Is E85 really a Con?

[Flip94ta]

Most of you will shout yes at my title because of the 30% loss in mileage for the 5% savings at the pump.

I think one of the biggest problems facing E85 is Flexfuel vehicles. Flexfuel is BS. Why build a motor to run on 87 octane and then tell people to go green and run it at 105 octane. All motors will lose mileage if this is done. weither is 87, 93, 105 or 116 octane. Yes I know that ethanol has less energy content than gasoline, but what if someone bulit a motor to run on just E85. You could go from 87 octane friendly 9.5 to one compression to E85 105 octane friendly 13 to 1.

The added torque and HP could probably offset half of the loss mileage and make E85 more competive at the pump. Too bad most folks don't have regular access to E85 pumps. There is just one here in nashville.

I am not sure how much interest there is in this with gas being $2 a gallon in most places.

Thoughts?

[BrettM]

-manufacturers can't justify building E85 only vehicles because the availability isn't high enough

-E85 suppliers can't justify expanding the availability if manufacturers aren't making E85 capable vehicles.

-Flexfuel vehicles solve both of these problems, and eventually when the availablity is high enough manufacturers will make E85 only vehicles.

[cumorglas]

but ultimately still a con, when you do the math. the total amount of energy put into the manufacture and even worse distribution does not justify what we get out of it.

even if we get the transportation cost down with a separate system of pipelines and related nonsense there is still the problem of transporting all that raw material to be fermented. the energy expenditure on that get progressively more ridiculous the further you get from the farm.

there is a reason these plants mostly operate in the corn belt and under HUGE subsidies.

[RBFab]

I think its all a matter of cuting ourselves off FOREIGN OIL.Who cares if it would cost a little more.Are we all really so greedy that we'll keep supporting crazy terrorist governments just to save a few bucks at the pump every fill-up?If so,we deserve what we get!!!

[Ghost]

I still think Hydrogen is the way to go. However a friend recently informed me that they main reason it is not being adapted and used is the manufacturing cost is a lot more then oil refining.

[vetteboy]

I think its all a matter of cuting ourselves off FOREIGN OIL.Who cares if it would cost a little more.Are we all really so greedy that we'll keep supporting crazy terrorist governments just to save a few bucks at the pump every fill-up?If so,we deserve what we get!!!

Wow, someone's a slave to the media...

[XJ Dreamin']

Ethanol is a stupid waste of energy :flame:








:D

[rock rash]

I still think Hydrogen is the way to go. However a friend recently informed me that they main reason it is not being adapted and used is the manufacturing cost is a lot more then oil refining.
Not entirely true...For oil, It must be drilled contained and shipped. Hydrogen, the main expense is to get a machine up and running. The machine uses solar energyt to seperate the hydrogen atoms from the oxygen in water...and it is completely renewable...I believe Hydrogen is the way to go, but oil companies and helpin with some "expenses" at automotive factories to help keep vehicles running on oil...

[IcedXJ]

Not entirely true...For oil, It must be drilled contained and shipped. Hydrogen, the main expense is to get a machine up and running. The machine uses solar energyt to seperate the hydrogen atoms from the oxygen in water...and it is completely renewable...I believe Hydrogen is the way to go, but oil companies and helpin with some "expenses" at automotive factories to help keep vehicles running on oil...
bingo

Hyrdogen is something that may not be used so widely ever as are typical fossil fuel is currently, but I am in full support to get that technology refined so H cars are cheaper.

[CRASH]

The success of all of these technologies hinges on one factor: market demand.

Produce a product that is cheaper to operate than dyno juice and produces comparable power and all of the production and distribution problems will disappear. The masses will beat a path to your door.

[XJ Dreamin']

The success of all of these technologies hinges on one factor: market demand.

Produce a product that is cheaper to operate than dyno juice and produces comparable power and all of the production and distribution problems will disappear. The masses will beat a path to your door.

That's it right there. Few things store as many BTU/lb as petroleum as cheaply as petroleum does. Historically, alcohol was proposed not to free us from foreign oil, and not to provide cheaper fuel, but to provide cleaner fuel (if you ignore the emmissions from distillation). It's not an energy saving process. It's intended to reduce smog in high congestion areas and, through DOE subsidies, support farmers who lost their Ag subsidies to Bush's cost cutting :D.

[CRASH]

support farmers who lost their Ag subsidies to Bush's cost cutting :D.

Almost, except that Bush re-upped the subsidies, post 9-11, that Clinton had phased out......

We almost had a free market economy on farm products in 2001, but alas, the mega powerful ag lobby greased the right palms.

[XJ Dreamin']

Almost, except that Bush re-upped the subsidies, post 9-11, that Clinton had phased out......

We almost had a free market economy on farm products in 2001, but alas, the mega powerful ag lobby greased the right palms.

Last I heard (few weeks ago on morning radio) farmers were bracing for a new round of cuts.

[CRASH]

If, by cuts, you mean a slight drop in the rate of increased cost of living and inflation adjustments, then yes, that could be true.

[XJ Dreamin']

If, by cuts, you mean a slight drop in the rate of increased cost of living and inflation adjustments, then yes, that could be true.

I don't know - it was early morning. One guy interviewed said he'd have to sell out if the proposed cuts went into effect.

edit: I checked back. I did put a smilie on that Bush comment - see new sig

edit: edit: earlier observation still applies:

Ethanol is a stupid waste of energy :flame:

[RichP]

Honda has a complete hydrogen system, car and generator that hangs on the wall of your garage, main issue is residual and repeat business. Sell the car and generator and thats it, no more trickle down, honda was trying to figure out how to lease the generator so they would get a monthly income generated but they quickly figured out that building an O2 generator is a home shop project, an O2 generator seperates Oxy and hydrogen, in the navys case we pump the hydrogen overboard as a dangerous waste product, submarines have been using the technology for over 40 years, unit is about the size of a small side by side refrigerator but thats typical govt design, could be alot smaller.

Iceland is about 80% hydrogen now as I remember, might be higher, in their transportation system. Hydrogen fueling stations are very common there.

[CW]

Brazil is over 90% ethanol now. Sure it took a military government to impose the new standards on people over the last decade or so, but it shows that it is possible. They are a nearly self contained energy curcuit now. Plants grown and refined in country. Our main problem is that it is not economically viable for farmers to grow crops for ethanol production while it is in the much poorer Brazil.

[RichP]

Brazil is over 90% ethanol now. Sure it took a military government to impose the new standards on people over the last decade or so, but it shows that it is possible. They are a nearly self contained energy curcuit now. Plants grown and refined in country. Our main problem is that it is not economically viable for farmers to grow crops for ethanol production while it is in the much poorer Brazil.

Brazil can do it because of one reason or actually one crop, Sugar cane, Cuba could do it too with their sugar cane crop as could most countries that can grow sugar cane. Brazil also has an issue with a certain northern oil producing neighbor that was also an incentive...

[XJ Dreamin']

Brazil is over 90% ethanol now. Sure it took a military government to impose the new standards on people over the last decade or so, but it shows that it is possible. They are a nearly self contained energy curcuit now. Plants grown and refined in country. Our main problem is that it is not economically viable for farmers to grow crops for ethanol production while it is in the much poorer Brazil.

Brazil is about 80% hydroelectric, although environmental concerns are putting a damper on further development. Environmental concerns have also been raised in relation to sugar cane production but it's hard to get that message past the 'Brazil is energy independent and you can be too' hype.

Transportation fuel consumption per capita in brazil is way low compared to the US. That fact, combined with an existing sugar industry make Brazil's ethanol production (the development of which cost some 10's of billions of dollars) viable when oil prices are high. On the other hand, when sugar prices spiked recently a shift in production from fuel to sugar threatened to leave all those ethanol fueled cars stranded. The Brazilian government responded to the shortage by reducing the gas/ethanol blend from 25% to 20%.

A final note for all you free market anarchist - The development of Brazil's ethanol industry was mandated by government (both military and elected) and subsidized by tax payers' dollars. Ethanol is still taxed less than gasoline. Don't expect to switch fuels without paying for it, one way or another.

Some growers in the US have got a greedy eye on some government subsidy prospects, but ethanol from corn could never replace oil imports in the US

[luvme88xj]

The U of MN is getting a grant to develope a conversion kit to modifie vehicals to run E85. Being that this is the state of ethinol plants. Driving past any one plant is like driving through a keg party...beeeeer

[Blaine B.]

It's garbage.

[bjoehandley]

I read a few weeks back that a company that makes home Bio-Diesel manufacturing kits is planning now selling a home ethanol kit brewing, complete with forms to fill out to be allowed to do so federally!

[seanR]

The State of Illinois just shut down all of the E 85 pumps....
http://www.wifr.com/news/headlines/4521611.html
Yes, It is a joke, it cost more money to produce than the fuel creates....

[Blaine B.]

Since its more corrosive, if you spill it on your paint will it eat through?

[WB9YZU]

Not entirely true...For oil, It must be drilled contained and shipped. Hydrogen, the main expense is to get a machine up and running. The machine uses solar energyt to seperate the hydrogen atoms from the oxygen in water...and it is completely renewable...I believe Hydrogen is the way to go, but oil companies and helpin with some "expenses" at automotive factories to help keep vehicles running on oil...

Hydrogen out of Water? Oh, why should it be so simple? I read somewhere that the Bush admin already took of that loop hole in 2002. Nope, 90% of the hydrogen used in Hydrogen powered cars must be made from a petrol product. Not really suprising as the most efficient way to make Hydrogen it to crack it from a Petro product.

The Bushies also killed the Hybrid program which was looking like it would start paying out. I have been very dissapointed by the hybrids I have seen on the road. Either they are just as efficient as a regular car, or they are little ecco-boxes. Nothing like the 100mpg Escort Wagon the U of WI had for a while (Made and raced by the SAE class) that had a 2cy Kohler for a backup charger. It was truely enjoyable to watch that car autocross on just battery.

Nope, if you want independence from Foreign or, do it the 70's way and brew up some good ol' Ethanol in a still. Mother Earth News did a whole series of articles on this back in the day, complete with plans and vehicle studies.They also worked up studies on how to use the byproducts, methane and mash.
As was pointed out, Brazil has been an alcohol producer for years. They grow sugar cane just for fuel, no side effects that I know of and the mash is used for feed.
Don't back Alcohol? How about Bio-desiel? Automotive desiels have come quite a ways down the evolutionary scale since the VW rabbit of the 80's. The Big trucks use the stuff like crazy and that market alone would help quite a few farmers!

IMO, we need to make the farm ecconomical to run again. By having an additional market for their products, we all benifit and less land will be sold to these land hungry developers.

Ron

[Blaine B.]

Too late on land development...

I'm all for a takeover of OPEC as they seem like they love "sticking it to the man"

[XJ Dreamin']

Lets all remember that the alternative fuels industry was not developed to make it more economical for us to drive, but rather to make it cleaner for us to drive. The primary goal of alternative fuels is cleaner air, not cheaper fuel.

I once saw a hippie VW bug with a bumper sticker that read 'Split Wood, Not Atoms'. Think about that for a minute. If everybody tried to burn wood, how long could that be sustained? Ethanol production is in the same ballpark. You can't produce enough ethanol by distillation to supplant all of the fuels needs of this country. If all of the corn production were turned to ethanol, it would still fall well short of eliminating petroleum imports.

[RichP]

Simple but then not everyone here understands everything

http://witcombe.sbc.edu/water/chemistryelectrolysis.html

http://www.hydrogen.com/faq.asp

And yes, I'm somewhat into it, anything that seperates me from dependency or simplifys my life.

I've actually hunted around for surplus O2/Hydrogen generators from navy surplus with little luck...

[Ghost]

Simple but then not everyone here understands everything

http://witcombe.sbc.edu/water/chemistryelectrolysis.html

http://www.hydrogen.com/faq.asp

And yes, I'm somewhat into it, anything that seperates me from dependency or simplifys my life.

I've actually hunted around for surplus O2/Hydrogen generators from navy surplus with little luck...
WOW! That is some very good info. I remember reading about that 750hl when we use to get the BMW magazine. From what I understand they have been experimenting with it in fleets arround Germany.

[richasco]

Don't forget that it absorbes water and that is a whole new can of worms to deal with.

[XJ Dreamin']

Simple but then not everyone here understands everything

http://witcombe.sbc.edu/water/chemistryelectrolysis.html

http://www.hydrogen.com/faq.asp

And yes, I'm somewhat into it, anything that seperates me from dependency or simplifys my life.

I've actually hunted around for surplus O2/Hydrogen generators from navy surplus with little luck...

I saw a story, probably on CNN American Morning (I never have any luck seaching CNN.com, so I haven't been able to confirm this) about a gentleman in the Northeast, I think, who has set up a hydrogen extraction/storage/fuel cell system for his home. the story mentioned that he got considerable funding through a grant from the local energy company.

I'm not a proponent of oil. I am a proponent of rational thought. Ethanol replacing oil is silly. Ethanol becoming cheaper than gasoline always requires that gas prices go through the roof. The more I look at the issue of energy in general, the more I like hydrogen. Generators are available and should become more affordable as time passes. Does NASA have a surplus store? :D

I was wondering: If you collect the water coming off your fuel cell and return it to the fueling center, could you get a credit off your next fill-up?

[RichP]

I was wondering: If you collect the water coming off your fuel cell and return it to the fueling center, could you get a credit off your next fill-up?

No but if you had your own H2 generator you could reprocess it for the Hydrogen. If the generator was onboard you would have a somewhat closed system, not to say a no loss system but one that you would have to only add water to as needed. The pictures of the generator from honda that I saw showed a wall unit about the size of two 72 scuba tanks with a box on top almost the same size and a hose to connect to the cars tank to transfer.
Like I said before, we have been cracking H20 for the past 40+ years to get oxygen for submarines, it's not a new science. Downside is the navy ones work at 3,000-5,000psi so I imagine you'd have to have the tanks hydroed every few years.
With the right setup you would not have to stop at a service station, you'd fuel at home, this is one of the sticking points economically, ones big business would not like at all, no long term income potential for the executives and stock holders..
If anything the current business models of every corp is to make you more dependent on them, not less.

[XJ Dreamin']

No but if you had your own H2 generator you could reprocess it for the Hydrogen. If the generator was aboard you would have a somewhat closed system, not to say a no loss system but one that you would have to only add water to as needed. The pictures of the generator from Honda that I saw showed a wall unit about the size of two 72 scuba tanks with a box on top almost the same size and a hose to connect to the cars tank to transfer.
Like I said before, we have been cracking H20 for the past 40+ years to get oxygen for submarines, it's not a new science. Downside is the navy ones work at 3,000-5,000psi so I imagine you'd have to have the tanks hydroed every few years.
With the right setup you would not have to stop at a service station, you'd fuel at home, this is one of the sticking points economically, ones big business would not like at all, no long term income potential for the executives and stock holders..
If anything the current business models of every corp is to make you more dependent on them, not less.

:D I was thinking of fueling up at a service station with that thought :D

But, more seriously - Cracking water is easy, but it does take energy. A generator/fuel cell setup on a car is not a closed system. As far as the water-gases-water, yes, but it takes energy to crack the water. That has to come from outside because you're using the exothermic production to move the car, not to generate more gas. At any rate, neither of us is talking perpetual here. We both understand physics. Of course, the Navy can crack as much water as they like. They're in the ocean, and they've got a fission reactor handy.

I would certainly save the water. That does represent, directly, fuel for the car. But, I would need to crack it again. Where would you get the energy for the generator if it is mounted in the car? Even a catalytic electrolysis needs some energy input.

Also, if you're generating at home, are you drawing from the grid or can solar panels keep up with your needs?

[RichP]

:D I was thinking of fueling up at a service station with that thought :D

But, more seriously - Cracking water is easy, but it does take energy. A generator/fuel cell setup on a car is not a closed system. As far as the water-gases-water, yes, but it takes energy to crack the water. That has to come from outside because you're using the exothermic production to move the car, not to generate more gas. At any rate, neither of us is talking perpetual here. We both understand physics. Of course, the Navy can crack as much water as they like. They're in the ocean, and they've got a fission reactor handy.

I would certainly save the water. That does represent, directly, fuel for the car. But, I would need to crack it again. Where would you get the energy for the generator if it is mounted in the car? Even a catalytic electrolysis needs some energy input.

Also, if you're generating at home, are you drawing from the grid or can solar panels keep up with your needs?

Thats where a catylist converter could come in vs an H2O cracker that requires power from the grid or some other source. As for power demands, it's been too long since I've been around one and I don't have my sibs anymore to look up what panel fed them then I'd know what the voltages were for both units, we had two and would spare them off. If you had a plug in method to run an onboard converter vs a wall mount you'd just plug it in and fill the hydrogen tank again over nite. The cells that nasa uses generate power, they don't need any to run but may to startup, don't know. With a hydrogen internal combustion engine or a hydrogen generator w/electric drive you would be using power from the grid to make fuel. As for solar cells, depends how big your roof is I guess. Going by several manufacturers of solar shingles my southeast facing roof would require between 25-30 rows of shingles for me to turn a profit from PP&L, twenty rows to break even based on past consumption but with my daughter moving to philly full time and going to school and the other heading for boot camp in january I expect alot of bills are going to go down [food mostly, electric too], electric already dropped 18%. The cost to do those 30 rows of solar shingles and the 'box' to plug in to the meter is ~$9,000, payback is about 5 years, shingles are warrenteed for 20years. This may work into our plans on a new house in 2 years, we'll see.

[XJ Dreamin']

Thats where a catylist converter could come in vs an H2O cracker that requires power from the grid or some other source. As for power demands, it's been too long since I've been around one and I don't have my sibs anymore to look up what panel fed them then I'd know what the voltages were for both units, we had two and would spare them off. If you had a plug in method to run an onboard converter vs a wall mount you'd just plug it in and fill the hydrogen tank again over nite. The cells that nasa uses generate power, they don't need any to run but may to startup, don't know. With a hydrogen internal combustion engine or a hydrogen generator w/electric drive you would be using power from the grid to make fuel. As for solar cells, depends how big your roof is I guess. Going by several manufacturers of solar shingles my southeast facing roof would require between 25-30 rows of shingles for me to turn a profit from PP&L, twenty rows to break even based on past consumption but with my daughter moving to philly full time and going to school and the other heading for boot camp in january I expect alot of bills are going to go down [food mostly, electric too], electric already dropped 18%. The cost to do those 30 rows of solar shingles and the 'box' to plug in to the meter is ~$9,000, payback is about 5 years, shingles are warrenteed for 20years. This may work into our plans on a new house in 2 years, we'll see.

Certainly the cells don't need power. That's the exothermic side of the equation. That's the energy that moves the car, but that's why it's not available to crack more water. There is a catalytic generator, but it is only more efficient, not independent. So, you have to put energy into it somewhere and that's where the shingles come into play, generating gas at home while you're off driving around. Bring the 'exhaust' back home to get cracked again and you're down to just that energy to crack the water (plus whatever inefficiency is inherent in the car's drive line).

I haven't read anywhere, but I was wondering: What is the temperature of the water 'exhaust' coming off of a fuel cell? That's energy I wouldn't like to waste.

[JONNYD]

E85 is cheaper at the pump but it is a deception to make you think E85 is cheaper overall and that you should buy a flexfuel car. E85 costs more per gallon to produce than regular gas, and by adding Ethenol to gasoline it actually raises the price of gas. The fact that E85 is less than regular 87 at the pump is to get the public to accept it as a better form of fuel. If gas is $2.45 and, E85 should cost $2.60, but its always $0.10 cheaper for some reason. Buyer beware. Give it 2 years and E85 will cost more than 87.

[RichP]

E85 is cheaper at the pump but it is a deception to make you think E85 is cheaper overall and that you should buy a flexfuel car. E85 costs more per gallon to produce than regular gas, and by adding Ethenol to gasoline it actually raises the price of gas. The fact that E85 is less than regular 87 at the pump is to get the public to accept it as a better form of fuel. If gas is $2.45 and, E85 should cost $2.60, but its always $0.10 cheaper for some reason. Buyer beware. Give it 2 years and E85 will cost more than 87.

We don't have to deal with it in this area but what the gasoline retailers have done is quietly gotten together and set a price. EVERY SINGLE STATION in this immeadiate area is charging the same price, $2.39 9/10 per gallon. This is with stations that historically over the last 20 years I've lived here have had a typical spread of $.24 a gallon, I also found it interetsting that last nite I filled up in center city philly at the sunoco on walnut street for $2.39 9 a gallon, it was the same price on the turnpike where you usually get raped and at the 11 stations I passed further north off the turnpike on the way home. The single exception was this morning when I was in town, the Hess was $2.22 a gallon. The exceptions around here were the full service repair stations that really could not care less about pumping gas, their meat and potatoes is repairs not fuel, PA is a selfserve state BTW.
As far as E85, yea, you pay less per gallon but a gallon of E85 is about 20% less MPG than regular so you already pay more to drive 100 miles with E85 than 87 octane regular and thats even on engines built for E85 too. We're getting hosed again only more quietly this time... I normally pay $2.01-$2.10 in north jersey for gas. I know I'll be taking all my Blitz cans with me on thursday or friday when I need to go down there again, it will save me about $18 bucks..

[8Mud]

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2006/060831.htm

Just saw a program on german TV the other night. Turning straw into gold.
The process was simple, mostly mechanical with some catalyst required. The end product is synthetic gas, free of most all pollutants. The byproducts of processing can mostly be returned to the soil. Synthetic fuel won't help much with the CO2 problem. But sure could help with the oil imports and deficit spending.
If they could produce it for pennies on the gallon, I doubt the price would go down any. Any alternative fuel will likely be marketed to maximize profits.

[jdogg4]

I think it's a total con in the way they are marketing it. The stuff kills performance less MPG and isn't that much cheaper than gas not here in CO that is. The only good thing is the burning cleaner part of it. One guy at the shop here ran it for 3 months counted up his fuel records and was forking out 20 bucks more a week on fuel on that E85 that gas. 5% savings at the pump per visit maybe, but if you have to visit the pump more often than thats not saving.

Now I wouldn't hate the stuff so much if they told you that up front, but they were pushing it as better performance better gas milage and cheaper along with burning cleaner. I don't think I would be so ticked off about it or anti E85 you know.

[Darky]

The big thing is that yes it burns cleaner, but it also supports American farmers instead of foreign oil and lowers our dependence on said foreign oil.

[jdogg4]

How is it that we keep loosing farm land. If they plan on going all E85 we don't have enough land to grow the crops needed to make this stuff. That and between loosing land to grow the crops and the Gov. not helping out the farmers and them selling out the land I don't see the whole E85 plan working. Shipping corn in from Can. or over seas isn't going to help us break away from foreign support on fuel issues. Good Idea poor plan and execution of this.

[lilredwagn]

The big thing is that yes it burns cleaner, but it also supports American farmers instead of foreign oil and lowers our dependence on said foreign oil.
Only by a hair. Any process with a negative EROEI (energy return on energy invested)raises our dependence on foreign oil. E-85 may or may not have a negative EROI, sepending on who you look to for figures.

The farmers make money yes, but they do so by using chemicals and equipment which all use petroleum in their manufacture or application. The most optimistic figures indicate that the end result is that for every gallon of E-85 someone pumps into their flex-fuel vehicle, a fair portion of oil has been used to produce it.

The people who want you to believe that ethanol is a positive thing would estimate that a little more than half of a gallon of oil goes into every gallon of ethanol.

More conservative (and I don't mean politically) studies have suggested that for every gallon of E-85 you pump out, 1.2 gallons of oil were used to produce it.

It may make for cleaner air (which is not a bad thing), and it may keep farmers fed (which may not be a bad thing), but it will in no way ever make a dent on our demand for petroleum products.

[SBrad001]

Only by a hair. Any process with a negative EROEI raises our dependence on foreign oil. E-85 has a positive EROI, but only barely. The farmers make money yes, but they do so by using chemicals and equipment which all use petroleum in their manufacture or application. End result is that for every gallon of E-85 someone pumps into their flex-fuel vehicle, about 7/10 of a gallon of oil has been used to produce it. It may make for cleaner air (which is not a bad thing), and it may keep farmers fed (which may not be a bad thing), but it will in no way ever make a dent on our demand for petroleum products.

If that was true then how do you explain Brazil's independence from foreign energy suppliers?

[lilredwagn]

If that was true then how do you explain Brazil's independence from foreign energy suppliers?
1. As mentioned earlier, Brazil extracts their ethanol from sugar cane, not corn.
Took a quick google and I don't know how the WP stands up as a reliable source, but their editor seems to be ok with the idea that cane ethanol is about 8 times more "efficient" than corn ethanol.
*http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/19/AR2006081900842_2.html I suspect I could find less optimistic numbers, but there is apparently a very large difference between the two crops.

2. Lots of cheap manual labor.
3. Brazil has their own oil reserves.

It's probably worth noting too, as jdogg4 alluded to, that if we converted every piece of farmland in the US - including every acre we use to produce all our other food crops - to corn, we would still fall almost 25% short of being able to produce enough corn to fuel all the vehicles on our roads.

[Blaine B.]

Why can't the farm vehicles run on e85?

[lilredwagn]

Why can't the farm vehicles run on e85?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EROEI
http://healthandenergy.com/ethanol.htm

[motorcityxj]

Hydrogen out of Water? Oh, why should it be so simple? I read somewhere that the Bush admin already took of that loop hole in 2002. Nope, 90% of the hydrogen used in Hydrogen powered cars must be made from a petrol product. Not really suprising as the most efficient way to make Hydrogen it to crack it from a Petro product.

The Bushies also killed the Hybrid program which was looking like it would start paying out. I have been very dissapointed by the hybrids I have seen on the road. Either they are just as efficient as a regular car, or they are little ecco-boxes. Nothing like the 100mpg Escort Wagon the U of WI had for a while (Made and raced by the SAE class) that had a 2cy Kohler for a backup charger. It was truely enjoyable to watch that car autocross on just battery.

Nope, if you want independence from Foreign or, do it the 70's way and brew up some good ol' Ethanol in a still. Mother Earth News did a whole series of articles on this back in the day, complete with plans and vehicle studies.They also worked up studies on how to use the byproducts, methane and mash.
As was pointed out, Brazil has been an alcohol producer for years. They grow sugar cane just for fuel, no side effects that I know of and the mash is used for feed.
Don't back Alcohol? How about Bio-desiel? Automotive desiels have come quite a ways down the evolutionary scale since the VW rabbit of the 80's. The Big trucks use the stuff like crazy and that market alone would help quite a few farmers!

IMO, we need to make the farm ecconomical to run again. By having an additional market for their products, we all benifit and less land will be sold to these land hungry developers.

Ron

its not our job to social engineer. This is america. Whats better for a farmer .... he knows, whats better for a family in the city they hate maybe its buying a home with nice yard, low crime, and low taxes in a new sub. New subs mean affordable housing. From your rant you sound to be more than a little leftist, so i would hope you are all for affordable housing for the middle class and even poor folks. Granted they dont build new homes for poor folks, they build them for upper middle class and middle class and that creates afforable housing for poor folks or lower middle class. Sorry to get off topic but that al gore stop urban sprawl shit drives me NUTZ !!! It does nothing but help people who are already in the real estate market, DOESNT help farmers cash in on their land rich cash poor business, and makes liberal hippies feel all warm and fuzzy inside like they did a great job engineering everyone elses live. Stoping urban sprawl is the wet dream of limosine liberals who dont understand economics or live in the real world.

If people were not hungry for homes the developers wouldnt even be in business much less "land hungry" which you could just as easily call "job creation hungry".

Rant over