Installing a T&J customs cage

[jeeperjohn]

So Souske needed a cage installed and he asked me if I could weld it in. I told him I've never done one before but I was willing to give 'er a try. The following pics show the project. It took about 10 hours of labor and came out pretty well.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa231/jeeperjohn/DSCF1627.jpg

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[jeeperjohn]

More pix

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa231/jeeperjohn/DSCF1638.jpg

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[jeeperjohn]

#3
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[jeeperjohn]

#4
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[jeeperjohn]

#5
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All in all it went pretty well. It fit well with only a little trimming. I think it is a well made kit and I would buy one if I could afford it. It looked pretty awesome installed.

[AJTorris]

so is the cage a bolt in cage? or did you weld it to the floor too?

[AL BUNDY]

Looks pretty awesome to me!

[jeeperjohn]

so is the cage a bolt in cage? or did you weld it to the floor too?
You bolt in the floor plates and weld the tubes to them.

[crazyjim]

T&J!!!!!!!!! T&T could never make the quality of parts T&J does, pffffft.

[justin_502]

I never seen a cage welded in yet, do you weld it out of the car where you can get all the way around the tube? Or just weld the sections you can reach inside the car?

[GrimmJeeper]

I never seen a cage welded in yet, do you weld it out of the car where you can get all the way around the tube? Or just weld the sections you can reach inside the car?

ALL cages should be fully welded, a half welded cage is just plain unsafe. if by some chance you are in a rollover situation and the cage buckles or splits apart because it was not welded all the way around, it becomes sharp heavy steel flying around your head. :gee:

[souske]

JeeperJohn: Is there anything he cant do?


Thanks alot John I had a blast! I doubt painting it will be nearly as fun.

Yes Its a T&J kit. Everything mostly went together out of the box with minimal fitting required.

[Paul Airhart]

I never seen a cage welded in yet, do you weld it out of the car where you can get all the way around the tube? Or just weld the sections you can reach inside the car?

I agree, Grimm. And wanted to ask the same Q. How did you get all the way around it? I have been trying to figure that out.Did you stick weld and curve the rod to get in there? Inquiring minds want to know. :lecture:

[GrimmJeeper]

most people put holes in the floor and lower the cage, weld all the way around, then raise it back up and patch/cover the holes.

[Paul Airhart]

Makes sense. Who makes an affordable 1.75" weld in, that you would trust your life to? Thanks!

[GrimmJeeper]

Makes sense. Who makes an affordable 1.75" weld in, that you would trust your life to? Thanks!

T&J Performance is a NAXJA Sponsor, and thier cage is a decent starter. Seems like the go fast people add a couple extra braces here and there to beef it up but it should be more than enough for crawling.
http://tandjperformance.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25_43&products_id=8

[Paul Airhart]

Thanks, Mike!

[silverslk]

I'll say it again. It's a decent cage but is HREW. Most prefer DOM and they offer it in DOM it's just a bit more money.

[xcm]

T&J!!!!!!!!! T&T could never make the quality of parts T&J does, pffffft.

fanboy?!?

[crazyjim]

fanboy?!?
Indeed.

[crazyjim]

T&J Performance is a NAXJA Sponsor, and thier cage is a decent starter. Seems like the go fast people add a couple extra braces here and there to beef it up but it should be more than enough for crawling.
http://tandjperformance.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25_43&products_id=8

They also make a racer cage with a bit better bracing for go fast, just no coverage for the back.

I'll say it again. It's a decent cage but is HREW. Most prefer DOM and they offer it in DOM it's just a bit more money.

HREW is fine... NUMEROUS guys have flipped HARD in the desert and been kept completely safe. I'm not saying DOM isn't a superior material, but cage design matters a WHOLE lot more than cage material. And with added bracing etc, I'm confident the cage will save my ass when I need it to.

[jeeperjohn]

I agree, Grimm. And wanted to ask the same Q. How did you get all the way around it? I have been trying to figure that out.Did you stick weld and curve the rod to get in there? Inquiring minds want to know. :lecture:
I fully welded the joints on the front part of the cage by taking out the rear bars and leaning the front section down in the back. In the future I will cut holes in the floor and lower the whole cage down to weld it. It was a great learning experience for me and I have confidence in the strength and design of this cage. My apologies to T&J about getting the name wrong. I would like to buy one of these cages with a few options to satisfy my needs.

[Paul Airhart]

I fully welded the joints on the front part of the cage by taking out the rear bars and leaning the front section down in the back. In the future I will cut holes in the floor and lower the whole cage down to weld it. It was a great learning experience for me and I have confidence in the strength and design of this cage. My apologies to T&J about getting the name wrong. I would like to buy one of these cages with a few options to satisfy my needs.

Thanks, John. I will do the same. Looks like the plate's will easily cover a 1.75-2.0" hole,weld them in place, then I'll use undercoating to seal any raw metal from below. :read: I learn something new everyday, but this one will be useful.

[silverslk]

They also make a racer cage with a bit better bracing for go fast, just no coverage for the back.



HREW is fine... NUMEROUS guys have flipped HARD in the desert and been kept completely safe. I'm not saying DOM isn't a superior material, but cage design matters a WHOLE lot more than cage material. And with added bracing etc, I'm confident the cage will save my ass when I need it to.

HREW is for bumpers. haha:laugh3:

[crazyjim]

HREW is for bumpers. haha:laugh3:
:laugh: why did I know you'd say that ;) :D

[silverslk]

:laugh: why did I know you'd say that ;) :D

It was either that or "COME GET YOUR HEADER PANEL OUT OF MY GARAGE" :laugh3:

[jeeperjohn]

HREW is fine... NUMEROUS guys have flipped HARD in the desert and been kept completely safe. I'm not saying DOM isn't a superior material, but cage design matters a WHOLE lot more than cage material. And with added bracing etc, I'm confident the cage will save my ass when I need it to.
I lack the experience to speak authoritatively on this subject but I agree with Jim, HREW is a good material for all but the most demanding uses. For those who feel it is not strong enough, many people use DOM for the main hoops of a cage and HREW for the cross supports and other secondary supports. I don't know the actual numbers of the difference in strength but I don't think it's a huge difference.

[GrimmJeeper]

DOM vs HREW
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=60158.msg741060#msg741060

the material itself is more important than the process used to form it.

[Paul Airhart]

What a interesting read. So you can pay more for less, or pay less for more.

[Monkey55]

Way to John..

What welder did you use?

I would love to learn how to weld a cage & bumpers. I wonder if my Lincoln Weld-Pak 100 would be able to handle the job.

E

[Paul Airhart]

I welded up a set of sliders for builder with a small wire feed, no gas. He wheels that truck and as far as I know he has had no issues.

[jeeperjohn]

Way to John..

What welder did you use?

I would love to learn how to weld a cage & bumpers. I wonder if my Lincoln Weld-Pak 100 would be able to handle the job.

E
I used a Craftsman 110V wire feeder supplied by a 40 amp circuit on full power. The welder was set at 105 amps current and about 3.8 IPF feed speed. I used Argon/C02 mix gas.

[silverslk]

DOM vs HREW
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=60158.msg741060#msg741060

the material itself is more important than the process used to form it.

Grimm, that thread only discusses "dent resistance" not overall strength. One might care if there bumper won't dent but I am more worried about failure of a cage not dents in a cage. A DOM cage will bend just like HREW the difference is complete failure. I guess one could argue design would be a great factor in that but material is also a consideration. Notice they say that when bending HREW to keep the seem inside the bend (this is a common practice).

[silverslk]

Here is a even better discussion. It actually discusses strengths vs "dent resistance".

http://www.tamor.org/forums/showthread.php?t=690

[jeeperjohn]

Notice they say that when bending HREW to keep the seem inside the bend (this is a common practice).
Is this done out of necessity? Have you ever seen HREW split at the seam? I'm not questioning your assertion just curious.

[SanDiegoOverland]

I think I'd like a cage like this, but I'm worried about passenger contact with the bars. Specifically driver and passenger in the front...

any thoughts on this? I'm a big guy who has to put his seat a bit further back than most.

thanks!

oh, and would someone (John?) PM some pricing info for out the door, drop off without a cage, pickup with one installed...:)

[jeeperjohn]

So looking around at discussions on the HREW vs DOM debate, there seems to be alot of sentiment for both sides of the debate. I see it like this:
If you want/need a cage and you are poor like I am, you will be many times safer with an HREW cage than without (assuming it is well designed and properly welded). Granted, all things being equal, the DOM cage would be stronger in several important ways. If I felt I needed a cage but could not afford DOM, I would not hesitate to buy the HREW. The HREW is not enough weaker than DOM to make me go without any protection until I could afford DOM.
I would like to see some real world camparisons of similar vehicles equipped with both types of cages that have been rolled to see how they compare in the real world. Anybody?

[silverslk]

So looking around at discussions on the HREW vs DOM debate, there seems to be alot of sentiment for both sides of the debate. I see it like this:
If you want/need a cage and you are poor like I am, you will be many times safer with an HREW cage than without (assuming it is well designed and properly welded). Granted, all things being equal, the DOM cage would be stronger in several important ways. If I felt I needed a cage but could not afford DOM, I would not hesitate to buy the HREW. The HREW is not enough weaker than DOM to make me go without any protection until I could afford DOM.
I would like to see some real world camparisons of similar vehicles equipped with both types of cages that have been rolled to see how they compare in the real world. Anybody?

I agree with you John. I never said HREW was unsafe just for a bit more you could have DOM. HREW has proven itself able to withstand blows and roll overs, no doubt. Hellbilly built that cage for CDS36 (Craig) out of HREW and when he rolled it held up great (I think more due to design and welding rather than material). I have some emails into friends who have been around a while and am trying ti find pictures of HREW failure as a result of strength not design. The thing that I think about is not only will it hold up if I flop or roll off road (slow speed) but what happens on road (freeway speed) driving to and from wheeling as well.

[Mike L]

I'll say it again. It's a decent cage but is HREW. Most prefer DOM and they offer it in DOM it's just a bit more money.

Are you sure? I only see one XJ cage listed on their site and according to Tom it is DOM. Read the description HERE (http://tandjperformance.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25_43&products_id=8)

1984 to 2001 Cherokee Interior Chassis Stiffener kit (Race Style not shown). This kit is the perfect starter kit whether you are racing a JeepSpeed or going slow wheeling. Our system is made of 1.75 x 1.20 wall cold roll tubing and consists of (2) A pillars, (1) B hoop, (1) windshield bar, (2) diagonal kickers, (2) side impact bars and (12) floor mounting plates. For you serious offroaders we recommend our Rock Crawler Style System, which incorporates full front to back protection. This system includes (2) A-pillars, (2) B-pillars, (2) C-pillars, (2) D-pillars, (2) diagonal kickers, and all mounting hardware.

Sounds like DOM to me.

[crazyjim]

Are you sure? I only see one XJ cage listed on their site and according to Tom it is DOM. Read the description HERE (http://tandjperformance.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25_43&products_id=8)



Sounds like DOM to me.
It's CREW then, not HREW, but definitely still not DOM. DOM is "Drawn Over Mandrel"

The CREW is "Cold Roll Electro Welded" which is what the T&J cage is, you can see the seam from the weld. Again, I trust my life with it, but it's not DOM. DOM, HREW, and CREW are all just processes of forming the metal, the type of material is what makes or breaks it. DOM is often used in place of saying "DOM 1020 mild carbon steel" but HREW and CREW are usually also 1020 or 1018, the norm. Chromoly is still a DOM but is 4130.

[crazyjim]

Also to give you an idea:


DOM 1020:
Tensile strength (ksi) 80
Yield point (ksi) 70
Elongation (% in 2") 15
Rockwell hardness RB80


CREW 1018:
Tensile strength (ksi) 80
Yield point (ksi) 60
Elongation (% in 2") 15
Rockwell hardness RB88




So again, materials wise they're similar, the only worry with a CREW cage is splitting the seem, which again, if designed properly will not be a concern on a cage.

[Paul Airhart]

Seamless Tube.
This is expensive and specialized stuff. It IS NOT the commonly used (and misreferenced) DOM tubing, as DOM tubing does indeed have a seam (albeit, almost invisible - more details below). True seamless tubing is uncommon in 4x4 and automotive use. It is seamless because it is manufactured by a process know as "extrusion" where a solid bar of steel is pierced down the center with a die, at unthinkable pressures, to form a tube. The process looks similar to how hollow pasta (macaroni etc) is made. There are 2 sub-types of seamless tube:

Cold Drawn Seamless (CDS) Tube is normally drawn to O.D. and I.D. dimensions and produced to standard dimensional tolerances (this differs from most other types of tubing except DOM) . It is normally made from SAE 1018 and is considered good quality.
Hot Finished Seamless (HFS) Tube is lower in cost than cold drawn and most applicable where precise dimensions and surface quality are of secondary importance. It is manufactured to O.D. and wall dimensions from SAE 1026 steel and is scaly, less dependable and not as strong as cold drawn tube.

Electric Resistance Welded (ERW) Tube
ERW is the most economical and readily available type of mechanical tuning. It is produced by taking a flat bar of steel and rolling it into a tube shape (picture rolling up a newspaper - but without any overlap) and then welding the seam - by, you guessed it - electric resistance - hence the name. Electric resistance welding is somewhat like a long, continuous spot weld. It's often computer controlled and extremely consistent. ERW is normally SAE 1010 (for wall thickness < 16 ga) or SAE 1020. ERW tube comes in 2 flavours:

Hot Rolled ERW (HREW)
HREW is rolled into a tube at elevated temperatures, usually way above room temperature. This produces a tubing that is more malleable and therefore easier to form but that is also not as strong, is supplied covered with scale, and not as uniform in dimension as cold rolled. It is also quite a bit cheaper than cold rolled.

Cold Rolled ERW (CREW)
CREW is manufactured by a process in which a steel bar is rolled into a tube and the seam welded, usually at room temperature. Compared to hot rolled, CREW is stronger - (greater yield strength) - because of the improvement in the crystal lattice structure from improved grain size, shape, and orientation imparted by being worked at cold (room) temperatures), straighter, has a much smoother and more uniform surface finish, and is made to much tighter, more consistent dimensions. It is the best economical choice for tube work, and because of the better surface finish and tighter dimensional tolerances it is much nicer to work with than HREW.

Drawn Over Mandrel (DOM)
Strong and well-finished DOM is an electric resistance welded tube tested for soundness of weld and drawn through a die and over a mandrel. This process imparts significantly improved mechanical properties to the tube, due to the cold working process. It is considered a high quality tube, and is normally constructed from SAE 1020 or 1026 steel. Note that, technically DOM refers to the process by which the tube is finished after having started as an ERW tube. Technically, DOM is not a type of steel tube, but rather a process. As so often happen though - in common use the term has become accepted to mean a specific type of tubing rather than a process. In this case, when people say "DOM" they normally mean an ERW tube drawn over a mandrel at (close to) room temperature and made from SAE 1020 steel. It is normally drawn to O.D. and I.D. dimensions.

[scottmcneal]

Dude go to bed..You have way to much time on your hands

[djblade311]

My apologies to T&J about getting the name wrong. I would like to buy one of these cages with a few options to satisfy my needs.

fixed the thread title

[jeeperjohn]

fixed the thread title
Thanks Josh :thumbup: