trails I choose.

In the process your super built rig destroys the trails for us old school wheelers by digging them out!

You saying that, is the equivalent to the greenies saying that ALL of us four wheelers destroy EVERYTHING. Since I've started running with a more "built" crowd...I've actually seen LESS destruction to the trails while wheeling than that of when I was around a more mildly built crowd

Indy was a 10 in the beginning and before the fix it was all but impassable lest you have a billion dollar rig!

I've seen a $5k rig drive through it (Toyota)...doesn't take a $$$$ rig to make a well built rig. It was a 10, it should stay a 10 ;)



Ok, brace yourselves....... I kinda agree with 'Raptor to a degree..... :eek:

You shuddup Troy! :D

:D

I have to admit..... as cool as the $70K wicked tube, 700 hp, Rockwell axle'd, on 42's buggy can be..... watching them throw those rigs at the hardcore obstacles using nothing but brute force and throttle throwing debris and parts everywhere....... does indeed defeat the purpose.

However, I know Justin and he's not building his rig to tear anything up. I know he's building a rig that will handle the most challenging of technical crawls. Justin likes to think into his approach, hates tire spin.... and broken parts. But he certainly loves a challenge..... as do the majority of us in the hardcore realm. So, yeah, it's kinda unfair to say Justin's building a trail-destroying buggy. Ain't nuthin' further from the truth. I imagine he's looking to build something that'll damn-near defy gravity and make everyone's jaw drop in disbelief as they say "I can't believe that thing got up that...."

Am I right Waterboy? :D

To be perfectly honest...... I'd have to give serious consideration in supporting legislation that limits the horsepower/torque of off road rigs. Under the right considerations and limitations of course, but it'd kinda make sense to me........ Enforcing that would be a total nightmare though..... :rolleyes:

Troy has it most spot on for how I wheel. I'm not trying to be an elitest and I know its how i'll sound, but some of the trails I've been on, walked, seen, etc. make Indy look like chinamans comparatively...which 90% of the people on these forums will never get remotely close to (look the type of trails what Dave, Goat, and those guys wheel...fun stuff!). I'm building mine to wheel stuff like that, as that is what gets MY adrenaline going, where as some others are happy with simply a dirt road, all in personal preference. I just like to keep some of the challenge in CO, challenging...

For me the stacking of Indy is no different than the stacking of Chinamans to others, just different trails on a different level of wheeling...

SEPARATE BUT EQUAL!!! :D

[ColoradoRaptor]

Ok, brace yourselves....... I kinda agree with 'Raptor to a degree..... :eek:

:D

I have to admit..... as cool as the $70K wicked tube, 700 hp, Rockwell axle'd, on 42's buggy can be..... watching them throw those rigs at the hardcore obstacles using nothing but brute force and throttle throwing debris and parts everywhere....... does indeed defeat the purpose.

However, I know Justin and he's not building his rig to tear anything up. I know he's building a rig that will handle the most challenging of technical crawls. Justin likes to think into his approach, hates tire spin.... and broken parts. But he certainly loves a challenge..... as do the majority of us in the hardcore realm. So, yeah, it's kinda unfair to say Justin's building a trail-destroying buggy. Ain't nuthin' further from the truth. I imagine he's looking to build something that'll damn-near defy gravity and make everyone's jaw drop in disbelief as they say "I can't believe that thing got up that...."

Am I right Waterboy? :D

To be perfectly honest...... I'd have to give serious consideration in supporting legislation that limits the horsepower/torque of off road rigs. Under the right considerations and limitations of course, but it'd kinda make sense to me........ Enforcing that would be a total nightmare though..... :rolleyes:

I am feeling like Fred Sanford now............ :gee: Well put Troy!

[ColoradoRaptor]

Troy has it most spot on for how I wheel. I'm not trying to be an elitest and I know its how i'll sound, but some of the trails I've been on, walked, seen, etc. make Indy look like chinamans comparatively...which 90% of the people on these forums will never get remotely close to (look the type of trails what Dave, Goat, and those guys wheel...fun stuff!). I'm building mine to wheel stuff like that, as that is what gets MY adrenaline going, where as some others are happy with simply a dirt road, all in personal preference. I just like to keep some of the challenge in CO, challenging...

For me the stacking of Indy is no different than the stacking of Chinamans to others, just different trails on a different level of wheeling...

SEPARATE BUT EQUAL!!! :D

I admit it Justin, I did over dramatize your build a bit..... You could say I am a bit jelous of all the tube! I have been wanting to exo my Junk for a while but my X and the divorce left me in a crappy situation... to say the least! You are doing some top notch work! I just ask that you not be one of those buggy guys that tear a good trail to bits...... :patriot:

[xj-grin]

To be perfectly honest...... I'd have to give serious consideration in supporting legislation that limits the horsepower/torque of off road rigs. Under the right considerations and limitations of course, but it'd kinda make sense to me........ Enforcing that would be a total nightmare though..... :rolleyes:

Put down the crack-pipe, Troy. Regulation of what free people can/cannot drive is the answer to absolutely nothing, and you know it.:cheers:

[YELLAHEEP]

Put down the crack-pipe, Troy. Regulation of what free people can/cannot drive is the answer to absolutely nothing, and you know it.:cheers:

Yeah, I was just talking outta my keester there......... pay no attention to the blabber-mouth. :twak: